Series 7 part 2 speculation

[Craig @craig Emperor]

A place to discuss what we think will happen in the second half of Series 7.

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

We have it from Dorium Maldovar that Trenzalor is the “Fall of the Eleventh”. Is Trenzalor when Smith is going to regenerate and leave us? Seems devastating, but highly probable?

That leads me to speculate that we can’t be arriving at Trenzalor at the 50th Anniversary episode special, because surely, that’s too soon to say goodbye?

On another note – I want to meet the Corsair so badly in the Gaiman episode… How magnificent would his/ her Byronic TARDIS look?

 

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

Hidden ’50 year discrepencies’, nods to the past always with something new, lesbian jokes (remember Oswin’s 1st crush?), The Shard revealed as something else (or secret base beneath), Cyber-rats/cats/kids, Clara explained…

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

At some point I need a Vastra vs Mme Kovarian samurai sword fight scene.

I’d also like more TARDIS interior – but actual rooms, not just corridors. An episode from the TARDIS POV taking place entirely in-TARDIS would fit this perfectly, not with her personified as Idris or anyone else, but rather, we watch the Doctor through her monitors, as he gallivants from room to room on whatever the quest of the episode is (perhaps looking at mementoes from past companions, lingering with a keepsake or two from Gallifrey, pausing for a fish fingers and custard snack, along the way).

 

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

I have confidence that Moff won’t unzip his flies and piddle all over the show’s history. I expect an entirely contemporary story (as in original, not a continuation of a Classic Arc – expect maybe Susan), with many a fanwanky nod for fanbase and a few bones for the most ardent fanboys. Oh, and a whole shoal of red herrings.

But if they get there and I find myself simply thinking “Whoa, that was cool” I will be content.

(I write, of course, as one who doesn’t care how the McGuffin Machine works, as long as it does).

@juny – the last time there was loads of Tardis interior, it ended up looking a lot like a disused factory in Shepherd’s Bush.

[Craig @craig Emperor]

@juniperfish I don’t think this is a spoiler as it is on Wikipedia, but one of the episodes is called something like “Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS” and supposedly tales place completely within it. It may well be the season’s cheap episode, lots of shots of the same corridor, but could be good if done well.

I heard Gaiman had to cut scenes of the swimming pool in the TARDIS for budgetary reasons from The Doctor’s Wife, so I’m leaning towards the cheap episode theory, but you never know.

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@craig – really? How psychic of me.

Yes, sometimes I do regard descriptions of up-coming episodes as spoilers (not that I’m complaining in this case) . I know they are available, sometimes four or five episodes ahead for many shows. In general I try to avoid them. But, hey, I’ve been on the “Spoilers” thread here already 🙂

Re the subject of the thread. Should Oswin-Clara continue past the Doctor’s next regeneration? Unless of course, as we’ve speculated, she is the next regeneration… I don’t feel I’ve seen enough of her perfomance to decided yet but I did enjoy the inner struggle and adjustment when Rose had to deal with the transition from Nine to Ten.

Sarah-Jane also experienced such a transition, from Three to Four, although I can’t clearly remember how much of a deal was made of this – emotional resonance being less of a writer’s priority on the show in the “old days”.

 

[Rob @rob]

Could Clara be Jenny?

I know they kissed which would need some de-yukkifying

My other thought is she could be another conceived in the/a Tardis baby (daughter of The Master?)

Too much time spent in the cold on site today twiddling my thumbs

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@rob

Could Clara be Jenny? I know they kissed which would need some de-yukkifying

I think she could well be a Pond of some description….

I like the idea of “The Master’s Daughter” – she (running away from her shifty Dad but nevertheless harbouring some divided loyalties) could be a great future-companion.

[Craig @craig Emperor]

I just watched the trailer again and it seems to me there may be an episode entirely on a boat/submarine, another entirely in a monastery, another in modern-day London (possibly with a plane sequence), and there is another episode supposedly entirely set in the TARDIS. Another looks like it is back in Victorian London with Jenny and Vastra, so will probably have been filmed back-to-back with the Christmas Special.

All that makes me think there may be a bit of budget-saving going on and they may be planning to blow the whole lot on the Anniversary Special. Kinda makes me slightly less excited about part 2 of the series (although Blink was supposed to be the cheap non-Doctor episode, so who knows), but am looking forward to that Special even more.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@craig

The entire budget for each episode in the 1960s probably would not even cover the coffee for an episode today, and yet we still keep watching them for the wondrous things they are.

I would not worry about the prospect of a reduced budget for the forthcoming episodes. It is all about the writing, the acting and the direction. And, as you note, look at “Blink”.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@blenkinsopthebrave, well said. A big budget is not always a good thing. Writers can get lazy and rely too much on special effects. Some of the best episodes are the lower budget ones.

cheers

Janette

[Craig @craig Emperor]

@blenkinsopthebrave and @janetteb

Don’t get me wrong, I wasn’t so much bemoaning the fact that part 2 will be crap because it may be lower budget, I totally agree that budget limitations can often lead to much more creativity. My point was more that there may be a reason for that, that it could point to the Anniversary Special being something very, very big indeed, with a lot of blow-your-mind spectacular scenes.

I do hope so.

[janetteB @janetteb]

As long as they don’t overdo the specky effects at the cost of story. Being a natural optimist however I am certain that a lot of thought and planning has gone into script and effects and the result will be unforgettable.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@craig

I just watched the trailer again and it seems to me there may be an episode entirely on a boat/submarine, another entirely in a monastery, another in modern-day London (possibly with a plane sequence), and there is another episode supposedly entirely set in the TARDIS. Another looks like it is back in Victorian London with Jenny and Vastra, so will probably have been filmed back-to-back with the Christmas Special

You’re ignoring the possibility that could all be stuffed in to 1 episode!

😀

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@janetteb said, over in the Vincent and the Doctor thread…

Or, or, your last comment inspires another idea, maybe it is all the work of the Time Lords from beyond the time lock, manipulating those on the other side to destroy the Dr before they make their triumphant return. Though personally I would be sorry to see the Time Lords portrayed as evil. Snobbish, arrogant, inflexible yes but evil no. I see them more as “lawful good”, which makes them rather hard to live with.

I think we have already seen the Time Lords depicted as “evil”, in The End of Time (where Timothy Dalton played Rassilon). Deciding to become beings of pure consciousness at the expense of time itself, and all other beings in the universe, is pretty evil – it’s genocide of the universe basically – and it of course “justifies” the Doctor’s “genocide” of the Time Lords (although actually they are just locked in a Time Lock). The desperation of an endless time war with the Daleks pushed Time Lord society to a point where it was willing to consider a “final solution”.

I found that story problematic for a number of reasons. Tennant’s Doctor was getting overwrought by that stage and (as I’ve said elsewhere) Sims doesn’t do it for me as the Master.

So yes, I feel certain that the Time Lords will reappear, most probably in the 50th Anniversary year as they are part of the Doctor’s “origin” story.

What I would have liked more exploration of re The End of Time was the Time Lords side of the story. The depiction of the Time Lord vote on Rassilon’s proposal was worthy of further narrative – whispered politicking in corridors on Gallifrey, the agonies of a few “moral” Time Lords who dared to campaign openly against Rassilon’s proposition and who were “disappeared”…

Something I do miss from past Who was a willingness to tackle political systems and choices in some of the stories over time – I’m thinking about Genesis of the Daleks. There are indeed instances of that in Nu Who, such as the future Earth-society (and sinister corporation) which created “the Flesh” or the Cat Nuns of New New Earth and their terrible experiments (both stories possibly linked) but, when storylines ran over several episodes, there was more room to deliberate world-systems before moving on.   

 

 

[janetteB @janetteb]

@juniperfish, your comments re’ the Time Lords remind me of the Vorlons in B.5. They initially appear to be almsot God like, wiser and better than the lesser races but their endless war with the Shadows drives them to commit genocide too. Dr Who has not always been consistent in it’s depiction of the Time Lords. Borusa changed character considerably between The Invasion of Time and The Five Doctors. Maybe it was due to the intervening regeneration. Iwas not overly keen on The End of Time’s depiction of Rassilon though the Games as depicted in the Five Doctor’s imply that he was not  the noble individual that he was portrayed as in Time Lord culture. Rather like many human “heroes”, such as a certain French duke/count who did not speak English and viewed England as a rather full place only good for gathering taxes who now celebrated in a romatic statue outside the Houses of Parliament. Time Lord society is rather like human society, with the usual corrupt, greedy, unethical people rising to the top.

cheers

Janette

[janetteB @janetteb]

I seem to have veered off topic again. I blame it on the wine.

Cheers

Janette

[HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish]

@janetteb – given the TimeLords are a ostensibly non-interventionish galactic super power with a secretive Agency within called the CIA, riven with political corruption and have (despite being “peaceful”) extraordinary weapons of mass destruction* … I think its safe to assume the writers have toyed with timelords as a satire of humans and US imperialism in particular.

Wine at 10:25am ? You’re my kinda girl! 😀

* hand of omega, Nemesis**, the Moment, the Magenetron, bow ships, whatever it was they gave the Minyans to destroy Minyos with … did I miss any?

** it always annoyed me how the movie felt it had to explain the Doctors affinity for Earth with a (Star Trek pilfered) human mother, when the last series of classic made a very clear implication that he was actually keeping an eye on where he’d stashed both the HoO (in a hole) and particularly Nemesis (in a solar orbit).

There’s also a heavy implication that the Doctor didn’t just “run away to see the universe” (that’s just what he wanted the TL’s to think) but actually scarpered with at least their 2 most deadly weapons, defanging them because presumably he didn’t think they could be trusted with them – i.e. scratch any TL and there’s a genocidal loony with near godlike powers just underneath.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

It’s always been my thought that while the most likely mental illness for humans is depression, the most likely mental illness for a Time Lord is megalomania.

They all seem to get it sooner or later. Even the Doctor’s had his moments. If the ‘twin Doctor’s’ theory turns out to be correct, I confidently expect the second Doctor to be a complete megalomaniac.  🙂

[Anonymous @]

I’ve always thought of the Time Lords more as galactic academics rather than sinister politician or power-hungry types. (Although this isn’t being borne by more recent interpretations of them admittedly). I think of Gallifrey as the biggest, most stuffy, hidebound Oxbridge College you could think of and it was this that the Doctor rebelled against. I look at them at studying the universe and its technologies from an abstract and detached point of view and just not having the worldliness or the intellectual capability to deal with the fallout of the implications of some of those discoveries. Which is why they constantly need the Doc.

I doubt we’ll be seeing a return of them personally as I think what Moffatt is aiming for now is a complete reboot of the show by the 50th anniversary. I suspect that what we’ll see by then is the show’s concept stripped down to bare essentials — a madman in a box, who doesn’t really know the universe and the universe doesn’t really know him, with minimal history or backstory…

[HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish]

@jimthefish – possibly that’s even how TimeLords delusionally see themselves. It’s strange how pervasive that image is – personally I can only really see them actually portrayed on-screen that way in part one of The Deadly Assassin. Outside out few scenes in that story, they seem pretty relentlessly arrogant and scheming – rather than bumbling – to me.

I think the whole “boisterous rebelling against stuffy academics” Tardis joyriding schtick is a fiction the Doc has carefully manufactured to cover up a much more serious purpose (at the very least, scarpering with some very heavy duty ordinance indeed)

On his blog, Neil Gaiman recalls how he pitched that that as a child, the Doc asked the Corsair if he could travel with him/her as his “assistant”. Moffat replied that he didn’t want the Corsair to resemble the Doctor because the Doc “does what he does for reasons too vast and terrible to relate”. Go figure.

Totally one the same page with you about an upcoming total reboot though!

@bluesqueakpip – you’ve on to something there: The Doc has said that all TL’s look into the Untempered Schism as children; it inspires some, drives the rest insane (such as the Master). I guess some of the ones they presumed inspired eventually turn out to be loony tunes after all (hello Mssrs Borusa, Rassilon, War Chief, Mobius and Omega! Even Drax as at least one jellied eel short of a pearly king and queen. Or silly, as K9 puts it). You have to be a pretty harebrained civilisation if you have a rite of passage that effectively mass produces psychopaths!

[Anonymous @]

@haveyoufedthefish — fair enough. Although I do tend to look on the whole Cartmell Master Plan thing with a little dubiety and am not crazy about the Doctor fleeing with a shitload of weapons thing. But you’re right, the Time Lords as blustering fuddy duddies isn’t really borne out by most of their actual behaviour in the show.

I’ve been wondering though if it’s ever been directly said that Time Lords are an actual race or if being a Time Lord is something you become. I mean, the Shobogans that live outside the Capitol in Gallifrey, are they Time Lords as well. I was wondering if it might be more like an honour conferred on you when you graduate from the Academy, like getting your masters or something — with maybe one of the perks being that you get/are taught the ability to regenerate? And if that’s the case, is it a Gallifreyan-only institution or can aliens enroll? (It would seem not, I know, as it’s mostly white males from what we’ve seen — but if the TLs do return I’d quite like to see them as a more eclectic bunch.)

[janetteB @janetteb]

To risk indulging in another B.5 reference I rather like the idea of the Time Lords being like the Mimbari Grey council. For those not familiar with the series they are the planetary ruling council who float about on a space ship removed from their planet below, isolationaist and thus increasingly remote, out of touch and elitist.

All,  or at least most,  fictional Sci Fi societies are based in one way or another upon our own. Often they pick up elements of our world and exagerate them but the inspiration invariably comes from real life. I think the depiction of the Time Lords has varied with the view of the respective script writers, between those of the “power corrupts” school and those of “only the corrupt seek power” school.

The guards in the citadel were not Time Lords, maybe Time acolytes. Romana is credited with being a TimeLady however I suspect that she was aristocracy. Interesting that Lalla Ward seemed to downplay that aspect of her character. Maybe she had had enough of all that in real life. I suspect that the writers didn’t have time or funding to develop a societal model for Gallifrey. I also suspect the lack of women in the governing council was more a reflection of Earth politics at the time. However what we did see of Gallifrey was sufficient to whet the appetite for more. I hope that we do find out more about Gallifrey especially now that it has become so much easier and cheaper to depict fantasy landscapes.

cheers

Janette

[ScaryB @scaryb]

I really liked 11’s speach in The Power of Three that he was running TO something – to see all  the marvels of the universe, the fleeting moments of beauty and wonder – rather than running AWAY.  Although it has always been hinted, from the first series, thro to the reference in The Doctor’s Wife that there’s elements of “escaping from”,  and that he is unusual for Galifreyan society.

TL society always reminded me a bit of Gormengast (and the B5 societies that @janetteb refs above) – something that started off worthy but the very principles which govern it have resulted in it atrophying, thro strict adherence to (slightly dodgy to say the least (see @bluesqueakpip‘s and @jimthefish ‘s posts above, in particular)) traditions.  Most of the TL’s are happy just to be part of the select few (and probably just relieved to have come thro the exposure to the untempered schism without having their brains melted) and enjoy the benefits of the status quo, to think too clearly about how the system creates and nurtures psychopathic tendencies. The Doctor is different as he retains a sense of wonder, maybe as a result of his long exposure to humans.

TL society – aristocracy or meritocracy? Always seemed to me to lean more towards the former, but with tests to weed out the weak/non-conformists.  Time isn’t dependent on the TLs, but some of them seem to have a bigger understanding of it than others.

Maybe the real problems for TLs also came when another race – the daleks – acquired time travel knowledge, with no intentions of using it for anything other than malicious desruction. The daleks maybe don’t have enough knowledge/innate power to control time in the way the TLs seem to be able to do, but they could cause a helluva lot of disruption by malicious interference at key points. Hence the Doctor’s extreme solution.  How much of Rassilon & co’s psychopathic behaviour results from them being trapped in the time lock – enough to drive the sanest person over the edge? To the point where transforming yourself, and a select few buddies, into a being of pure energy, even at the expense of everything else, seems a viable solution.

[HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish]

@jimthefish – I have to agree that although I admire the goal of the Cartmell Master Plan – re-injecting mystery – I was deeply unhappy about the execution, especially Lungbarrow. For me the joy of the Doctor as a lead character is that he’s isn’t armed, isn’t a vigilante, he’s NOT a superhero, he wasn’t “chosen”, he has NO special powers. He’s just a galactic Huckleberry Finn, but when he finds something wrong, an injustice, he stands his ground, he doesn’t walk away (though he did at first!* But Ian and Barbaras liberal teachers idealism gradually rubbed off on him and the virtuous circle continues through Sarah Jane, Rose, Romana and Cap’n Jack, perfectly encapsulated in Harnells goodbye to Susan).

Therefore any of us could be an Earthly Doctor – if we just had the nerve, and I think that’s why the character is so inspiring. Cartmells “the Other” concept kinda pollutes the purity of that idea, for me.

(Actually though, mostly it was actually the scheming CIA of Pertwee’s tenure and Tom Bakers first season that I was thinking of though rather than Cartmell era TimeLords)

@janetteb & Jim – I love your thoughts about the nature of Gallifreyan society and @scaryb I think your Gormengast reference is spot on; I’d be amazed if that hasn’t been an influence on Mr Dicks et al. Jim I think you’re right that TL is a rank rather than race. I’m not entirely sure though that to ascend to lordship is a right available to all Galifreyans (e.g not for guards as Janette notes), so there may be a caste element to Galifrey (as you suggest, @scaryb). Given the Doc told Sarah other races can’t even visit Galifrey, it seems unlikely its available to other races …

@scaryb – interesting thought about what drove the TL’s over the edge to consider Galactic Genocide. My feeling is that the time war was only ever about self-preservation rather than any concern for the rest of the universe – the TL’s foresaw daleks eventually subjugating Galifrey and if ending the universe is what took to prevent that … so be it. In the 50’s US and USSR generals considered frankly insane “survivable nuclear first strike scenarios”, so this is really just an extension of the “TimeLords as sociological satire” idea that Janette expanded on.

Will TL’s feature more? I think opening the TimeLock is inevitable, but the more the TL’s are in it, the more (as Cartmell felt) it defused the sense of mystery around the Doc. Given that Moffatt seems to be all about bringing a hint of magical-realism to the DW experience, that’s suggests it won’t be quite that simple. Bring back the TL’s and reignite the mystery? That’s a tall order and maybe something we could have some fun theorising around …

* Yeah I know that doesn’t really fit with my earlier comments – unless he started an idealist, became jaded on the way to Totters Yard and contact with Ian etc reawakened it).

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

I think Moffat’s idea is that everything we think we know about the Doctor is wrong. There’s so many doubles, and gangers, and mirrors wandering around; not only is the Doctor not who we think he is, he’s not who he thinks he is.

Doctor Who? The question that must not be answered; because the Doctor himself mustn’t find out who he really is…

[Anonymous @]

@haveyoufedthefish — agree with you 100% re Lungbarrow. The Doctor as the mythic Other was all wrong for the reasons you describe. Although I did like the idea of the Looms in Lungbarrow. I had an idea for a story a while back that relied on the concept that regeneration only worked by harvesting the personalities of already existing people and stored them until they were needed for a regeneration — that there was a real Hartnell-like character and so on — and giving the Doctor a major ethical dilemma when he uncovers the truth. But I suppose The Family of Blood already explored a version of this trope anyway, so scratch that one.

[Anonymous @]

OK, here’s some thoughts for more s7.5 and 8…

Despite the discussion above, I don’t think the Time Lords will be making a return. As I and others have said before I think that Moffatt is heading for a big reset moment and that we’ll be wanting to ditch the Time Lord mythology, or at least keep it on the back burner. I reckon they’ll stay in the Time Lock for now.

Omega. He’s a shoo-in for the 50th I reckon. He’s been the villain in two anniversary years so far and there have already been hints dropped in the series so far that he’s on his way back. And I think a Big Name will be playing him. Patrick Stewart maybe? Someone like that anyway. (Although as someone who’s revisiting Fringe at the moment, I can think of no one better than John Noble. He’d be an awesome Omega.) Although Peter Dinklage would be quite cool as well, not to mention a bit funny.

Previous Doctors. I don’t think we’re going to see them all in one story. But I think we might see a few of them scattered throughout separate stories, maybe with an overarching arc to the whole thing. Although I agree with whoever said on the other thread that the more they bang on about not doing multi-Doctors, the more that makes me think that that is exactly what they’re up to. I reckon we’ll see Tennant, McGann, McCoy and Davison at least. (Although I’ve long harboured a theory that what actually happened at the end of The Caves of Androzani was that the Doctor was spirited away during his regeneration and replaced by Maxil and that we’ve been watching the misadventures of Maxil the Time Lord since 1984.)

I think it’s maybe more likely that we’ll see a return to places of Who lore as backdrops for stories. I’d love them to re-do Vortis with modern effects. Telos maybe? Or Skaro. I did like the glimpses of a dystopian Skaro we saw in Asylum of the Daleks. Or maybe something more topical. Back to Peladon again where Hepesh’s ancestor has launched an splinter independence party a la Nigel Farrage?

Companions. I reckon we’ll see Amy and Rory again. Probably Captain Jack. And probably Rose. I’m not sure we’ll see anyone further back than that. Katy Manning possibly. Although the one I’d really like to see again is Lalla Ward.

Rewatching The Impossible Astronaut again has made me start thinking about something that bugged me at the time. A rather big deal was made of the The Doctor’s death at the time, bearing in mind what a cop out it ended up being. I reckon — as with lots of elements of seasons five and six that Moffatt was foregrounding or doing dummy runs of concepts that he’s going to revisit in the anniversary year. In other words, that he was getting us used to the idea of the death of the The (or a) Doctor (as well as ideas of sentient TARDISes and duplicate selves for example.)

So (@juniperfish are you listening) I think where we’re going is that we’re going to see the final death of ‘our’ Doctor (the fall of the Eleventh?) and his mantle will be taken up by a younger version — with no centuries of backstory and a young outlook on the universe again (hence no need for Time Lords either). Not sure how Clara is going to fit in — a/the TARDIS in human form? Susan? I suspect that the lost shot of this reboot will be the TARDIS sitting in a junkyard in 1963…

But even if this is too radical, I still think we’ll see a dramatic reboot of some kind. And I’m still pretty convinced we’ve been looking at two Doctors in action over the past few series. I had all but given up on this theory but rewatching them again now has definitely revived it. I even think you can discern subtle nuances in Smith’s performance sometimes. Could the switches from world weary to callow and inexperienced be more than mercurial character traits and completely different characterisations?

Blimey, sorry for the epic. Well done if you made it to the end of that little lot. Er, I think that had better do for now…

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

 I still think we’ll see a dramatic reboot of some kind

Agreed. There’s nothing I can put my finger on, but it just feels like we’re about to start over.

The very first episode of Moffat’s tenure was called ‘The Eleventh Hour’. Eleventh Hour? Not much time left?

And then there’s Easter. All those eggs. The Doctor dies – only he doesn’t die, it’s a trick. But the whole point with the real Easter is death-and-rebirth (all those eggs).

And he’s circling round: one thing we know about the Doctor before we first see him is that he’s managed to produce a granddaughter. And for the first time in the Who cycle, we see the Doctor with an actual wife and family, the way he must have been before Totter’s Yard. Repeating the circle.

One of the arc phrases for Moffat’s scripts: ‘everybody dies’. River dies. Rory and Amy dies. Clara won’t stop dying. Only the Doctor has tricked his way out of it. But how long can he keep running?

[HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish]

@jimthefish – neat: so basically what Morbius was doing physically in fact all timelords are unwittingly doing psychically? The last dark cost that Rassilon (it’s always Rassilon) bequeathed on an unsuspecting Gallifrey; a sort of Soylent Green horror reveal of what extending their lives actually cost…

That.Is.An.Epic.Idea – and I’ll tell you why: the Doc would have no moral choice but to not only relinquish all his regenerations (and in the doctors words from Mawdryn Undead: if he can’t regenerate, he’s no longer a timelord) but to also persuade all other TimeLords to do the same. So that would mean the de-facto end of the TimeLords … DW ideas don’t get bigger than that!

(Unfortunately, it would also kind of kill off the dues ex machina that allowed DW to continue so long – regenerations – so you’d have to think of a clever get out clause that allows regeneration to continue just for the Doc – maybe via the flame/elixir on Karn?)

[HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish]

@jimthefish – Re: “fall of the eleventh”. While this could mean the death of the Doctor, it could also simply mean simply “fall from grace”. Given that the Doctor is in some way currently engaged in an erasure of his own myth, to (deliberately or otherwise) disgrace that legend would fit.

Can’t help thinking that references to the “fall of Arcadia” are there to prime us to think about “fall” in the military sense, thus misdirecting us from other interpretations.

@bluesqueakpip – “the eleventh hour” – I only just got that title pun. Only taken me 3 years…

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@jimthefish. Loved the epic post! The blenkinsop brain has been in hyperdrive since reading it. A bunch of thoughts, probably disconnected and perhaps contradictory. Anyway:

1. In “Remembrance of the Daleks”, we don’t see Omega, but we do see The Hand of Omega. In the form of a coffin. In a graveyard.

2. The Doctor at one point says to Ace, something along the lines of: “The Daleks are too driven by logic. The answer is to get a young imaginative child and enslave the Battle Computer”.

3. In “Asylum of the Daleks” Oswin is, arguably, a young, imaginative child who is so clever she can control the Dalek computer.

4. At the end of “The Snowmen” we see Clara standing by her (seemingly) own gravestone.

5. Hand of Omega. HoO. H2O?? (I know, this one is a real stretch, but I thought I would thow it in. It was the least I could do to keep alive my idea about Clara-as-daughter of River, grand-daughter of Amy and mother of Susan)

6. In “Remembrance of the Daleks”, doesn’t the Doctor admit to Ace that he may have been part of the team including Rassilon and Omega in developing The Hand of Omega? Is this (the use of Oswin/Clara) part of a really long term game plan, that even the Doctor has forgotten (or maybe engineered himself to forget)?

7. Running with @jimthefish that we could be leading to a total re-boot, I have long felt that Moffat strikes me as a writer who would love to have–literally–the last word on Who. By that, I mean that it would be a re-boot whereby the past arcs and reference points would be irrelevant. Everything would be new.

OK, now running out of ideas.

Oh, hold on. 8. “Remembrance of the Daleks” was the closest they came to breaking the 4th wall (Had to make that point!)

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

No, having said all that I am not convinced Moffat would reference what was a dodgy production. Cannot think of any writer’s ideas that Moffat has referenced except his own. Or am I mistaken? Probably. Well, possibly…

[HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish]

@blenkinsopthebrave – well they have made a point of showing skaro survived so the HOO didn’t detonate. So what happens to it? Let’s say daleks captured it as spoils. By their standards its not too formidable a weapon so simply possessing it is not itself a crisis. But it has a connection to both the doctor and omega – could the daleks use it to find and release omega, and use or do a with omega to open the time lock to destroy gallifrey? He would and he’s probably the only man who could without the key?

Another possibility for Clara is that she’s the personality of or a message from the captured HOO? Or a tamper warning from the lock itself?

So we have a plot excuse for a major baddie mash up and it not only resonates with multi  earlier anniversaries it literally carries on where they left off. I think you’re on to something!

And this is just the mcguffin, it in no way interferes with the idea of it concluding with a reboot.

 

[HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish]

Also the treasure hunt form is a perfect form for implying tension and therefore feels exciting and epic (just ask Dan Brown and Homer) : race to Clara (lose), race to HOO(lose), race to omega(lose), race to gallifrey(lose). All hope lost. Deus ex machina. Win, again the odds. Happy audience.

 

Moffat will be looking for a guaranteed “home run” story format that is both exciting to non fans, oozes fan references  but the fan references are only mcguffins to kick start the story. This is the best candidate I’ve seen so far…

 

** should read “do a deal with omega”

 

 

 

 

 

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

Just re-watched “Asylum of the Daleks”. Starting to re-engage with my initial thoughts. Hmm.

[Craig @craig Emperor]

@jimthefish Your post reminded me of this old story:
http://www.geeknative.com/18063/will-benedict-cumberbatch-play-omega-in-doctor-who/

The Omega symbol popped up in Time of Angels. Are the Clerics actually in the Church of Omega?

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

Omega is also a Christian symbol – I remember having quite a debate about whether their Omega symbol included a stylised Alpha. Alpha and Omega would mean – quite possibly – a sneaky little hint, but it would also be a standard vaguely Christian Cleric symbol.  Alpha and Omega together mean ‘the beginning and the end’.

Omega by itself means ‘the end’.

[Craig @craig Emperor]

I had always thought the the middle part in the design was either Eleven (are he and Eleven connected), or Two in roman numerals. Omega 2?

Also, his breast plate does remind me of the Lodger/Silent TARDIS control panels:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Omega_%28The_Three_Doctors%29.jpg

[Anonymous @]

@craig

Are the Clerics actually in the Church of Omega?

I think there’s almost certainly going to be a connection between the Clerics and Omega…

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

The implication seems to be that there’s two factions of Clerics, though. One faction kidnaps baby Melody and is trying to destroy the Doctor. The other is willing to work with the Doctor.

They do have different shoulder flashes and insignia.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@craig.

“Omega 2”

Eggs.  Omega.

Omega 3 Eggs?

<OK, I’ll get my coat>

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

Lots of great Time Lord society / Time Lords “incoming alert” posts.

I am not convinced that the kind of full-on reset that comrades @jimthefish and @bluesqueakpip are suggesting will happen.

I can go with the idea of the Doctor dying and being reborn with a new set of regenerations. I can even buy “amnesia Doctor” for a while – a mad man in a box with no memory of who he used to be.

But, wiping his memory/ the universe’s memory clean completely and permanently for a full re-boot? I don’t know – that’s a big mythography / merchandise stream to jettison (as new fans won’t plug into the Doctor’s history if he can’t remember it himself).

I felt so sorry for Omega in The Three Doctors as a child – abandoned and trapped in the singularity, without corporeality.

Hmmn – what if the Doctor is the “Alpha” (beginning) to Omega’s the “end”?

Perhaps Gallifrey doesn’t escape from the Time Lock, but the Doctor and River’s children founds a new Gallifrey. The weight of responsibility for the universe is lifted from the Doctor’s shoulders, and he can go back to being a wandering iconoclast?

Cue future fun with New New Gallifrey?

[janetteB @janetteb]

A few random musings.

I agree with @juniperfish re’ the reboot. I think Moffat has already granted the Dr more regenerations through River. My feeling about the “fall of the eleventh” is that it was a vague reference to a future event not yet planned out. I think Moffat often “seeds” things, some of which he might use later some of which he won’t but will provide him with the amusement of watching fans like us devise bonkers theories about. I think the “fall of the eleventh” refers in a very vague way to the next regeneration, which I hope, is a very long way off.

I think the Doctor’s loss of memory is a useful narrative tool to revive elements of old Who stories which the audience is not likely to be familiar with. With all the references to the first Doctor floating about the air waves now there is no better time than to dig into Who history for inspiration.

Cheers

Janette

[Anonymous @]

I just wish they would hurry up and get on with it now. It’s anniversary year, after all. They could be whacking on repeats of the Classic show on BBC 4 or summat.

[Craig @craig Emperor]

Going back to my earlier post about the “Coming soon” trailer I was just having a muse.

One episode seems to be set at sea – on a boat or submarine. Sea Devils anyone?

Another seems to take place entirely in a monastary. Could we see the return of The Monk?

I know bringing back loads of old baddies is a bit cliched, but if you can’t have fun for your 50th birthday, when can you?

[Anonymous @]

@craig I don’t if this constitutes a spoiler or not but I believe that the submarine episode is the one that will feature the return of the Ice Warriors…

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

This idea’s been floated before, but maybe the Doctor is Omega? Though hopefully without the rice krispies 🙂

[Rob @rob]

@craig wow Sea Devils!!! One of my all time gave me nightmare monsters, lived near the sea and that idea freaked me for quite a while. Hmm live close to the sea again now!!!

Had a random thought, could our impossible woman have been scattered through the timerverse by some sort of Tardis mishap? Bad Wolf in humonoid form?

[Author]

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