Rosa

This topic contains 249 replies, has 40 voices, and was last updated by  TGSOE 5 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #64796
    Mr F @misterf55

    An all time low. Not for the episode which was well made but for the political preaching and hijacking of Doctor Who and weak storyline. A 79th Century fascist coming back to change things – really ?

    So far the series has been poor . JW is a good  actress (not actor) but she is not doing very well so far in playing the  Doctor, The great thing about Doctor Who is re-generation and I am looking forward to the next one !

    #64797
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    Who hasn’t been hijacked. Have you ever thought about what the Daleks and Cybermen represent?

    #64799
    MissRori @missrori

    @bluesqueakpip and others suggesting an end-of-season villain pileup — I remember back when Series 8 was ongoing some reviewers were wondering if the Nethersphere scenes with Missy greeting the characters who died was setting up a big confrontation between them and the Doctor in the season finale, but it didn’t work out that way exactly… 😀

    @juniperfish I was off from work the night/day the Grenfell Tower fire took place, and in the U.S. it was the top story on the overnight network news shows — the wee-hours ones just marking time.  I think it might have been a bigger story here if, shortly before the national morning shows went live, there hadn’t been the Congressional baseball game shooting.  Coverage of that pretty much meant the Grenfell disaster was buried in the American press despite the awful death toll.

    #64800

    @misterf55

    Five, four, three, two….

    #64801
    Cath Annabel @cathannabel

    I thnk I’d been preconditioned to expect teachy/preachy from one or two comments in the press, and yes, there was an element of both, but in fact, on reflection and as I allowed myself to respond to the drama as it unfolded, it was splendidly done, and very moving.  Given its intended audience and time of broadcast, it could not ‘show’ the brutality as graphically as, say, Mississippi Burning, but it conveyed it in a different and subtler way without flinching from the reality.

    The expressions on the faces of the white couple of Ryan tries to give them back something the woman has dropped reminded me of John Howard Griffin’s book, Black like me.  He was a white journalist who artificially darkened his skin and lived as a black man in the South for a while in 1959 – so just  a few years after Rosa Parks made her protest, seeing it as the only way he could really know what it was like to be black.  I read this as a teenager (re-reading it recently I was more aware of the problems with the concept but nonetheless it was a dangerous and bold thing to do, and radical even to want to know what it was like not to be white…) and what stayed with me was the experience of the ‘hate stare’ that he noticed from so many white people, whether or not he interacted with them.

    I did  question why WhitDoc didn’t forewarn them before heading out into the mean streets of Montgomery in 1955.  An impetuous young black guy and a young woman of clearly non-white heritage, both of whom having had plenty of experiences of racism, but neither having ever experienced systematic, legal, official racism – they were bound to come a cropper within minutes.   But in a way it’s consistent with her approach – she doesn’t really really know these people but she believes in them, in their ability to handle the extraordinary and to be extraordinary.

    And as everyone has said, the most devastating moment in a way – because it wasn’t foreseen (well, not by us at any rate) – was Graham’s realisation that he would have to be a part of history, and not the part that Grace would have wanted, or that he could be proud of.

    @missrori We said ‘evil Cap’n Jack too!!

     

    #64802
    Mr F @misterf55

    Mmm. Was Doctor Who really meant to be real ? It’s science fiction and supposed to be a family show. I wasn’t happy with the Nazi Dalek either. I can imagine there were a few difficult parent/child conversations around the country after Rosa. Is that what Doctor Who should be about ? So what next –  are we going back in time to prevent the Brexit vote, sort out rights for transexuals, me too campaigners, and how nasty the<b> British were in India in 1947 –  oh hang on that is coming ! The BBCPC brigade must be loving it !</b>

    #64803
    nerys @nerys

    I loved it! For me, this episode hit it out of the park. The Doctor and her companions are melding together and learning why what the Doctor does is so important. It reminded me of so many of the classic Doctor Who episodes where the TARDIS drops them off in unexpected, unplanned places, and then they realize why they are there.

    I admit that I had become a little tired of the focus being so much on the relationship between the Doctor and his companion. It’s not that I don’t want any character development in that direction, but it had become such a focal point that I felt we were losing out on those moments that felt more spontaneous, rather than something generated specifically for or by them. (If that makes any sense.)

    I must remember to stay away from Doctor Who’s Facebook page. Far too much “It’s too PC!” whining over there. I’ll take a socially conscious show over a vapid or morally bankrupt one any day!

    #64804
    Cath Annabel @cathannabel

    @misterf55 Well, scifi and fantasy have always dealt with reality, obliquely and through analogy.  That’s kind of what they’re for, at least the more intelligent and thoughtful examples of the genres.   And as numerous contributors have pointed out, Who has always found ways of talking about reality, including racism, sexism, etc etc, throughout its history.  Difficult parent/child conversations following Rosa?  Excellent.  And the Doctor didn’t go back in time to change history but to prevent it being changed, to protect a key moment in history from being subverted.  Ah well, probably enough time spent on responding to this – ‘The BBCPC brigade’ is something of a giveaway that this isn’t a genuine, thought out contribution to the discussion.

    #64805
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @misterf55

    I can imagine there were a few difficult parent/child conversations around the country after Rosa. Is that what Doctor Who should be about ?

    Like what exactly? ‘Mummy, Daddy, is racism always wrong?’ Can’t see there’s any room for controversy or ambiguity in anything that Rosa raised last night.

    So what next –  are we going back in time to prevent the Brexit vote, sort out rights for transexuals, me too campaigners, and how nasty the British were in India in 1947

    One can only hope.

    #64806
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @misterf55

    I know right. How could any parent possibly predict that this episode would have racism in it? And then to face questions from one’s own child about racial segregation and the civil rights movement?! As a parent myself, I can tell you that is absolutely not my job. I’ve written a very strongly-worded email to the BBC, don’t you worry. And I capitalised the words that make me feel most angry.

     

    #64807
    nerys @nerys

    @misterf55 JW is a good actress (not actor)

    Why not “actor”? “Actress” is in that mob of needlessly gender-specific terms we are burdened with. “Actor” refers to a person who acts, which perfectly describes Jodie Whittaker (along with all the other actors who have played the Doctor).

    @thane16 Sadly I don’t think The Civil Rights Movement can ever be over.

    Given the current state of things, I fear you are right. It seems we are in a “one step forward, two steps back” world.

     

    #64808
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    The Doctor is canonically a gender-fluid alien, from a race of gender-fluid aliens.

    Time Lords likely regard Earth cultures which insist on a rigid gender binary, given ample scientific evidence for complexity amongst our species (e.g. intersex births, Klinefelter sydrome XXY) as woefully off-piste, let alone from their own perspective of regeneration and shifting embodiment.

    Stands to reason the Doctor would support transgender rights.

    #64809
    Cath Annabel @cathannabel

    From my Twitter feed.  ‘Difficult parent/child conversations’?  No, just the kind of conversations that parents and children should be having, and brilliant when they’re inspired by great drama on t’telly.

    I can’t stop thinking about <span class=”twitter-hashflag-container”><s>#</s><b>DoctorWho</b></span>. My sons (7 & 10) and I talked about it for an hour afterwards. They had so many questions. We ended up watching a 1995 interview with Rosa Parks on YouTube. What an inspiring piece of television. Its importance cannot be overstated.

    #64810

    **Pausing for a few moments to point at Mr F, our representative from Sockpuppetvania, and laugh**

    @jimthefish

    Forgot to mention something: the thing that absolutely blew out any shred of residual doubt about Whittaker’s Doctor was “Don’t threaten me”. Delivered on that tricky axis between steely resolve and matter of fact truthiness.

    #64811
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @misterf55 don’t you dare try and make basic human rights sound like a political agenda. Everyone deserves to be treated equal, and if you want to try and deny that then there’s the door.

    #64812
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @pedant

    Yeah, good point. I do like that’s she’s pretty fearless. And on reflection, this more pragmatic approach to problems is pretty cool too.

    @everyone

    I know I’ve just prodded that particular cage, but probably the best thing is not to encourage the troll contingent and they’ll soon get bored and go away….

    #64813
    Mr F @misterf55

    Look there’s a misunderstanding here. I am not racist or sexist etc etc  but Doctor Who is not the right programme to use as a platform for be voicing the injustices in the world.

    #64814
    Arbutus @arbutus

    That was devastatingly good. Painful to watch at times, and a weep fest at the end. Really beautifully done in every way that I can think of right now, although I suppose when I watch it again the emotional impact will be less and I will see flaws. None at the moment, though.

    At a time when white liberals like myself who grew up in the sixties and seventies have been jarringly reminded of how much hasn’t changed, it was great to see a story that acknowledges what has improved, what has not, and what never will (mostly without beating us over the head with it). What a great conversation parents will be able to have with their kids after watching that!

    I’ll come back a bit later with dryer eyes, etc., to express some more rational thought, but just want to add right now that I am loving Graham so, so much!

    #64815
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @misterf55 on the chance you’re not deliberately trolling (though the insistence on ‘actress’ was a red flag): Doctor Who has always been used as a platform for voicing injustices. As has a lot of science fiction. It’s a very political genre. Now often writers do this by, say, examining colonial issues through people arriving at alien planets, or creating a eugenics obsessed alien race. But this is a time travel show. The Tardis is, as she says, a time ship. The original conception of Doctor Who included educational historical episodes.

    #64816
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @misterf55

    The show has done little but give voice to injustices across the world. It’s almost its mission statement and has been making politically charged stories right from 1963.

    If you fail to grasp that, I have to wonder what show you’ve been watching or indeed what attracts you to a site like this, beyond a desire to provoke.

    #64817
    nerys @nerys

    @craig With a title referencing the first ever episode of AG Who,…

    OK, I admit that it took me forever to get this. I’m slow sometimes!

    #64818
    Hiker @hiker

    So, the Doctor has a coat expertly repaired by Rosa Parks!

    Yeah!

     

    Hiker

    #64819
    DogBoyTheCat @dogboythecat

    I’m not sure how to say this without causing a tsunami of nasty responses, but…. here goes…

    I’ve been a Whovian since way back in the Patrick Traughton days.

    I have no problem with a female Doctor, and I think Jodie Whitaker is doing a pretty good job so far.

    But do we really need the heavy-handed “social justice” narrative?

    It seemed like every 90 seconds or so, in the last episode, somebody was making an “Important Statement”.

    Maybe this is a 0ne-off, and they’ll get back to the usual interesting adventures, but I get the feeling that, with the hugely favorable response, this will become a repeating theme. Please bear in mind that an occasional “Very Special Episode” can be a good thing, but…. when you do nothing but preach, people get turned off.

    #64820

    @dogboythecat

    It might be more convincing if you spelt Troughton correctly.

    ”social justice” narrative

    Or “decency” as it is known outside fuckwit circles.

    Which has always been at the core of Doctor Who’s storytelling.

    As I said upthread, some of the dialogue was a bit spelly-outy for my tastes, but I have been around the track at least as many times as you and have known many of the stories that Who uses for mumblemumble decades. But I do not assume that my 10 year old niece knows them, and friends who have been able to have conversations with their kids about racism are profoundly grateful for the chance.

    If you want to characterise a really quite mild depiction of one of the most brutally racist environments in a democracy, ever, and an extraordinary act of moral and physical courage as “social justice narrative”, that is about as a big a statement of privilege as is conceivable and you might want to, you know –  check it.

    This is th BBC doing what it is chartered to do: inform, educate and entertain. All in one package.

    #64821
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @dogboythecat  This is a Whovian space which thrives because of the swift dispatch of those who have simply come to troll, it’s true, and we had a rather odious visitor just recently, so…

    But, assuming you’re not trolling, the reason this kind of comment about “social justice” “turning people off” is so frustrating to encounter, and often gets a negative reaction, is because:

    a) Which “people” are being turned off? You, I assume, from your comment. This fallacy, that the way you are reacting to the show is the way everyone is reacting (or ought to react) just requires some basic Googling. A whole bunch of people LOVED this episode – check out a variety of Whovian spaces e.g. Tumblr, Twitter, The Mary Sue, Den of Geek… Of course you are entitled to say you didn’t enjoy it personally, but that brings me to;

    b) Complaining that “social justice” is a “turn off” signals that you are someone coming from a (relative) place of privilege, where you have the luxury of regarding social justice as an unecessary bit of preaching. For so many people on this planet (and no doubt in other galaxies too) social justice is an urgent necessity. A comment snarking about “social justice” in relation to an episode about the struggle for racial equality, comes across (speaking for myself at least) as lacking the imagination to empathise with other peoples’ lived experiences (especially people unlike yourself). Which just isn’t an interesting look.

    Doctor Who (as many have said above) has always tackled themes of social justice. The Doctor lives for social justice for goodness sake!

    Just think about the David Tennant story New Earth, where the cat-nuns have created incredible medical technology at the expense of an enslaved class of people kept in vats and used as disease guinea-pigs.  It would be antithetical to who the Doctor is for him to swan in, high-five the cat-nuns, and swan off. Of course, he helps free the enslaved people – that’s who he is.

    I bet you didn’t complain on a message board somewhere that that story was a “social justice turn-off”. So, I suppose, just ask yourself, why does a real historical event about social injustice from earth’s past get that reaction from you, when the Doctor simply behaves as she has always behaved – in solidarity with the oppressed?

     

    #64822
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @pedant jinx and well, quite.

    #64823
    DogBoyTheCat @dogboythecat

    First of all… let me make clear that I do not come from a “place of privilege”.

    I’m black, and originally from West Philly…. and not the good part, either.

    My point was that it is not a particularly cost-effective idea to make every episode a “very special episode”.

    It wasn’t the message itself that bothered me. It was the complete lack of subtlety.

    #64824

    @dogboythecat

    And a Whovian since the Traughton (sic) days….

    uh-hu

    #64825
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @dogboythecat

    I’d certainly agree that the last little speechifying coda was dramatically unnecessary, although thematically I’d say it worked, And as others have pointed out, Who has always been a social justice programme and it’s never been above a bit of preaching — the moments that are often brought up by fans of the classic show as emblematic of its greatness are just that. Think Hartnell’s ‘love, pride, fear, hate’, Troughton’s ‘evil must be fought’ to Baker’s ‘indomitable’.

    I think this episode was judged nigh on perfectly in its approach and I think to consider it a ‘special’ episode is probably a mistake and that there’s an interesting question to be asked here why this episode has left many fans feeling so uncomfortable.

    But Who is not a refuge from social issues. It never has been. Rosa is just continuing that tradition. In many ways, this is as traditional Who as you could possibly get.

    #64826
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @dogboythecat  I don’t really know what you mean by “cost effective”. The viewing figures for “Rosa” are in and all three of the episodes in this Series 11 of Nu Who so far have smashed it:

    Rosa Viewing Figures: Series 11 Historical Solidifies Doctor Who Ratings

    Chibnall, the new showrunner, is definiely consciously pitching to younger viewers. They are the future of Who after all, and Rosa Parks’ story is brand new for them.

    #64827
    Hiker @hiker

    @dogboythecat

    I’m interpreting/hoping that you think this episode is a difficult, if worthy, topic and it makes people uncomfortable to realize that the USA was so blatantly, no-doubt-about-it racist.  Hard viewing, but also inspirational and emotional.

    If you come to Doctor Who for more science- fantasy escapism, (yes, I do too) you are hoping from that viewpoint that not every episode will be this weighty. FWIW, I think a similar story could have been told with aliens, but it does hit harder when it’s based on our world, our reality. And if it inspires some children to look deeper into this bit of history, that’s a win.

    I’m not sure what you meant by cost-effective. You mean the the show’s budget? I don’t think the bus cost that much and generally, who cares?

     

    Hiker

    #64829
    syzygy @thane16

    @misterf55 @dogboythecat

    I’m circling you. Thinking better of it. Then not. I am well educated like a lot of people. I spent many months investigating speeches by people stronger, smarter, braver than me (some like 14 year old Emmett Till): MLK; Medgar Evers; Rosa Parks; Laura Nelson; Ida B. Wells-Barnett; Fannie Lou Hamer (“actresses,” some). As others stronger and smarter than me @jimthefish @juniperfish said, the show delves deeply into “issues.” It’s never been a cowardly programme. An Unearthly Child is about sacrifice; who ‘matters’ and who doesn’t. @dogboythecat  there’s nothing ‘subtle’ about Till’s murder.

    King: “We are done with tokenism which leads to do-nothingism and stand-still-ism” and Frank X Walker, “people who think the Civil Rights Mvt began in the 1960s betrays the memory of every single body vanished on the way home from school.”

    Evers: “When you hate the only one who suffers is you because most of them you hate don’t know it and the rest don’t care. We must keep speaking (in Michael V. Williams. 2011).”

    And: “all these people who devoted themselves, sacrificed themselves…to parasites, eaten out with jealousy, envy, longing for the lives of others, to feed on them, on the memory of love and loss.” Sounds like Doctor King or Evers.

    All the Doctors have spoken, “In all the years I have been taking care of you…you in return have been  taking care of me Susan…One day I shall come back. Til then no regrets…Go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me  I am not mistaken in mine.”

    Thank you for reading, Thane16.

     

     

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 4 weeks ago by  syzygy. Reason: masses of code appeared with post. 500+ characters
    #64831
    DogBoyTheCat @dogboythecat

    I just watched the episode again.

    While it had its moments, some of them quite good, I just can’t say that it was a very good episode.  Perhaps a “Very Important” or “Very Special” episode, but really not that good overall.  Try watching it again and forgetting, for the moment, the racially-charged setting.

    Look at it simply as a story.

    Every character, outside of the “Tardis Crew” was one-dimensional….both the heroes and the villains. It just seems to me that the writers were trying more to get acclaim and awards than trying to write a good story. And yes…. they will get awards for it. But they’ll be for the subject matter, and not for the actual quality of the episode.

    #64832
    janetteB @janetteb

    Watched Rosa last night. (we are catching up at last..) General consensus was better than last week’s episode. In fact when the boys heard that it was not written by Chibnell they were disappointed and suggested that Malorie Blackman be made showrunner instead. Despite the seriousness of the subject there was humour in the script, the companions had more to do and the characterisation was consistent. The “villain” was a thumbs down but I was pleased by the reference to Stormcage. The real drama was in the historical events which provided “villains” enough without having a token alien. This was a story whose heart was modern people going back into the past and the conflicts that arise.

    At times it did feel like a school history lesson. Unfortunately I fear that it is much needed as with Trump at the helm in the U.S. and reactionary governments (like our bunch of buffoons) it feels as though we are currently on a backwards trajectory.

    I suspect that Chibnell is establishing canon more so than previous showrunners which I like.

    At times I feel that Whittaker is trying to hard but  I recall feeling exactly the same about Capaldi in his early episodes so suspect that is just me. I certainly don’t get that impression now when rewatching those episodes and hopefully will be the same when I rewatch these ones. It takes time to adjust to a new Doctor.

    So overall the approval rating was high for that episode and looking forward to seeing more history episodes.

    Cheers

    Janette.

    #64833
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @dogboythecat

    What do you mean by ‘one-dimensional’?

    The villain was ‘one dimensional’ because he essentially refused to reveal anything about himself. Rosa Parks certainly wasn’t one-dimensional – we found out quite a bit about why this woman would decide she’d had enough. Even James Blake was revealed as a fairly ordinary guy who liked shooting pool and fishing. Which is kind of the point, really; that level of racism was ordinary. Shoot pool, go fishing, drive bus, scream at black people and leave them to walk home in the rain.

    That’s about what you’re going to get, characterisation wise, when the TARDIS gang and Doctor are only on their third episode and so are going to get most of the character development space.

    I’ve now watched the episode twice and the only bit I think didn’t work too well was the coda on the end – which I think was there as a history lesson for the kids. Otherwise, a lot of work was done on developing Ryan and Yaz, Ryan’s dead grandmother, and Graham.

    #64834
    Arch @arch

    The thing that strikes me as odd is, Ryan and graham haven’t asked the question “if this is a time machine why can’t we save my wife/grandmother”.

    I was almost expecting it to come up in this episode, presumably she’d be alive at the other side of the pond in 1955, thought the question may have come up, her name certainly came up a lot in the episode.

    It would be the first thing that popped into my mind if I found myself on a time machine shortly after the death of a loved one.

    #64835
    Cath Annabel @cathannabel

    The villain here was perhaps one-dimensional, but as @bluesqueakpip says, that’s because he revealed so little of his motivation, apart from that one remark directed at Ryan about his reasons for selecting this point in history.  I strongly suspect he will reappear at some point and we’ll find out more about whether he’s a ‘lone wolf’ or part of something bigger. @arch I’m also confident that Grace will be a presence throughout the series.

    Yes, at some point as the implications of time travel kick in I would be amazed if they don’t revisit that ‘Father’s Day’ conundrum but I think more generally Grace is already permeating the series in terms of her values, her qualities of courage and faith.  Grace = Spirit of Rosa – a thread running through WhitDoc’s tenure?

    Also @bluesqueakpip excellent point about the ordinary everydayness of this extreme racism.  No KKK outfits or burning crosses in sight, but it’s absolutely pervasive – on the streets, on public transport, in the cafes and motels, even down by the river, there’s no escape, and it’s this that’s overwhelming – we don’t need to see the murderous violence directly.

    So, no, I don’t think any of this is one-dimensional.  A teachy moment at the end where WhitDoc reminds us what the consequences were for Rosa, and how long it took for her to achieve recognition, but that’s OK, for me the drama worked as drama, and worked well.  Not sure that I could watch it without being conscious of the ‘racially charged’ setting, @dogboythecat, nor why I would feel the need to.

     

    #64836
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @arch
    Two possibilities:
    1. The question is being saved for later and there’s another episode with Sharon D. Clarke.
    2. This episode was the answer, and they’ll never need to ask the question.

    This is the first time the gang have really experienced the power of time travel, and the first lesson they learnt was not to change the past.

    If it’s so important to make sure Rosa gets on the right bus, on the right date, with the right driver, and with enough white people – when there were other people making such protests – then it’s important to accept that Grace is dead, and that can’t be changed. Which, in fact, they were accepting – the little joke about ‘I wish she was here’/’I’m glad she isn’t, she’d start a riot’.

    One thing I did notice was that the set-up for Grace’s death very carefully made sure that the gang had no reason whatsoever to blame the Doctor. Grace was told to do her task and then get somewhere safe – but chose to go into danger anyway. She died trying to help Ryan and the Doctor, yes, but it was very much her own choice.

    And the Doctor was at the funeral. I can’t emphasise enough how unusual that is for the Doctor; I’m not sure that there is another episode where we see the Doctor go all the way through with the funeral service, going inside the church and listening to the eulogy – even if she does prefer to stand at the back.

    #64837
    G Cotty @georgecotty

    For the first time in 40 years. I turned off a Doctor Who episode in the middle.

    WTF is this preachy rubbish about something I really don’t give a damn about. Let alone the fact, that the Doctor suddenly gives a damn about affecting small details in History.

    Can someone please let the producers know, that this is about a time Lord, not some Earthling solving mysteries . All that was needed tonight was a interrogation room and you have a episode of SVU except the  viewers are the Victims.

    Why this rubbish is being shoved down our throats in the guise of Doctor Who I don’t know. But after 3 episodes, I’m at a loss….Cant we just spin this off as the new Sarah Jane show and go back to timelords and shennagins.

    #64838
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @georgecotty

    There are approximately 56 stories set in the historical past, many of which include real figures from history. There are also another 12 serials where there was no extra-terrestrial threat – what you might call the ‘true historicals’.

    So, out of those sixty eight historically based stories – many of which had ‘I can’t change the past’ as a major plot point – what in particular angered you so much about this one?

    #64839
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @dogboythecat

    Not sure how you can call the characters here remotely one-dimensional. As @bluesqueakpip pointed out, both Rosa and Blake are given depth and nuance, aided by really great performances by the respective actors. In fact, I’d say it’s so far a trait of Chibnall’s era that all the supporting characters have been written really well and have been living, breathing individuals in their own right, from Karl in ep 1 and Angstrom last week. Krasko was kind of lame but that’s just because I think the actor didn’t quite have the menace and presence to pull it off. And I suspect he was just being set up for a reappearance anyway.

    @georgecotty

    Let alone the fact, that the Doctor suddenly gives a damn about affecting small details in History

    Oh, I dunno, how about The Aztecs for a start. And pretty much any pure historical from the show’s past you could care to name. Not to mention the SF tinged ones. It’s key in The Masque of Mandragora, The Visitation and Time and the Rani, to name but three.

    WTF is this preachy rubbish about something I really don’t give a damn about.

    Well, I’d say that if you don’t ‘give a damn’ about racial equality then Who is not a show that’s ever been on your wavelength anyway. You might have to take a long, hard look at yourself as a fan, and possibly as a human being too.

    @arch & @bluesqueakpip

    I suspect we will see Grace again and that this issue will be addressed. Or should I say I hope we see Grace again because I really do.

    I’m not sure that there is another episode where we see the Doctor go all the way through with the funeral service, going inside the church and listening to the eulogy – even if she does prefer to stand at the back.

    It’s heavily implied that he does so in Black Orchid from what I remember.

     

    #64840
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @jimthefish

    Yes, Lady Cranleigh thanks them for staying for the funeral. There’s also a scene in Remembrance of the Daleks where the Doctor and Ace accompany the cortege to the door of the church, but then quietly slip away rather than go in. (Remembrance of the Daleks also had a lot to say about racism, btw).

    But I can’t think of one post Time War, and I can’t think of a previous scene where the audience sees the Doctor actually at the funeral itself, listening to someone’s eulogy. So I think it’s meant to say something – what?

    That she’s no longer getting into her little Blue Box and flying away, leaving others to inform the family and explain the circumstances?

    #64843
    Darth Valaryn @troygorsline

    “I’m not a racist, but…”

    This statement usually comes before someone says something racist

    #64844

    Well, I did say the Angry Virgins would be very cross.

    #64845
    swordwhale @swordwhale

    So much going on in this episode I have to watch it again (I’m watching on Amazon, the only way I can get it).

    Malorie Blackman, well done. More please.

    Relevant to what’s going on now, and scary that it might rear its ugly head in the future.

    Weird that it starts in the year of my birth, 1955, I was four months old at the time of Rosa’s moment of standing, or sitting, for her rights. Gave me some perspective on where we’ve been and how far we’ve come, but not far enough.

    For some perspective for you wee young things, Star Trek, in 1966, was a Big Deal because there was a Woman of Color on the bridge of a starship (to more or less quote Whoopi Goldberg as a kid : Mom, mom, there’s a black lady on TV and she ain’t a maid!!!). It was a huge breaking of barriers to us in our little English/German American town… we totally admired Nichelle Nichols. and I still do. (also had middle school crush on George Takei, but that’s another tale).

    Sadly our history classes were more boring and did not focus as much on the courageous work of people like Rosa Parks and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. I was too unaware of most of what was going on in the wider world to be more than vaguely aware of things like busing and the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Which points out how utterly necessary it is to educate kids to be good decision makers in their world.

    Seeing this time through the eyes of Ryan and Yaz was good, they’ve learned the history but experiencing it on an awful visceral level is something else, even Graham, who is older and closer to the history, experiences it in a more immediate way. It all makes it more intense for us.

    I’m a northerner (Pennsylvania) but the southern accents (presumably played by British actors) were pretty great.

    I wondered too how many of those “zapped across time” characters will rear their ugly heads later…lol.

    I like the new TARDIS interior, great colors, and the crystal thingie, yaaaaaaaaaaaaaas. Does sem a bit less “spacey” than some other interiors, but more organic, less super60s spaceymodern shiny.

     

    @mudlark You said it!

    @tardigrade (brilliant handle by the way!) “It is still surreal to me that there were people in America acting like this at a time period that isn’t really that far removed from today.” …uh, there are still people who act this way, esp in the south. But also here in the north. Chadwick Boseman (Black Panther) said something in an interview about experiencing some nasty racism. A friend has two adopted kids from Korea, and the oldest (12ish) recently was the focus of racism. Yeah it’s not over… we have to keep educating, and changing people…

    #64846
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @pedant

    I’m actually surprised that it hasn’t been worse than it actually was. Mind you, I haven’t delved too deeply into YouTube yet…..

    #64847

    @jimthefish

    The joy of the fans outshouting the wailing fanboys has been a treat for the past couple of weeks. But this week especially.

    @swordwhale

    I like the new TARDIS interior

    I think we may need to form a support group…

    #64848
    lisa @lisa

    Nice to see that they took on this ‘uncomfortable’ subject and nailed it.   Its still however

    the Sarah jane Adventures redux for me but oh well, I can cope.

    On the subject of the Tardis I must admit the big crystal thingy is very phallic symbol-ish .

    So to be clear,   the Doctor isn’t the only one changing sex ?  If this is true then its also conceivable

    that the new Tardis has ‘crystalized’ into  a  new personality.

    Opens the Tardis door and before fingers can be snapped.   Offering cookies/biscuits.

    Sort of ‘fatherly’ behavior to a favorite child?  Good parenting.

    Or maybe I’m just imagining this…

    #64849
    swordwhale @swordwhale

    @janetteb

    Well said.

    Indeed, we need these kinds of stories more than ever now (Dear Britain, sorry about the trumpocalypse, ergh). Tribalism and fear of The Other is a running theme in human history, and we need to be vigilant. News and facts are fine, but stories go down deep and bring up the heart of truth.

    Perhaps those who did not have patience for “the history lesson” are the ones who most need it?

    #64851
    Texasferrets @texasferrets

    Way to take an important moment in history and taint it with a load of crap. I literally felt sick when Ryan said the line about getting pulled over more than his white friends. That was stupid and unnecessary unless the goal was to make people think England is like America. That is complete BS, neither one of them has had to deal with the kind of issues they claimed. Britain was never segregated and even when racism was at its highest there, being black was still better then being Irish. And even though Alabama back then was easily the most racist place in America, not everyone felt that way. Of course they made sure to never show a single person who wasn’t a backwoods racist bigot.

    And why the over the top reaction to being present in that moment in history, it would have been awesome to be there. Instead of sitting around looking horrified they could have taken an approach of support and sympathy for Rosa. Telling her “good job” would not have altered history.  This could have been a great episode but they had to flat out lie to get the characters to be involved. And what the heck is up with a super racist from the future? Seriously, all that trouble to stop one race on one little planet? It wasn’t the least bit believable.

    I really hope the rest of the season isn’t full of junk like this. The companions are from Sheffield, so why don’t they act like it.

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