Spoilers (2)

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    janetteB @janetteb

    I agree that the companions have become surrogate “family” for the Doctor and I like that development a lot. I also really hope we get River back at least once more. I really hoped that she would cross multiple regenerations also the recurrance of side characters like River, Vastra and Unit gives the Doctor universe more depth and reinforces the sense that each regeneration, though different, is the same person and I agree with you the Doctor needs “family” on occasions, (and most likely in small doses)  just as all lonely travellers do.



    Anonymous @

    Missy’s back and you’ve all been granted permission to squee 🙂


    lisa @lisa

    I’m wondering if that is a vortex manipulator that Missy has on her wrist in this
    I’m back’ vid? I saw this being suggested in another place.

    lisa @lisa


    Paul Kaye or “Prentis” is in episodes 1-4 in series 9 – does that mean new companion ?

    janetteB @janetteb

    Thank-you @lisa. You made my morning! 🙂 Nothing particularly new or spoilery, (which is best) just lots of nice teasers. Just what is needed to help endure the long wait until series 9



    lisa @lisa

    I have come across a rumor regarding a young version of Davros returning as a character
    in season 9 in 1 of the early episodes. I thought I posted it but possibly not. I will
    try to find the source again but in any case it is fueling my bonkers theorizing over
    Dr. Skarosa/Missy and the 3W scenes in the season 8 finale.

    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @lisa I do agree the Doctor bears responsibility for the perpetration of Davros as a monster throughout time.  I assume before the Doctor interfered all the way back at Genesis of the Daleks that the Daleks simply executed Davros as being superfluous; whereas the Doctor’s interference both led to Davros’ being preserved and gave Davros an understanding of the potential of time travel.  While the Daleks might have been suppressed for a few generations, eventually adding Davros to the mix propelled them to a mastery of weapons including those involving time beyond where they would have been had Genesis of the Daleks never occurred.

    However if it is Davros I suspect it would an edited copy reborn in a younger body.  It would tie into my theory that even Time Lords will soon seek to be reborn as ordinary humans throughout Earth’s history to hide from being discovered overtly existing, because overt existence causes another Time War.


    jphamlore @jphamlore

    My out-of-left-field speculation for this season and the future is:  It’s Valeyard time!

    Kate Smith has been shown to be quite ruthless for Earth’s interests.  Suppose that the Time Lords, perhaps through the Master, are offering a back-channel deal behind the Doctor’s back.  Now how can Kate Smith negotiate with the Master / Missy when Missy tried her best to kill Kate Smith?  Missy has demonstrated she’s not going anywhere and must be dealt with.  The Time Lords can’t come back normally, that would start another Time War.  They need a place to hide in plain sight throughout time.  They need Earth, and they need to assume the identities of humans, and lots of them.  How useful was it to collect the database of the lives of all the human dead stored in that Gallifreyan hard drive.  The universe is a very dangerous place for a lonely primitive planet like Earth.  It might be extremely useful to be able to call on Time Lord help other than the Doctor’s.

    The Master / Missy is also interested in the Doctor because the Doctor may be fated to help create the Valeyard, a truly dangerous opponent and rival of the Master.  But which direction causes the creation of the Valeyard:  Is it the Doctor betraying the Time Lords once again, or is it the Doctor finally siding with the Time Lords and becoming wrapped up in their bureaucratic mindset?



    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @lisa:  Here’s some speculation to tie in all of your news:

    The UK has as smart people as anywhere else who I have no doubt would like to show they can match Interstellar, effects and story.  And Dr. Who has that right because many of the elements of Interstellar’s story were in Dr. Who decades ago, at least by the Three Doctors and Deadly Assassin.  Black hole engineering that saves a planet and leads to a civilization that rules time and space, a heroic sacrifice to start the process:  that’s all Dr. Who.

    And if I am right that the Time Lords want to be reborn on Earth, it could well happen again.  They will need a new black hole converted to an Eye of Harmony by the Hand of Omega.  It just happens there has been speculation about what is the fate of the red supergiant Betelgeuse, a star so close to Earth, good enough at least for science fiction purposes, there is concern when it supernovas it could wipe out life on Earth.

    There are all sorts of characters one could expect to see pop up for the creation of a new Eye of Harmony, such as the Master, Davros, maybe River Song.  One of the upcoming episodes features a character named Odin, intriguing to me because Odin is the one who sacrified an eye and hung from a tree for many days for wisdom.  For there must be human sacrifice for this new Eye of Harmony.  I wonder if Clara is being prepared.

    lisa @lisa

    @jphamlore So yes – I see what your getting at. The Master/Missy is once again attempting
    to replace humans like in ‘End of Time’ but using some new techniques to achieve this. Also
    the Galifreyans might be trying once again to target Earth like they did in EofT. Rassilon wanted
    the removal of the humans on Earth back in EofT. What the Galifreyans are planning now and how Missy
    or others fit into this I’m not sure. There are really all sorts of possibilities of how it can
    shake out.
    The 1 thing I know is that this is going to continue to be a huge epic story arc!
    {Cant wait for more leaks and season 9 ! :)}

    gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar

    Alex Kingston might return as River Song . Alex said ” all I can say is … spoilers . But what I will say is the sonic screwdriver that I had in Silence in the Library , which had been given to me by the Doctor , is not the sonic screwdriver that has been seen … yet . I haven’t been told I’m done ” . I think if River returns , Captain Jack has to return , and meet her .

    lisa @lisa

    @gamergirlavatar I also saw a post about Alex Kingston’s recent remark at 1 of the
    comic cons that it was her impression most of the companions that go are given
    a fair well party but she hasn’t had hers as of yet so who knows what that might
    hint at?

    Anonymous @

    @gamergirlavatar @lisa

    Yep, as far as I’m concerned, until ‘that’ screwdriver makes its appearance, River Song is still very much an active (though unseen) participant in the Whoniverse.

    I hope the rumours are true.

    jphamlore @jphamlore

    River Song would seem another natural piece of the puzzle if the Time Lords were manipulating the Doctor to conduct experiments on the conversion of human DNA to something compatible with that more suitable for the Time Lords purposes, once they try and re-manifest themselves on Earth.

    Anonymous @


    Ingrid Oliver will be returning as Osgood in S9


    DenValdron @denvaldron

    Hmmm.  So basically, the Osgood in Dark Water and Death in Heaven was a Zygon all along, and had been since the Day of the Doctor.

    That raises some interesting issues.   If UNIT’s specialized technology can’t spot an alien infiltrator, they’ve got problems.

    Alternatively, if Kate Lethbridge knew Osgood was a Zygon infiltrator what was going on?  Was it a double blind game, with Lethbridge spying on the Zygons spying on her?  Or was fake-Osgood with UNIT as part of an exchange agreement with the Zygons?  In which case, Osgood’s not going to be happy being a pawn.

    The most intriguing and frisky hypothesis might be that Osgood and her Zygon have struck up a relationship, and have been sharing a life together.  That would be really interesting, particularly in the aftermath of fake-Osgood’s death.  “Damn you!  She was my Zygon, and I loved her!”   It’s the sort of thing that RTD might go with.

    But this is Moffet, so instead, I expect we’ll see something flashy, stupid and mawkish, with a subtext of writer’s resentment at having to bring the character back


    PaperMoon @papermoon

    River and Osgood, yay! @gamergirlavatar @fatmaninabox I agree about the sonic screwdriver. There’s also the Doctor who taught River how to fly the TARDIS, although this comment was made to the 11th Doctor, he was, apparently, busy that day.

    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @denvaldron The Zygon Osgood must have eventually learned then to at least pretend to have to use her asthmatic inhaler.

    Either that or perhaps Missy is honing her skill of uploading and possibly editing some other humans …

    DenValdron @denvaldron

    @jphamlore   I thought the Zygon Osgood actually did have to use the inhaler.  In putting out a perfect duplicate of Osgood, she incorporated Osgood’s asthma.

    I hope it’s not Missy.  That would just be obvious and boring.

    gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar

    I think it’s not Osgood .I think it’s a Zygon that took the form of Osgood but I am glad that she is returning . For any one who read my River Song post on the wrong thread I am sorry . I did not think of that as a spoiler . I will be more careful in the future .

    DenValdron @denvaldron

    Zygon’s need a live template to carry out their impersonation.  That’s why they would keep their victims alive.  If it was the real Osgood that was killed, the Zygon’s wouldn’t be able to reproduce them.  On the other hand, if it was the Zygon Osgood who was running around, that would mean that they’d have the real Osgood tucked away somewhere.

    ichabod @ichabod

    Zygon, Shmygon, in shots from the filming of S9, *why is the Doctor walking around in plaid pajama bottoms* ?  Are they footies, with the foot part hidden in the boots?  WTF?  I mean, it looks as if Moffat wasn’t kidding about the S9 Doctor being much more confident than he was in S8 (where he was still figuring himself and everything else out), so that’s fine if he doesn’t need the “power suit” (coat, vest, white shirt, dark pants, and them stompin’ boots) any more except for special occasions.  So the T-shirts and jumpers and the hoodie take over, with the coat on top as needs be — all fine.

    But those pants — ?????  It’s not the plaid-ness that bothers me, it’s that the fabric looks thin and flimsy, like lightweight flannel p.j’s.  Ugh! Aargh!

    Oh well . . . (doleful sigh)


    lisa @lisa

    @ichabod Footsie pajamas- funny!

    @gamergirlavatar @SenValdron @jphamlore – So if Osgood cant recall if she is the Zygon
    version or the real McCoy [or did the Osgoods figure out which was which in the ‘Day of the Doctor’]
    does that still mean that a living template is required ?
    This also tells me its likely we might probably get more Danny too. Just a hunch…

    lisa @lisa

    Oops ! that was @denvaldron on above post.

    DenValdron @denvaldron

    @lisa   Yes, living template is still required for the Zygon’s duplication biotechnology.  It doesn’t matter whether the Zygon knows its a duplicate or not.  The duplication seems to require a continuing feed.  Cut the feed, the Zygon would revert automatically.

    The memory wipe stuff only lasted for an hour or so anyway.

    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @lisa Yes the two Osgoods figured out who was what in Day of the Doctor because the Zygon Osgood had taken from the human Osgood her inhaler.  Therefore when the two were talking among themselves and one reached for the inhaler on her person, both instantly knew that was the Zygon.  However they smiled to themselves and apparently kept their knowledge a secret.

    @denvaldron You are I think correct, although I simply cannot recall at the moment which Osgood tried to treat her asthma and which had the inhaler.

    With the peace treaty I am going to assume the Zygons are given some part of Earth that I believe they need to terraform (Zygon-form?) to their particular needs.





    lisa @lisa

    @denvaldron @gamergirlavatar Ok then it was the Zygon that got zapped for sure because
    if it was real Osgood how could she be returning? That’s my thinking. The Zygon did the
    field work and the real Osgood stayed in the lab? Plus 2 Osgoods in UNIT better than 1!

    gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar

    @papermoon River can fly the Tardis , because she is the child of the Tardis . They said this in ” Let’s Kill Hitler” .

    jphamlore @jphamlore

    It has been shown that UNIT scavenges any advanced extraterrestrial technology they can lay their hands on, including tech they should not have such as time travel tech.  Also they are mistrustful of the Doctor enough to fortify their hideaway to be impervious to a Tardis.

    It would not surprise me if UNIT therefore scavenged Missy’s Gallifeyan hard drive and are now playing with tech they don’t understand fully.  And perhaps there could be a version of Davros posing as one of their chief scientists.  After all, I think in the entire history of Dr. Who, the Doctor has been as angry at humans meddling with technology beyond the species wisdom and being tribally self as trying to help humans get themselves out of the messes they create.

    lisa @lisa

    I re-watched the Osgood scene in DinH again. When Missy says she wants to tell her something
    important Osgood answers “why would you want to tell ‘US’ plural. As if maybe she is referring
    to more than just one individual That may not be anything but just saying.
    Also Missy makes a big deal of Osgood ‘reaking of a smell’ and I believe that Zygons
    are supposed to have a smell. These are tiny bits of stuff but might be a significant indication
    that it wasn’t the real Osgood?

    gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar

    @lisa I don’t think it’s the real Osgood to but Osgood did say she would be more important to Missy if she was alive .Missy could have teleported her .That also might be how Missy lived .

    gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar

    I have a theory about Maises chacter . I think she is going to be the next compain . Moffat has been talking about her like thier going to expand on her charter for more than two episodes . I also think Maises charter is not from the olden times . I think she is a time traveler like The Doctor . She might even be like Captain Jack and be a con man . This might explain why Jenna was seen wereing a space suit on set . Lets aslo think about how Moffat said Jenna was going to be a guest star but she was really going to be the next Doctor Who compain .One last thought all the compains are from the present time london . If she can time travel than she needs a time machine but all the time machines are at Torchwood or UNIT and we know that Kate and UNIT are going to be in season 9 .Please tell me what you think about this theory .

    PaperMoon @papermoon

    @gamergirlavatar I remember the bit about River being a child of the TARDIS, but I don’t remember that as being the reason why she can fly it. Must be time for me to have a re-watch.

    ichabod @ichabod

    Proper pants are back again, according to photos of the filming of an episode with Osgood (whichever one she may be); I posted about it on the Faces of the Doctor, hope that’s not regarded as “spoiler” material, but if it is, Craig, could you please move that post here instead?  Otherwise that post is just — well — pants.

    gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar

    @ichabod I don’t think your pants post is a spoiler . I saw those pictures to . I think it’s great how Peter is so nice to his fans . I hate acters how are mean to there fans . But Osgood has been spotted . She seems to be helping The Doctor so it’s the real Osgood or there are now good Zygones . Moffat did created Rusty last season . But one things for sure , season nine is going to be great .

    gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar

    Moffat will be the head writer for season ten . I think this will be fine if he changes his writing style . He seems to be changing his style because there are a lot of two parters now and a cliff hanger .

    DenValdron @denvaldron

    I’m not sure that this is a spoiler.


    gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar

    @denvaldron trust me , my latest post is a spoiler . If Moffat stays head writer than that means same writing style from the last seasons . Something will follow The Doctor through out the season , the thing following him has something to do with the companion , than The Doctor and the companion save the day after some people die ( because of Moffat ) . Think of it , it happens every season .

    DenValdron @denvaldron

    @gamergirlavatar  Probably true.   Moffat has produced some very good stories and series, and he’s also done some very bad work, both in and out of Who.  If I have to make a principle complaint against Moffat, it would be the same complaint I would make against John Nathan Turner and even against Tom Baker at his height:  Too much power or influence in the production magnifies weaknesses, not strengths.   Basically, too much authority, and there is no one to gainsay or question or challenge bad decisions, bad impulses, or weaknesses in writing or production.  The strengths have nowhere to go, they remain and do not increase, but the flaws and weaknesses bloom like flowers in the desert.   This is Moffat’s problem.  There’s some things, a lot of things he does very well.  He keeps on doing those things.   Then there’s things he’s completely for shit for, and the problem is, there’s no one to rein that stuff in, stuff it in a mattress, get it under control or simply say ‘no.’

    Moffat has great ideas, he can do and get away with some very avante garde and head turning stuff.  He’s also got a good sense of pace.  On the other hand, he often doesn’t know what to do with his ideas.  He loses track of his narrative.  And he’s crap as a closer.  He’s genuinely not one for deep nuanced characterization.   Not much good with handling an arc.  Take a look at his Jekyl, which I love dearly, the strengths and flaws are both there – deeply moving scenes, complete nail biters, intriguing narrative trickery and a segue into near incoherence.

    I can pretty much guarantee that the upcoming season will be better than the last season.

    gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar

    @denvaldron I think you’re right . I think Moffat shouldn’t be head writer any more , but he should always be involved with the show . We do need some one to rein that stuff in and to say ” no ” . We need new ideas , new characterization , and most of all , a new writing style or Doctor Who is going to keep repeating and the ratings will keep dropping .

    DenValdron @denvaldron

    @gamergirlavatar  The problem isn’t really Moffat per se.  It’s almost a universal human condition.  A long time ago, I had a epiphany – that the creative impulse has no discrimination.  A creative impulse can lead to crap as easily as it can lead to genius, it doesn’t matter to the creative impulse.  Artists and writers are seldom the ones to judge their own work -that’s for critics and artists.   Basically, we’re the worst judges of our own talents, and we are often blind to our flaws.

    In terms of Moffat’s role as head writer… I could even be okay with that.  But he does need someone to rein in his flaws and say no.  In a sense, Moffat needs a boss, or an Editor or a Critic – someone that can physically curb his excesses.  Or he needs a team that can produce talent and work that covers his flaws.  Instead, what he has is a Kingdom, where no one can tell him ‘no’ or say  ‘that’s really stupid and we shouldn’t do it.’

    Have the ratings kept dropping?  I don’t know much about that side of it.  What I’ve heard is that the show went from success to success.  That the Matt Smith Doctor was the breakthrough Doctor for the United States, and that the Capaldi Doctor has expanded on this worldwide, particularly in Latin America.   If anything, the Capaldi Doctor seems bigger than ever.

    Which is odd, because I thought it was the most disappointing and lackluster season since the dregs of the Classic Series.  But then again, that may be a matter of perspective.   I was looking for something bigger, more ambitious, something that grew organically out of the events and promises of preceding seasons.   This season, in contrast was wandering, a collection of single episodes of varying quality, no real direction, no focus, no ambition.

    But perhaps this is perfect for a new audience to the show which doesn’t come to it with all the accumulated baggage.  Perhaps what I consider the failure of this season, was in fact a deliberate choice by Moffat, for particular reasons and goals, and which succeeded in terms of those reasons and goals.

    For whatever its worth, we have Moffat for another year, with both his strengths and weaknesses.  It’s possible that he may end up venting his worst excesses once again.  I expect that this new season will be better, if for no other reason than, from my perspective, I can’t imagine it being worse.  But honestly, several of the changes suggested seem to be for the better.  I have hopes for it.   And if those hopes are dashed, I’ll watch it anyway.

    But he won’t be in forever, and if this upcoming year represents his last year, or penultimate year, there may be changes in any case.  We might see him easing his grip, turning it over to the next generation, or just letting people do more.

    Consider John Nathan Turner, the Showrunner for the eighties – from Tom Baker’s final year, through to Sylvester McCoy.  My view, and the view of others, is that his long tenure was disastrous for the show.  It’s one of those things of having strengths and weaknesses, and once you get to a certain level, the amount of power or influence basically means that your weaknesses or flaws are uncontrolled and devour the production.  I think that he’s a classic example of what happens when someone has too much power.

    But if you look at the final seasons of the McCoy Doctor Who, there’s the impression that Turner had become disengaged from the show, no longer cared, was no longer so heavily invested.  He was tired of it.  And because he was getting tired, he allowed Andrew Cartmel in as script editor ….. again, a typical Turner choice, someone who had no real experience and therefore was not a potential challenger.  But as he released the reins, Cartmel seemed to come forward as a creative force and it actually got better.   The first season was abysmal, the second season started to have some good stories and ideas, the third was strong.  I think that’s generally attributed to Andrew Cartmel making a difference, rather than Turner getting a second wind.

    As far as Moffat goes, its complicated, its a mixture of the good and bad, and when he’s unrestricted in how bad he can be, he gets very bad.  When he’s good, he’s brilliant.    He’s had a few years, and he’ll have at least this upcoming year.  We’ll see what happens.  But there’s reasons to hope.

    gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar

    @denvaldron I don’t mean to repeat but you’re right . The artist are the worse to judge their work and the writes and the worse to judge their scrips . Moffat has done alot of great things for Doctor Who but like every writer he has his weaknesses . You’re right about him having a kingdom and I think he needs a boss as well but I guess the head writer is the boss .

    The ratings have been dropping . The first episode this season got about 8 million views and that dropped down to the 7th millions and kept dropping than in Last Christmas the ratings got back up to 8 million . I think this season was a good season but it had it’s dull times . I see why they are doing this new mood though . I think they should still have the dark mood and have stories like the ones form season 8 but they can still make it fun for families and kids to watch . They can still have their theories and all that but they need to add aliens and have it be about seeing new worlds . They can also bring back fan favorites like Captain Jack and some great creatures from the classic seasons ( I haven’t seen much of the Classic Who so I can not name them off the top of my head ) . Point is they can bring back companions and monsters that can work well with the dark mood but still make it fun for the families , kids , and their new audience to watch but they can not do that for every episode . They will still need to have Weeping Angles and space ships above Earth ( witch are great don’t get me wrong ) . They will still have episodes with trees and London but they can still try to get their old and new audience to both watch the show ( I think they are trying ) . But you’re right about Matt Smith being big in the states and Peter Capaldi bringing Doctor Who to the whole world .

    Moffat will stay for seasons nine and ten with good and bad ideas but I will keep watching the show . It looks like Moffat will start easing his grip in this season and I think this season will be great . Lets all hope that this season will be the best of them all .

    DenValdron @denvaldron

    I’m sorry to hear that the ratings have dropped through the course of the season (in the United Kingdom presumably?) but not terribly surprised.

    How do those ratings and the ratings trajectory compare to previous seasons?

    I certainly hope that Doctor Who can recover its British audience, but overall, my impression is that their support with the BBC is very strong.

    It’s going to be interesting to watch the creative personalities involved in the show over the next couple of years.


    gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar

    @denvaldron The first episode of New Who got about 10.56 million views . After the first season the views started dropping slowly over the through out other seasons . Season 8 had the lowest ratings but the ratings are still good and the U.S is watching alot of the show now . It also looks like the writers and every one else is started to see the ratings dropping so they will try to get the ratings up . This can change the show in great and new ways .

    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    There’s a whole thread on this thorny issue elsewhere on the site but god knows where.

    Doctor Who writer says changing viewing habits not affecting ratings

    ‘Doctor Who’ Showrunner Steven Moffat Talks Ratings, Season 9


    DenValdron @denvaldron

    @gamergirlavatar   It would be interesting to see what role international licensing plays for the series.   I can speak with some familiarity about Lexx and it’s financing arrangements, which might offer some insight.  Basically, a large market like the United States can self finance productions.   Smaller markets find it more difficult and depend much more on international sales.   It may well be that as a booming success overseas, Doctor Who is actually more lucrative and successful for the BBC than it was in the first year.

    gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar

    @denvaldron It would be interesting to see how this effects the show . I sure the U.S. will help the ratings and productions . There are alot of Doctor Who fans in the states . When they were filming the episode when Amy and Rory died ( for the last time ) there were alot of fans watching them film . Alot of fans also watched them film the first episodes of season six but they stayed far away from the set so they couldn’t tell what they were filming .

    gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar

    The crew has been filming in the south of Whales . Peter as been seen parachuting out of a plane . Jenna has been seen holding a UNIT bazooka but we don’t know what she’s pointing the bazooka at . We will also see Claras motorbike return for these episodes . Also one of my post , I got wrong , they were not filming in India , they started airing the show in India . Sorry about that . I don’t know how I misunderstood that up date . Osgood is still on set and UNIT is in episodes 3 and 4 . So it looks like episodes 3 and 4 will be great episodes and season nine will be a great season .

    lisa @lisa

    @gamergirlavatar Also heard rumor that someone had caught a pic and posted it on twitter
    of 2 Osgoods being filmed in 1 outdoor scene together??? If true that is interesting

    gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar

    @lisa I’m not sure of the picture of two Osgoods but I know there are pictures on twitter . There’s one of Jenna with the bazooka , one of Peter , and one of a woman who will ride the motorbike . I don’t know her name . She rides the bike in the show , that’s not Jenna .

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