Peter Capaldi as the 12th Doctor

[gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar]

This is not much to say, but today Peter turned 60 years old. I wish him a happy birthday. On the 15th, it will be the birthday of Maisie Williams. She played one of my favorite characters of season 9. Happy birthday Peter Capaldi and happy birthday to Maisie Williams, two great actors who brought so much to their roles.

[ichabod @ichabod]

Yikes!  I remember 60.  Well, sort of.  Intimidating, that’s what it was.  Back then.  Eighty, now . . . a year and a half away, and “intimidating” doesn’t begin to describe it.

Back to the gym tomorrow; you can always try to outrun — well, out-*walk* it, I guess.  But no doubt Peter C will be too busy with new possibilities to give it much of a thought.  I doubt that anything on offer will include the kind of athletics that DW demands from its stars!

I hope Jodie Whittaker has good, strong knees — !

[Habemus Doctorem @habemusdoctorem]

I don’t know if this is the correct thread for this.

To all Swedish fan.  The 8th season, PC’s first as the Doctor, is now available on SVT play
(equivalent to BBC iplayer). I am a bit surprised but also hope this is a sign that SVT will
show the new season with Jodie as well.

[Kharis @kharis]

Just spent a lazy afternoon reading this thread from start to finish.  Really enjoyed some of my favorite Forum writers’ contributions.  I’ve been missing the Doctor, especially Capaldi’s Doctor.  Thank you @wolfweed @jimthefish @drben @ichabod @missrori @mudlark @winston @missy @nerys @bluesqeakpip and I really appreciated the new voice of @gamergirlavatar

Sadly mourning the Capaldi era with a plan to do a full re-watch this week.

[gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar]

@kharis Thanks for the kind words. I just finished most of the Sylvester McCoy era and was planning to re-watch Peter’s time as the doctor this week as well. I still miss him but I’m so happy for Jodie’s trailer being release soon. It’s going to be fun to see some of Peter’s greatest moments and some of my favorite episodes.

[Kharis @kharis]

@gamergirlavatar

Yes, it will be delightful to go back through Capaldi’s seasons, especially season 9, ‘Listen’ and ‘The Pilot’ I’m personally eager to revisit.

Going back through Classic Who also sounds like fun.  I find the classic episodes hard to find, and Google Play (which I use) does not have the best selection.  One of my favorite eras which include the 4th Doctor, Sarah Jane Smith and Romana 2 is probably the hardest to find.  I heard there is an animated version of Shada, but yet to get my hands on it.

 

[gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar]

@kharis I’m on the last episode with Romana 2 as a companion and I’m sad to see her leave. After watching Romana’s and Sarah Jane’s time as companions, they have become some of my favorites characters although I can never seem to pick just one favorite companion. Finding Classic Who episodes was really hard for me as well. I recently found them at my library but they don’t have some of the stories. I now have three stories of Colin Baker’s time and Sylvester McCoy’s time left to watch, but I can’t find them. Many of the stories I still can’t watch because people scratch the DVDs, so I have to check out three copies of the same disc in order to make sure I have one that will play. It’s very upsetting, soon I’ll just have to start buying the classic seasons. I’ve also been wanting to watch Shada but I can’t find it. Oh well, we’ll see it some day. Season 9 is going to be fun to watch. Some episodes from season 9 and 10 I’ve only seen once, so I’m eager to see those again. I’m just worried because I’ve to get season 8 and 10 at the library. There’s a reason I’ve only seen The Eaters of Light once. Hope you have a better time re-watching Capaldi’s era and finding classic seasons than I have.

[janetteB @janetteb]

We just (re)watched Deep Breath two nights ago. We have been working through all of AG Who, with a few exceptions. I have enjoyed every Doctor and wish they had all done at least one more season but I don’t think any burst onto the screen with quite the same “Doctorishness” that Capaldi does and that is no mean feat. Capaldi “owns” the role from the offset. I don’t think I would ever tire of watching him as the Doctor. The more often I watch his episodes the better he is.

@gamergirlavatar and @kharis Good luck with finding those episodes. I wish it were possible to help. We have the collection, though not all in best quality. Years ago we found a video of a Shada reconstruction at our local Video hire place. It was not badly done and showed that it would have been a fun story had it been completed. I have not seen the recent version yet.

Cheers
Janette

[gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar]

@janetteb Watching all these different doctors lately makes me wish all of them had at least one more season. It also makes me wish that Doctor Who wasn’t cancel, McCoy could of have two more years and McGann could of have more than such a terrible movie. Capaldi is still my doctor and re-watching his episodes makes me enjoy the stories even more. Recently saw Under the Lake and Before the Flood the other day and saw some of my favorite moments. Capaldi met the challenge of breaking the fourth wall and made it my favorite beginning of all his episodes. He was completely Doctorish.

Thanks for the luck, I need it. Last night I tried to watch The Ambassadors of Death and the disc was scratched. I’m going to return it to the library and find another copy. That Shada reconstruction sounds fascinating. I’m sure it would have been a good story. I’m really happy Tom could return to the part of the Doctor in the animated version. I hope there can be more uncompleted stories turned into animated episodes, bringing these wonderful actors back into their roles.

[Missy @missy]

@kharis:

I too am mourning the loss of PC.

@janetteb:   We just (re)watched Deep Breath two nights ago. We have been working through all of AG Who, with a few exceptions. I have enjoyed every Doctor and wish they had all done at least one more season but I don’t think any burst onto the screen with quite the same “Doctorishness” that Capaldi does and that is no mean feat. Capaldi “owns” the role from the offset. I don’t think I would ever tire of watching him as the Doctor. The more often I watch his episodes the better he is.

My sentiments exactly. I try to think kindly  about a female Doctor and JW in particular, but I can’t. It’s all wrong in my opinion.

As I’ve mentioned ad nauseam , Kris Marshall should have got the role, he’s perfect.

Missy

[ichabod @ichabod]

@missy  I think JW will be fine, though probably more limited in scope by the scripts given her; I just a fascinating documentary on PBS about working artists who are also mothers, and how their art explores areas of experience pretty much utterly ignored til now, unless seen through the eyes of male artists.  I found some of it kinda urpy, to tell the truth, but the central argument — that there are stories for women artists to tell from their own personal perspectives that have simply not been told in that way before, shutting a whole huge span of human experience out of the arts except as seen and told by the half of humanity that *doesn’t ever have and never has had that experience* — quite compelling.

Not that DW could or should go as far as some of these artists have gone; not a show with a young kid audience.  But, as I expect we’ve all noticed, our cultures are thrashing around like clothes in the drying machine.  I came home from a few days in San Francisco (wedding matters) to find that some Right Wing Nut has gotten a proposal on the ballot in that state to split it into three states — Northern, Central, and Southern California (clearly, as a way of blunting the power of liberal San Francisco to control their delegates to the Electoral College and Congress; there is no bottom to the depths of reactionary sliminess and dirty pool, IMO).  Fer instance . . .

In a way, Capaldi’s Doctor stood up for age as opposed to youth in our hero — speaking of depths, of character this time.  Now Whittaker; and no one knows what’s next, but I am for damn sure not making any predictions!  Except that all hell’s gonna break loose among various portions of fandom every week while her first season is on.  Hot time in the old town tonight, I think.

But I gotta say, I don’t care for Kris Marshal in general.  He’s just to goofy and clownish for me, at least from what I’ve seen — a lightweight, in my no doubt blinkered estimation.  But it’s okay; we have Jodi Whittaker instead, whom I’ve thought rather narrow in range, but that could be because I don’t think I’ve seen her in anything but Broadchurch, so I’m ready to be educated.

But not ready to let PC go.  That guy is still my Doctor.  Maybe for good.

 

[Oswald @oswald]

I haven’t really been on  Doctor Who forums, or really had any platform upon which I could voice my opinions on the show, since about 2015 or so. Since then my love of  Doctor Who has only grown exponentially, all thanks to Peter Capaldi.

Twelve is easily my favourite doctor of all, though I have seen only a very limited selection of Classic Who episodes (a lot of Pertwee and Baker, some Davison – that’s about it). He’s so complex and intriguing. He’s so human in that he actually evolved as his tenure progressed and he developed so much as a character, yet he’s still as alien as ever. I just thoroughly enjoyed every single episode of his (even the more lacklustre ones, like ‘Sleep No More’ (personally my least favourite episode of the last few seasons, probably since ‘Love & Monsters’…)) and every single second of the show just oozed his intense and vivacious aura. I can honestly say I’m devastated at the thought of seeing another Doctor in the Tardis, because he’ll always be my Doctor. Don’t even get me started on my love for Bill! I never thought I could fall so head over heels for a character – even harder than I had done for Clara.

Having said that, I’m so excited for Jodie to begin her reign. I just hope I can fall in love with her even half as much as I have done with Peter, and judging from the trailer I don’t think that shall be an issue.

[Hiker @hiker]

@oswald.

 

Strangest post ever. I thought I wrote it! 🙂

Right with you on the PCAP love.

Hiker

 

[Oswald @oswald]

@hiker

It’s nice to see someone else shares the same sentiments that I do! I’ve always felt like Capaldi has been really neglected by people despite him being the perfect Doctor, really. I’m just glad I’m not alone in my love for him and the amazing character he created.

[Hiker @hiker]

<p style=”text-align: left;”>You’re surely not alone!</p>
I’m late to the The Who Party myself; only started to watch at the end of Tennant’s run.

I’ve enjoyed Tennant and Smith, but Capaldi’s run is as if they decided to do Who just for me.

Love his story arc, love his hair arc, love Clara (who I think belongs with him more than 11), love Bill ( just a great companion).

Even the lame episodes…

Sigh. Heart on my sleeve.

 

Hiker

[syzygy @thane16]

@hiker  @oswald  @ichabod and many others including @kharis (waving hello).

Absolutely: Loved PC in this role; loved all the stories -even The Moon As an Egg which, despite the general hilarity, I found rather endearing. And it had Hermoine….? wonderful actress who isn’t seen often enough (on telly at least).

Still, looking forward to the next series.

🙂

[ichabod @ichabod]

@hiker  @thane16  @oswald  PCap is my Doctor too — happy to join the crowd on this.  He was the Doctor for grown-ups (hence the flat merchandise sales since most grown-ups don’t seem to be that much into action figures etc.), and he made the most of it.  It was a wonderful “most”, too, and I think it will wear well on re-watch well into the future.  I do miss the occasional new flash about Capaldi doing this or that — he said he was going to “just disappear” for a while, and has clearly made it so (what do you know, a person in the entertainment business who actually does what he said he was going to do).  And what’s Pearl Mackie been up to?  That limelight sure moves fast.

Meanwhile, JW’s launch draws cl0ser — that’s gonna be a blast!

 

[Kharis @kharis]

Welcome, @hiker & @oswald !  (:

@gamergirlavatar @thane16 @janetteb @missy @ichabod So nice to read all your posts, I also “disappeared for a while” and yes, the limelight moves at the traditional 670616629.3844 per hour for sure, for good and for ill.

I was feeling pretty lackluster after watching the new trailer, which prompted a sad rewatching of my Capaldi and Smith favorites with ice cream and wine.  Had been hoping the trailer would get me excited, but all it did was make me miss my favorite doctors.

 

[MissRori @missrori]

@ichabod and company: I’m not too worried about Mackie.  She did some theatre in London this past spring and has been getting lots of conventions under her belt otherwise.  I hope to meet her at Chicago TARDIS this Thanksgiving.  Whovians take care of their own!  😀

Capaldi definitely has been taking it easy.  Aside from the David Copperfield shoot, he’s only been doing large, regional cons and the occasional appearance elsewhere, like in the AMC Story of Science Fiction documentary, where he notes that he feels the eternal appeal of Who is how it examines death — grief, inevitability, moving on — but says he is discouraged from saying that this is its eternal appeal “because it is not useful in the promotion of a brand”.  I think he was really frustrated by the bean-counters trying to get in the way of what he and Moffat and the rest were doing.  At RegenerationWho he said that when 12’s costume was originally being developed with his input, there were complaints from BBC higher-ups that it wasn’t going to push a lot of toys, and he just told the nitpickers that that wasn’t the point.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@missrori

he said that when 12’s costume was originally being developed with his input, there were complaints from BBC higher-ups that it wasn’t going to push a lot of toys,

Sadly, that seems to epitomise the changes in the Beeb since the early days of Who. The show then was made – relatively speaking – on a shoestring, but the producers, directors and innovators were generally in the driving seat, and ratings and commercial success weren’t so much an issue. Now it is the bean counters and management ‘suits’ who too often call the shots, and they are averse to the innovative, visionary and risky, wanting to stick with formulae that have proved successful, with their eye always on the balance sheet.  In the 1960s and 70s the BBC output was, to say the least, uneven,and there was plenty of pedestrian time-filler, but it seems to me in retrospect that a higher proportion of the output was adventurous and exciting, and the imaginative dimension was more than enough to compensate for the less-than-cinematic production values;  I can’t recall ever being bothered by the latter – the wobbly and less than realistic sets  etc.

[Missy @missy]

@ichabod  I can understand you’re doubts about Kris Marshall, but I’ve seen him in a few things and he is definitely not light weight. In fact, he can come over as quite ruthless, as well as funny and compassionate. Still, that’s my opinion.

@oswald  I feel the same as you about Peter Capaldi and Bill. Although I had great affection for Clara and Donna, Rose and Bill remain my favourite companions. Peter will always be MY Doctor.

@kharis  I Know how you feel, and unlike some I am NOT looking forward to the next series. Telly Tubbies join the Wiggles, this series must be for 5-6 years old children going by the outfit!Unfortunately I must watch at least two episodes so that I may pass judgement. *shudder*

@mudlark  Most kids bought the monsters not the actual Doctor, so I can’t see the problem the BBC had?

Missy

[gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar]

@kharis Oh, I’m still sad about Peter leaving as well, I’ve been re-watching his and Matt’s episode as well but this trailer made me so happy. This has been the easiest time between two doctors I’ve had to go through, and I only needed to wait a day to see Matt’s first episode. Jodie is already The Doctor to me, she was the moment I saw her. I couldn’t even cry when I saw Peter leave because afterwards she was standing there and it made me smile. I can’t wait for October!
@missy I didn’t know Bill and Rose were your favorite companions. Re-thinking Rose’s character I’ve to say I enjoy her more than I have the past couple of years. I re-watched the last two episodes of season 10 again the scenes where Bill is turned into a cyberman and when she gets shot at, mistaken for a monster, always make me cry.

[Missy @missy]

@gamergirlavatar

To be fair I haven’t watched the trailer, just the bit at the end of the final episode – that was enough. Like the last Doctor, I’m against karaoke, mime, selfies and female doctors.

It’s good that you are happy though.

Missy

[ichabod @ichabod]

@kharis  Had been hoping the trailer would get me excited, but all it did was make me miss my favorite doctors.

On the other hand, you also got ice cream and wine . . .

Well, it’s just the wait now.

Thing that frustrates me is what @mudlark says above, and the inevitability of it.  When DW was a low budget, quirky show for family viewing that had a limited fandom even in the UK, it could afford to be impulsive and a bit goofy because — well, if it fell apart and went off the air, these things happen (see, original Star Trek, that actually didn’t last that long).

BUT — once the thing becomes a huge success with a growing world-wide viewership and a bigger budge to help lure those viewers in, suddenly there’s so much more at stake for so many people (now including vendors of DW kitsch, people who stage massive DW publicity stuff, etc.) that you run into the risky territory of competitive viewing numbers — and that’s Lowest Common Denominator territory: stay bland and perky so as not to upset anybody anywhere, everybody just wants “light entertainment” for their family evenings, and the qualities that made the thing go in the first place get filed down to nothing, in an effort to safeguard a much bigger investment and  a much bigger pay-off.

The perils of success in the entertainment business are not imaginary.  Neither, I imagine, are the pressures on the Beeb to Make More Money with DW.

So I worry.  And I’m also not a fan of karaoke and mime (although I think a female Doctor will be fine — just maybe not for viewers like me, if she comes with a significant degree of shallowing-up and dumbing-down, and more flash, less depth).

[Missy @missy]

@ichabod

A female doctor isn’t fine – not to me. One might as well have  female Jesus – why not?

Yes, he was real, but so what, let’s try something different.

Why she has three companions is beyond me.

Anyhow, that’s my opinion for what it’s worth. *sigh*

Missy

 

 

[syzygy @thane16]

@missrori

Peter Capaldi… notes that he feels the eternal appeal of Who is how it examines death — grief, inevitability, moving on

Ah, I didn’t notice this before. And it explains, how, as a seven year old, who lost her mum, I found something in Who which examined the varying reactions to death and rebirth.  I never laughed when I watched it. Others recall me frowning and nodding for about four or five years. It acted as a promo for “how to behave and think when someone you love has vanished.”

So, after those mutable years, eventually my feelings about the Doctor were set. Like jelly (or jello if you’re American).

Puro.

[Missy @missy]

Lawks I sound petulant. Can’t help it, I feel so strongly about it.

Missy

[ichabod @ichabod]

@thane16   Puro  — I think I read that during Capaldi’s run a lot of older female fans (or younger female fans when they started, attracted by Tennant, who had *become* somewhat older female fans) went all in for this Doctor.  There were lots of posts, at first, among young female fans lamenting that Capaldi was “too old”, “a mean old man”, “too gloomy”, and the like.  Counterbalancing that (on sites like tumblr) was much glowing appreciation for the “Yum, he’s a Silver Fox” factor, and “it’s about time we got a grown-up for grown-ups”.

But now that I think of it, getting older also means finding yourself advancing further and further into the ante-room of Death, with your friends and your family and your cultural icons from the days of your youth being snatched beyond Death’s Door from all around you — “lost”.  Moffatt said he meant to “grow the Doctor up”, and I think he did, in so many respects . . . especially in regard to death and loss and how wearing they can be on survivors (“She is survived by . . . “).  Maybe for many older women the positive response to Series 8-9-10 was just what you’re talking about, Puro, but at the other end of life — seeing what they themselves were going through addressed in this clever space adventure show, and validated as worth attending too by this Doctor’s own very perceptible anger, sorrow, and anxiety about Death and loss.  After all, as the 13th Doctor, he came out of so much experience of both, and he came out wearing it, the way you do, not strolling away whistling.

I think Capaldi and Moffat saw that element — the dread of Death, the pain of loss — threaded through the Doctor’s lives, and deliberately set out to bring it forward (the way life brings it forward willy-nilly as we non-fictional people age) — through the relationships between the Doctor and Clara, River, and Bill, among others.

Certainly I felt the pull of this, but, being right in the middle of a fairly protracted personal experience of it, I only thought about my own situation, not those of others like me — other women of middle age and beyond, losing parents, siblings, friends, children dying prematurely, and of course spouses.  Women live longer, so there are so many of us — more all the time.  [Just this year so far, the SF community has lost Ursula LeGuin, Harlan Ellison, and Gardner Dozois, among others, following the loss of editor David Hartwell earlier; and many of my cohort report increasingly difficult health issues.]

What they tell me about widowhood is that it’s harder the second year: people tend to assume that you must be “over” it by then, because they want you to be.  But you’re not.

But — where I was going with this is, I wonder whether my contingent, the older women looking after or waiting with bated breath for the bd news about, sick relatives, friends, and colleagues — whether that crowd will watch JW, and stories written by a much more varied set of writers, and say to themselves, “Ah, good, that’s one good thing done . . . ” and, slowly or quickly, fall away, because we are no longer being addressed.  I can see that happening, and of course it would be fine with the Beeb, as we can easily be replaced, and then some, by younger viewers — little kids, bigger kids.  The next DW horde.  [I’m speaking primarily about middle-aged-and-up women not our of an exclusionary bias, but only because that’s the experience I can at speak from.]

I won’t be surprised if that happens.  I’m just glad I was here for what happened before that.  S8-9-10 sang to me like some sad and zany opera, and I’ll be forever grateful that the creatives on the show, during all of New Who actually, took that chance with darkness, age, and an inescapable awareness of Death — in a “kids’ show” about adventuring in fantastical space and time.  I also hope that if that audience segment is significantly thinned by such departures, it’s not taken as proof that women viewers prefer male protagonists and heroes to female ones.

The thing about grown-ups is — it’s so much more complicated than that.

 

 

[ichabod @ichabod]

@missy  You feel the way you feel, and you’ve plenty of company, judging by some of the comments I’ve seen elsewhere on the choice of JW to be Doctor 13.

Mind you, I think we might have been far better off with a female Jesus — only she would have been done away with a whole lot sooner, IMO.  Uppity women — faugh!  Wasn’t there a great philosopher in Byzantium, I think, who was murdered by a cabal of pissed of men for being female and daring to not only think, but open her mouth and talk about what she thought?  The name that comes to mind is “Hypatia”, probably wrong, and it might have been Alexandria . . . but the story is the story.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@ichabod

The person you are thinking of is Hypatia of Alexandria and, although no surviving writings or commentaries can be attributed to her with any certainty, she was an eminent and highly respected Neoplatonist philosopher, mathematician and astronomer in the late 4th/early 5th century CE.   Alexandria at that time was still a great centre of learning, and she taught students from all over the Mediterranean, both pagan and Christian, as well as giving public lectures. Although she herself had no particular quarrel with Christians, as a pagan she eventually fell foul of a group of fanatical Christians.  She was rumoured to have advised Orestes, the Roman Prefect of Alexandria, in a dispute with Cyril, Bishop of Alexandria, which led to her murder in 415 CE by a group of monks who pretty much tore her to pieces.  Afterwards she was revered as a pagan martyr and eventually, in the medieval period when the facts had been forgotten, adopted as a Christian  martyr. Such are the twists of fate!

There is a film, Agora, based loosely on her life. In it, inevitably, she is portrayed as young and beautiful, with a love interest, and the circumstances of her death are toned down. In fact she would have been in her forties or fifties, if not older, although the exact date of her birth is unknown.

[ichabod @ichabod]

@mudlark  Right on the money, and thanks — that’s a lot more than my dinky memory coughed up, but I’m glad to find that the darn thing still works that well.    So it was for “religious” as well as misogynist reasons that they killed her?  God sakes; how could she be young and beautiful and still have had the time to rack up all that knowledge and a reputation plus being called to advise the great and the “good”?!  Movies on historical themes are plague spots on the brilliant face of history as we can still know how it really was, at least to some degree.  Though I suppose the same could be said of a great deal of historical fiction, which was one of the passions of my teen-age reading addiction.  And in an earlier time, it was songs and poems, I guess, and sensationalist broadsheets, that memorialized such violent acts against men and women, probably with similar inaccuracies and added frills and thrills.

It amazes me that we think we know history.  If our perceptions of our own lives can be seen as just shadows of the real thrown on the walls of our cave, our knowledge of the past seems like just shadows of shadows; except for things like the Thor hammer pendant.  Even then we can go decades before realizing that the skeleton of that warrior buried with weapons and — horses? — was female.  But that’s the thrill that’s part of keeping archaeologists digging, isn’t it — to touch the real, ancient thing, before the interpretations start flying.

 

[janetteB @janetteb]

Veering off topic here but Agora is an excellent film. there is a good breakdown of the history in the Guardians, now long defunct “Reel History”. You will need to search to find it. It does indeed seem that it was more politics and religion behind the demise of Hypatia and not sexism though that was certainly a factor with the christian zealots.

I have been following the discussion with interest but not posting. The last three series did bring a new depth to Who. I feel as though Moffat initially was working within the parameter of “light entertainment”  and Matt Smith was best suited to that lighter tone though  I suspect that as he matures Matt will be certainly able to handle roles with depth. Even though Matt conveyed the sense of old man in a young man’s body Capaldi was better able to carry the sense of a Doctor bearing the weight of over a Thousand Years of living, all the grief, anger, as well as the joy was fermenting inside him. In Matt we saw the light face, the happy smile put on to amuse the young relatives and friends, but Capaldi was “himself”, no disguise, no light pretense. He had an enormous capacity to enjoy life. I loved his smile in Last Christmas when he drives the sleigh for instance, but he carried a deep well of grief that was always evident.

@ichabod I really enjoy doing historical research, or even researching for the boys’ projects. Finding information be it about something that is happening now or details about forgotten lives from one hundred years ago is always a thrill. I feel as thought I am opening small windows onto the past. One can only see so much and there is always so much more that is lost and cannot be retrieved, at least without a Tardis. What wouldn’t I give to be able to take a trip back and be a fly on the wall, just to resolve some of those discoverable mysteries. (I have just started a new history project, which is not good as I have yet to finish the last but could not resist dipping in to the research.)

Cheers

Janette

 

[Anonymous @]

Hi

I’m new here and this is my favorite Doctor, I’m not sure if this is active any more but I’m looking forward to gush with other like minded people about this fantastic Doctor and actor

[MissRori @missrori]

@tempisfugit Hi, I would have replied sooner but I was out of town for a convention and then needed some time to recover. 😉

This forum is still active, along with the episode specific ones. 🙂 12 is my Doctor too and he was far from my first! (Gushgushgush)

[Anonymous @]

<span class=”useratname”>@missrori</span> Hi! I’m glad to hear that 😀 I just love this Doctor

[Missy @missy]

@tempusfugit

Welcome, and I couldn’t agree more. although i really enjoyed all of the Doctor’s from Christopher Eccleston onward, Peter Capaldi won the gold for me.

Missy

[Anonymous @]

@missy Thank you. I didn’t have “my” Doctor until him. I enjoyed all Doctors too but he has me glued to the screen

[ichabod @ichabod]

@temusfugit  I enjoyed all Doctors too but he has me glued to the screen

Yep, me too.  Loved his work in the show, and I’m delighted to hear that he’s been back at work — he’s Mr. Macawber in Iannucci’s upcoming modern version of “David Copperfield”.  Bring it on!  I love Iannucci’s work, too — anybody see his cheerfully cynical bloodbath, “The Death of Stalin”?  Now, that was a breath of rank air!  Just right for our times in America (among lots of other places), IMO.

[Anonymous @]

@ichabod I only have seen The thick of it and In the loop from Ianucci, which I found hilarious. I’m looking forward to the David Copperfield one

[janetteB @janetteb]

@ichabod I have not seen any of Ianucci’ work, not even The Thick of it but I do have a doco he did about Charles Dickens and can’t think of a better person to adapt the great man’s work. I am really looking forward to D.C. too. Peter is an interesting choice for Micawber. I have Death of Stalin but have not watched it yet.

Cheers

Janette

[Missy @missy]

@tempusfugit  I only have seen The thick of it and In the loop from Ianucci, which I found hilarious. I’m looking forward to the David Copperfield one

I have both the above and I agree, very, very funny.

There is one thing which bothers me about David Copperfield, why Dev Patel? What an odd thing to do.

I have seen a lot of Dev Patel’s work and admire him, but I don’t think Dickens had a brown skinned David in mind.

Will we have a Caucasian Othello next?

Missy

[Anonymous @]

@missy I haven’t seen Dev Patel, and agree with you.

[syzygy @thane16]

@missy @tempusfugit

mmm. Not sure why that irks me but it does.

Actually I know why.

Patel is an extraordinary actor with wins and nominations across the planet. His role in Lion was unbelievable. His work in Newsroom subtle and clever.

I’d watch him all night and all day -no matter that he’s….English, educated at Harrow, no less.

So, no, he wasn’t born in Nairobi: that distinction goes to his parents.

Brown skinned, honestly.

Thane16

[syzygy @thane16]

@tempusfugit @missy

Will we have a Caucasian Othello next?

We have & they did: Originally Othello was played by white men.

There is also the matter of Nicholas Burt & Richard Burbage  🙂 In 1825 the first darker skinned professional arrived….& the rest is history.

Puro.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@missy
I don’t think Dickens had television in mind, either. So? I also doubt he imagined his David as Jewish or gay, but that’s acting for you. People pretend to be someone else. 🙂 Incidentally, non white actors who’ve already appeared in Dickens adaptations include Who alumni Freema Agyeman and Sophie Okonedo.

There were probably about 40,000 people of Indian background in the UK in the 1840’s – we were heavily involved in conquering and trading with India at the time. They were mostly sailors, students studying at British Universities, diplomats, soldiers’ wives – you name it. Iannucci’s already said he wanted the casting and production to reflect modern London rather than be 100% historically accurate; but David Copperfield can be made mixed race without damaging the novel.

In fact, it adds to the novel. It can be used to hint why the Murdstones hate David so, why they dump the boy in a labelling factory after his mother’s death – and why his Great Aunt preferred not to have anything to do with him. Until he turns up on her doorstep, abandoned and in desperate need of help.

To be charitable, colour-blind casting can require something of a mental adjustment the first time people come across it. But we don’t refuse a lead role to a fine actor because their hair colour/eye colour/height isn’t as specified by the author. What’s so different about skin colour?

[Caucasian actors have played Othello in modern times, by the way. The idea that it’s solely reserved for black actors is a myth. But the play Othello is about race and prejudice, so it’s generally a black actor who gets the job.]

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@missy @tempusfugit @thane16 @bluesqueakpip

Also, given that Othello was Moor, there’s no particular reason to suppose that he would be black in the sense that we use that term today. To Shakespeare’s “black” would refer to anyone darker than and Englishmen, at a time when sun-tanning was definitely not A Thing.

So anyone from Turkey to the Berber coast would be describes as “black”.

Obviously the solution is to cast Idris Elba and get him to do it in whiteface.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@missy  @thane16 @bluesqueakpip

It isn’t all that long ago, and well within my lifetime, that it was still more usual for white actors to be cast in the role of Othello. In Edinburgh in 1965 I saw the acclaimed National Theatre production of Othello with Olivier in the title role and Frank Finlay as Iago*.  Olivier was blacked up – face, arms and front of torso, and with facial prosthetics, and at that date and in that context it wasn’t a matter for particular comment. Iago refers to Othello as a ‘black ram’ but, as @pedant  says, at the time Shakespeare was writing and what he had in mind, was far more likely to be someone from a  North African country bordering the Mediterranean than someone from sub-Saharan Africa, so the exact shade of brown in the skin is scarcely the most important consideration.

For that matter, I have also seen an effective production of the Scottish Play with an all black cast, and it doesn’t take too much effort of the imagination to transfer the scenario from early medieval Scotland to a 20th century African country, any more than it does to a 1930s European setting.

The NT on tour were alternating Othello with Congreve’s ‘Love for Love; and therein lies a tale of the soft heartedness of a theatre manager, though I will withhold that anecdote unless any misguided person is avid for further off topic ‘musings of Mudlark’.

* In the original production in London the role of Desdemona was played by Maggie Smith, but not, alas, in the touring production that I saw; and I’m ashamed to say I cannot remember who it was that I did see on the night in question.  It was Frank Finlay’s Iago that struck me more forcibly at the time

 

 

[syzygy @thane16]

@mudlark

and therein lies a tale of the soft heartedness of a theatre manager, though I will withhold that anecdote unless any misguided person is avid for further off topic ‘musings of Mudlark’.

*I am!*

[syzygy @thane16]

@pedant

Obviously the solution is to cast Idris Elba and get him to do it in whiteface.

Certainly. I would applaud this, via flapping,  from the cheep-seats.

Kindest,

Heron.

[Missy @missy]

@thane16

I understand your feelings.  I too feel irked when people, deliberately or not, misunderstand what I mean.

Dev IS a very talented young actor, I have seen most of his work and was not criticising him.

I sat here for minutes attempting to come up with something which wouldn’t get the PC Brigade’s knickers in a twist to the extent that I’d be considered a racist. Anglo Indian was out because both his parents are Gujarati Indian Hindus, so, I won’t write a list, I felt that ‘brown’ was the softer option whilst trying to get my valid point over.

One assumes that one of his parents will be Indian otherwise it won’t make sense! White mother and father? Was he adopted then? Is that clearer?

@bluesqueakpip

Good post, completely devoid of sarcasm – thank you.  It would be interesting to have an all Indian, Negro or European cast, as long as all of them were. I didn’t know that Othello had been played by a white actor (why do people never get irate when they are called white?) Damned good idea. I did, however, know that Richard 111, has had an all Japanese cast.

Finally, I prefer the original reasons for Murdstone disliking David, and Betsy Trotwood, but that’s a personal preference.

Missy

 

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