Kill the Moon
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5 October 2014 at 23:20 #33078
I have a new rule. Any episode that features the main cast in orange spacesuits for more than five minutes is one that I’m not going to like. And I didn’t really love this one. Probably my least favourite of this series.
But it’s not the the science — which I see is what’s exercising the finest minds BTL over at the Graun. Doctor Who is not science fiction, it’s fantasy. And it always has been. And is the moon being a giant’s dragon egg really that much more ridiculous than fish people? Caves full of giant clams? Towing a planet across the universe to use as a base? An alien intelligence that can only invade civilisations with a thriving plastics industry?
I admit I did find the general unpreparedness of the astronauts a bit much too. No guns and is that really the best team for the job. An old dodderer, an angry cynic and a Michael Jayston impersonator? I know the Earth was in trouble but really….
The spiders were a bit wasted too. As well as shout-outs to everything from Alien to Ark in Space to the Beast Below what this really reminded me of was the comic story The Spider God, although that was a lot more logical than this (one of my favourite of the comic stories actually). Can’t help feel that spiders were chosen as a shout-out to that. Although perhaps not.
But it looked great though. The moonscapes were very convincing and compelling I thought.
And Capaldi as ever was excellent. I’m loving his portrayal of the Doctor. And I don’t really have that much of a problem with his refusal to help at the end of the episode. It’s certainly not something that Smith’s, Tennant’s or even Eccleston’s would have done. Or probably the 2nd, 4th, 5th or even the 6th. But I think I could have imagined the 3rd doing it and I certainly could have imagined Hartnell’s Doc taking that stance.
What I’m not really buying is the abruptness of Clara’s estrangement from the Doctor. I can see that it’s going to be the exit strategy for her character and I’ll be rather sad to see her go as she and the new Doc have a good chemistry I think and I also think Jenna Coleman has been brilliant but Clara this year doesn’t seem to bear that much relation to the Clara of last year. If anything she should be the companion, including Amy, who would cut the Doc the most slack, having tip-toed through his entire timeline. I’m just not convinced that it’s likely that she would reject the Doctor and if she did, I don’t think we saw nearly enough provocation here.
Finally, loved Courtney. She seems to be being lined up as possible companion material but I’m not entirely sure she’d work on a long-term basis. But I’ve no objection to see her on a few more trips in the TARDIS. But we’ve seen a few possible replacement companions this year and I’m starting to get the impression that there’s a sense of being at a loss as to just who will fit with Capaldi. I’m not that surprised. It’s a tricky one and Jenna has done it well. I wouldn’t be surprised if they actually settle for a series of semi-regular companions for Capaldi next year, if Jenna is indeed moving on (as far as I’m aware there’s been no official announcement on that score yet.)
Something did strike me this week though that Courtney preferring ‘Miss’ to ‘Clara’ made me think of ‘Missy’ for a moment. Is Michelle Gomez’s character some aspect of a future Clara? The Governess-style of the two of them would make that fit. Is Missy some kind of dark reflection of Clara?
5 October 2014 at 23:23 #330805 October 2014 at 23:27 #33081Hello @melloyello (without the “w”s–very cool!)
Just when I was thinking of posting a comment that we needed more bonkers theories instead of (albeit well argued) critiques of the episode, along you come with a fabulous bonkers theory!
I suppose I could think of a counter-argument (along the lines that Mels supposedly grew up at the same time as Amy and Rory, and so would be in her 30s by the time this episode is taking place) but your bonkers theory is so great, that I am willing to ignore that!
Could it be…? Or is Courtney a sort of Mels substitute in Moffat’s mind?
But…but…let’s go back to the point that Mels/Courtney should logically be in her 30s if she grew up with Amy and Rory. Well, one one the things that bothered me in the episode was that the Doctor assumed Courtney was 35, then maybe…he was right!
I am liking your theory, @melloyello!
5 October 2014 at 23:31 #33082I’m not really sure what to think about this episode. The premise of Moon-as-egg was good, but there are a few things that really nag at me:
1. The bumbling, “third-rate”, astronaut. Why would anyone send him anywhere? It’s like he was actively trying to be a red-shirt. Stern-astronaut-lady-who-didn’t-react-realistically-at-the-Doctor’s-introduction didn’t, y’know, object to her comrade’s absence?
2. Stern-astronaut-lady-who-didn’t-react-realistically-at-the-Doctor’s-introduction. I’ve seen all After Gap episodes, and I still think her acceptance of the Doctor was too hasty and without issue. She reminded me, superficially, of Adelaide Brooke, from Waters of Mars, but was otherwise very different.
3. Shuttle from the United States crewed exclusively by people with British accents. Eh?
4. At first, when Courtney floated into the air, I thought “hm, gravity generator must have gone offline for that room”. Then I remembered that the Moon had abnormally high gravity, at which point… sigh. If the interior of the Moon had shifted that much, everyone would have felt the effect, what with the small distance between Courtney and everyone else.
5. I could accept the spider things as analogous to bacteria in a real-world organism, but it looked like they were being made out to be actual bacteria, as demonstrated by Courney’s killing of one with anti-bacterial spray. Sorry, can’t buy it. They’re too big and complex.
6. Moon dragon hatches, then immediately lays an egg that’s far too large for a thing of its size to lay. For one thing, with an egg of anywhere near that size, we would have noticed that the dragon looked… bloated. For another thing, are we being made to think that the new moon is the same size as the old one? Can a chick hatch and immediately lay an egg the size of the one it came out of? Not without some serious Time Lord-like technology.
7. The Doctor says something about the Moon being, what, 100 million years old? The Moon is actually thought to be billions of years old, yet no one said anything about the age he said it was?!
As I said, I like the premise. The execution just had far too many holes that really needed to be filled, even for a Doctor Who episode. The episode had potential, but I think I’m only going to take two things away from it: first, a what-if thought about the Moon-as-egg, because it’s entertaining/amusing; and second, Clara’s confrontation with the Doctor at the end.
5 October 2014 at 23:43 #33083@ mello-yello U know I like your idea about Courtney- wonder if those were her real parents at the parent night
but SM likes to play with anagrams – I figured out that Tasha Lem means the rebirth of Mel and I played with the name Courtney Woods and I so far came up with ‘yes u won doctor’ – hm ?? what shall we make of this ?
– This forum has made me a bonkerszoid ! lol5 October 2014 at 23:46 #33084waves at @scaryb
5 October 2014 at 23:47 #33085James-of-the-piscene-variety.
Welcome back, sir.
5 October 2014 at 23:47 #330868. I also had a problem with the vote. As others have mentioned, half of the Earth’s surface was made completely irrelevant in the decision. If that half (I didn’t notice while watching) included the biggest population areas, like oh, say, CHINA and AFRICA, then… whoops, Clara! But another issue, and the one that bothered me the most: shouldn’t the people have turned off their lights to keep the Moon dragon <span style=”text-decoration: underline;”>alive</span> instead of to kill it? Think about the people who didn’t hear Clara, or who couldn’t make up their minds — should we expect them to blackout their entire cities and countries in order to have a better chance of living through the crisis? It seems to me that the more difficult action on the voters’ part should be associated with voting for the more dangerous outcome. As it stands, suppose that no one actually heard Clara. They would be “voting” — by keeping their lights on — to let the Moon break apart and presumably kill them, or, at the least, make Earth less hospitable.
Sigh. Now that I’m itemizing my gripes with the episode, I’m realizing that, again despite its cool premise, this episode had really shoddy writing.
5 October 2014 at 23:51 #33087I seem to have enjoyed this a lot more than many other posters. had a WTF moment with the reveal of the moon as an egg but once you go with that there’s no problem… and it’s no more ridiculous than the whole premise of the show 😉
As @bluesqueakpip pointed out we don’t know all the science there is to know. (And I certainly don’t, so it probably annoys me less than those with a more sciencey inclination). For all we know the moon as an egg could have hatched and relaid an egg several times in earth’s history – humans just haven’t been around to see it. It causes short term (in earth lifespan terms) disruption to earth then everything settles down again.
The central dilemma is about finding out whether a lifeform is definitely evil/deserving of death or just blasting it to bits on first contact. While the Doctor does leave the humans to make the decision he has already well-primed them about what the “right” decision should be – all his talk about the excitement of a new creature. He puts his faith in Clara to make that decision, based on what he already knows about her. Sadly, but not unexpectedly, it’s only the 2 humans who have had experience of life beyond earth who are willing to make their own leap of faith. The lights going out was a shockingly depressing moment. The Doctor may or may not be lying when he says it’s a “grey area” – it’s not necessarily a fixed point but the future of mankind is changed by the decision. If they had chosen the other option and blasted the moon out of existence then mankind would have faced a very dodgy future. By choosing the leap of faith, they get a new moon and everyone lives. The Doctor sees the bigger picture, and for humans to “grow up” as a species they have to start to embrace a non humancentric view of the universe. It’s not all about us.
As several have pointed out, it mirrors the Doctor’s own experience in Day of the Doctor, but it’s also entirely consistent with all the Doctors’ view of the sanctity of life (inc 4’s “have I the right” in Genesis…) and abhorrence of the shoot first, ask questions later attitude.
Clara is annoyed for several reasons. Partly because she has just been pushed beyond what she feels are her limits – as Danny predicted last week. She feels she has been manipulated by the Doctor – and has been the cause of a major change in human history. She knows it was her remarks that pushed the Doctor on the journey, taking Courtney with him, and consequently into danger. But she’s also mighty pissed off that, like Courtney, the Doctor doesn’t explicitly acknowledge her as “special”. This Doctor is so much less demonstrative and verbal than his previous 2 incarnations. Perhaps, as @phaseshift suggests, it’s connected with going beyond his natural span of years. Or possibly he just doesn’t see the need to verbalise what he thinks is obvious.
5 October 2014 at 23:54 #33088Sorry for the long rambling previous post – that was the edited version, LOL.
Couple of short things to add –
@phileasf Re your comment about this universe not conforming to our reality because it was rebooted from Amy’s memories –
Post of the thread!
@juniperfish -Loved your comment: “Peter Capaldi’s worlds weary misanthropy with flashes of his hearts of gold peeping through”
6 October 2014 at 00:06 #33089I realize there are holes in my theory about Courtney being River. I want people to search and see if there
was established story of the little girl in the space suit, regen’ing into Mels. That would end my theory.
I can see the little girl regen’ing into Mels. I don’t have a problem with that. I can also see Courtney
regen’ing into Mels, if Courtney gets Vortex manipulators and going back into time and growing up with
Amy. Mels did seem overly confident the Dr was real. Was she waiting for the Dr. to show up? Courtney can
easily learn about Amy. And if later Courtney/Mels/River wants to kill the doctor, then all she has to do is
find Amy Pond, be her friend, the Doctor will show up. The one hole here was best stated by Tom Baker,
“How can you kill me in the past if I have lived in the future.” Well, she didn’t kill the doctor. IMO, River changed her
mind WAY too fast and saved the Dr’s life. Is the doctor going to attempt to counteract River’s programming while
she is Courtney.
Courtney hit a couple keys in the Tardis. Did any of you see her sending the Tardis off into space, trapping Clara and the Doctor
on the moon? That went through my mind. I consider her tapping a few keys very significant. Of what, I don’t know
other than she may want to learn to fly the Tardis later on.
6 October 2014 at 00:13 #33090You know that if it’s in the egg or outside it the mass is still the same right? So they go to a beach, right on the sandy shore. Where the massive tides are destroying the world and all life is threatened … and watch from the edges of the lapping waves… on the side of the planet facing the moon. Odd?
Yep. I was also thinking about the mass. Geez, I hope I don’t make #12 on this list. That would be very cheesey.
EDIT: Actually, I was only thinking about the mass in the context of the creature’s growth, but then I remembered that eggs contain all the matter that is needed to grow the organism before the egg hatches. Chickens ain’t mammals! So Seventhwheel, nice observation! I don’t think I thought about that bit during the episode.
6 October 2014 at 00:31 #33091Also, nobody at any stage, said that the newly laid egg was fertilised.
Alien biology, innit?
6 October 2014 at 00:34 #33092Some random thoughts –
The ramshackle nature of the “nuke expedition” – this is described as a private enterprise – it’s a thrown together crew of some of the last people who are willing to look outwards and try something, anything, cannibalising whatever remnants of space tech they can lay their hands on. Everyone else is trying to cope with the catastrophic effects.
The vote – no, it’s not exactly democratic but it’s a desperate attempt by Clara to avoid being the one who has to make the decision. She has less than 45 minutes to gauge public opinion. (And the lights have to go out for dramatic effect! Lights out and darkness reflecting that the choice is for death). In fact for humans to have any kind of future they need to let the creature live, but they don’t know that. Only Clara is in a position to make any sort of informed judgement – given her past experience of her travels with the Doctor, jumping into his timeline, the Moment etc. The Doctor clearly shows her what line to take before he disappears. But she resents her own lack of control of the situation, and the forced responsibility.
The moon dragon laying an egg immediately upon hatching itself – it’s a very rare creature in a very big universe. It makes a lot of sense that it doesn’t rely on sexual reproduction.
@melloyello Nice first post and theory. I suggested something similar (but not in so much detail) on the Deep Breath thread when we first met Courtney. (Which, given my hit rate on bonkers theories, makes it extremely unlikely! 🙂 )
Why hasn’t Danny had a trip in the TARDIS yet?
6 October 2014 at 00:39 #33093Anonymous @
@pedant you’re right. Jesus I just typed up a load of stuff and it got lost in universe.
Bugger. Now, look it wasn’t scientific and the naysayers are going nuts over this. So, maybe there is something odd happening but it is cool -can that be enough? It’s sci-fi for heaven’s sake. So, there’s a huge bacteria (not a bacterium btw), ok, that works, and it IS a moral decision as @scaryb states rather than an Historical and scientific one.
Loved @phileasf comments -an egg is because it was imagined so. Courtney as Mels -that came up in Episode 1 I’m sure. Possible? Yes. Likely? Nope.
I think the Doctor was mean and nasty to Clara. Did I like it. Just a bit. Was it fair (jumped into the Time Stream for him…)? Nope. I loved how the Doctor almost strutted about not at all caring about anyone else. Or that’s how it seems anyway.
He’s grown up. Do I like it? Yep. Resoundingly.
Kindest, puro.
6 October 2014 at 00:39 #33094Also, nobody at any stage, said that the newly laid egg was fertilised
Good point. And/or maybe these eggs lie dormant for millenia till something triggers their relatively sudden development.
(There are frogs in the Australian desert which can lie dormant for years, only emerging for a couple of days when the rains come. Then they go back to hibernation/suspended animation again till the next rains. But they have a helluva party for a couple of days!)
6 October 2014 at 00:48 #33095@jimthefish Yes. A lot of people seem to be of the opinion that the Doctor is somehow “crossing the line” in this episode. Interestingly, the part of his behaviour that I found dismaying was his treatment of Courtney, and while I could see that Clara was upset by that, I don’t think she brought it up in the confrontation scene. She was upset about being left alone to choose. And honestly, I actually had no problem with that. I could understand the Doctor feeling as if this were a time that humans had to decide for themselves their course of action. She was also angry because she felt he hadn’t been honest with her. But he said that he had been honest, so I guess it is for us to decide whether or not we believe him.
She was clearly upset and angry with the Doctor, but it was made clear by Danny that despite her words, she isn’t really done with him yet. Although Danny seems to feel that she will be (and I suppose I do too). But when it comes, I hope that it will be for a better reason. As Danny says, when she’s not angry anymore.
6 October 2014 at 00:48 #33096I keep leaving before I find the need to edit my last comment, and then I no longer have the option….
I know what bothered me about the mass thing: Eggs contain all the matter needed to grow the developing organism. Given that this is the case, how was it that the Moon suddenly started piling on the mass, which is what led to the astronauts’ mission in the first place?
Sorry, sorry. I think I’m done complaining now. :/ I just can’t get over how distant the actual episode was from its potential. Next week’s can’t come soon enough.
Edit: Whoops, never mind. One more thing. I suppose that since the creatures lay an egg as soon as they emerge from one, the egg wouldn’t be fertilized from the start. So, the Moon egg had presumably been fertilized quite a while ago. But how long ago had it started to rapidly gain mass? Was it something like 10 days? Ten something-or-other, I think I read/heard. Is it plausible that such a huge creature could undergo most of its growth in that short of a time span? Probably not, but at least it’s something I could overlook, unlike the content of the other points I’ve made.
Edit to the edit: The above edit still doesn’t tell us why the mass increases at all.
My mind is all over the place now. Apologies….
6 October 2014 at 00:51 #33097@scaryb I confess I was more caught up by the Doctor’s joyous expression when we learned about the egg, to be thinking rationally about whether it was believable as an egg. I loved how thrilled he was.
The lights going out was a shockingly depressing moment. You’re right. And maybe that was the point of including the “vote”.
6 October 2014 at 00:52 #33098My argument is valid and I have seen many people not only on this forum but others like it too. They also hate this latest episode because of that stupid notion the moon was actually any egg, and that they also do NOT like how the assistant’s character has become with her constant criticism of the Dr’s actions. Personally, I found that the creating storyboard has lost his way, as it appears there was two story lines that got mashed together because they didn’t what to do next to complete the episode.
Yes, the moon’s gravitational pull does have a great effect on the world’s Oceans which helps with flow warm & cold waters over the planet for ebb & flow of water!
Also, I do know that is Sci-Fi but you still need to have common sense but to make the moon an egg just goes beyond ridiculous and the Producer should have gone back to the storyboard writer to come up with a more plausible storyline than THAT thing!
Spider like creatures would have been far better as little babies to a Gigantic Mommy Spider that maybe wants a new feeding ground – Earth? I think that would have been a more plausible story line isntead NOT a giant like dragon that can lay an egg bigger than itself just after it’s born even a caterpillar needs to crawl before it can cocoon to fly. So, they could have alternatively made the creature much smaller instead say the size of one the BIG craters on the moon. This way they could say they are meteor craters but where the dragon like creatures broke out from???? Their story of the moon as the egg was far to ridiculous !
I have enjoyed the previous episodes but this one was VERY disappointing indeed – Goodbye Clara as you want to settle down with your fellow teacher, and you’re character has become very annoying in this episode very much lost, but the new Dr I do like very much including that he is Scottish!! 🙂
6 October 2014 at 01:00 #33099I didn’t think the Doctor was remiss re Courtney. He sends her to the TARDIS where he knows she will be safe. Then he turns his attention to the moral dilemma. (And yes @melloyello I liked when she pushes buttons on the control panel. I presume the Doctor has put the safeties back on 😉 )
@arbutus @jimthefish I think the Doctor is trying to teach his teacher, and she deeply resents not being the one in control. It’s the situation Danny predicted at the end of the last episode. I don’t think it’s been unsignposted tho. Clara’s stress has been seen to be building up, starting with Deep Breath, when her faith in the Doctor is clearly shaken at his regeneration – this isn’t cuddly, friendly, same age and human-seeming Eleven. Her double life is exhausting her, and possibly ageing her, and her boyfriend and the Doctor are clearly at odds in some very fundamental areas. What would Danny have done if he had been with them this time…?
I can also see Hartnell’s or T Baker’s Doctors playing this exactly the same way.
6 October 2014 at 01:01 #33100@serahni I really enjoyed what you had to say about the Doctor’s behaviour and Clara’s reaction to it. You’re right, I don’t think that Clara is altogether enjoying this new, less effusive Doctor. The previous incarnation made much of her, calling her “my impossible girl” and acting in various dramatic ways to save her life. This one makes rude remarks about her looks, disapproves of her boyfriend, and shows up on his own schedule, not hers.
But as you say, I don’t think this Doctor is as new a man as it seems on the surface. The writers have been at pains to include actions, attitudes, and actual lines that recall earlier Doctors. And a lot of the key underlying elements of the Doctor’s character are still here. We saw it this time in his unhesitating leap into the abyss, in his response to the new life he discovered, and in his ability to talk his way out of trouble by the force of his personality. And yes, Clara was in his time stream, but I’m not convinced that she really properly remembers any of that, so I don’t think it would help her here.
6 October 2014 at 01:01 #33101By the way, now we have spiders everywhere! Earth formed around a Racnoss ship, and the Moon’s bacteria are “spiders”.
6 October 2014 at 01:05 #33102@scaryb I hadn’t seen your latest when I posted the above. I absolutely agree with what you are saying here about Clara. And it’s a good point about Courtney, I noted that at the time when he sent Clara off to “get herself and Courtney safe”, and remember thinking, “See? Not so bad!” I had forgotten it.
6 October 2014 at 01:09 #33103@arbutus I agree, I think Clara’s memories of being in the Doctor’s timestream will be very hazy. Maybe he did a wee memory wipe as well after he carried her out.
@thebrainofmoffat Spiders everywhere – you’re too right! A monster one just scuttled across my kitchen floor!
6 October 2014 at 01:19 #33104@arbutus Haha yes, synchronicity 😉
I’ve said it before but this Doctor seems to be more pragmatic than 10 and 11. He understands that he can’t save everyone, and doesn’t torture himself about the ones he can’t save. But he couldn’t have been clearer in telling Clara which decision was the right one. As far as he’s concerned he’s been explicit. He doesn’t understand that she still sees it as a dilemma.
6 October 2014 at 01:33 #33105@scotsman418 look we generally don’t care about opinions on other fora -only this one, love. 🙂
I think the tides etc are affected by way more than the moon. I believe BoyIlion just did a 1300 word assignment on this 2 weeks ago.
Also, perhaps stop with the !!!! to make your point: you’re making it fine. Although, well, the moon as an egg? It’s a family show. Why I have to keep repeating this I don’t know. 🙂 Point is, you don’t sack a producer over something so incredibly funny, particularly if most of the children watching are loving it (no doubt there’s a ton of polling/researching). Also, as I said before, I think there’s probably a lot more going on here: I recall mentioning that it was “too odd” and possibly there is “a story in a story”. @serahni referred to this as well, as did others recently.
Did you like anything about it? Funnily enough, in earlier episodes, Clara has been fantastic: compassionate and kind in Listen and helpful and pragmatic in Into The Dalek. She goes nutso, once, and everyone has a hate on.
Blimey, puro.
6 October 2014 at 02:03 #33106My argument is valid and I have seen many people not only on this forum but others like it too.
Two things
1. I can’t see anyone saying your view is invalid. Protest too much yada yada.
2. Appeal to popularity is just about the most specious logical fallacy of the lot (a point rather ably demonstrated within this episode).
6 October 2014 at 02:05 #33107Quite – it is alien biology and we do not have enough information, nor is it germane to the theme of the show. If it ever become important I imagine Moff or a future showrunner will make something up.
6 October 2014 at 02:45 #33108I’ve been rather disappointed with the scripts with the new Doctor. Listen was okay, at least until the ending; Time Heist wasn’t bad, but the rest were rather weak.
Kill the Moon was easily the worst of the lot. Whoever wrote it seemed to steal the idea from an old Superfriend’s cartoon, and also has a poor grasp of Biology, Physics, and Geology. I’m willing to allow some suspension of disbelief, but this episode went way too far.
– the Doctor knew something was wrong with the moon’s gravity, by using a yo-yo, but he implied that they should be floating about all over the place. The moon has 1/6 the Earth’ gravity, so you could jump 6 times higher, but you would hardly be floating around.
– Moon as an egg. Old Superfriends cartoon plot, and what a silly concept.
– Moon’s gravity has increased. They imply this is due to the growth of the creature inside. Sorry, but that would just be parts of the moon changing into parts of the creature, and no change in mass would occur (high school physics). The moon would have to be sucking up the entire asteroid belt and then some to do what they are claiming.
– Giant bacteria look like giant spiders…not even close. Someone didn’t take high school biology.
– Previous expedition didn’t find any minerals? Rocks are made of minerals, and we know there are lots of rocks on the surface. Someone doesn’t know geology.
All in all a very poor first season for Peter. I hope the scripts start to get better.
Anyone who watched Bill Nye the Science Guy will know that the Space Shuttle isn’t powerful enough to reach the Moon, but I’ll let that one pass as it depends on the booster they use. Not sure how they intended to land though, since it is designed to land in an atmosphere, and crashing on the Moon with lots of nuclear warheads doesn’t sound like a well thought out plan. Were they implying the Doctor is psychic, knowing the future, or just remembering the future once events were locked in?
6 October 2014 at 02:47 #33109As @bluesqueakpip’s list suggests, we all have our own areas of touchiness. For some of us, it’s “For heaven’s sake get the science right!” For some of us it’s historical anachronisms, for some of us it’s “believable” character behaviour, and so on. Fair enough, actually.
Well said. This episode is about a moral dilemma which lies at the heart of Dr Who and usually is ignored. In many episodes one life must be sacrificed in order to save many. When convenient for the story the issue is ignored. AG Who is far less guilty on this score than BG Who. So for me, the silly science was less obtrusive than it is to a scientist. Likewise the historical inaccuracy of Robot of Sherwood bothered me more but I was able to overlook it because I have a soft spot for the equally anachronistic Erol Flynn movie. This is certainly history as drawn from Amy’s memories. I was hoping for an explanation of the fictional nature of history which seems to prevail in this series. I don’t think that is going to happen.
@jimthefish Good to have you swimming about in the discussion again.
I think the Courtney as Mels theory is knocked on the head by the inference that she grows up to be come the President of the United States or did I mishear that? I was very tired last night due to squabbling cockies outside the tent. (and they were much louder and ruder than those in the video probably because they were in the tree overhead, no doubt arguing over whether the moon really is an egg and if so what kind of bird laid it.) 🙂 I don’t think Courtney is set to become a full time companion simply for logistical reasons. Younger cast members require much more effort from a production view point. I am happy for her to be an occasional traveller as I thought she really did well in this episode and is showing some promise.
I too hope to see Danny in the Tardis but I have a feeling it might be without Clara because I have a sneaking suspicion, maybe triggered by all the mystery surrounding her continued tenure in the Tardis that something nasty is about to happen to her and he and the Doctor might have to team up to go on the rescue.
I think the one things that this Doctor has to learn is to say “sorry. Yes I was wrong” even though he begins is regen’ by remarking on past mistakes.
Cheers
Janette
6 October 2014 at 02:57 #33110@purofilion Hee hee. Yes, Arbutus Jr. was talking about that recently too. What would we do without our kids to tell us how things actually work! 🙂
@pedant If it ever become important I imagine Moff or a future showrunner will make something up. Indeed. Like running out of regenerations. Whether it means anything to regenerate into a face that has been on the show before. Things like that. 😉
@glenisterm I will freely admit that I don’t let science mistakes get in the way of my enjoyment of a story that I like for its own sake. I also get that this is a deal breaker for some others. But anyone willing to cite Bill Nye the Science Guy on this or any Forum gets a thumbs up from me.
6 October 2014 at 03:06 #33111@janetteb I have so far ignored that reference to becoming president of the US because it kind of flew by and it’s the kind of thing I usually catch up with on rewatching. But I’m pretty sure she can’t become president of the US without having been born there. Unless she was born there for some reason and moved back to the UK, I suppose. Or unless the show is implying that the rule will be changed.
As for the Doctor learning to apologize for being wrong, he would first have to believe that he was wrong. Which in this case, he clearly doesn’t. That may change.
6 October 2014 at 03:24 #33112I agree the Doctor wasn’t wrong in leaving Clara and the other two humans to make the decision about their own planet’s future though many fans do and so maybe it does require some explanation. I was thinking of the Courtney issue when I said that. He did not apologise for causing Courtney issues or what he said about her being “ordinary”. He did not explain that “ordinary” is a brilliant thing to be, however he does endeavour to made amends. Clara, it seems, still needs something more from him. She doesn’t understand why he left her to make the decision. To be fair explaining one’s motives to someone who is enraged is generally pointless however I doubt he will discuss it with her later when she is calm either, which again is perhaps more of a problem with portions of the audience who expect the Doctor to be the god like hero who fixes everything. My feeling was that the Doctor is faced with a moral dilemma which he feels unfustified in solving. It isn’t his planet, they aren’t his people that his choice would put at risk. He is acknowledging the limitations of his moral authority. He just doesn’t express it well. Yes the “taking of the training wheels” was patronising and unjustified and having been faced with a planet destorying choice, Clara was understandably angry and over emotional.
Given the time in which the decision had to be made asking the entire planet to turn on or off lights would not be possible however aknowledging that the whole planet was not able to vote would have added weight to Clara’s final decision to ignore the result of her request. The question was asked when she sought someone else to take responsibilty for the decision for her. In the end she accepts that responsibility. The Doctor wanted and expected that of her but he did put her in one hell of a place.
Cheers
Janette
6 October 2014 at 03:32 #33113@scotsman418 “that stupid notion that the moon was actually an egg”. Others hated it? Who? And who are these people who matter so much? Are you attempting authentication by association? Usually that’s not enough! And hating something? Come on, we’re grown ups here and ‘hate’ is far too strong and banal, anyway.
It’s great we have social media to discuss this stuff in detail but it leads to quick, poorly thought out, random comments about “bad story boards” and “sack the producer” -it’s like we haven’t progressed beyond “chop off his head”.
I’m not stating all this because of your own comments, necessarily, but comments in general which tend to be outraged rather than disappointed. At some point, we’re all disappointed about something within an episode or in an arc.
Whilst I was upset that the Doctor left Clara to make the decision I recall an earlier statement where it’s important to know when to be helpful and how, but when you don’t know either, it’s important to be harmless.
The Doctor was no longer underwriting Clara’s actions. He refused to have his provenance dictated by another group -for once.
I’m remembering that someone above (apologies as to whom -and I’ve read every comment at least 3 times!) referred to a possible mind-wipe for Clara once she emerged from the Time Stream: there was a Greek river of forgetfulness – the Poppies of Lethe -once the souls of the dead, or the near dead, tasted its waters they forgot their past lives including those they loved, worshipped and despised. Possibly the Dr, in regenerating, has tasted these waters but having two hearts, his memory is not (fully) in ruin but he’s desensitised nonetheless.
The more I think of this episode I see the modern parallels/metaphors of trust, loneliness, needing to be seen as special, fright at being given free rein to act responsibly -or not, having women make the decisions, showing attempts at democracy etc…This was part of what the story was about -eggs, moons, didn’t matter as much. A nice parable instead with super-funny moments causing every forum to go nuts. I’m sure this was all predicted by producers etc… 🙂
@seventhwheel you have a whole debating team in your head! 🙂 Good stuff. @mtgradwell the same and @thebrainofmoffat also! I think I may have mis-spelled MTGrad…. (can’t go back a page at this stage)
welcome to @melloyello I agree with @blenkinsopthebrave as to the cool name -and some Bonkers ideas already 🙂 Who-ho-eee!
Kindest, puro
6 October 2014 at 03:34 #33114@thebrainofmoffat – 7. The Doctor says something about the Moon being, what, 100 million years old? The Moon is actually thought to be billions of years old, yet no one said anything about the age he said it was?!
He says the Moon’s been tagging along with our planet for 100 million years. So it can still be billions of years old, but it only entered Earth orbit about 100 million years ago. (In the BG story Doctor Who and the Silurians, the approach of the Moon led the Silurians to go into hibernation to survive the expected impact. The date at which that occurred is vague. But there were dinosaurs.)
@scaryb – I agree the vote was Clara’s attempt to avoid responsibility. I think she hoped they’d vote to save the creature, then she could do what she wanted all along and it wouldn’t be her fault if the Earth was destroyed.
6 October 2014 at 04:00 #33115I got off to a bad start with this episode and the whole “she says she’s gone off the rails because you told her she wasn’t special” thing… It was that slapped-in-the-face-with-a-wet-fish feeling that I sometimes get when character and plot points are established via a one-sided dialogue. (What’s that Lassie? Timmy fell into the well?)
But leaving that minor niggle aside, I enjoyed the episode. It’s interesting to read quite a range of opinions this week. I like what you say @arbutus about different people’s areas of touchiness – personally, I’m cool with the whole self-fertilising space-egg thing, and the mass that seems to materialise from nowhere. But that shirt?? Give me a break!
@melloyello I really like your Courtney theory – especially all the parallels with River that I never noticed. Great spots 🙂 But then, how would we explain Courtney’s “parents” at the parents’ evening? Adopted maybe?
When it comes to “them or us” and sacrificing innocents to save the world, the Doctor doesn’t always exercise very good judgement. Ten went overboard killing the Racnoss Babies in the Runaway Bride, and had to be stopped by Donna. Eleven nearly labotomised a starwhale in The Beast Below and had to be stopped by Amy. And although War, Ten and Eleven ultimately found a way not to sacrifice Gallifrey, Clara was the catalyst: until she spoke up, they were ready to use the Moment… So perhaps he has genuinely come to the conclusion that humans (or at least Amy and Clara) make better judgement calls than he does in that sort of situation. Certainly, he left it up to humans to negotiate with Reptilians in Cold Blood, and with Zygons in The Day of the Doctor. Perhaps he had learned his lesson with the Starwhale. So I am inclined to agree with @phileasf (really loved your posts by the way!)
I think the Doctor did the right thing by leaving humans to make the choice
I wondered whether the spiders this episode were meant as a callback to the Racnoss babies that Ten drowned quite mercilessly – a reminder that the Doctor isn’t always at his best in a them-or-us situation.
The similarities with The Beast Below were really striking – right down to the last-minute button press. It might be worth pointing out that in TBB, Amy chooses to forget because she wants to protect the Doctor from having to make “an impossible choice: humanity or the alien”. Clara on the other hand seems angry that Twelve does not protect her from that same dilemma.
x
6 October 2014 at 04:19 #33116@ JaneeteB The Doctor left Clara behind in Deep Breath too- He has morphed into a completely different Doctor from 11- and a lot more heavy handed which is why Clara has such anxiety- its having a psychological effect on her – In Deep Breath Matt-doctor called Clara to say that 12 was still him- but he isn’t really is he
She will continue to have trouble adapting because I think she feels shortchanged and her unsettledness will continue to probably be a theme throughout this whole season -For the Doctors point of view I think he wants more from Clara then she wants to give
ps– I liked the moon/egg concept- really thought it was eggcellent6 October 2014 at 04:57 #33117@lisa I felt that in Deep Breath he always intended to return to Clara. He wasn’t abandoning her, just leaving her to cope while he found a solution to the problem. The frustrating thing is that he does not explain or “apologise” leaving Clara and the audience unsure as to his intentions. S.M. loves to make the audience “do the work” which I applaud though it does not work for everyone. He also leaves many things open to interpretation so there is no clear correct reading of things. I agree with you that he is asking a lot of Clara in this series, maybe because he knows something about the future or maybe just because in this regeneration he expects more of humans and understands less. It will certainly be interesting to see how this plays out.
Cheers
Janette
6 October 2014 at 04:59 #33118@janetteb Ah, yes. Interestingly, Clara started out the episode angry that the Doctor had told Courtney she wasn’t special, and she ended the episode angry at the Doctor for treating Clara herself as if she weren’t special. I don’t remember the exact words, but she definitely berated the Doctor for treating her the same as he treats other humans. It struck me at the time, because if it was intentional, it’s a bit of a snotty attitude to take. You’re right that the Doctor acts as though he has a different definition of “special”. Courtney is now “special” because she went to the moon, rather than special because she was a human being with her own individual strengths.
I will watch again tomorrow and get some of the dialogue sorted out, but there are some interesting undercurrents.
6 October 2014 at 05:07 #33119@purofilion The Doctor and the River of Forgetfulness– lovely.
@phileasf According to my husband, the earth history nerd, there is more than one theory regarding the origins of the moon. Definitely one theory (although admittedly not the most popular one) is that the moon is an asteroid that got sucked into our orbit at some point. So this could work with the Doctor’s “tagging along for a hundred million years” line, as well as the continuity with the Silurian episode.
@idiotsavon I like your point about the Doctor’s judgement. Perhaps some of these incidents were among the “mistakes” he mentioned in Deep Breath?
6 October 2014 at 05:08 #33120@phileasf I really like your Amy’s memories explanation for everything, and the Moon Dragon as a metaphor, and thought your point about the Doctor being/not being an officer was brilliant!
Re: the Doctor not knowing the future. In Cold Blood, humans and Silurians negotiate their respective futures on the Earth (the Doctor does not involve himself in the negotiations). The Doctor describes this moment as “A temporal tipping point. Whatever happens today, will change future events, create its own timeline, its own reality. The future pivots around you, here, now.” It’s the same phenomenon I feel, and possibly a bit more helpful as an explanation than Twelve’s “Grey area”.
@pedant – had never heard of the rule of cool before today. I love it!
Didn’t score very highly on the “things I’ll be looking out for” board this week.
Suppression of instinct: briefly – holding back the urge to run from the spider-germ-thing. Also – not quite the controlling of senses, but their presence or absence: the spider was blind, but could sense movement.
No chess reference (although the concept of sacrifice was central). Slavery/captivity: Nope. References to hypnotism: Nope. References to fiction/illusion/stories – only in so far as pretty much everyone who watched it at some point thought “this has got far too silly” (deliberately sabotaging the illusion – a bit Brechtian perhaps, @purofilion 🙂 ) Also David Copperfield, and the moon dragon – which is “pure myth” as @mtgradwell says.Incidentally: PINK moon – full moon in April (northern hemisphere) or October (southern hemisphere. Also called the EGG moon.) BLUE moon – third of four full moons falling within a single season. Other full moon names available here. Is Moffat naming his characters after full moons now??
x
6 October 2014 at 05:26 #33121Hello everyone. I am actually new to this forum so I want to post something that may or may not have already been mentioned.
First I’ll mention that I did enjoy this episode, though it wasn’t my favorite. The end where Clara just lets The Doctor have it was pretty intense–probably the most emotionally driven scene in this series so far.
Now to get to what I do want to mention. In the episode of “Time Heist”, The Doctor briefly mentions the woman in the shop. The only other time the woman in the shop is mentioned, was by Clara in the beginning of the last series episode, “The Bells of Saint John”. There are probably a couple of theories floating around as to who it might be. I first thought of Rose since she worked in a shop when we first met her. However, that might not work since she is in alternate reality and is working for alternate reality Torchwood, if I’m not mistaken. Then there is Martha, who in the episode “Blink”, briefly mentioned that she had to get a job in a shop since she thought she might have to be stuck there. However, that might not work either since, of’ course, this was in the past and Martha did make it back to her time. That now leaves us with none other than Sally Sparrow. She was in the episode “Blink” as well (one of my favorite eposides btw). At the end of the episode, you see that her and her friends brother run a shop together. You actually never see The Doctor give her his number. Also Clara never makes it clear how she got it either since she was quite dismissive about it. However, evidence would suggest that she could be it. The type of shop she owned was for antiquarian books and rare dvds. The book that you saw in The Bells of Saint John episode, was called Summer Falls, which of course, was written by Amy Pond (or Amelia Williams). We also know that the Doctor uses DVD’s for communication and transport. Maybe overtime she had figured something else out about the DVD’s she owned. I know that there may be a lot of holes but there are some links there that allow me to believe this. I would like to see her again because she was from my favorite episode and I believe she could have made a great companion as well.
6 October 2014 at 05:27 #33122there is more than one theory regarding the origins of the moon.
And not all of them are as believable as the giant space egg idea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaceship_Moon_Theory
The policeman in Deep Breath says that he thinks the dinosaur has laid an egg – does he have a troubling grasp of biology? Or does he perhaps know something we don’t? In light of this episode I’m not sure!
x
6 October 2014 at 07:13 #33123@scaryb – It’s impossible to keep up with you. You have been on top of this episode from the start, so many great posts I don’t know where to begin.
I’m definitely going with @phileasf’s Amy Reboot Theory to explain the ‘moon dragon egg’. It can still fit with what @thebrainofmoffat said about eggs, which I like too. I like my sea turtle explanation even more that way, because the egg could have been absorbing mass from another dimension (like the dimension where prisoner zero came from?). For me that fixes all of the dodgy science all at once.
It is a very cool throw back to Amy at the same time. Amy is now responsible for reigniting interest in space again, for the human race. And since most of the things Amy put into the world were from her imagination, maybe she imaged a dragon in the moon? Everything else that Amy didn’t think about (imagine) would be unaffected for the rest of the Whoniverse.
I still need to piece the Amy imagination theory together with a new theory I’ve been thinking about. But it seems like I can make it fit.
My theory is that the Doctor has been training Clara to be a TL, and this episode was her final exam.
I agree with ScaryB that
- [12] puts his faith in Clara to make that decision, based on what he already knows about her.
- If they had chosen the other option and blasted the moon out of existence then mankind would have faced a very dodgy future.
I think the Doctor was lying and not lying at the same time? The Moon Dragon Egg probably hatched without the Doctor or Clara’s help on the first time line (before this episode), because, as someone said up thread, the astronauts were probably killed without the Doctor’s help. But on this 2nd time line, the Doctor was testing Clara, so he didn’t know for sure what she would do until she did it. Clara saved the MDE this time too, so the future stayed the same on both time lines, except for returning the lady astronaut back to earth this time.
The Doctor said he was removing Clara’s training wheels (or something like that). He really did. Clara had to make a decision that the Doctor has to make all the time. She did it all by herself and passed the test. If passing the test was the last step to becoming a TL (and if TL is a title instead of a race); then that moment could be considered Clara’s birth as a TL. Maybe the Moon Dragon was a ‘look kittens!’ trick. 😯
In that case, the David Copperfield words make perfect sense, because the Moon Dragon didn’t cry (I think?), but Clara did.
Thx @PhileusF – To begin my life with the beginning of my life, I record that I was born (as I have been informed and believe) on a Friday, at twelve o’clock at night. It was remarked that the clock began to strike, and I began to cry, simultaneously.
Another reason I believe Clara could become a TL is because, I have been interested in how Clara snaps her fingers to open the Tardis doors after NotD, and she seems to be learning a lot about how to fly the Tardis too.
Apologies for this analogy, but it seems like the easiest way to say it.
So my theory is that the Doctor has been Yoda, teaching Clara to become a TL (instead of Jedi). If Tarids 2.0 is still around (@FatManInABox) or maybe Tardis Missy (like @serahni’s theory), then Clara might be ready to fly off in her own Tarids now.
Maybe Danny will be Clara’s companion, and Courtney will be the Doctor’s new student? 🙂
6 October 2014 at 07:46 #33124Though not my favorite of this season (Listen still takes the cake), I did think this was a very solid episode. Though I still don’t like how much the show seems to focus on the Doctor’s followers. So far it all feels sort of like Chris Eccleston’s run (with most of the story revolving around Rose Tyler). I didn’t dislike that season at all, however I enjoy when episodes of Doctor Who are about the Doctor himself. Listen felt like it focused on the Doctor and his own psychology and past just as much as it did Danny and Clara. Anyway…just my two cents.
@badwulf As for the abortion discussion, I think the Doctor illustrated the only logical course of action very well. We must step away from decisions that aren’t ours to make and hope the person will make the right or best decision. I was born out of wedlock and my biological mother told me she considered aborting me because she didn’t think she was ready. I don’t live with her anymore, but I didn’t destroy any one’s world to my knowledge. I can’t say I know what it’s like to have your entire way of life threatened, but I know that the power to take a life before it began for your own reasons is a terrifying power to wield. Odds are everything will be just fine.
6 October 2014 at 07:47 #33125Only one watching, as usual, and I was v tired but for what they’re worth, one or two thoughts.
The Annabels concurred re the daft science but for me that’s not a deal-breaker – oddly enough less so as I work with physicists, and know how the community is divided on theories about the universe (eg dark matter), and as I always recall a dear and sadly departed physicist friend used to say, science isn’t an exact science.
Courtney – I may have got this wrong but I thought the ‘vortex manipulators’ was a joke, that she brought travel sickness tablets or those wristband thingies and the Doc called them vortex manipulators? Re her not being special, did anyone else think of the way in which ‘special’ is used to mean ‘needing extra help and support’? Certainly in our household if we say to each other, yes, you’re very ‘special’, that’s what we mean… Loved the idea of the Doc shutting her in the Tardis, saying ‘don’t touch anything’! I guess if he thinks she’s 35 rather than 15…
Any significance in the Doc asserting that he didn’t kill Hitler? Given that Let’s Kill Hitler was the episode where we met Mels…
Re Clara’s choice, I think I agree that her communication to earth was an attempt to duck the decision. Given that she could never know actually what the majority of earth citizens thought, or how many had received the message let alone understood the implications, she was just hoping for something to let her off the hook. That could be why she asked them to turn the lights off if they disagreed with her – if they didn’t get the message then they would take no action and lights that were on would (by and large) stay on, which she could then interpret as a vote for the creature to live (and not worry too much about the half of the globe she couldn’t see!). The failure of that plan meant that she had to go with her gut instinct – which turned out to be right. If the Doc did know, it was a pretty horrific thing to do to her – and potentially to humanity. I guess we have to believe he didn’t, and so left it to her conscience to make the choice and take the gamble either way.
Phew. Got to use my brain for other stuff.
6 October 2014 at 08:22 #33126Ok, here’s a bonkers theory that was mentioned previously by others, but which I think we have more evidence for now:
Clara is both a Time Lady and Missy.
We know that exposure to the Time Vortex can produce Time Lords. The Doctor, in A Good Man Goes to War, said that it took many years for that to happen with his own race, but all it may have taken for River to possess the relevant attributes (altered DNA and regeneration) was to be conceived inside the Time Vortex. Now, Captain Jack may have become the Face of Bo later in life. If so, there are two possible explanations for this, and either could suffice: Bad Wolf was a timey wimey entity that did something to him (we know one effect, at least: seeming immortality); he also rode on the outside of the TARDIS in Utopia. Guess who else rode on the outside of the TARDIS: Clara (Time of the Doctor). She also went inside the Doctor’s time stream. The only flaw in this idea is that Jack didn’t regenerate each time he died on-screen. However, this could probably be waved away just by saying that Rose, as Bad Wolf, gave him more than one gift, and that we only saw one. Maybe his regenerative abilities only manifested after his on-screen time concluded, with his DNA taking some time to change, as River’s might have (she was somehow modified by the Silence, but we don’t know in exactly what ways, aside from brainwashing).
Also, as @handles mentions, Clara knows how to remotely open and close the TARDIS’s doors, and she now knows a little about how to fly the TARDIS (Journey to the Center of the TARDIS, Listen).
Going off of the facts that Moffat really enjoys acausal loops and that we’ve recently seen one in Time Heist, Missy — as a later incarnation of Clara — could have given her past self the Doctor’s phone number. After all, Courtney and Clara’s dialogue concerning whether the former should call the latter “Clara” or “Miss” was kept in the script for Kill the Moon, which I think may be significant. Clara would be the woman in the shop, who’s been referenced this series. Further support comes from the word “boyfriend”, in reference to the Doctor, popping up both in Missy’s Deep Breath lines and in the Doctor and Clara’s dialogue in the same episode. Clara-as-Missy then makes sense of the Doctor’s idea that someone (i.e. the woman in the shop, whom we suppose is Missy) wanted Clara and the Doctor to stick together. They were friends, after all, and each made the other what he or she is today (Time Lady, in one case, and regeneration-limit-surpassing Time Lord, in the other). Still, there must be something else, but what?
Could it be that Clara-as-Missy is attempting to save the people who died “for” the Doctor in the time since she became a Time Lady (Time of the Doctor)? The Doctor said that he wants to rectify or atone for his past mistakes, but perhaps a future version of Clara is fixing his present ones. Could the Doctor be working with Missy, and we’re only seeing their actions on the people in these episodes because… well, these are the episodes we’re watching now? Maybe it’s happening with lots of people throughout the Doctor’s life, but we’re just not privy to seeing it because Doctor Who is, after all, just a TV show.
6 October 2014 at 08:34 #33127@cathannabel indeed the confluence of Mels and ‘Let’s Kill Hitler’. I thought of it -but it whooshed right out of my head -to be replaced by most of Bowie’s songs and one of Queen’s I do believe: “Flash, ah aaaaaaah, saviour of-the-uni-verse” de aaaah dum. The manipulators; I totally agree with you. We jumped to Vortex M instead of sticking with ‘ginger’ wristbands for sickness which is much funnier -well, depending on your POV.
The ‘special’ term is also used at my work-places (both on the QT and in the actual sense of the word. Eeer…m). And yes, it was a “pretty horrific thing to do” if the Doctor did know!
But then @idiotsavon refers to the times he has expected humans to negotiate for themselves and recalls his own less than stellar reaction to creatures -as you said, the Racnoss (yes, the Spider babies from the Moon)
@juniperfish “the misanthropy” of this Doctor and his “world weariness“; a total dead-on statement!
@janetteb it was very interesting the delicate way in which you stated how “given the time in which the decision had to be made….would not be possible however acknowledging that the whole planet was not able to vote would have added weight to Clara’s final decision to ignore the result of her request”. Brilliant. And that’s what caused her confusion -at first, and led, later, to her absolute stomping fury; that snot faced sobbing which we do when utterly brought low.
It was interesting to see her in that way and recall ‘The Time of the Doctor’ where she whispers through the Crack: “the Doctor is the Doctor, it’s all you need to know”. Did the Doctor ever wise-up to the fact Clara did this?
To me, yes her (uncontrolled and angry as nuts) response was valid. Not just for the time stream ‘sailing’ but hanging onto the Tardis during the TotD and being gently taken away, like a stolid block of ice, to defrost somewhere. She was flying through all time and space; I still wonder what that did to her? Anything? Is she a Claricle because of that? Or are the Claricles, in effect, dead and buried?
@whisht hallooooo? How are you? Whaddayathink?
Interesting that some people are caught up in the Science (and that’s fine), others in the parabolic nature of the existence of the characters, others in moral arguments (including the dicey abortion issue/question -regarding which I have strong feelings), still others on the whole point…the bonkers theories…
I have none to add except the Crayola world in which we seem to be in with this incarnation. Consequently as @oblique said about The Caretaker, everything is new and fresh just as Sherwood was impossibly and implausibly green (not just explained by the robots and the use of gold/equipment etc).
btw, I like how the Dr does do the ‘jumping thing’ as Smith’s dr did in the Silurian ep with Amy and Rory -checking the hollowness of the earth, I spose.
Kindest, p
6 October 2014 at 08:38 #33128hmmm Hollow Earth…where did I hear that: Oh Lord, it was in Sanctuary, a show destined for binning, I think. Started out well, then, despite Christopher Hyderhal’s (sic) performance, it went ‘hollow’.
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