S33 (7) 11 – Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS
1 May 2013 at 09:30 #7347
@bobbingbird Nice spot on ARC and also <sobs a little> Noah’s arc/ ark which saved some of the creatures when the great flood came. So by analogy, Amy, River and Clara are the Doctor’s litle ARC/ Ark of salvaged Time Lord from the great flood of the Time War…1 May 2013 at 09:47 #7348Bobbingbird @bobbingbird
@juniperfish – my wife has just given me a hanky and asked why I’m crying. I’m about to show her your post.
*blows beak noisily*1 May 2013 at 09:52 #7349
@bobbingbird You started it 🙂
Now imagine a Murray Gold score in the background!
(I know, I know, some folk don’t like his work, but I really do…)1 May 2013 at 10:18 #7355thommck @thommck
WOAH THERE @fulcanelli that is way into SPOILER territory! Can you please refrain from discussing anything actually released about future episodes, including official BBC photos, in the episode threads here. I don’t even like to watch the “Next Time” trailers
There is a dedicated spoiler forum on here.
I appreciate it’s a thin line between speculating on what we’ve seen in past episodes and using released press articles to join the dots but for lots of us here we want to be surprised1 May 2013 at 10:19 #7356
@fulcanelli The cover……..Clara and two Doctors looking for something? Who is the faithful retainer/bitch? Rose ? River is flowing by majestically…what else?
🙂1 May 2013 at 10:20 #73571 May 2013 at 10:23 #73581 May 2013 at 10:23 #7359Anonymous @
Apologies….also forgot we weren’t in the Spoiler Forum…can edit it if necessary…1 May 2013 at 10:41 #7360
Yep, am with @thommck re hyper-sensitive to what might be termed a spoiler. Unless it’s spelt out on the home page of the official site, which makes it probably unavoidable for anyone who’s online. If in doubt, post in spoilers <very proud of herself for keepin out of there for more than a week now!!> Much appreciated 🙂
Apologies to @htpbdet if I highjacked your GI hijacks the Tardis theory (Is the (dark side) Dr is the GI yours as well? (I get confused a lot, but work on the basis if it sounds like a genius new bonkers theory – it’s probably someone else’s LOL)). I agree with you re a talking cat sounds more like a Tardis ref than a River one (cats don’t like water).
One more thing that occurred to me about the Tardis (“after was it kidnapped in BoSJ?” thought), was re the Big Book. How do we know there was even anything actually written in it all? It was very carefully shot so as to reveal absolutely nothing of the pages. The Tardis could be using the equivalent of psychic paper so that it’s not at all a coincidence Clara opens it and sees the picture/story/headline she needs to see.1 May 2013 at 10:55 #7362
Gamechanger/reset specualtion – agree Moff’s unlikely to alter the fundamental basis of the series (mad man in a travelling box) but I’m sure he’d love to shed at least some of the weighty trail of contradictory canon. I doubt it will change into the Space Family Who – the story of Mr & Mrs Who with their 8 children, pioneering homesteaders for a new future on Outpost Gallifrey (tho it might be the spin-off 🙂 )
Born again in a new universe, with new rules? If Moff reveals some myths, I think you can be sure it will only be in the process of developing some new ones. I’d have no problem if Clara turns out to be a future (or past) incarnation of the Dr, and no disrespect to JLC’s talents, but agree with @bobbingbird that she’s too young to take over as a full regeneration at the moment (for more than just the in-story reasons). OK, I admit to being an ageist old git! And if we’re thinking that, you can bet half of fandom would implode. (hehe, is that a bad thing??)1 May 2013 at 11:03 #7363
@fulcanelli Not to mention it’s a spoiler for the book!!! I’ve been savouring the thought of getting my hanky out for chapter 11! 😉 Absolutely no hard feelings though.1 May 2013 at 11:08 #7364Dr-Clara @dr-clara
@thebadfairyprincess I’m with you on River having written the book.
The ‘other’ book – Summer Falls – I’ve only read the free first chapter, in which I assumed it was the story of Amy (not Clara) meeting the Doctor, with a picture of Amy and ‘her boys’ on the cover. Of course, the rest of the book probably contradicts that entirely! However, I’d be surprised if there were ‘true’ hints about this season in the book – that doesn’t strike me as how the BBC/Moffat would work.
Surely how Moffat would work, though, is to throw in very deliberate red herrings… Twice in the last 2 episodes the Doctor has given ‘explanations’ of whatever the current space/time problem is using metaphors that only barely make sense: blue/red balloons, then flickering lights. Surely that’s just forum-baiting behaviour!!
(Stephen Thompson’s other episode – CotBS which I controversially quite enjoyed – also contains 2 universes in the same place at the same time that flicker in and out of contact with each other. Not relevant, I just thought it was interesting.)
@bluesqueakpip I love your TARDIS behaviour list, especially her choice in Hide to let Clara in only once Emma’s opened the portal. Makes sense of some interesting editing and some interesting theories!1 May 2013 at 11:09 #7365Anonymous @
@scaryb – 1000 apologies! Really forgot where I was!!! Can’t seem to edit it out though…anyone know how?1 May 2013 at 11:12 #7366
JLC is too young
Year older than Matt Smith was, in fact. She’s 27. I had a look at her CV and while – at the moment – I’m running more along the lines of ‘she’s playing it like the Doctor because she’s his daughter’, her CV is such that she could quite reasonably be cast in the lead role.
Four years in a fairly meaty soap part, character to leading roles in mini-series. As an actress who went professional at 18, she actually has more acting years behind her than Matt Smith.1 May 2013 at 11:15 #7367
@scaryb I am not hung up about who claims what really – but I confess to have been obsessing about what the GI are up to here – and it did seem to me that either the TARDIS or the Doctor would be the prize it most sought. And given that Snowmen showed the Doctor “creating” the GI, there would be a certain symmetry to the GI taking the TARDIS from him – or taking him and the TARDIS. (What an ending – a possessed Dr cackling away and dematerialising in the TARDIS…)
I wondered whether if the GI took possession of him, the only way for him to defeat the GI would be to regenerate, (perhaps with a push from Doctors 1 and 10 a la K’anpo Rimpoche) and, if he did, whether he would end up without memories, which is where Clara comes in – the TARDIS having archived the Doctor’s memories in her somehow.
But I do not subscribe to the darker Doctor is coming theory – I don’t understand why people say Smith is getting darker. He seems quite the opposite to me – he is getting lighter, more consistent, more sympathetic to others and, in relation to Clara, utterly confused.
Anyway – I am only really sort-of-sure of one thing: at the moment, neither the Doctor nor Clara know what she is for.1 May 2013 at 11:19 #7368
Yes, please, can everyone remember the etiquette about spoilers?
on the official BBC site,
in the Radio Times (generally regarded as the ‘BBC magazine’),
or announced on the Ten O’Clock News (don’t laugh, non-UK folk, regenerations/new Doctors generally are headline news over here),
it is a spoiler.
Like @scaryb, I’ve now managed to go cold turkey on the Spoiler thread, and hope to stay that way until the finale. 🙂1 May 2013 at 11:24 #73701 May 2013 at 11:26 #7371
@htpbdet <waves at fellow GI theorist. Ha! 3 episodes on and they’ve all forgotten it>
So I can’t persuade you to part 2 of the theory that the GI is actually the Doctor’s disembodied darkside/depression somehow prized away from his main self (maybe on an astralplaning therapeutic yoga session!)? You did say yourself you thought Matt is getting lighter! <ducks!>
100% agree with “I am only really sort-of-sure of one thing: at the moment, neither the Doctor nor Clara know what she is for”!
@bluesqueakpip – ignore the prejudices of an aging chained-up stone angel 🙂 Would put a whole new spin on the Dr’s and River’s relationship tho… OK, I can be convinced!1 May 2013 at 11:30 #7372Anonymous @1 May 2013 at 11:33 #7374Bobbingbird @bobbingbird
@bluesqueakpip – but Smithy does do the oldun in a young body extraordinarily well. Could JLC do that?1 May 2013 at 11:36 #7378wolfweed @wolfweed
1st preview clip of Crimson Horror…1 May 2013 at 11:37 #7379Anonymous @
@fulcanelli — the offending post has been duly removed… feel free to repost in the spoiler section though. Or I can do it if you’d rather.
I’ve also removed @htpbdet‘s reply to said post which, while not containing spoilers as such, probably didn’t make that much sense without the preceding post… hope that’s OK, and feel free to repost in Spoilers…1 May 2013 at 11:38 #7380
@scaryb No need to duck!
Its possible. Just seemed that the GI was created in Snowmen by the Doctor from the intergalactic snow creature – it then went off and had the two Troughton adventures (and to be fair Web of Fear could have resulted in the GI having access to some of the Doctor’s essence) and then Bells could have seen them have access to more -and, indeed, perhaps the GI is wiping his memories internally – but I think I don’t ultimately buy it.
But the GI gained power in Bells and it is entirely possible that it has been lurking inside the TARDIS ever since (Kizlet’s people after all were meant to locate it), perhaps even slowly trying to take it over – perhaps there is a fight going on internally in the TARDIS which accounts for why it sometimes treats Clara differently and sometimes does not go where the Doctor wants it to go.
Moffat is obviously playing a long game – Doctor’s Wife could have been part of the set-up for this finale.
As to his name – I still think that the trick will be that he was called the Doctor for a bad reason – like he doctored records or results or machines (a souped up TARDIS for instance) or something – so that the reason he left Gallifrey was because he had to not because he wanted to explore. Its going to be some personal crisis that he has been running away from all his life. I think.
I also think that the changes to the TARDIS interior are just to set up a gag for Tennant in the Anniversary Special:
“You’ve been redecorating I see. I don’t like it.”
🙂1 May 2013 at 11:40 #7381
@JimThe Fish Thanks. No idea what I even said now…or how to delete and repost. I think the Time Lords have all my transdimensional theory knowledge..
If you think its worth it, repost away.1 May 2013 at 11:41 #7382
Would put a whole new spin on the Dr’s and River’s relationship tho… OK, I can be convinced!
Yes I went there too 🙂
I’d be more that happy with that and by no means averse to JLC as the Doc. It’s just that I don’t feel I’ve seen a consistent persona yet from her (which is not her fault as that’s what the script requires of her for now) so hard to judge.
I actually liked her “screaming genius” incarnation as Oswin Dalek best. That version seemed the most “Doctorish” to me.
As to the Doctor “going dark-side”. I think there are hints. Most recently his line in particular to Emma in Hide struck me. She asked him if the Metebelis crystal head-set was going to hurt and he said “no” at first then agreed that it probably would and that he’d be “quite interested to find out”!
That seemed alarmingly lacking in empathy…1 May 2013 at 11:42 #7383blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave
@htpbdet Agree with you entirely about the Doctor-as-dark theory. I do not see any evidence for it myself. Maybe he experiences loss (Amy and Rory) but that is about it. No, I have always felt he is the one moral constant. Also the reason why I do not subscribe to the multiple Doctors, or Dalekised Doctor.
Just re-watched Bells of St John. He sits outside Clara’s room, protecting her. A dark Doctor? Really? What I see is a fiercely protective Doctor. One might even say…a paternally protective Doctor.
Well , I’d say that anyway!1 May 2013 at 11:43 #7384
but Smithy does do the oldun in a young body extraordinarily well. Could JLC do that?
I think, if she has been cast as the Doctor (next, future or alternate), they wouldn’t ask her to do that. Smithy’s probably done the definitive version of that for the next ten years or so. Asking someone else to do it really would be a ‘follow that!’.
Since we’ve seen Clara as a baby and small child then, if she is the next Doctor – I’d say the Moff’s taken the ‘the Doctor’s keep getting younger!’ complaint up to eleven and had/will have the Doctor regenerate as a baby (It will be impossible to get any younger than that!) Possibly with associated memory loss. 🙁
But it would mean the show is going in a new direction – a) the Doctor is a woman and b) for the first time ever, we’ve got a ‘young’ Doctor.
But she could be playing the Doctor’s daughter/granddaughter/g-grandaughter; they’ve already asked her to handle three subtly different versions of Clara, and you would need a pretty experienced actress for that. Generally you find that most actors can handle the one version of the role, but if they need to switch the same character between two versions – well, most films and dramas who’ve done that, the director often ends up casting the ONLY actor who could play it.1 May 2013 at 11:51 #7385PhileasF @phileasf
I’ve finally caught up on all the messages. Enjoying everyone’s thoughts a lot.
Here’s a few brief ideas about the woman in the shop. (They might even really be brief this time!)
The idea that Clara saw the woman from the shop in the book seems like a good one. But I don’t think River could have been involved in the time war, based on our (well, my) current understanding… Unless it becomes a plot point that the time war is escaping from its timelock, or that you can visit it in a pocket universe. Of course River could still be the woman in the shop, and what Clara saw in the book could be something else entirely.
Here’s a few alternative theories for the woman in the shop:
As I recall, the phone in the TARDIS door had never rung before, and the Doctor didn’t even know it could ring, so it must be a different number than the TARDIS telephone we sometimes see the Doctor using. It seems right to me (and consistent with Steven Moffat’s modus operandi) that this number would ‘magically’ appear out of a timey-wimey loop where it effectively creates itself. Which leads me to think the woman in the shop was…
Clara herself, but older, or in some way disguised so she won’t recognise herself. Maybe she was wearing a hijab? Bandages? Would you believe sunglasses and a headscarf?
Clara’s daughter or some other descendant. This makes the failure to recognise her more plausible. It also fits in with the family theme.
The Doctor, with a wig and a silly voice. (Using time travel to rewrite people’s lives, including his own, seems consistent with his current behaviour… He has to drag up because Clara already told him a woman gave her the number.) Of course, the woman in the shop could have been both Clara and the Doctor, according to one theory…1 May 2013 at 11:57 #7386
@phileasf Now Smithy in drag I would very much like to see 🙂
Yes, I’m going with Clara as a Pond and the Doctor’s grand-daughter or great-granddaughter, who is also a temporary repository for his memories and pass-word protected by a Song.1 May 2013 at 11:59 #7387
Its going to be some personal crisis that he has been running away from all his life. I think.
@htpbdet Almost certainly. I cannot believe that even the Doctor would drag his baby granddaughter on a ‘see the universe or die trying (possibly both)’ tour unless he had to.
He ran. And whatever he was running from, he had to grab Susan as well.1 May 2013 at 12:02 #7388PhileasF @phileasf
@juniperfish, agree with you re the Doctor’s apparent lack of empathy in Hide. In JttCotT he seems pretty cheerful when he burns the message into the Big Friendly Button, knowing it’s going to burn / has already burnt Clara.1 May 2013 at 12:03 #7389
@phileasf I think the woman in the shop will be either River or Rose – and it is, as you say, most likely a paradox that will be resolved in the finale by whoever going to the shop finding Clara and giving her the number.
Is the TARDIS external phone the same number as the internal phone? I have always thought so – which is why the woman could also be Kate Lethbridge-Stewart. (And I’d quite like that too)
@Bluesquakpip I don’t believe that JLC will be the new Doctor. She is going to be Susan or another relation – but, Susan is my preference.
Whoever the next Doctor is, the “mad man in a box” character will not be the underpinning notion. It will be a different take. Maybe a charismatic amoral Dandy philospopher with a penchant for old ways and a loathing of gadgets… 🙂
@blenkinsopthebrave Agreed. He is much more protective of Clara than Amy. He seems in grandfather mode a lot…1 May 2013 at 12:03 #7390
River’s definitely post Time War (spent 3 hours and many braincells sorting that out!) so she can’t go back there. (not to say she couldn’t study it retrospectively of course, but difficult to get eye-witnesses from a time-lock). Author is the Tardis with psychic paper.
The Doctor, with a wig and a silly voice…
Dont’ be silly… that was Pertwee’s forte 😉1 May 2013 at 12:03 #7391
@wolfweed – re the new preview clip of CH, I am struck how touchy-feely the Doctor is being suddenly. He has put his arm around Clara in each of the last three episodes.1 May 2013 at 12:08 #7392blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave
@juniperfish. I was going to call it a night, then I saw your post about signs of the dark Doctor just as my computer was powering down. So I painfully turned on my old steam-powered laptop again, which took forever. Does the Doctor lack empathy? I do not think so. What he does do is that he always makes people aware that not everything will always turn out for the best. If he does lack empathy, the he lacks it no more than Hartnell’s Doctor. He could be pretty dismissive of people if you recall. And I think there is a definite attempt by Moffat to link the 11th back to the beginning.
Think back to Hartnell. He closed the door on his own granddaughter, and left her to an uncertain fate, because he knew that she had grown up and needed to take on the burden of her own responsibilities. That was not the action of a dark Doctor, it was the action of loving and protective Doctor, who knew the time had come to say goodbye. In terms of “dark” I see nothing in the actions of the 11th to even compare to shutting that door. So when I look at the actions and the statements of the 11th, I do not see a dark Doctor. Or even a Doctor “becoming” dark.
That’s it. Bedtime.1 May 2013 at 12:09 #7393
I cannot believe that even the Doctor would drag his baby granddaughter on a ‘see the universe or die trying (possibly both)’ tour unless he had to.
He ran. And whatever he was running from, he had to grab Susan as well.
Agreed. And that speech in Rings seems to confirm it.
@juniperfish I thought he was talking to himself about himself in Hide. I didn’t think he was wishing harm on Emma. I don’t see any sign of Smith’s doctor being darker now than he was in first series. Sorry!1 May 2013 at 12:09 #7394
I don’t believe that JLC will be the new Doctor. She is going to be Susan or another relation – but, Susan is my preference.
@htpbdet – I’m leaning towards Susan or Susan’s daughter, as well. But I keep looking at JLC and thinking ‘my God, she could play it. She could make you believe that she’s the Doctor. She really could’.
I hope she has a fine career post-Who; much as I like Karen Gillan, JLC is currently knocking Amy out of the park.1 May 2013 at 12:12 #7395
Matt’s already done the drag thing…… http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1143446/Whos-girl-Matt-Smith-cross-dressing-role-helped-land-role-new-Time-Lord.html1 May 2013 at 12:18 #7396
@bluesqueakpip You are going to drive JimTheFish into a frenzy, but as to this:
I hope she has a fine career post-Who; much as I like Karen Gillan, JLC is currently knocking Amy out of the park.
I entirely agree.
And more than that – Amy was impossible and a mystery in her first season just as Clara is here. And although they are very different, JLC has achieved what KG never did (in my view anyway) – she has made people care about her without understanding her. I think she is an excellent actress.
But Doctor material? – not for me. Judi Dench? Yes. Helen Mirren? Yes. Maxine Peake? Yes Emily Watson? Yes Hannah Waddingham? Yes Nicola Walker? Yes! Jenna Russell? Yes!1 May 2013 at 12:22 #7397
He ran. And whatever he was running from, he had to grab Susan as well.
@bluesqueakpip – Agreed. Hence the line in RoA about running and running, when you hold something precious. OH!! Maybe he initially ran because Susan was a very special Time Lady. Perhaps, she was so unique (can she fracture herself through time and space?) that the darker forces rising to power in Gallifrey would have used her. Ok, I admit…my imagination is running away with me. I don’t know enough about Classic Who, and the interactions occurring between the Doctor, the Time Lords, and Susan while she was still with the Doctor.1 May 2013 at 12:23 #7398
I do like Smith’s take on the Doctor, especially how he ranges from knockabout physical comedy to I’m-a-Time-Lord deadly serious. I don’t think he’s necessarily getting progressively darker* – Hartnell could be incredibly scathing (and I cringe watching Pertwee with Jo sometimes – he’s just out and out mean, or at least oblivious of her needs (very 70s)). The Dr’s an alien and sometimes his empathy sense gets distracted by… ooooh! look! once-a-millenium exploding quantum-laser-star in Rigelian Galaxy 4…
(that’s why he needs humans around)
*Not ruling out darkside split (GI), or interacting timestreams/pocket universe duplicates.dopplegangers tho1 May 2013 at 12:24 #7399HolyMackerel @holymackerel
…1 May 2013 at 12:26 #7400
my imagination is running away with me
So why else would you be hanging about in here!!
(This is the place to be in case Moff’s resolution proves to be less imaginative than our bonkers theories hehe)1 May 2013 at 12:29 #7401
@ardaraith Aww sweet – I don’t think white is his colour tho’
On a dark Doctor to come, I refer you to the words of Dorium Maldovar (whom @bobbingbird once famously thought was “responsible for everything”) in The Wedding of River Song:
You’re a man with a long and dangerous past. But your future is infinitely more terrifying. The Silence believe it must be averted.
Then there’s the “endless bitter war” with a future-Doctor whom some think of as a “god” which Madame Kovarian is fighting.
Also, the Alliance built the Pandorica for a terrible being, so the Doctor said in The Pandorica Opens:
“…a goblin, or a trickster. Or a warrior. A nameless, terrible thing soaked in the blood of a billion galaxies. The most feared being in all the cosmos. And nothing could stop it, or hold it or… reason with it. One day it would just drop out of the sky and tear down your world…”
The interesting thing about a loop / an explosion of TARDISES is we could have been seeing versions of the Doctor both moving towards and away from that explosion throughout Smithy’s tenure – a split Doctor.
So yes, Eleven has been pretty damn dark sometimes ever since we’ve met him, but that doesn’t negate an actualised dark Doctor to come in our (the viewers’) future – in one of those flickering realities “running together at infinite speeds”.
I think it’s likely, as others have said, for the kiddies, that a dark Doctor will be because of nanobots/ the GI and may well be literally a doppleganger – as in we will get to see Smithy on-screen with himself in “light” and “dark” versions.
Yes, he’s compassionate with Clara – the darkness is seeping through slowly as he is gradually “taken over”….. <cue scary music>1 May 2013 at 12:32 #7402
Matt in drag – thanks for the link – Aww, how young he looks! DM says of the part – “Smith plays the confused and damaged 18-year-old Henry, who has an incestuous relationship with his drug-abusing and alcoholic mother Martha”. Sounds straightforward compared to the Dr’s relationships, LOL1 May 2013 at 12:36 #7403
I should have said above – The Doctor is compassionate with Clara sometimes and not at all at other times! She told him flat out he was scaring her more than anything else on board in JttCotT…1 May 2013 at 12:38 #7404
@ardaraith The thing is, ardaraith, we know next to nothing about Susan. She is the Doctor’s grand-daughter and she is telepathic – but that’s about it.
We don’t know why she is with the Doctor in Unearthly Child, what happened to her parents or what happened to her after the Doctor left her with the human David Campbell at the end of Dalek Invasion of Earth. In particular, we don’t know why the Doctor and she never ever talked about her parents and his wife/her grandmother. Part of me always thought the Doctor kidnapped Ian and Barbara because he knew Susan needed parents and he was not good enough.
So – she presents a pretty unique writing opportunity. She comes from a fuzzy background yet there are clear expectations of what she could/should be. So it could be fun to turn those expectations upside down – make Susan into something more complete.
And a Doctor travelling with a 200 year old grand-daughter…there’s a good idea…
Yes, I’m going with Clara as a Pond and the Doctor’s grand-daughter or great-granddaughter, who is also a temporary repository for his memories and pass-word protected by a Song.
@juniperfish I just can’t see how River could be the grand-mother of Susan. If she was, Hartnell knew River; which meant Tennant would know her too and he didn’t. Although, against myself is that the Doctor did not know that Mel was River until she regenerated. Hmmm…..1 May 2013 at 12:38 #74051 May 2013 at 12:45 #7406
This is the place to be in case Moff’s resolution proves to be less imaginative than our bonkers theories
@scaryb – true, true! In the spirit of Bonkers, and otherwise completely Insane, Theories – what if the Doctor was playing with genetics; doctoring the way Time Lords travel. What if he produced a Time Person (?), not born to him biologically, rather a specimen he concocted, that “regenerated” as the same person across Time and Space. What if, when the dark powers were rising in Gallifrey, and worried that his creation would be used for nefarious purpose, he fled! Taking with him his precious ‘granddaughter.’
It potentially falls apart after that, but the idea of it fits the Doctor’s character: a tinkerer who is enamored of the “new shiny”, and the potential of science and the universe.1 May 2013 at 13:02 #7407
Must say, I have always assumed this
You’re a man with a long and dangerous past. But your future is infinitely more terrifying. The Silence believe it must be averted.
did not necessarily mean that the future he referred to was the result of the Doctor’s choice.
So, either a future where the doctor was Daleksied or a future where the Doctor was taken over by the GI and gave them access to time and space – either would be terrifying.
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