Hell Bent

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  • #51305
    ichabod @ichabod

    @pedant   Not “a woman” but this specific woman, with all the wagon trains of baggage behind her, the grief, the rage, the unspoken pain, driving her to a moment when she misses that one little detail… And then she faced it like a boss.  And then gets regenerated.

    Bravo!  Exactly.  I find on various discussion sites that it’s the Clara-haters (and/or Moffat denigrators) who just can’t see any of this, their loss.  Hatred = blindness: it distorts reality, and so is in the long term dangerous to the hater as well as to the hated.

    @puroandson  PuroSolo  Hell Bent was drama and space opera buffa (comedy) as its best: genuine, poetic and bathetic.

    Oh, nicely put — thanks!

     

    #51339
    Missy @missy

    @ichabod

    We ignore the Clara and Moffat bashers on here dont’ we? I tend to feel sorry for them.

    Both Heaven sent and Hell Bent are superb on my book.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #51524
    dailyboother @dailyboother

    dailyboother.com a new social media web site.

    #51526
    dailyboother @dailyboother

    Please go to dailyboother dot com and like the Dr. Who video posts I posted. I have some haters that are trying to dislike and I need you fellow fans to support. Thanks for your help…!

    #51688
    Anonymous @

    I don’t know about you guys, but this episode is my fav.

    #51689
    Anonymous @

    I’m kinda new here btw. I just gotta say that episode was done right. Excellent writing. A real tear jerker.

    #51696
    winston @winston

    @d-i-yana    Hello and welcome to the site. It is fun here and has so much to offer us Whovians. Have fun exploring. Hell bent was an excellent episode that I loved. I will watch it again and again I’m sure. Good writing and great acting makes this one of the best.

    #51697
    Anonymous @

    @winston

    Thank you so much for the welcome! I’ve been reading the posts on this wonderful forum for a while now, and I’ve decided to join in.

    This season has turned out to be my favorite. The finale was just as amazing as the rest of the episodes. Moffat did not disappoint. I always enjoy his writing. The music in this season was also fantastic. The emotion throughout was beautiful.

    This was a deserving send off for Clara who was one of my favorite companions by the end.

    There was so much packed into this episode, but I have to say, I loved that the Doctor finally has his Sonic back.

    #51698
    ichabod @ichabod

    @di-i-yana  I have to hold back a bit on what’s my favorite, until I wind back to S8 and then run on up to current, probably this summer . . . need some of the perspective that time and absence provide.  I do still see the pairing of CapDoc and Clara as particularly rich and successful, with its dips and doodles and miss-steps etc.  I still see it as a great adventure story that’s also a great love story (on levels deeper than the usual and therefor much more interesting) that does something almost unthinkable for “family programming” that includes kids in its audience: it takes love through some strange and often tortured gyrations and then pushes it to the place where it’s grown as strong as ever, but also increasingly impossible to maintain, and so it is voluntarily ended.  It’s wisdom a deux, rather than the folie a deux of shared suicide or even the prolonged heaven/hell of Heloise and Abelard, say.  Two enamored adults take a look at the mounting consequences of their own actions, and agree to step away from the brink and go their separate ways, at high personal costs to both of them.

    I’m trying to think of other examples of something like to this in fiction.  So far, not finding . . . memory is asleep.  Anyway, I think we’ve seen a grand achievement here.

     

    #51699
    Anonymous @

    @ichabod

    That is a good point you brought up with the relationship between Clara and the Doctor. I’m a writer, and I’ll have to keep that in the back of my mind if it ever becomes useful for a future story.

    That also reminds me how much I think Capaldi’s Doctor has developed since Season 8. He and 11 are tied as my favorites right now. I hope he still has a few more seasons to show his true character.

    Some other favorite seasons of mine are 5 and 4. From what I’ve read, Season 6 isn’t as popular, but I quite enjoyed the River and Silence story arc in that one.

    #51701
    Anonymous @

    @d-i-yana

    Welcome to this great site -sorry I didn’t see you before. I’ve been sort of/barely lurking, as it were.

    You bring up some relevant points regarding the nature of Capaldi’s development over time. I felt that he nailed it as soon as he stepped into his doctor ‘garb’ and particularly in Listen and the finale to the 2015 season up against Missy and her cybermen. His ‘I’m an idiot in a box’ speech was glorious to behold -just as good as Mat Smith’s appearance in The Pandorica and later, in the Akenaten episodes.

    PC clearly has more exposure (compared with Smith as a relative ‘newbie’ at that time) and experience and can handle a variety of strategies and character positioning. For me too Season 5 with Smith was my favourite. If I feel down or depressed, I pull out those wonderful resonating stories and I never fail to smile. Certain episodes last year had that same effect as did the crazy but wonderful episodes of Season 2014.

    Still, I’m on the wrong thread here and will be modded off any sec. I should add, therefore, that I’m a real lover of both Hell Bent and Heaven Sent. For me, the 2 parters in this season worked exceedingly well to develop various characters and invited us to engage with their personal losses and victories. To me, the essence of any show -whether it’s about monsters or sci-fi – is the charisma of the characters and the way they amass their strengths and connect with each viewer on a very personal level. Hell Bent and HS did that for me as did the episodes of S5.

    Anyway, hope you enjoy reading thru our threads and checking out the Fox Inn for all sorts of funny conversations. The music thread is fantastic as @whisht, @arbutus and other members provide us with some terrific musical moments to lighten our days. Your Summer is approaching -depending on your location! I’m in Oz and whilst Winter is supposedly around the corner, it’s still about 32 degrees Celsius and the air con is cranked up

    😈

    Kindest, PuroSolo (Son is at school today doing a science exam -better him than me)

    PS: @dailyboother Don’t worry about the haters as you call them. Youboob wouldn’t exist without them. Chin up 🙂

    #51707
    Missy @missy

    @d-i-yana

    Hello there and welcome to the Whovian Sanctum. *waves*

    It’s one of mine. Heaven Sent is my all time favourite, both the script, acting and music.
    Face the Raven and Hell Bent are next.

    cheers,

    Missy

    #51708
    Missy @missy

    @puroandson

    If you needed my approval, which you do not, you’ve got it anyway. I agree with evrything you say, especially about watching an episode when/if depressed.
    Not so sure about Hell bent being a soother, but Husbads most certainly is.

    End of threadnap.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #51720
    TheDentistOfDavros @thedentistofdavros

    @d-i-yana hello nice to see another new face!

    Series 9 is definitely high up on my list (new series only that is!) though I’m not sure it can beat Series 5 and is probably joint with Series 8 for me!

    As for Hell Bent I’m sorry to say that I found it rather a disappointment following on from the perfect Heaven Sent but then I’ve rewatched Heaven Sent numerous times and am yet to rewatch Hell Bent so I could be surprised on a second rewatch and I keep hearing the amount of praise both episodes get on this forum so maybe I’m wrong about it and it’s time for me to give it a second chance! Who knows eh?

    Anyway hope to hear more from you and any others who decide to join up!

    #51727
    Missy @missy

    @thedentistofdavros

    I think that an episode can take people different ways. Where some of us may love the episode, another can hate it, another can be indifferent.

    Like you, I have watched Heaven Sent more times than the other episodes in series 9, I find it bewitching.
    However, Hello Bent must be amongst the most charming and gruelling ‘goodbye’ episodes I have ever seen.

    It simply depends on the individual. Do give it nother chance.

    As for a favourite series, from Christopher Eccleston, to Peter Capaldi, I have loved them all – with the odd epi exception. I must admit that 8-9 are at the top of my superb list

    Cheers

    Missy

    #51742
    TheDentistOfDavros @thedentistofdavros

    @missy I think I shall rewatch it but I’ll have to wait until I can get the series 9 box set as I recorded Heaven Sent and yet didn’t record Hell Bent!

    Yes we all have individual tastes and different favourites and even our own tastes and favourites can change!

    #51743
    Missy @missy

    @thedentistofdavros

    The box set is a must to a true Whovian – if one can afford it. I save money every week for my ‘DVD’fund.

    Loads of extras and of course, The Husbands of River Song.

    Hope you get the set soon.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #51771
    TheDentistOfDavros @thedentistofdavros

    @missy

    I know I really should get the box set but for the past few years I’ve been trying to complete my classic series collection (not many left to get) and I’ve actually been neglecting the new series box sets in fact the last one I got was series 6 but I have recorded series 7 and bought the Day of the Doctor (obviously). What puts me off buying them straight away is that for the price of one box set I could probably get quite a few classic DVDs! I might wait until the price comes down or get it for Christas! Who knows but I know that I have to get series 8 and 9 because they are just great!

    #51774
    Missy @missy

    @thedentistofdavros

    Classics a? Which ones have you got, I too have a fair few.

    Perhaps on another thread though. The TV shows maybe?

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #51777
    Anonymous @

    Hi

    I really like this episode I think it was really good

    I am new here btw

    RUCBARM

    #51779
    Anonymous @

    @rycbarm

    I’m really glad you did! And welcome to the site. Hope you have a great time here.

    Perhaps On the Sofa section you can mention who your favourite Doctor is? That’s always a great way to begin conversations too.

    Kindest,

    Puro and Son

    #51780
    Anonymous @

    @rycbarm

    I’m really glad you did! And welcome to the site. Hope you have a great time here.

    Perhaps On the Sofa section you can mention who your favourite Doctor is? That’s always a great way to begin conversations too.

    Kindest,

    Puro and Son

    #51781
    Anonymous @

    yep I broke d’innernet, innit?

    #51783
    KBranagh @kbranagh

    Recently i saw “Hell Bent” (three times)
    This time we are very near to perfection. (I think) i found my new favourite Who episode..even better than “Dark Water”.
    “Hell Bent” maybe warp the sense of hope and the final message of “The Day of The Doctor” and changes again the rules like Moffat’s tradition but remains an impressive and very deep hour of television.
    I like the Moffat approach to this finale, the opposite of what i expected after the ending of “Heavent Sent”…. not an epic and action conclusion but a very intimate and touching finale all dedicate to the characters with still a lot of emotional moments….the heart of the episode is not Gallifrey but again the Clara-Doctor relationship..i loved that.
    At this point, i never expected to see the real Clara again, i had lost all of my hopes, the opening credits at the diner with her and the Doctor playing the Clara theme…wow that was a twist. Another Moffat brillant and twisted idea to bring her back.
    I like the Ashildr interpretaton about the hybrid…maybe there are two hybrid but i have a better theory, the hybrid is not the combination of the Doctor and Clara together..the hybrid is born only in the final scene…Clara and Ashildr= the true hybrid..  that is a very danger combination, i want the spinoff now! awesome ending…reminds me a lot the Doctor’s daughter final moment in the season 4.
    The screwdriver is back oh my god! Just now that i started to loved the glasses…but maybe he can use both.

    So… like i said,very near to the perfection, the only thing…maybe i wanted a little more Gallifrey stuff in the first part.

    Congrats again to Moffat for this amazing season and also to Rachel Talalay…wonderful director! her work on “Hell Bent” is very similar for the tone at “Dark Water”.

    #51795
    Missy @missy

    @puroandson

    *Smirk*

    Cheers – innit!

    Missy

    #51796
    Missy @missy

    @kbranagh

    Heaven Sent is my favourite of the two, but the loving sense of loss and sadness is heart breaking.

    I don’t see how Clara and Ashildr can be the hybrid though. Clara is human – but not a Time Lord, and Ashildr is also human and inmortal, but not a Time Lord.
    To speak truth, I’m not at all sure who the hybrid is/was. My money is still on the Doctor, they haven’t really gone into his past and parentage have they.
    Still, Time will tell, Who nose

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #51925
    KBranagh @kbranagh

    @missy
    The hybrid can be anything, like the doctor said in this episode.
    Eventually and with time, Clara and Ashildr could turn against Gallifrey! Who knows.

    Another three questions/curiosity guys:

    1) The Time Lords meets the Doctor (for the first time) after “Day Of The Doctor” only four billions years in the future…so this was the last time for Gallifrey and Time Lords on the show?

    2) Who really gave the rigeneration energy to Smith in Trenzalore? Rassillon and counsel of Gallifrey?

    3) After 4 billion years, why the time lords are exactly the same and with the same faces and the same rigeneration of “the day of the doctor”? After 300 years at trenzalore with the same face the Doctor he had becomes really old.

    Ps. Sorry again for my bad english.

    #51927
    DalekTor @dalektor

    @kbranagh

    For the third one: Maybe Rassilon put the confession dial in a pocket dimension where time ran at a different speed, so it was 4 billion years where the dial was, but only a couple months or so on their end?

    I mean, the Time Lords can canonically create other dimensions (IE Tardis Interiors) and they are TIME Lords, so maybe it’s possible?

    For the first one: No idea. I’m not the BBC.

    For the second one: Ah, a mystery! Although it was probably just Rassilon. Still, future writers might try to pick up the thread.

    #51975
    Missy @missy

    It could be that the supreme council realising just how important the Doctor was, talked/voted Rassilion into extending his regenerations?
    Just a thought.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #52011
    KBranagh @kbranagh

    Thank you guys for the anserws.
    In one point of the episode Rassillon said “How many regeneration did we grant you?” maybe this solve the point 2.

    Guys, in “Hell Bent” there is another Moffat’s joke about a woman time lord. I think that after Capaldi we’ll see finally a Woman-Doctor.
    Opinions?

    #52012
    Anonymous @

    @kbranagh

    If we do get to see a female Doctor soon, I hope to see Lara Pulver get the role. I think she would do an amazing job as the Doctor. It isn’t about gender; it’s about how well someone can play the character.

    #52014

    @kbranagh

    1). It is 4bn years from the Doctor’s PoV – but Gallifrey is hiding at the end of time, so clearly they had choice of when they went after escaping whatever they escaped from; from their PoV an unknown amount of time has passed;

    2). The Time Lord’s as clearly stated by Rassillon before trying to execute the Doc.

    3). See 1.

    maybe i wanted a little more Gallifrey stuff

    It was all Gallifrey stuff in the first half!

    Note also that you got a massive amount of backstory and insight into Gallifreyan society with 4 simple words: “They’ll kill you”.

    #52017
    Missy @missy

    @theconsultingdoctor

    It is gender for me. The Doctor, should ba a male in my opinion.
    However, if it was absolutely necessary to have a female Doctor, Lara Pulva is a great choice.

    I see you are also a Sherlock admirer – meet another one. *grins*

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #52026
    Anonymous @

    @missy

    If you want to talk about Sherlock, do you want to head over to the Sherlock Special thread?

    Usually, I would agree with you on the gender thing. He has always been the mad man with a box, and I think that has become a big part of his character. But as you put it, if there had to be a female Doctor, I vote for Lara.

    #52051
    Missy @missy

    @theconsultingdoctor

    I’ll nip over shortly. My other passion, after DW and Sherlock, is Merlin.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #52439
    Juwho @juwho

    I have been watching this 2parts épisode a hundred Time, at least. The best. Capaldi is astonishing.

    I really love Clara not dying and having adventures. One thing, I was wondering about her Tardis. It is supposed to be the Doctor’s Tardis, as he was the first Time Lord to pilote it. If I remember old episodes, the Tardis can’t fly without a Time Lord or the bond with them. I would love to know if Clara Tardis is still linked with the doctor to fly time and space. And I can’t imagine “Sexy” not being aware of her sister. Will be great to have answer in season 10.

    #52852
    MissRori @missrori

    Hi, I’m a newbie!

    I liked this episode more when I saw it back in December, but over time, I’ve been rather troubled by a major shortcoming of the story: Namely, that <i>only Clara</i> treats a poor, insane, bereaved torture victim with any measure of kindness or compassion for his pain.  The Drylanders treated him kindly, but it doesn’t look like they were having heart-to-heart talks about bereavement with him.

    Basically, the Time Lords and Ohila were so lacking in compassion for his recent losses and hideous torture and mental breakdown that part of me wanted to see him prove ’em all wrong and get what he wanted — perhaps his true love proving powerful enough to hold the universe together.

    Failing that, I would have preferred an ending in which Clara just returned to her death ‘cuz she has to at some point, and the Doctor expects the Time Lords to punish him — but as he showed compassion to so many others this season no matter what they did, they and Ohila treat him compassionately for his returning to the light, to make up for how wickedly he was treated.

    Or maybe we could have had the ending we did, followed by a brief epilogue on Karn.  The Doctor turns up again to talk to Ohila, but they just share a long, long, hug…what a beautiful ending that would have been — healing and forgiveness.  A beautiful bookend.

    Why didn’t the Moff do that?  I still like the episode fine enough, and loved the Christmas show afterward, but all this seemed like a huge missed opportunity.  Anyone agree that my Karn epilogue would have been great?

    #52853
    Anonymous @

    @missrori

    Well you said it yourself…. we could have had the ending we did. 🙂

    I believe the way it was written perfectly indicates the way it can be read -if that’s the way you want to.

    btw, welcome to the Forum -good to see you and read your ideas.

    I’m  a bit of a Moffinator and thought  the final episode was handled with superb effectiveness: as the boyz houselady says: “they’ll kill you”. I think enough was said for an intro to Gallifrey just as Ohila, walking into the high council room says; “he doesn’t blame Gallifrey, he blames you.” I think that (ostensibly) was the hug -not that the sisters were into hugging, per se -not with a war doctor or any other kind. 🙂

    Kindest,

    Puro and Son.

    #52856
    MissRori @missrori

    Hi, thanks for the welcome!  🙂

    I’m a little unclear on your comment — are you saying that my idea of an epilogue in which the Doctor goes back to Karn, and he and Ohila mend fences and he’s finally shown compassion by someone else, actually happened?  If that’s the case, why wasn’t it shown onscreen?

    Come to think of it — why doesn’t he just go back to Gallifrey now that he knows the way and clear things up?  What can they hold against him?  Who wants to be the guy who condemns a poor old hero to death over the actions he took when he was mentally unstable thanks to torture…torture they can be seen as responsible for (since nobody tried to free him from the dial)?  Way too many holes in the ending there.  Perhaps this year’s Christmas special will focus on Gallifrey and getting things patched up.

    #52857
    Anonymous @

    @missrori I didn’t see any holes at all imo. It’s a question of allusion and metaphor which is the most effectual way of dealing with the content. No, obviously Ohila didn’t ‘hug’ the Doctor (he aint a hugger in this iteration) but she understood him -better than the high council ever seemed to. That’s the look that passes between them at the beginning of the season and at the end. A lovely cycle.

    He doesn’t need Gallifrey -he “went the long way round” and whilst he loves the people he’s not in favour of the hierarchy.  Mind you “any actions he took when he was mentally unstable”? What actions?   🙂

    You mean stealing the human retcon? I think – as ‘they’ took Clara (via The Shadow) and would still want to ‘get to’ him (admitted in script)- this would foretell  the Doctor mustn’t return to Gallifrey, or worse, if Clara retains her memories the Council, could, one day, locate her.

    Best she forgets: it’s a comedic ending (in the traditional Greek). Maybe check the earlier responses from the first few pages of this thread. Hope this helps -I haven’t seen it in a long time!

    Kindest,
    puro.

    #52858
    Anonymous @

    also they are still concerned about the prophecy -more correctly the algorithm and so their fear of The Hybrid (over which they were willing to torture him and this despite his actions saving Gallifrey and allowing the Council to hide Gallifrey at the far end of the universe)  is still ‘awake’ to some extent.

    Would they kill him? Interrogate him some more? Best he doesn’t find out!

    #52868
    ichabod @ichabod

    @missrori  @puroandson  He’s never fared well on Gallifrey, has he?  His infrequent stops there are always dangerous for him.  Maybe he’s had enough of that kind of danger for a while, and just needs to get back to his ramblin’ ways asap, since that is what he and Clara have freed him to do by agreeing to part company.  The TLs are still anxious to retrieve Clara and dump her back in Trap Street, so they’re not exactly on his side, or hers.

    So it’s not surprising that he honors her command over trying to make terms with Gallifrey: “Go be a doctor.”  He serves their joint decision even though he can’t remember making it . . . Love it: heart; irony.  All that’s strong and solid about the Doctor.

    #52940
    TOSK @tosk

    The Doctor has created a new standard of rescue.

    #53007
    Missy @missy

    @missrori

    Hello there and welcome. I cannot fault the writing for the final three episodes of series 9.

    However, Heaven Sent stands very tall in my book, for both the writing and music.

     

    Missy

    #54386
    SeverusOswald @severusoswald

    This episode was so breathtaking and dramatic and it really kept me on my toes! All the actors were brilliant, and it the script was a work of genius! I think it was definitely one of the best New Who episodes ever. Peter Capaldi was just amazing. We really saw that darker side to the Doctor — after he’d lost his best friend and been trapped in the confession dial for so many years, he became almost not the Doctor any more. I loved the return of the Time-Lords, Me, briefly the weeping angels, and, of course, Clara. The end was both happy and sad and I think it was a fitting end for a wonderful companion.

    #54387
    SeverusOswald @severusoswald

    Also, I loved the general vibe the Doctor gets on Gallifrey. Like fear, respect and protectiveness all at once. It was the best possible combination of great writers, great directors and great actors. I loved it!

    #54405
    SeverusOswald @severusoswald

    Did anyone pick up on that music they played when the woman entered that barn place where the Doctor was? It’s the same music they played in The End of Time pt 2 when that mysterious Timelady person opened her eyes and looked at the Doctor. Do you know what I’m talking about?

    To those that do, does anyone know what that music as about? Is it just generally Timelordy music? Or ‘OMG, it’s the Doctor’ music? Or who even is that mysterious woman in The End of Time? Maybe she’s the Doctor’s mother! Maybe it’s ‘The Doctor’s Mother’ music?

    Does anyone know? Or even know what I’m talking about? Please let me know!

    #54408
    Anonymous @

    @severusoswald

    Hello there -it’s Puro here (the other one; not son).

    Yes, yes I do know!.

    in fact. I’m humming it now.

    I hate to ruin the buzz but it’s been used a few times even as early as Eccleston’s era. It’s the ‘generic’ Theme 1 of the Doctor Who Score (that’s how its labelled).

    Hope this helps.

    Doesn’t mean  you’re wrong though -it could well be. But it think she’s the Barn Lady. She is still called “the boys’ (plural) ‘mother’ insofar as she looks after them all. A type of boarding school if you will.

    Cheers!

    PuroSolo.

    #54419
    SeverusOswald @severusoswald

    Oh! Thanks, that’s very helpful!

    #54512
    MissRori @missrori

    Looking at these comments…I see where many fans found this ending satisfying, but I still feel a deep dissatisfaction with the end of the Doctor’s Series 9 arc (not counting the Christmas show, which I loved).

    Basically, the Doctor suffered so unjustly, for so long, and for no good reason…and he slaved away to get a happy ending for himself, enduring all the cruelty thrown at him.  Now, given that the Doctor has managed to reboot the universe and save Gallifrey when even he didn’t think it possible, there’s no reason he couldn’t have saved Clara…or better yet, others help him save Clara.  But everybody keeps being ungrateful to him instead of helping him do so.  Or, perhaps Ohila, the General, etc. might have shown him the compassion and mercy and forgiveness he shows to so many others, bringing that aspect of the arc full circle.  Bringing him out of the darkness and back to his best self with love and kindness.  (I also disagree that Ohila and the Doctor understand each other completely, because she does not accept that he is owed his happiness, that he was wronged.  Had there been an ending showing them reconciling that could have made a big difference.)

    In any case…after he gives up his chance at happiness and lets Clara go….why does he choose to keep being the Doctor in the end?  What he goes through in this story arc goes to show that nobody appreciates his work.  Nobody gives him a miracle when he needs it.  Nobody’s there for him in his dark time in the confession dial.  Ergo, nobody truly loves him.  

    Why should he keep helping this rotten, stinking universe when his life boils down to little more than loss and loneliness for his trouble?  One can say he simply feels it’s best to do right, but he gains no lasting, true satisfaction from it, certainly not enough joy to stave off the pain of everything he must give up to do so, including those he loves.  Joy is fleeting, sorrow forever.

    It’s all so Sisyphean…why should anyone do good, if they must face so much more sorrow for it than they would if they didn’t care about others?

    If the episode had answered that question, it could have made a world of difference…(sigh)  Your thoughts?

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