S33 (7) 10 – Hide

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  • #6124
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    Doctor Who Hide

    Broadcast on BBC1 on 20 April. The Doctor and Clara meet a ghost hunter and a gifted psychic. Something terrifying is hiding in Caliburn House, and the Doctor finds himself part of the ghost hunt.

    #6151
    Mephistopheles @mephistopheles

    Grand-daughters, music at the centre of the house, fracturing, dark-Doctor (a shard of ice in his heart). Loved it.

    #6152
    chickenelly @chickenelly

    Best episode of the series so far, but spoiled it by showing the badly made monster at the end.  Just nipping over to the Grauniad to see what’s happening…

    #6153
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Couldn’t stop smiling watching this one – funny to think it was the 1st one they filmed.

    #6155
    ScaryB @scaryb

    <excited squealies!>

    Love it when unbelievers proved wrong and theories are proven to definitely be theories and not just accidental references 🙂 Lots of Claras. The Tardis doesn’t like her (yet). Pocket/multiple universes referenced. “Ghosts”. Clara called the Tardis an old cow!!!  Big question re if the current  Clara  is the same as the other 2 we’ve met. (Great)Grand-daughters again. Very timey wimey.  And the Doctor having to tell Clara how assistants/companions usually behave, lots of meta-references. Thought the pacing was v good too, and the actors were great.

    A refill of the Chilean red then off to the Grauniad for a bit. Sat evenings are usually positive on there. 🙂 See you all on the other side!

    #6156
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    Oh, my!  What a great show! It had bits of everything, in addition to be fast paced and exciting.  Was that seriously the eye of harmony??? And I absolutely didn’t expect the psychic to warn Clara about THE DOCTOR!!! and did anyone else pick up that bit about LOVE being able to send out a call across time and space, so that it emerges in different times (I need to go back and see exactly what those lines were)?  I couldn’t help but think that Clara IS the Doctor’s call for help – or someone who loves him very much (like River), sending out a call across time and space!!

    #6157
    ScaryB @scaryb

    OOOH! And flickering lights are back. LOTS of them 😀

    #6158
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    Loved it (no pun intended). Although think @chickenelly is right, would have been better not to show the monster/lovelorn soul. Will have to watch again.

    But for once an episode that had a theme based all around love, so it’s okay if love saves the day this time.

    #6159
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    That was really good (but I thought that about “Rings”). No – genuinely engaging, a different pace and loads of stuff to pour over in terms of analogies between the Doctor and his companions relationship.

    The scenes with them traversing the entire life-span of the Earth and Jenna’s sad “are you OK with that” – absolutely lovely. She really is a class act. It seems the TARDIS does have a couple of issues. I think this is going to reward multiple views.

    #6160
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Lost souls

    #6161
    Anonymous @

    Definitely need another watch before I can begin to hope to form any cogent theories but I thought that was really rather ace…

    #6162
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    On the Guardian we’ve already had:

    That was awful.
    Was it any good? Got a bit bored after 10 minutes and was distracted.
    I’d rather they just showed an episode of Scooby-Doo.

    But the winner so far, and I shout “Bingo”, or “House”, or whatever it is you shout…

    stupid kids show. Why is this always in the Guardian.

    #6163
    Anonymous @

    @craig — I know. I’m afraid I’ve already risen to the bait twice already. Must try harder…

    Oh, and did you see Galactus saying he was having some trouble joining up here?

    #6164
    Mephistopheles @mephistopheles

    Just thinking about the ‘shard of ice in his heart.’ We had the Shard in Episode 1 – were there any in Rings and Cold War?

    #6165
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Is the Dr really a member of the Baker Street Irregulars?

    #6166
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @mephistopheles – nice shard/ Shard mirroring catch.

    Broken mirrors and watery portals are everywhere in the new posters.

    Things fall apart – the centre cannot hold…

    So <tickles tummy reflectively> I’m happy to see the music (song) theme continuing this week, with the music-room as the heart of the house. And that room was also full of marble statues. And the instrument?

    A harp.

    Now what other-beings play the harp in our culture?

    Ah yes – that would be angels.

    Obviously I’m in doppleganger heaven after this episode. But I didn’t spot any Egyptology. Did anyone else?

    Off for a re-watch methinks…

    I’ll be time-jumping through our friendly wormhole between here and The Grauniad.

    #6167
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    @jimthefish Yes, just about to confirm Galactus.

    #6168
    Anonymous @

    A brief thought. This was evidently meant to be Pertwee-esque — Metebelis crystal and all that. Cold War was clearly a Troughton homage. I was wondering whether Bells of St John was rather meant to the Doctor One homage rather than Rings of Akahten. The plot was rather like an update of The War Machines on reflection…

    #6169
    feralcat @feralcat

    Another instance of Clara being unable to do something until prompted – she won’t follow the Doctor and go looking for the ghost, in fact clearly can’t follow him until he dares her (at her suggestion), then she’s up for the adventure.

    As we see in the next week’s teaser, he’s even going to ask her point blank whether she’s a trap…

    And yet she’s just an ordinary girl. I’m really enjoying this, the story arc is beautifully structured so far.

    #6170
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    OK – I’m probably going to get modded on the G blog for this:

    @olderiamthelessiknow –

    Got a bit bored after 10 minutes and was distracted.

    My dear chap. How awful for you. Attention deficit disorder is a cruel mistress. Have you considered medication? Or not taking it?

    Best wishes

    Just saving it because I’ve wanted to post something along those lines for a while.

    #6171
    Galactus @galactus

    Hello! So here you all are. How lovely to see you.

    Anway, as I hinted on the Guardian blog, thought the most interesting part of that episode was Clara’s reaction to the Doctor’s rather dispassionate take on watching all of human history from start to finish. When she asked him ‘So is that what we are to you? Ghosts?’, he didn’t reply about that question. He only said that she was the most interesting mystery worth solving. This Doctor is more and more alien, and in some ways seems more and more disassociated from us. How does he really view us humans? In times past, the Doctor has had a close afinity with the people of Earth. Perhaps it’s just me, but this Doctor really does seem to view us as a curiosity. I’m not suggesting this is a bad thing. I’m rather enjoying it.

    #6172
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

     

    Okay – so this started extremely well, very Pertwee atmosphere, very Planet of the Spiders ( really, Matt Smith could not pronounce Metebelis properly? Or was that a clue? )  but also a touch of Tom Baker (Fendahl, Stones of Blood – that peculiar mixture of mundane and horrific ) and even, perhaps McCoy ( Ghostlight, Fenric ) but explanations were slightly rushed in favour of the Doctor alone in a scary forest. I would like to know what the Doctor did with Hila – where did he take her? He could not leave her in 1974 surely? But an excellent supporting cast makes this really shine – and JLC is marvellous as Clara (this was her first filmed episode as ‘normal’ Clara I think?)

    But, in truth, the story was not the thing really – this was all about foreshadowing:  people have surprising secrets, even lonely monsters need a companion, impossible things can happen, love can cross universes and timelines, great-grandchildren have real bonds with their grandparents, things can escape pocket Universes (House? Romana?)

    Although – Is this level of foreshadowing really necessary? Can we not just have good stories told? Why do we need to be prepared?

    Another Professor…this one unafraid to identify the Doctor as deceitful, a liar, one who has seen and done things and wants to escape that, who lies about his past and what he has done. The Professor is then revealed to be someone who killed and had others killed, who sent young men and women to their deaths but who lived on, carrying the burden of their deaths, always wishing he could thank them – sounds like a ghost of the Doctor? An oblique reference to the Time War? Or something else? Did the Dr just run away from Gallifrey for adventures or did he have to run away because he was a coward or guilty of some infraction that cost others their lives?

    Interesting – the Dr has a sliver of ice in his heart ( which of course he would have given he sealed the Time Lords up forever ) and Clara should not trust him  – but the Emma the Empath has nothing to say about Clara? Fobwatch in action?

    Clara vocalises her fear that the TARDIS does not like her – but even then the Dr does not give her the key. Why not?

    For whom the Cloister Bell tolls…was it summoning Clara?

    The TARDIS thinks the image of Clara is one that Clara would recognise – suggesting, clearly, that whatever Clara is, it is not Clara? Clara is a disguise?  Equally, though, it seems like the TARDIS  might now be happy with Clara – but why?  What happened to change that?

     Did Clara operate the TARDIS? Or did the TARDIS drive itself?

    Did Clara send a telepathic message to the Doctor just before he realised there were two lovers separated, one in the pocket Universe?  You hear her voice saying Doctor…she also seems to work out the relationship between Hila and Emma before the Doctor ( given she drags him away from them, to give them some time together)

    In Snowmen, Clara said she did not believe in ghosts, so perhaps she was on to the truth here from the start? She was the only person to detect the scuttling motions that signified there was a “something else”. Although she and the Doctor were scared by Mrs Crooked Man, the Doctor seemed to forget about that entirely, even when confronted with Mr Crooked Man in the pocket Universe.

    But, on the other hand, she seems to be able to solve mysteries or puzzles or conundrums without knowing what she is capable of. Almost as if she is responding by reflex or intuition, without thinking or planning.

    The Doctor appears not to trust Clara – but, then, he didn’t trust the Crooked Man until the reality was made plain to him.

    Cute discussion about the difference between a companion and an assistant! And Clara’s speech about companions of the Doctor being ghosts to him – side-stepped by the Doctor.

    The Empath’s costume reminded clearly of Sarah in Time Warrior  – but what is the significance of 25 November 1974 if any? Almost a month before Tom Baker premiered in Robot – was there a repeat of Spiders then? Is it a reference to the discovery of the three million year old skeleton they called Lucy?

    For those who are contemplating the role of music – the music room is the centre of the House and the Doctor quotes Cole Porter’s famous list song Lets Do It, Lets Fall In Love.

    Could not see any Egypt references but no doubt @juniperfish will put me straight.

    And next week looks very intriguing…

    Right. Now to watch it again and then read what has already been posted and see what I have missed!

    #6173
    rema @rema

    I’ve been a long time reader of the Guardian blog but never posted, however nobody seems to have picked up on the colour of the two balloons used to demonstrate the two universes.

    Did any one else think of bow ties!!!

     

    #6174
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    Welcome @galactus ! Yup the Doctor is swiftly darkening….

    I’m half way through a re-watch and I think the name of the house was given as Caliban? Although I may have misheard. Anyone else hear that?

    If so, we have Shakespeare’s The Tempest to mine and its association, as with the many Egyptology references from episodes past (no, @htpbdet I haven’t been able to spot one in this week’s ep just yet!), with magic (and of course with dreams).

    Oh – and as I mentioned over on The Guardian, I thought the time-traveller and her white suit was a River Song reference, particularly given the forest setting, but of course there is also the well. The Professor mentions that the “Caliban ghast” is know as the Witch of the Well – so we have water and a forest and song (music) at the heart of the house and love saving the day…

    River is returning…

     

    #6175
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @rema Welcome and I could kiss you!

    My red bow tie/ blue bow tie as a foreshadowing of two Doctors theory has been with me since Amy’s Choice (see my avatar for proof of tenacity!) and I remain convinced that dark doppleganger Doctor is on the way. I’d missed the red balloon/ blue balloon call-back. So yay for that!

    I’m now on my spotty bow-tie = spotty Doctor portion of the theory 🙂

    #6176
    Tiddler @tiddler

    @mephistopheles – just re-watched and the line was “there’s a sliver of ice in his heart”, so the Shard idea maybe doesn’t hold up, sadly.

    The Doctor said that if he took the TARDIS into the pocket universe she would get trapped there, but Clara flew her there (twice) – was he just wrong or was he trying to keep the TARDIS out of the way again?

    Really enjoyed that, but next week’s looks amazing!!

    #6177
    Mephistopheles @mephistopheles

    @tiddler Over-enthusiasm leading to a lack of accuracy. Apologies. However, a shard and a sliver can both be broken pieces of something and there’s undoubtedly something broken about the Doctor, as well as the Claras.

    #6178
    feralcat @feralcat

    Sticking to my Clara as normal / impossible theme;

    The Tardis comes up with the only image she thinks Clara will recognise from her vast database; Clara herself – again this suggests Clara has a very limited memory, or limited access to it. It’s certainly a great ‘Clara as digital Ghost’ foreshadowing…

    Yet Jessica’s character describes Clara as a perfectly normal, more scared than she seems, girl when the Doctor asks.

    This makes sense, in that she is an ’empath’ rather than a clairvoyant – she senses what Clara feels, but isn’t able to read her mind or perhaps lack thereof ( in the sense of free-will and memory ). Loved that her warning to Clara about the Doctor was ‘shard’ based!

    Clara feels everything, we have been shown that each week, she too is an empath; her pain in the Tardis at her own (and her entire race’s) mortality is a lovely touch. She just appears to have a partial memory and requires other to need her to do something before she can act (cf. being an impromptu nanny).

     

    #6179
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    @juniperfish – It’s Caliburn House as in Excalibur. Dark Doppelganger mirror/shard all strong strong strong, though.

    #6180
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    The ‘sliver of ice in his heart’ is a reference to The Snow Queen – which is an opera, but is more famous in the original; it’s a fairy story by Hans Christian Andersen.

    I suspect it’s rather important, because all those glass shards in the posters? That’s the main component of the Snow Queen. Kay is a little boy who has a sliver of glass from a magic mirror fall into his heart; it makes him cold and cruel and everything in the world seems squalid and ugly – except snow. Then he gets kidnapped by the Snow Queen and everyone think’s he’s dead. Except his friend, Gerda, who goes to the Snow Queen’s palace to find him. She weeps tears of love on seeing him – which melts the ice in his heart.

    On their return home they find they’re now both adults – and it’s summertime.

    So we’re back with: something is making the Doctor cold and cruel. He’s either going to die or people will think him dead. The power of love will save him. Not his love – the people who love him.

    #6181
    Tiddler @tiddler

    @mephistopheles  – I’m sure you’re right there. We’ve gone from 10 being a “lonely god” to 11 as “lonely monster”.

    #6182
    Galactus @galactus

    Hello Juniperfish!

    The idea that the Doctor ganger is still loose is an interesting one. Mainly because of the promise of the end of season closer. The answer to ‘The Doctor’s Name’ could be ‘not the real one’.

    #6184
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @wolfweed – ah – drat – I was going to have fun with The Tempest !

    My re-watch makes me wonder about multiple TARDISes again, because when the Doctor and Clara go on their trip in the TARDIS so the Doctor can take photographs of the place at different points in time, Clara has a red umbrella with her when they first enter (Mary Poppins governess reference?).

    She looks for an umbrella stand and the Doctor says there is one by the door, and then wonders if he is “going mad” because actually there in no umbrella stand and he was sure there was one. Different version of the TARDIS? Or just further evidence that the Doctor is fracturing, a la shards/ slivers/ broken mirrors?

    Also – that trip in the TARDIS goes first to the magma past of the beginnings of life on earth (6 billion years ago)  then to a landscape with a giant dragonfly, then to the house in the Victorian era (or is the dragonfly in the Victorian era?) and then to a desolate end of life on Earth future. Three points in time rather than four has a better symmetry with the three versions of Clara…

    Also, I kept getting a bit of an echo-back to the Dickens episode with Rose and the Ninth Doctor and the Gelth, what with a gost and a brief trip to the Victorian era and a haunted house. Did anyone else?

    #6185
    Tiddler @tiddler

    @juniperfish – from what I remember from a recent trip to Cardiff museum, giant dragonflies were around before the dinosaurs.

    #6186
    chickenelly @chickenelly

    Just rewatching the episode and a thought came to mind.  Didn’t Matt say that a clue to the 50th was ‘paintings’.  There are quite a few around the mansion in Hide.

    Pause button at the ready…

    #6188
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    If you want to play with alternate universes, @juniperfish, how about:

    0:33 Doctor takes off his bow tie to tie the door shut.

    0:34 Doctor picks his bow tie off the forest floor, the house having dissolved.

    0:38 We see the Doctor with the monster right behind him – and the Doctor is wearing his bow tie. He turns round, he’s tieless, he turns round again, the bow tie is back. And then it’s gone again, and doesn’t return until he’s back in his proper universe.

    I would be very surprised if this was a continuity error – they’re very careful in showing us that the Doctor’s taken his tie off, to the extent of not just having him take it off, but having him pick it up later.

    #6189
    Pufferfish @pufferfish

    @bluesqueakpip Let’s get back to that little boy with a sliver of ice in his heart, who only likes the snow? Nod to the Great Intelligence slo-o-o-wly taking over the Doctor?

    Hmmm…

    #6190
    chickenelly @chickenelly

    @juniperfish

    …still watching the episode and got to the bit about the lack of umbrella stand.  As it comes just after the bit about Clara saying the Tardis doesn’t like her, could it be that it is the Tardis itself that takes it away?  The Tardis will have spotted Clara with her umbrella so whips it away to annoy her further.

    #6191
    chickenelly @chickenelly

    …back again after another spot in the episode.

    I must admit, I haven’t been overly keen on the idea of Clara as a future incarnation of the Doctor, but have a look at iplayer at 19m 48s.  The position of Clara’s watch is just how Matt’s Doctor wears his.

    Mind you, it could have just slipped round.

    Back to watch some more…

    #6192
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @bluesqueakpip – Ha!

    Yes I was just about to post on that note myself having spotted the bow-tie shenanigans on my re-watch.

    I can’t figure out whether Clara “really” made the journey to the pocket universe in the TARDIS twice, once to rescue non bow-tie wearing Doctor on his own and once to rescue bow-tie wearing Doctor and the “monster” together, OR whether, as the Doctor says in the episode twice, the “paradox resolves itself” and the “second” trip corrects the mistake the Doctor made the first time (overwrites it – seeing as “time can be re-written”)….

    #6193
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Lots of stuff to play with 🙂 Lots of great posts above.

    I keep coming back to this Clara seeming very young/inexperienced, even though she’s supposed to be, what, 26? especially compared to the really feisty other versions.

    @bluesqueakpip – absolutely brilliant post on the bow ties. I’d noticed the deliberate taking off and putting on, but hadn’t put it all together. And I LOVE the Snow Queen comparison. Slivers of ice can be removed 🙂

    So what have you got on 25-11-74??!

    @juniperfish And yes, good spot on the umbrella – it’s very signposted, very red; seems like it’s there to set up a gag, and yet… it could be just because the Tardis has had recent makeover and hat-umbrella stand isn’t a feature in this design, but then again…

    Yay!!! the bow ties theory is rocking again 😀

     

    #6194
    ScaryB @scaryb

    <waves @galactus, slightly nervously>

    Welcome

    🙂

    #6195
    ScaryB @scaryb

    my iplayer not working 🙁

    Wants to reinstall but won’t

    Wiped all my stored episodes and can’t download the new one.

    Any suggestions?

    #6196
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @chickenelly LMAO at thought of Tardis hiding umbrella stand from Clara. (that’s cos she knows Clara is going to call her an old cow!)

    #6197
    feralcat @feralcat

    “sliver of ice” line is a paraphrase of Graham Greene’s assertion  that;

    “There is a splinter of ice in the heart of a writer”

    He was writing in the context of the writer’s need to look at tragedy, or at least the suffering of others, without feeling pain. Something the empath of course, isn’t able to do.

    #6198
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @bluesqueakpip – yes nice Snow Queen spot!

    So the sliver of ice could be either:

    1. The Great Intelligence slowly taking over the Doctor

    2. Dalekisation slowly taking over the Doctor (after the wrist-band snafu in AotD)

    3. The Valeyard pucnching a hole through from an other universe/ time-stream straight into the Doctor’s consciousness and taking over

    4. A dastardly plot involving the GI, the daleks and the Valeyard (or some combination thereof) all working together

    @feralcat – I like the Graham Greene reference and the Doctor is a pretty frequent re-writer of time (so an author in that sense)…

    @chickenelly Yes 🙂 Maybe the TARDIS was simply being mean to Clara with the umbrella-stand rather than existing in two different versions – but two different versions fits with the bow-tie issue…

    Clara is wearing red again – the woman in scarlet. Is A Crimson Horror (upcoming ep) a play on this I wonder?

    Oh no @scaryb sorry about your i-player glitch. Are there any flickering lights? Don’t blink (sorry – that was monumentally unhelpful!)

    #6199
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @scaryb
    Repeating my post from t’other place, because I’m not sure who’s reading where:
    The only things I can think of at the moment are:
    They would have started on November 22nd 1974, exactly eleven years after the assassination of President Kennedy.
    November 25th 1974 is eleven years (and two days) after the first broadcast of Doctor Who.
    They are on day four – this is the fourth episode since Clara officially became a companion. The time is also 11 (for the Doctor) and 04 (for Clara’s fourth trip in the TARDIS).
    Caliburn may be a reference to Caliban, or it may be a reference to Arthur’s sword Caledfwlch, which Geoffrey of Monmouth anglicised as Caliburn. 

    #6200
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Not sure if this should really go here, but not sure where else.

    Re the Question Which Must Never Be Asked – because it’s been spotlit so much we’re all assuming the question is Doctor Who? What if it isn’t?  Who brought it up? Dorium. Not exactly the most non-duplicitous witness!  The people who don’t want it asked are the “baddies”. Maybe it’s a good thing (from our perspective) if it’s asked. eg the answer is the key to a programme which unlocks the Doctor’s memories.

    There’s much in this episode to promote the idea of being wary of catching the wrong end of the stick, of jumping to conclusions thro not seeing the whole picture.

    @juniperfish – statues and angel refs in the background in the music (music!) room – agreed

    #6201
    ScaryB @scaryb

    I also just posted in the other place – this series very few people seem to know who the Doctor is (the daleks in Asylum at the beginning but not at the end. And that was Clara’s doing)). Except the GI. And he/it seems to be waitng for the Doctor to show up.But the Doctor doesn’t remember the GI.

    #6202
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Re dalekisation – the metebilis 3 crystal was postioned in a very blue dalek-eye-stalk sort of a way, I thought.

    @bluesqueakpip – ta for repost. Fab work as usual. I’m sure you’ll also come up with something for the exact date! 😉

    Love the Doctor teaching Clara how to be a companion (cf last week when she stayed put when he told her to do so, but the last thing he was expecting was that she’d obey. (Victorian Clara and Asylum Clara were noticeably less obedient). And the wee assistants/companions aside.

    @juniperfish – no they weren’t, LOL. Not blinking (otheriwse the lights seem to flicker); wondering why I’ve got tally marks on my arms…!

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