On The Sofa (4)
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27 February 2014 at 17:51 #25835
@faegrl The first Star Wars film came out when I was in high school, and I confess I absolutely adored it, and the following two. However. When the first of the new trilogy came out, I was so horrified that I never bothered with any of the others. Although for quite a while, I felt alone in my view (although not regarding Jar Jar Binks, whom even admirers of the new films mostly disliked!) I have been amused in recent times to realize that popular opinion has swung around to my point of view!
27 February 2014 at 18:00 #25836@faegrl @bluesqueakpip Agreed that arrogance is one of the Doctor’s definitive traits. There is perhaps a different quality to it in the post Time War Doctor(s), for the reason that there is nobody left who might potentially be his equal.
I also tend to share @faegrl‘s acceptance of the Doctor in any of his incarnations, in whatever direction they take. I may have my wish list, but in the end, it’s always the Doctor, isn’t it? I think perhaps that by seeing more of the incarnations in action, you do get a greater sense of the overarching characteristics that make him “The Doctor”. Some aspects change, some come more to the fore at times, some qualities are central often enough that we start to see them as constant, as “part of the whole”. @monochromedimension, I would say that the love of adventure, a certain anti-authoritarian streak, a tendency to mockery when under threat, and an underlying sense of justice, are reasonably constant.
(@Bluesqueakpip, I have been known in my non-forum life as a punctuation Dalek, commas and semicolons being my specialty!)
27 February 2014 at 18:30 #25839@arbutus – Oh of course their are traits that are the same or similar for each Doctor, he is after all the same Time Lord. But the fact remains that they are also very different, and when they meet they do seem like different people… because each incarnation is a different person, but they are all collectively the Doctor. Regeneration is a very odd thing indeed; its rewriting their personality as well as changing their appearance. Imagine what that must be like… the Fifth Doctor’s regeneration scene is one that stands out to me in this context;
27 February 2014 at 18:39 #25840Just watched all of ‘The Web of Fear’, brilliant 60s Who (Of course! The 60s was the best decade for Doctor Who). Very atmospheric as most of it is set in the London Underground, and the Great Intelligence is as creepy as ever. Though I really hope they one day find the rest of the first story with the Great Intelligence. At the end of ‘Web of Fear’ the Doctor was talking about probably having to face it again… unfortunately the series had to wait till Matt Smith was playing the Doctor before it made its return.
27 February 2014 at 19:13 #25843@monochromedimension They are indeed very different, and so we all have our favourite incarnations. What I meant was that when I think of the Doctor, I tend to see the commonalities as much as or more than the differences. So as @faegrl said, they seem to me more like part of the whole. More as I view myself: there are different aspects of me that have been stronger at different periods in my life. Only, for a thousand-year-old Time Lord who changes bodies, it is of course more complex.
As you say, regeneration is an odd thing. Isn’t it funny how much we all take it for granted… oh yes, well, the Doctor regenerates. No problem. Actually, meeting yourself from the past/future would be odd, even without regeneration to make it odder. I’m not sure how well I would deal with myself from 30 years ago, or if that self met present me. And then, throw in another me from 15 or so years down the road? Hard to say how we’d all get on, really. Then imagine hundreds of years and some face/personality changes along the way! 🙂
27 February 2014 at 19:42 #25844@arbutus – I do consider them the same person, but at the same time I don’t… its quite hard to explain. But as the first incarnation is not a regeneration… this means the First Doctor is who the Doctor actually is, if he had not become a Time Lord he would of just been a regular Gallifreyan. There would be no rewriting of personality. Surely this means all traits we have seen in every Doctor originally came from the First, but some are amplified, others become recessive. It does make me wonder though what the First Doctor was feeling before his regeneration, he knew it was going to happen… his first regeneration. The scene beforehand where he’s standing at the console while it moves by itself is, in my opinion, brilliantly filmed and acted… its so subtle, there’s no dialogue, no big regeneration speech and yet you can feel the emotion. He’s been travelling for so long as himself, but now things have to change… but as the Doctor once said; “It’s far from being all over…”
I’m getting sentimental now, its such a shame that scene is degraded. And why the heck can’t I find the FULL sequence? Everyone just seems to post the actual regeneration effect than the entire clip, which does actually exist. Would have posted a vid of it here otherwise.
27 February 2014 at 20:20 #25845@monochromedimension It’s a very good point that all of the qualities that come and go in later doctors would have been a part of the First Doctor. It brings up the question of what personality actually is. Do we all have certain characteristics that, while dormant or mostly so in us now, might become stronger if we, like the Doctor, had the ability to regenerate? In a way, this does happen during the natural aging process. As I suggested in my earlier post, I am both the same person and a very different one now than I was as a teenager, or in my twenties, and so on and on.
And what if, for a Time Lord, personality was made up not only of what was seen in the first incarnation, but what was possible (and maybe only evidenced by what the person wished themselves to be?) The First Doctor, of course, had lived a long life on Gallifrey by the time we first met him, and we know very little about that life. On Gallifrey, there would have been no opportunity for him to become the rebellious adventurer that we would come to know and love. Perhaps the Doctor left Gallifrey because, in his hearts, he felt that he could be different– bolder, wiser, braver? Perhaps the very act of stealing a TARDIS and leaving Gallifrey was the first courageous step in a process that would allow him to become the Time Lord that he truly was inside.
I believe that with the First Doctor, we are seeing the Doctor at the beginning of his transformation. This is why we sometimes see behaviour that goes against what we expect from him based on our experience of later incarnations. He is not yet the hero that we have come to know. But he is on the way to being that hero. These are his earliest experiences with both the wonder and the evil of the universe outside Gallifrey. For the first time ever, he makes non-Gallifreyan friends. He meets true evil like the Daleks. And he begins to become the person that will leave such a mark on the cosmos that his removal from it would threaten our whole history.
(Funny, now that I think of it, that this caused no apparent problem in The Big Bang, when he rebooted the universe without himself in it? As we have speculated in other episodes, the Earth– among other places– would have been destroyed hundreds of times over if the Doctor had never existed. But I digress.)
I’ve speculated a bit elsewhere about what situations/causes might have led certain traits to become dominant in certain incarnations, but I’ve never really thought about where all those traits came from in the first place, and in the case of the First Doctor, where they were all hiding? Does experience really change us, or does it just bring different aspects of ourselves out from deep inside? The latter, I think. And I think that the Doctor’s earliest adventures allowed him to blossom, to become free of whatever restraints might have been over him from his formative years on Gallifrey. By the time of his (I agree, very poignant) regeneration, I think he was definitely ready to express the view of the line from the Bob Dylan song: “I was so much older then; I’m younger than that now.”
Essay over. Sorry it was so long. But I’ve never thought about some of this before, and it’s cool. 🙂
27 February 2014 at 20:32 #25846Hi @arbutus and @monochromedimension – interesting thoughts on regenerations….
Arbutus – not sure if you read this, but its from a blog called Brain Pickings written by Maria Popova, and she mentioned yesterday the very thing you’re referring to when you talked about the ‘different you’s’ over time.A sentence in the entry really stood out:
“Can the present you trust the future you?”
Its an interesting piece and possibly worth reading (and its not long!).
27 February 2014 at 20:55 #25849@arbutus – No problem, it was interesting! lol And I completely agree that the Doctor definitely changed during his First incarnation, I have stated before that Ian and Barbara are two of the most important companions the Doctor has ever had for this reason. If he had never met them, we would not have the Doctor we know today. The First was originally very alien, he cared little for humans; the rock scene is a good example… but there are others, such as when Barbara fell over when they were trying to escape, and the Doctor just ran straight past her. However if this had been in season 2 the Doctor would have definitely helped her up again. And the rock scene? There’s no way the First Doctor would contemplate doing something like that again. Because of his travels with Ian and Barbara, he became more ‘human’, and therefore began to care about their welfare and the Earth (as Earth does really seem to be the Doctor’s favourite planet now). Its interesting to wonder what the Doctor was like on Gallifrey, we only saw his original personality for a few serials before he became a much more caring character. If not for Ian and Barbara… then who knows.
Its a very interesting theory that what he wanted to be, a regeneration will take on; after all I do think he left Gallifrey partly because he wasn’t content there. But the reason for his leaving Gallifrey is still a mystery (and should remain so), but it is interesting to take into account what was added in ‘Remembrance’, he had the Hand of Omega… why, and how? Also the First Doctor did once contemplate going home, but then said that no, he couldn’t return… ah the mysteries of the Doctor!
So… lets see… what did his first regeneration become? Quite the opposite of his first incarnation! Very different indeed; a quite clownish, happy fellow… not very authoritative… only when he had to be. Full of whimsy, though not as brave as the First strangely enough; but a very caring man. However despite the sometimes silly nature of the Second Doctor, he usually had a plan, he knew what he was doing and he was highly intelligent like his predecessor. The fact that there is such a vast difference between the First and Second Doctors is why the regeneration actually worked to keep the series going, if he had been too similar to the First then it probably wouldn’t have worked as well as it did. This new Doctor; the same man but so very different, he is the Doctor as the First was; the first regeneration of the Doctor changed him a great deal. But what about when the Second was forced (very brutally might I add) to regenerate and exiled? The Time Lord’s picked his form that time… did they influence his personality too? How much did they interfere in that regeneration really? I wonder if it had more effect on him than we realize.
27 February 2014 at 21:05 #25850And for those who haven’t watched the Second Doctor’s regeneration, this is what I’m talking about;
I just feel so sorry for him, being forced to regenerate must be awful. Hmmm… I wonder if this is a contributing factor as to why the Second and Third Doctor’s don’t get along and often argue? Dunno, random theory. Who knows what a forced regeneration can do.
28 February 2014 at 11:38 #2585728 February 2014 at 13:13 #25861I didn’t disappear for too long… I had an eye appointment yesterday and couldn’t reply back sooner, because my pupils were dilated. I missed this forum right away, even though it’s only been some hours. LOL! Now to catch up..,
@monochromedimension – No need to explain, I think I understand. Before I began to watch the BG episodes now, I seen the Doctor the same way, as different people but part of a whole… like grapes! Each individual, but hanging off the same vine. And now that I’m getting to know the other Doctors, I’m starting to view the reincarnations like kernels of a corn cob, less separate from the whole, even though every kernel is different. Sorry, a weird metaphor! 😛
I must find that episode NOW, before I view anything else. Thanks for giving me the title! 😀
@arbutus – EXACTLY! That’s how I am viewing the Doctor now, more for their similarities than differences. It’s like a whole new perspective to me that I never had before. I think it’s happening because it’s not just three Doctors that I love most anymore… more are sneaking in, because they remind me of the three that I love. Then I realize it’s because the Doctor is one alien in the first place. I do like the First Doctor and I’m falling in love with the Seventh already… so now I can’t help but to see a flash of many faces in my mind, when I think of the Doctor. 🙂
Off topic… are two Daleks going to battle now, the Grammar Dalek and the Topic Dalek? How exciting! I wonder if it will be similar to the Dalek vs. The Cybermen. Haha!
28 February 2014 at 13:35 #25863@faegrl – I think I went off on a theorizing regeneration rant yesterday. lol! I find regeneration a very interesting concept, trying to understand it completely probably isn’t possible though. And no problem, its just one long episode, so not in parts; a special for the 20th anniversary.
Glad you like the Seventh Doctor; I’m completely in love with him. And the First Doctor is just brilliant, but they’re both my favourites, so obviously! Hahahaha.
Re: Daleks – Well I just used emergency temporal shift so I should be safe from the Grammar Dalek… unless Grammar Dalek uses emergency temporal shift as well… to the exact same place!
28 February 2014 at 14:00 #25865Quite the opposite of his first incarnation!
Well, in some ways. But like a few others here, the DVD of Web of Fear has just plunked through my letterbox, and I’m watching it on a big telly.
And since I’ve also recently been watching William Hartnell in the first three stories, I was very struck by the way Patrick Troughton kept a Hartnell habit. Namely, that when the Doctor faces away from the humans, his face shows his true feelings. He’s got the same slight smile on his face, that slight amusement as he manipulates the humans into doing what he wants.
So – different persona, but very much the same man.
28 February 2014 at 14:06 #25866You’re perfectly safe from the Grammar Dalek. I am only programmed to exterminate those who fail to use capitalisation and punctuation. 😈
Besides, you’re currently wearing the icon of a Doctor, and all Daleks know that trying to exterminate the Doctor never ends well. 😀
28 February 2014 at 14:34 #25868@bluesqueakpip – Oh there’s always some similarities, as they are the same Time Lord. But when comparing both the First and Second, there is a vast difference in character as well. As stated before, the Doctor has always had a manipulative side in all incarnations… the Seventh Doctor just had it as a dominating factor of his personality.
Re: Daleks – Oh good, then Topic Dalek can return to patrolling the threads! I’m on duty again. I wonder when we’ll see the Daleks exterminating people in the series? They seem to just miss nowadays.
28 February 2014 at 16:56 #25873@whisht I do read Brain Pickings from time to time, great blog. Thanks for that article, I hadn’t seen it. I will have a leisurely read this weekend while you are winging your way to the land of rice noodles and pho. Enjoy!
28 February 2014 at 17:02 #25874@monochromedimension Its interesting to wonder what the Doctor was like on Gallifrey, we only saw his original personality for a few serials before he became a much more caring character.
I suspect that it wasn’t so much that the Doctor was uncaring as that he shared the bias of the Time Lords: that they consider themselves vastly superior to all other beings. Over and over, in the Gallifrey-based episodes, we learn that they hold non-Time Lords in very low esteem. The Doctor probably started out that way as well; we know how hard it can be for people to shake off the prejudices instilled during their upbringing.
Interesting theory about two and three! It’s true that they seemed to noticeably annoy one another, and a forced regeneration might account for some of that. Although, Six also viewed himself as a great improvement on Five. I think most of the incarnations tended to view their new selves with a certain amount of resignation (although that may have been merely a reaction to the physical appearance, rather than the character).
28 February 2014 at 17:47 #25876Hi @phaseshift – he he, maybe, though a cameraphone photo from my phone could be a tad underwhelming (its not a great camera).
However I will think of people here and if I see anything I’ll give it a snap!
Now, really must pack!
28 February 2014 at 17:53 #25877Pete C seeks the approval of a young Dalek…
28 February 2014 at 18:04 #25878@arbutus – Well most incarnations do tend to have at least a small amount of disdain when in the presence of another; but with the Second and Third it is very clear they dislike each other. And the Sixth Doctor was quite an egocentric incarnation, so of course he’d view himself as better than his previous incarnation. But the Sixth Doctor is also rather interesting, the regeneration from Fifth to Sixth wasn’t quite right. After all the Fifth said; “Feels different this time…” just before he regenerated. The Sixth Doctor’s personality was a bit twitchy, as was his fashion sense… do I have to mention what happened to Peri during his post-regenerative state? @faegrl If you haven’t watched that scene yet, just a warning; it may affect you more than the rock scene!
But back on subject here; apparently the Fifth and Seventh don’t like each other much either, but its more to do with the Fifth disagreeing with the Seventh’s manipulative methods; they’re very different Doctors.
I would like to know exactly how much influence the Time Lord’s had on the Second to Third regeneration.
28 February 2014 at 18:17 #25880TARDIS makes an appearance on shadow dance performance…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01t1fhl
An exclusive Shadowland performance by the amazing Pilobolus!
28 February 2014 at 19:27 #25884@monochromedimension – Oh, my reaction to the rock scene with the First Doctor was shock, followed by laughter over the shock and his excuse when he was caught. So, if the scene is shocking (not sure which one you speak of, because I’m still way behind on the Seventh serials, having finished the First, nowhere near checking out the Second and Third Doctors yet) like the First Doctor’s scene, if anything it will make me more curious of that particular regeneration. 😀
And regarding about the regeneration not liking each other, I agree with you and @Arbutus, it does seem like every Doctor have a disdain for another. The Tenth and Eleventh’s “pissing contest” is very hilarious. I don’t know of Fifth or Sixth’s… yet! I’m looking forward to it. I do know of Fifth and Tenth’s meeting, although they seemed to like each other, for obvious reasons. I also think that the Doctor’s disdain and dislike for each regeneration is the same way how we don’t like our own regeneration as well. When I think of my younger self, I growl, “Ugh! What is wrong with you?! What were you thinking?!” And if I somehow met my younger self, I think I would shake her silly. Then again, my future regeneration may feel the same way about the present me. 😉
28 February 2014 at 22:45 #25889I have mixed feelings about Samuel Anderson’s new character, Danny Pink. I’d like to know everyone’s thoughts on the rumors suggesting that he may be Clara’s new love interest. You can listen to my opinion here – https://soundcloud.com/missshannonkent/doctor-who-news-2-28 –
28 February 2014 at 23:09 #25891Anonymous @
@missshannonkent whilst I listened to your radio blog, I think saying ‘you have to be dense not to see that Clara has fallen in love with the Doctor’ is little apropos . Many would argue (with evidence) that this is not the case. They’d provide strong arguments for their conclusions. I’m not sure, myself, whether she’s in love with him. Certainly in BosJ, it isn’t clear, and it certainly isn’t clear in other segments later. The relationship is more complicated. Even at Christmas, Clara (in asking him to be her boyfriend) doesn’t act the typical ‘giggly, I’m in love with you, silly’ theme. She’s excited; she uses the doctor to obtain restaurant bookings and to engineer other machinations. Her life, when he isn’t there, continues on quite merrily. Unlike Martha, who was so much in love with Tennant’s Doctor, that the poignancy of that knowledge was captivating on screen: it existed without a doubt. With Clara, and even with Amy (Amy’s Choice) the complexity and fevered setting creates (and re-doubles) that endless question: Is she in love/is she not in love??
Kindest, Purofilion
28 February 2014 at 23:16 #25892@wolfweed that looked utterly incredible. I tried to check the video from the link but the msg “the content doesn’t seem to be working” appeared. Aren’t they amazing! Thx for posting . Kindest, puro.
1 March 2014 at 00:02 #25895@faegrl – Okay, just a warning! Best thing to remember is he’s just regenerated so is not in a proper frame of mind at the time. Just wondering; how much have you watched of the Seventh Doctor’s serials so far? Interested to know your opinions on his personality once you start watching his second season.
@missshannonkent – I actually hope Danny will be a love interest for Clara, as I am not keen on the obsession the New Series seems to have for Doctor/Companion romantic relationships. I hope they downplay the romantic aspect for the Doctor with Capaldi. I dunno… it just seems to take away some of the mystery of the character for me; they didn’t need it in the Old Series, they don’t need it now. In fact I don’t find any of the New Who Doctor’s anywhere as mysterious in character as the Classic Doctors were. Of course, just my opinion.
1 March 2014 at 00:56 #25899@monochromedimension you sure love your old Who 🙂 But really, an obsession?? I think that’s going a bit far my friend. Yes, Tennant brought in the chicks. But did Eccleston? Hurt? Smith? The latter had Amy who loved Rory and Clara who loves him as Bluesqueakpip has stated, but she’s not ‘in love’ with him like Rose definitely was. Even Martha…I’m now not so sure about…a mysterious and good looking alien turns up, kisses you and shows you all of time and space? Yep, there’d be an infatuation….Maybe that’s all it was. But I’m happy to be contradicted. 🙂 Kindest, purofilion
1 March 2014 at 01:09 #25900@missshannonkent sorry but listening again to your blog you said that “I don’t think that Rose would have shacked up with Mickey as soon as the 10th Doctor was torn away”. Of course not. They were not in the same place. She knew long before this that her life with Mickey was over. No offence here: but have you watched those series? 🙂 Rose was reunited with the Doctor and we know that prior to this, Mickey ended up on a parallel universe working with a different group to stop the Cybermen.
Also, in no way was Rose really in love with Mickey. To compare that to Clara’s interest in the Doctor is a comparison/contrast that can’t even be started with a marker pen and butcher paper! Rose cared for Mickey but he cared for her much more. In the end, he realised she truly loved 10. And when marooned with him (as a one -heart blue suited doctor) she was finally happy. Of course she said: “but he’s not you”. However, she did hear him say “I love you”. It was resolved and she was more than placated. He would age with her after all. The Doctor could never do this. But no, Clara has no such attachment to the Doctor. It is not romantic love. She toyed with it for a while, but not for long. IMHO. Kindest, puro
1 March 2014 at 01:16 #25901wolfweed thanks for posting that clip of capaldi and the young fan. very nice !
1 March 2014 at 01:32 #25902@monochromedimension and @arbutus and others who were involved in that whole discussion about regeneration that I missed!!! Monochrome I love your ideas about the regen scenes and about what is missing. Your whole understanding of these sequences and the old Who knowledge is incredible; you’re like a Wizard and even like Bluesqueakpip: her knowledge as Arbutus has said is like the Library. Every computer screen bubbling with knowledge about all doctors and their scenes.
Yes, personality as a distinct issue is a vast argument with so much that it can’t possibly be contained. I loved the description of the ‘happy fellow’; the idea of dominant traits and of recessive ones. The concept of the True Doctor; Doctor Prime, if you will. It’s more than “am I ginger” isn’t it? There’s a question as to what makes up the The Doctor? Is it his experiences with true evil (like Daleks) combined with the amplification of the emotions experienced by the companions? This then enables him to express his own views and to countenance other people’s feelings and motivations without questioning, as a person, how his regenerations effect those new feelings that he has suddenly germinated. I like the new Doctor after Davison’s regen scene. I love his recitation of Peri’s ‘egotistical’ nature. But, shamefully, the wit was lost due to certain physical exertions and manifestations on screen (eeer….). I remember hearing that discussion about 3 months ago on this site when I first joined up!
This new doctor (Baker) was very different. Again, I have only seen one or two episodes. I’d like to know why people didn’t enjoy this doctor? Was it because he was so very different to Davison? So arch and haughty? He reminds me a bit of TE Lawrence, actually. Not the good bits!! What do you think Arbutus and Monochrome D?
Kindest, puro.
1 March 2014 at 02:02 #25903@Purofilion – I seem to be suffering from insomnia tonight. Must go to bed…
Anyway, when we were discussing the Sixth Doctor, the general conclusion was that we didn’t like him because he had no charm. The Doctor can often be a bit of a git, but the Sixth was, too often, a charmless git. Possibly it was a side effect of the Spectrox poisoning. 😉
Because one consistent characteristic of the Doctor is that he’s charming. You can see it very clearly in John Hurt’s War Doctor; he’s got exactly one performance to get his Doctor right – and he pours on the charm in buckets. He’s charming to the ‘boys’ (until he finds out they’re him), he’s charming to Clara, he’s even quite charming to the bloke who wants to behead the Doctor. (“This has all the makings of your lucky day”)
Judging by @wolfweed‘s lovely set of photos, Peter Capaldi has already figured that out that part of the Doctor’s personality. 😀
1 March 2014 at 02:48 #25904@purofilion Re: New Series relationships – Okay, okay… ‘obsession’ probably was an over-statement! Sorry, I guess I’m just a bit annoyed by it; but it happens with most series nowadays anyhow… there’s always a lot of emphasis on relationships. I guess I’m just a silly Classic Series fan, who wants the show to be more like the original… but that’s not going to happen. I get very sentimental about Old Who, and although I like the New Series as well, it won’t surpass the original for me. I know a lot of folks on here probably prefer New Who, and that’s fine, to each their own… I just hope people don’t mind me going on and on about the Classic Series, with theories and discussion… and rambling.
Re: Regeneration – Awww, thanks! lol I seem to theorize and discuss the Classic Series like most folks do with the New Series! But even I have yet to watch all the Classic episodes; its an ongoing quest.
And yes, some great points there; you contribution to the conversation is most welcome! I love discussing the Classic Doctors. Because every Doctor is different, its interesting to observe their emotions, reactions and attitude toward different aspects… and compare them to one another. Find out what the differences are, and the similarities. Each Doctor is unique, but all make up this one Time Lord… you cannot ignore one Doctor, because even if you’re not keen on that incarnation; he is still the Doctor. Apparently there is fans out there who don’t like to even take into consideration the Classic Series Doctors. But it all did start with the First Doctor, he is the original… and whenever he is with other incarnations… isn’t it interesting how he usually takes control of the situation? Or knows what to do? Oh I would like to know his opinions on all the other Doctors!
Also to @bluesqueakpip Re: Sixth Doctor – He does seem to get quite a bit of dislike which is a shame; I think its partly due to the fact it shocked people when he tried to strangle Peri, even though he was in his post-regeneration state, and felt bad about it afterwards… and the fact the series went on hiatus for a while… WHICH WAS NOT COLIN BAKER’S FAULT! Sorry, had to make that point! But yes another contributing factor is probably his attitude, he is a very egocentric and brash incarnation. But I quite like his personality, it was very different from the Fifth Doctor’s… but that’s to be expected! He’s a new incarnation… that and like I mentioned before; the regeneration was a bit ‘twitchy’. Also a mention to the scene where he kills Shockeye in ‘The Two Doctors’, it is a bit ‘un-Doctorish’.
But that being said… I’d like to say he still had the good traits of the Doctor, he was caring (check out his reaction in ‘Trial’ when he thinks Peri was killed), heroic (despite attitude sometimes) and bloody clever. And sometimes he could be quite sweet as well. I disagree that he had ‘no charm’; I will defend the Sixth Doctor… and his coat!
1 March 2014 at 03:58 #25905@Purofilion Sorry if this is a long reply, but I feel as if there is quite a bit to be said in response. I’d like to start out by letting you know that I appreciate your response and respect your opinion. With that being said, I want to clarify that I was sharing an opinion as well. I also have reasons for my opinion, much like you have for yours.
You stated “The relationship is more complicated. Even at Christmas, Clara (in asking him to be her boyfriend) doesn’t act the typical ‘giggly, I’m in love with you, silly’ theme. She’s excited; she uses the doctor to obtain restaurant bookings and to engineer other machinations.” I think it is important that I make it clear that I am aware that when Clara asks this of the doctor she is not being serious. She was in a bind and he was her solution. I believe anyone watching the show and anyone able to comprehend basic human interaction was able to understand that she wasn’t asking him for any reason other than to avoid explaining to her family that she did not actually have a boyfriend. My opinion on Clara’s feelings towards the Doctor stem from actions and certain moments shared between them. Not because I am fishing for an outright confession of love. I pull from moments such as in the Christmas special, when Clara’s gran tells a story about seeing her husband standing there and never wanting him to change. I’ve been in love and have lost it as well. Clara’s reaction to that story was pure heartache. Heartache that can only come from truly loving someone. Now, one could argue that she was just in love with the adventure and the friendship the Doctor gave to her, but in my opinion she wouldn’t have clung to the TARDIS for hundreds of years to get back to him. Also in the Christmas special ‘The Snowmen’ Clara kisses the Doctor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjs6fXIJiZ4) so I think it is fair to say there is a possibility that she could have feelings for him in a recent incarnation as the Impossible Girl as well.
I’d also like to address my statement “I don’t think that Rose shacked up with Mickey as soon as she was torn away from the 10th. At least not right away” The “At least not right away” was meant to be sarcastic. which is why the inflection in my voice changed when I said it. Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE Doctor Who, but at the end of the day its still just a television show. So please know that though I am passionate about it, I like to keep things light and fun as well. So no, I most definitely did NOT take offense when you wrote “have you watched those series?” First of all because the answer is yes; many times. Secondly, because we have the exact same opinion regarding Mickey and Rose. Plus, I would be worried if I ever became genuinely offended just because someones opinion differed from my own.
I hope this helped to clarify things for you a bit. I thank you again for your response, and I look forward to your feedback in the future.1 March 2014 at 07:22 #25906@missshannonkent ah the yanks gotta love em. And I do. Most assuredly. When I said ‘have you watched the series?’ I also added an inflection – a smile! 🙂 We do it all the time here. And I must welcome you to the site. Really. Welcome! It’s good to hear from someone new here and with a love for the show.
I think if you’ve read any of my posts here, I don’t cause offence & I sign off politely 🙂 Frankly, as an Aussie, I didn’t hear an inflection. Not a one! Put it down to deafness and nerves about my upcoming ‘jump from the plane.’ And yes you can say: “why didn’t ya stay up there then?’
As Ten would say, ‘quite right too.’ But I shall apologise if I didn’t pick up on your sarcasm. In the radio blog, I really couldn’t hear it. So, my bad?? I shall be respectful. Generally, that’s what you do get here. A real sense of community and care for each other. I wouldn’t want to act otherwise and get a bad rep from our wonderful mods. They do a terrific job!
Kindest to you Miss
pur.
1 March 2014 at 07:45 #25908@missshannonkent now to the theory you have about Clara. In the early part of her series with Smith she spoke of her mother and that fantastic symbol of the leaf. No, I don’t think she was talking to her Gran and thinking of the Doctor at all. Not in the way of infatuation and love. Many have argued as to the difference of being ‘in love’ or simply ‘loving’. Does it matter? No, not necessarily, but it helps with the equation. And we are equitable creatures 🙂 And in simpleness, good must lie. And we find the Doctor doing that….
I believe she was remembering, as you do at Christmas, missed loved ones. She speaks in the Bells of St John about her ‘wonderful mother’ and of course, about soufflés: “it’s the recipe”. This caused her to show anxiety during the Christmas special. The love for her mother and the love her father had for his wife (not the current Type A sitting beside him at the table) made her wistful and sad. To her the Doctor is a wise man who appeared out of nowhere on a desolate strip of road with a bewitching offer to make all her dreams come true.
As Bluesqueakpip said, yes, Clara loves him. It is not the love of anguish but the Greek love of ‘puro’, the love of all things continued, never ending into eternity. It is a platonic love: the highest. In this land of Who it is easy to re-direct, to reinvent, to embroider, flatter and to confer kindness, wisdom, charm, sensual and sexual love and attraction on actions which contain nothing of the sort.
The love Clara Prime has for the Doctor doesn’t excite her senses but rather, tears at her heart. It is the love that ultimately came to her father upon his wife’s passing. And yet their love was that of husband and wife. As Clara floats into millions of claricles trying to find a way to save the doctor and atone for humanity, her love too, attains a higher, or ‘nobler’ goal: although that is now quite clichéd. Be that as it is, her anguish must spring from a different place. When she asks the Time Lords to save the Doctor, her anguish and desperation is palpable (Here, I would suggest reading some of @arbutus posts. They are stunningly written).
When Clara knows the Doctor’s dying, she has a backward glance at the ghost of her dear companion (not her dear ‘love’). Nonetheless, hinc illae lacrimae. And all of Australia, UK, Canada and America shared those!
Kindest, purofilion
1 March 2014 at 07:59 #25909@monochromedimension and @bluesqueakpip I must I must get off this sofa -ducks behind parapet as the mods might see some of these long posts -shouldn’t be in this section? ssh?
I see what you mean about ‘charmless git’. Love it bluesqueak. Love it! MD (monochrome: can I call you MD? It fits with the Dr motif!!), I can observe your knowledge is frighteningly amazing! How much of this do you watch? Do you sleep? At all? 🙂 🙂 Yes, it’s interesting (seriously folks) to witness how the 1st Dr and his personality was vindicated by the other doctors. Even Smith has a touch of the grandfatherly quality though I must own he isn’t able to pull it off quite like the venerable Hartnell and even Troughton, with his mischievous obligation to high cold principles: loyalty, duty, sacrifice (if absolutely necessary).
Interesting, is what each person definitively believes about their doctor, isn’t it? The regen makes for a fresh, but not entirely, new start: a re-creation of sorts, meandering around, with shadowy edges, cool and listless or loud and brash. Who knows. Who knows?? 🙂
kindest, puro.
1 March 2014 at 08:18 #25910Right I am going to wade in on a couple of topics that have been floating around lol(primarily as I’ve been lazy over the last few days and only just caught up on my emailed post subscriptions). On the matter of companion doctor love new who hardly has a monopoly on this as I remember Sarah-Jane Smith certainly seemed to have the “hots” for Four though I do suppose this was slightly creepy since she had a more father/daughter relationship with Three. To a degree I think most the female companions go through an adoration phase with the doctor I think in part it is a part of his charm make up they either see him as this “sexy” bloke or as a trusted father figure. Yes AG series’s have emphasied the romantic but as other members have commented that seems to be the way modern dramas seem to be today, and part of the appeal of the show is that whilst being distinctive it has always tried to be current.
Now on the topic of the grammar and topic Daleks lol I quiver in my boots. I am certainly no English language major 🙁 and my spelling certainly leaves something to be desired so please be gentle with me @monochromedimension 🙂 :p
On the matter of regeneration I love the theory of dominant and ressesive personality traits. Let’s be honest if the doctor was exactly the same each regeneration the show would certainly would not have lasted 50 years.
1 March 2014 at 10:18 #25912Hello All,
As some of you may know Character Builder was producing small Doctors with Lego compatible bricks. That license agreement has come to an end and that now makes it available for Lego Cuusoo, a site where people can suggest potential Lego sets.
I have partnered with Kaminoan to produce a set proposal and I am hoping that you will assist us by voting for this project and helping to get the word out to other that might be interested in seeing The Doctor come to Lego.
Thank you for your support.
1 March 2014 at 11:39 #25915@devilishrobby – your spelling is fine. 😉
Regarding Sarah Jane Smith and the Fourth Doctor, from what Liz Sladen said, it was a mutual attraction. She joked that she and Tom felt the Doctor and Sarah Jane were probably dragging each other behind the TARDIS pillars at every off-screen opportunity. 🙂
It is a change that any romance on the part of the Doctor is now on-screen, rather than something the actors decide for themselves as a subtext. That was a very deliberate decision by RTD. It’s sometimes difficult to remember that everyone went into Series 1 of AG Who knowing that there might only be a Series 1.
So the writers weren’t proud – they threw everything bar the kitchen sink at Series 1 (ah, if only BG Who had included a kitchen-sink-monster). Russell T knew all the soap opera tricks; they’re designed to keep the audience hooked, keep them tuning in and he used them all. Rose had a family and a boyfriend – through the series we saw how her growing love for the Doctor impacted on those people.
So Series 1 had something for each section of that audience it desperately needed. The kids, generally, will like the farting monsters, the scary gas-mask child, the Daleks. The Whovians will watch if you make sure enough BG elements are included. The non-Whovian Dads watching with their kids will have Billie Piper to keep their attention. And the non-Whovian Mums (also watching with their kids) will now have a family saga/romance to follow. Because, stereotypical or not, women like a strong emotional storyline.
And by golly, did it work. When @scaryb and I went round the 50th Celebration, one of the very noticeable things was that the fandom was now equally split between men and women. It was no longer 90% male.
Some of that is undoubtedly due to the ‘David Tennant effect’ (that guy is hot). Followed by Matt Smith, who has his own brand of geek
charm. 😉But I think a lot of that more balanced fandom is that Doctor Who now pays a lot more attention to the emotional fallout – which is the likely result of travelling around space and time with an attractive bloke. With a cool ‘car’. And who is effectively possessed of an independent income.
After all,
it is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a used TARDIS, must be in want of a wife.
😈
1 March 2014 at 12:34 #25920@everyone
While I’m one of the least sensitive people to being “on or off topic” I can’t help but feel that extended dialogue on the merits of one or more Doctors would probably be better on the Faces of the Doctor strand. Mainly because a while ago long posts On the Sofa became the source of some consternation. General consensus seemed that this was a place for light-hearted banter, introductions and general happy thoughts. We wouldn’t want someone new being afraid to leap into an in depth discussion.
So while a spirited defence of the Sixth Doctor would be welcome, and I’d be happy to engage with anyone who finds fault with my thoughts – take it over there please.
I’ve edited the header of that forum to remove the references to a month by month analysis because that time is past.
1 March 2014 at 12:45 #25921Just out of interest has there been an official confirmation that the Character Options deal has been terminated? I thought that the position was that it was still in negotiation, which was why Lego were considering the options?
The main problem I can see straight away with your image is the Daleks. Final approval for use of the Daleks is by the Nation Estate who are funny about representations, even when money is involved. I think that may be a problem with Doctor Who for Lego – it’s a number of properties and approvals rather than one cohesive property they can option.
1 March 2014 at 13:02 #25928@ All The final part of “Quatermass and The Pit” is now ready for discussion. A bit earlier today as I’m off out shortly.
http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/forums/topic/quatermass-and-the-pit-part-6/
I’d be quite happy with an RTD retrospective as he’s, unfairly I think, come in for a lot of stick. There’d be no new Who without him, and it wouldn’t be what it was if he hadn’t done a great job in reinventing it for a modern audience. Gatiss has been quite good but his only really excellent episode is “Cold War” in my opinion. It took him a while to get into his stride.
As for BG Who, it’s true we haven’t had a Colin Baker story yet, and that’s possibly a bit unfair.
1 March 2014 at 13:51 #25930@Phase Shift
Thanks for the info on the Daleks. I am aware that they are interesting when in comes to licensing but I was not aware it would be a potential issue. I will make a point of that in the project.
I have no idea what the 100% Official Status is on Character Builder and Doctor Who but I am 100% certain that Lego thinks it is in play:
What follows is the official posting:
Sometimes we have to turn down project submissions that refer to specific brands or licensed properties. We do this to avoid getting your hopes up for something we know we aren’t able to make. In these cases, we already know the LEGO Group can’t secure licensing rights to produce construction toys based on a particular brand or property, due to a conflicting interest with a third party.
If such a conflict goes away, we’ll then be able to accept projects based on a particular brand or license.
The Fine Print:
If your project was previously turned down, archived, or deleted due to a licensing conflict that is now resolved, you may re-submit it as a new project. Supporters from past projects cannot be applied to a future project.
Resolved Past Licensing ConflictsWe now welcome projects based on the following licenses that used to have conflicts:
Dr. Who – February 2014
1 March 2014 at 14:47 #25933@phaseshift – Ah yes my Topic Dalek-ness was actually beginning to think these conversations would be better suited to that thread. I’ll keep the posts here shorter and less in-depth now. I’ll respond to some of the other posts here in just a while.
Quick note – my Seventh Doctor jumper arrived today! I’m wearing it right now! Yay! Its awesome.
1 March 2014 at 14:54 #25934@purofilion – I’ll respond to your more in-depth Doctor discussion in the other thread; but yes you may call me MD! And indeed I do sleep, but stay up quite a while usually… of course that does mean I get up pretty late most of the time. lol. I do apologize for waffling on and on in this thread!
Re: ‘My Doctor’ – Yes and it seems to differ from person to person of exactly what it means. I consider both the First and Seventh ‘my Doctor’… I dunno how many other folks consider two ‘their Doctor’… but there you go!
@devilishrobby – Again, I’ll respond properly in the other thread… but for now; I am a fair Topic Dalek, who herself right now feels quite silly for letting these posts get very long in this thread. Hah.
And yes, if all the Doctors were too similar… it would get very boring.1 March 2014 at 16:45 #25940Oh annnnnnd I know I haven’t watched part 5 of Quatermass yet, sorry about that. I’ll get to watching both part 5 and 6 at some point, so I’m ready for the next Doctor Who rewatches. Are we only doing RTD episodes for AG?
1 March 2014 at 16:48 #25942@monochromedimension – yup. We’ve already done a Steven Moffat Retrospective.
1 March 2014 at 16:51 #25943@bluesqueakpip – Righty-o. Just making sure…. is it going to be all of them or just some select episodes? I think I’ve watched most of his episodes, just a few remain… but a number of those I haven’t watched since transmission.
1 March 2014 at 16:55 #25944Every. Single. One.
Even if they include farting aliens. Okay? 😉
I dunno if we’re going to include his one two-part script for Matt Smith, since strictly speaking it was part of the Sarah Jane Adventures. If we do, we’ll need to include The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith.
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