Spoilers (3)
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Craig 8 years, 6 months ago.
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7 June 2017 at 21:51 #58694
I could have seen Moff do it (but he didn’t)
If I am not mistaken didn’t Moffat do exactly that at the beginning of S5?
Not disagreeing with your general point about the handover to Chibnall, though. In the Hay festival video that @wolfweed posted above, Moffat explicitly makes the point that he and Chibnall have been working on the handover together. (Which resolved a question I asked about that a few days ago.)
As for me, I am still hopeful that Michelle Gomez will somehow become the Doctor! Not that it will happen of course…
7 June 2017 at 22:46 #58695🙂 you’re right of course. How about Simm though. I think that might have been interesting to see as well (too well known though). However, I think they are going to have to bite the bullet and pick someone other than another white guy. I rather think Moff would (should) have done it already, but casting Peter was too good to miss.
re Michelle. I cant see it happening. If you cast a women, she’ll need to be either an extremely good actor, but unknown (a lot of charisma as well) or a major star already. Mind you I am pretty confident that whoever it is, has been cast already.
7 June 2017 at 22:51 #58696Exactly what @blenkinsopthebrave said. New Doctor + Amy Pond. The Eleventh Hour.
I’m sure I recall RTD saying he asked Moff where he needed the show “to be” – and it was Moff’s idea to keep Jenny alive, even though that didn’t pan out. I would imagine Moffat will no more wish to write Chibnall into a corner than Chibnall would want to be written into a corner.
8 June 2017 at 00:30 #58697Interesting ideas re. Gomez and Pearl (although the scuttlebutt on Mackie is depressing, I agree.) One of the key advantages of this approach is that the new Doc can hide in plain sight for the filming of the Christmas special and I wouldn’t put it past them to do something like this.
While I like the thinking behind the idea that it’s Pearl (and she’s more than proved that she’s got the acting chops for the part), I’m not sure I buy it. First of all, they kind of playfully tried this with Clara in Death in Heaven and I’m not sure they’d pull the same trick again.My other reservation is that there’s more to being the Doctor than what we see on-screen. You’re a more or less full-time ambassador for the show and you seem to be required to be ‘in character’ a lot of the time for junkets, interviews, conventions. I think it’s the reason why it helps to be a prior fan — Matt wasn’t, of course, but he’s to be commended for the passion with which he threw himself into the Who world. This is the reason why a lot of the casting suggestions we’ve seen can be written off, I think — I just can’t see the likes of Tilda Swinton or even John Simm throwing themselves into this world for the next three years.
On the other hand, I could totally see Gomez doing so and I disagree with @nick and would argue that Michelle has both the charisma and the acting chops for the part. And it would be an audacious and frankly excellent move for her to become the Doctor. But I think he’s probably right in that it won’t happen. (I think I also agree that they can’t really go for another ‘safe’ white, male Doc this time. The show needs to evolve and I think a vanilla Doc would be counter-productive at this point. It would look like cowardice and would give the impression that the show is stagnating. They’ve probably left it too long already.)
On the regeneration in general however, I suspect we’ve already seen this Doctor in one form or another, so maybe this chat about Pearl or Michelle is closer to the mark than we think. Since the 50th, we’ve been told again and again that faces re-occur or are prompted by external influences. I don’t think that’s been idle chat and I suspect SM has been planning his big regeneration finish for some time. And as we know that it’s going to be something out of the ordinary, I can’t imagine which other direction they could go. (But then with SM’s era, we’ve said that before.)
8 June 2017 at 01:12 #58698I didn’t mean to suggest she lacked either (although it seems I did). Changing a previously male role of that sort would be a difficult task for many actors. Playing evil convincingly requires serious talent (which is why Hollywood casts UK actors so often). I think switching from Master to Doctor, while playing the part is probably too big of an ask. Not impossible. Suppose Missy made some incredible sacrifice for the Doctor (before reappearing as Simms Master) as her act of redemption. That might create a scenario where the Doctor would become “Missy” as a form of memorial tribute. I suggest Bill is easier to do and asks less of the audience.
I wonder if we might expect a two part Christmas special ? Is this possible ? (I read/saw Moff saying something in an older interview that suggested it wasnt certain). Doing something extraordinary in the Christmas special with a Christmas setting for the kiddies is a difficult ask. Two parts avoids this. The alternative would be to make the Christmas Special D13’s first story ? This seems very unlikely.
8 June 2017 at 01:13 #58699Anonymous @
@pedant @nick @jimthefish @wolfweed
Well, that was a depressing read (re: Pearl). Oh, good grief, really?
As Mr P mentions they’re good with Libel laws (aware etc) so that if she’s turned diva, well, whoa, quite a shock but not necessarily unbelievable, I suppose.
I don’t want to believe it though!
True, true: Mr Jim, the actor becomes an icon doing TV, radio, panels, comic-con so they have to be a) professional b) available and c) likeable in every way. And I suspect not in a debut-role situation -which is the case with Pearl and almost the case with Mat (but he was special in his ability to throw himself around as you say).
Here’s what I don’t understand: in today’s insane world with video phones etc, how could a major co-star on ANY show, particularly, Who, be rude to anyone and get away with it?
We know David had a few affairs: the costume lady and eventually went on to marry his co-star (Doctor’s Daughter).
But love….different 😀
As for being “eye wateringly rude” I just wonder how anyone (Pearl) would think this would stay inside some Cone of Silence?
Heck!
Puro <miserable>
8 June 2017 at 01:21 #58700@thane15
Puro
I suspect many on the set would consider talking back to PC regarding acting to be very rude given its her first TV role. Anyway aren’t all actors meant to be difficult and actresses diva’s ( 🙂 ). So that’s par for the course.
In any case, even allowing for the necessary actor ego factor, I suspect she’d be pretty scared about having such a significant first major role. Forgetting to say hello to the necessary people is probably easier to do than you might think.
I guess everyone signs pretty heavy non-disclosure/confidentiality agreements, so using phone cameras on set is probably a career limiting move.
8 June 2017 at 01:31 #58701@thane15 @jimthefish
Random thought: @sirclockface reported Who film in Kettering ages ago, in a scene apparently set in WWII and reports of Jenna Coleman being seen (but not witnessed by him). A scene which has yet to see the light of day.
Now that really would send the ARSE brigade over the edge….
8 June 2017 at 01:35 #58702I guess thus sits alongside @wolfweed post earlier re hay festival.
8 June 2017 at 01:44 #58703That wouldn’t surprise me at all. If the radio times episode guide is to be believed, then a WW2 setting can only (?) be from the Doctor Falls ?
8 June 2017 at 01:50 #58704That was an interesting video -on SO many levels! Thank you.
28 mins discussing “being stuck at writing, so think of something else, it’s your internal editor”
What a gem of advice!
Then there’s the complicated discussion about “you’ve been accused of writing poor female characters: Irene Adler’s a dominatrix, Amy’s a stripper-gram…?”
What I really liked was when he explained that “the complaint” IS important”….very good indeed (of course those fools are wrong: Missy, Molly; Vastra; Jenny; Pressgang and on and on into the universe)
And again: “working with Chris to do something very different. The changing over.”
Hmmm. I like it.
Gosh, he’s a terrific guy: 28 mins with him and you learn about optimism in the face of dire friction, sexuality and its portrayal, how to write comedy vs horror as well as some difficult personal issues.
I will miss him for sure.
Puro.
8 June 2017 at 01:58 #58705yes @sirclockface! I was typing up a post about that and noticed (in my far too quick scanning: a discussion we’ve had before, btw) that you’d just mentioned that. We are certain the cars were WW2 ‘era’?
I’m a bit of a car buff. I know, right? Ridiculous. Brought up on a steady diet of “you bored? Come a fix this sports car with me, sis!” I usually just cleaned it with a cotton wool ball -yes, very precious of him. 🙂
Puro
8 June 2017 at 04:07 #58708@nick (sorry for the post splurge -but I woke up about 3 hours ago around the time during which our UK regulars go to bed: also they have a fuller life than I do at the mo, what with clinics and hospitals etc! 🙂 ).
Is it “par for the course” though?
I thought that the whole diva thing (which is woman-focussed term and tends to peeve me off -not your fault, btw, but I do find that interesting that it’s still used, I guess?) was pretty much gone.
Production is expensive, social media is rife with enough gossip to sink several titantics (including the one from the Christmas special!) and I thought these days actors know enough about the difficulty of the business that they surely wouldn’t risk their next job by ranting, cursing, speaking to one or ten individuals in any way that could be misinterpreted …
The one element that makes me question the PopB**ch rumour is that “Pearl was giving the Doctor advice -or lecturing him -on acting.”
I think we all know that Pearl and others have stated that the leads had many rehearsals, as long as it took and discussed exactly how the other lead would play a scene thus collaborating, talking and re-working emphasis etc. I got the impression Pearl is a chatty lass who would definitely talk all day long, if she could, picking the brain of someone like Peter over a variety of issues from “how to play this scene?” to “how can we improve diversity in TV-land?” to “what’s your opinion of Mark and Moffat since RTD?”
Perhaps a vivid and animated conversation has been interpreted as “lecturing” on Pearl’s behalf.
Kindest,
Puro
8 June 2017 at 10:50 #58710@thane15
Judge for yourself (and my original thoughts). Note ‘filming something with Coleman while she was still available’)
And, of course, who else would were an RAF coat?
8 June 2017 at 11:02 #58712@nick Suppose Missy made some incredible sacrifice for the Doctor (before reappearing as Simms Master) as her act of redemption.
You know, I have to confess — I’m not buying the “redemption” thing with Missy. I think she’ll go along with the Doctor’s hopes to convert her to a decent person up to a point, but her truly twisted nature (not twisted by her own doing, let’s remember — she is, in her own way, a tragic figure, which the Doctor himself well understands) will reassert itself with some firework-y act of treachery.
And thanks for the Hay Festival links — Angst! Blood! Anguish! Wah-hoo! Bring it!
And then a gentler Xmas coda for the soothing of raw souls . . . yes, please; I’ll have some of that. All that’s offered.
@thane15 Puro Gosh, he’s a terrific guy: 28 mins with him and you learn about optimism in the face of dire friction, sexuality and its portrayal, how to write comedy vs horror as well as some difficult personal issues.
Yes. And I need that good advice right now, about being “stuck”, and the need for persistence, and patience. Gods, yes. Moffat’s a mensch, and brilliant with it; it’s a pleasure and a privilege to get to spend some time with him in interviews and discussions.
Perhaps a vivid and animated conversation has been interpreted as “lecturing” on Pearl’s behalf.
Damn. I hope it was something like that, if the “diva” report is true at all. IMO, if Pearl is — or worse yet unfairly comes to be seen as — one of the factors in Peter’s decision to leave DW, her future career might suffer badly as a result; which would be a pity because she’s pretty damned good at this acting thing. Peter’s reputation is secure; she’s a relative beginner, and female, and POC. It’s no contest.
But — stuff happens. I recall fairly recent interviews with Mandy Patinkin in which he excoriated his younger actor-self as an obnoxious, arrogant idiot (which was an admission to something that was not exactly a secret to begin with). Acting is a crazy enough profession as it is, from what I’ve seen, without loading yourself down with the extra baggage of becoming known as difficult to work with.
8 June 2017 at 11:09 #58714aren’t there rumours that Barrowman did indeed film something ? That might fit in with Chibnall taking over ?
8 June 2017 at 11:11 #58715@ichabod Michelle Gomez suggested in an interview with io9.com that something like you’ve suggested will turn up in the finale! The central tragedy of this whole arc, of course, is that the Doctor trying to redeem her — to save her if he can — is the right thing to do. To save whomever he can if he can, instead of leaving them to the wolves…but he does have to do it without hope, witness, or reward to be truly virtuous. (sniff)
As for the stray filming information re-mentioned above, it wouldn’t seem to have anything to do with the season finale. As confirmed by Doctor Who Magazine previewing “World Enough and Time” (the first part — they’re saving talk about “The Doctor Falls” for a month, of course), the plot of that story involves a black hole, a space station, and time dilation* along with all those Cybermen and 2 Masters. Not sure how a wartime Earth setting fits in to it all, given how much is going on to start with. So…well, it would have to do with the Christmas special, but how? Wartime doesn’t sound like a soothing, redemptive setting for a Christmas adventure.
In the meantime, black hole = blackest pit! 😉
8 June 2017 at 11:21 #58717@nick and @pedant — if I ever see Barrowman again in Who it might be enough to tip me over the edge. For me Captain Jack will always be a potentially interesting character ruined by casting someone who couldn’t really act in the role.
But that’s a good call on that unexplained bit of filming. I think it would be highly likely that we’ll get some kind of callback to Clara at regeneration time and it would have made sense to film it at the time, particularly with her Victoria obligations.
And anything that upsets the ARSE brigade is fine by me. Which is possibly why I like the idea of Pearl in fact being the Doctor appeals to me.
@thane15 — I don’t think we should be too quick to damn Pearl either. Certainly not on the basis of some unattributed rumour on a gossip website. She might well be arrogant and rude, but she might equally be nervous as hell at getting such a high profile gig so young. Who hasn’t looked back on a time when their behaviour might have been considered impolite but which was actually unintentional. We all behave like dicks at some point, especially when young and/or under pressure.
And if she is developing diva tendencies, does that affect her ability to play the part, or for me to enjoy her performance? Not really. But it might affect her ability to ‘be’ the Doctor in all those extracurricular activities that come with the part. I’d say that might be more problematic. But then again, McGann was apparently quite snooty about the ‘anoraks’ to begin with before eventually warming to the fan community.
8 June 2017 at 11:33 #58718@missrori To save whomever he can if he can, instead of leaving them to the wolves…but he does have to do it without hope, witness, or reward to be truly virtuous. (sniff)
I’d put it this way: he doesn’t have to do it; it’s a choice. And he chooses to do it. He chooses to try for the best outcome, however unlikely it may be. That choice expresses exactly what kind of person he is, in essence, however widely he may stray from time to time (since he’s as imperfect like all of us).
8 June 2017 at 12:09 #587198 June 2017 at 12:10 #58720TheMoff synopsis from the Radio Times syas this about World Enough and Time:
Friendship drives the Doctor into the rashest decision of his life. Trapped on a giant spaceship, caught in the event horizon of a black hole, he witnesses the death of someone he is pledged to protect. Is there any way he can redeem his mistake? Are events already out of control? For once, time is the Time Lord’s enemy…
Given where we are today, this would appear to be either Missy or Bill ? (pledged to protect suggests Missy). Since the setting is a black hole, then it is possible that the Doctor sees the death before it has actually happened and tries to prevent it happening ?
That might well lead into the last story. At the Hay Festival Moff is quoted to say (I posted the link to digital spy above)
“I kind of do the angst in the series finale,” Moffat explained. “You’ll see how this pans out when you see the show, but finales are better at ‘last falls’, and moments of reflection, and anguish, and bloodbaths – which it certainly bloody is!
and he quoted as saying this about the Christmas Special
Whereas, Christmas Day isn’t a great day to kill off a children’s favourite. It can be sad – and it is – but to actually kill off lovely old Doctor Who is not what you want to see on Christmas Day. So it will be a tale of redemption, and hope, and deciding to carry on, instead of being a tale of the Doctor falling.
And while a regeneration might mark the end of a Doctor, Moffat argued that it’s not the same thing as dying – in fact, he thinks it’s deciding not to die. So I’m doing that. It’s an alternative to dying. You know, the Doctor is still there. He’s still in the universe, and he’s still living his life. He just has to make a massive change.
[I removed the quotation marks in the above as it seemed to cause problems on posting]
One interpretation might be that the Doctor tries to save Missy or Bill in “Doctor Falls” [there is a scene @wolfweed found in a Michelle Gomez interview that suggests Bill and Missy work together probably from the Doctor Falls), but becomes un-Doctorish as well as failing in his aim. Having failed, that would tie into Moff’s quotes about how he’s written the Christmas Special. Since he’s said that he’s working with Chris Chibnall to do something different with the regeneration, the massive change (regeneration) could well be voluntary.
Sounds interesting anyway.
8 June 2017 at 12:18 #58721@jimthefish I know there are fans out there who loved the Twelfth Doctor and Clara’s relationship, were heartbroken by how it worked out, and thus have been hoping ever since “Hell Bent” that it would get “proper” closure in some way. And since Moffat established in “The Time of the Doctor” that the Doctor gets a glimpse in his mind’s eye of the first person he saw/met when he regenerates, logically the Twelfth Doctor has to “see” Clara one last time, which would satisfy many of those fans because it would mean the mind wipe wore off or something and he has not lost the precious memories of her after all. The question is how that will be possible without raising the problem of them being the Hybrid and supposedly not being able to be together for the Greater Good and all that. (Even though the prophecy didn’t say anything about it inevitably being a force for evil.) And since Donna’s mind wipe was never undone, fans might cry foul if the Doctor’s is…even though it was everybody else’s fault that things got to that point for him in the first place. 😉
What to do, what to do? 😉
8 June 2017 at 12:21 #58722@thane15 @jimthefish
I managed to destroy a post, where I wrote something similar to Jim’s view. When the source is unattributed, you cant know how close to things there are and whether there is some jealousy in there. I could certainly envisage Pearl, in here first major gig – it is a very big part as well – , become over-serious with Peter, which could easily be interpreted her being a diva or rude. [just think of Olivier’s comment on Hoffman from the filming of Marathon Man].
In any case, so long as the “Talent” delivers, alot is forgiven. What isnt is putting on airs and graces, without the talent to deliver the goods.
8 June 2017 at 12:25 #58723@nick–
I’m reminded of the anecdote about the late Roger Moore, who was on set with a diva-ish Hollywood actor who was by all accounts making life hell for everyone on set. When Moore took the fellow aside to point this out, the guy exploded, saying he was there ‘to be a good actor, not win some goddam popularity contest’.
Moore’s reply apparently was, ‘well, you’ve failed at being a good actor. Why not go for the popularity contest?’
8 June 2017 at 12:26 #58724You know, I have to confess — I’m not buying the “redemption” thing with Missy. I think she’ll go along with the Doctor’s hopes to convert her to a decent person up to a point, but her truly twisted nature (not twisted by her own doing, let’s remember — she is, in her own way, a tragic figure, which the Doctor himself well understands) will reassert itself with some firework-y act of treachery.
Isn’t this what all of us are thinking ? Its the predictable view. I think Moff would probably try to subvert this. Therefore redemption (for Missy) is quite likely, but her twisted nature reverts with the Simm Master. Undoubtedly Missy must regenerate during one of the two final episodes, even if Simm turns up before she does.
8 June 2017 at 12:38 #58725@nick Yeah, the Doctor seeing the death before it happens seems to be in the cards to go by the Doctor Who Magazine preview. See, the ship ends up affected by time dilation in the black hole: two days pass at one end while 1000 years pass at the back. And who’s to say what happens in the middle? 😉 Which would explain a lot of what’s going on with multiple generations of Cybermen and two Masters running about!
On the other hand, having the Doctor become un-Doctor-y and failing in his quest to save someone — most likely Missy, who is with Bill, Nardole, and him to begin with because he’s decided that taking her with them will be the first step in redeeming her for good, by convincing her that she’s missed so much beauty in the universe, what they’d wanted to see together in their youth before it all went so wrong — would be a retread of “Heaven Sent”/”Hell Bent”, in which he gave up his principles to save Clara and ultimately didn’t get exactly what he wanted (her fully alive and safe without her memories — she’s undead, running about, and has her memories).
It could be Bill who dies, but having two companions die on this Doctor in a row on top of losing River would be piling on the angst, wouldn’t it? Also, this Doctor knows a change is in the cards for him. He’s known all along he’s facing the end, brooding about it at length.
What I think is more likely is that the Doctor fails not as a person — he does everything as right as he can, willing to give it all up in a truly selfless sacrifice — but in the sense of failing to redeem her as he’d hoped, and thus making his sacrifices, his goodness, seem to be all for naught. I don’t think the show would kill off the Master for good after all, but if she were to get away, or die and regenerate into someone who no longer cared about the Doctor’s friendship, etc., well, that would be awfully hard on him, especially if he did lose his companions (not necessarily to the grave) in the process.
So…that would leave a Doctor who has lost faith in the power of goodness, of virtue. He’s been his best self and for what? Maybe he questions whether Missy was right that he’s too idealistic. Whether virtue’s worth all the trouble in a universe that arcs not in the name of justice but cruelty, where the bad guys thrive and the good guys get stomped on. Whether he’s better off dead forever, instead of living again just to face the same sorrows.
And then in the Christmas special he is inspired to see that life is worth living, and virtue is worth pursuing. And he decides to put his sorrows behind him by shedding that broody old body that loved not wisely but too well, and start afresh.
8 June 2017 at 12:52 #58726@missrori fortunately you had me at the emoji ‘wink’ when you wrote this:
even though it was everybody else’s fault that things got to that point for him in the first place.
It’s true, I think that the Doctor had his choices, understood his ability and recognised his fault and made amends. I actually thought the Hybrid’s pretty sorted? But waaay back in 2015 I think this was comprehensively covered. I should check!
What I liked about Extremis and the next episodes was the point of the story: virtue untested is no kind of virtue at all. Reminds me of Adlai Stevenson: it’s far easier to fight for principles than live up to them. I think that this Doctor -if not all the Doctors have avoided the fight and chosen the more difficult path of living up to principles.
I’m with you on Barrowman: I liked him in 2005 -right at the beginning but he grated fairly quick. A lot of people here seem to think the same. The interwebs are so righteous about their need to have him do an encore. I’ll be fine if it’s just a large alien head in a jar!
Gosh yes! I’ve been a bully-girl at times. I’ve had to apologise once to a colleague (OK, more than once) for lecturing and hectoring so a younger actor in a high profile role comes with unimaginable stress. Trying to put her down (whether by listening to the rumours or adding to them) is schadenfreude.
Puro
8 June 2017 at 13:06 #58727@thane15 Good point about the Doctor usually choosing to live up to his principles. Peter Capaldi has said that in the end, the Doctor choosing to be kind and good whenever the “final” choice looms is what defines the character.
Since “Heaven Sent”/”Hell Bent” was based around him choosing to give up his principles for a while and realizing he was wrong, I would think that he will choose the nobler path in this season finale when he ends up in the blackest pit. The arc words of “Extremis” — “Without hope, without witness, without reward” — turn up again in “The Doctor Falls”. But he’ll be brokenhearted/broken down by his quest still failing, and his choices exacting a higher than usual price — he’ll only have the knowledge that he did the right thing to comfort him in the ashes, and for a lot of people, that comfort isn’t enough, which is why most people make the wrong choices. Perhaps he’ll fall into depression, send his companions away if they’re still by his side, prepare for the final end, give up on it all. And then something will happen to change his mind, give him hope, and move on; perhaps he finds a golden chance to do right and realizes just how much doing it actually means. Less A Christmas Carol than It’s a Wonderful Life, but still capable of being moving.
8 June 2017 at 14:17 #58728@missrori @thane15
It certainly seems like the final 3 stories of D12 era is going to be something along the lines suggested, although exactly why/how is unclear.
However if the Doctor 12 is to fall and then find redemption that directly leads to regeneration. An unusual regeneration, a christmas regeneration, which suggest (to me) a voluntary regeneration to redeem himself. The sort where the Doctor concludes that his current persona is flawed (choose a better word) and needs to regeneration to find his better self.
I think the fall would need to be really significant. This sounds like he not only fails to live up to his principles, but possibly also fails to act like a Doctor in his attempt to be true to his oath (perhaps the specific one regarding Missy, but also the wider one he must have to himself in order to be the Doctor). As you suggest this would refer back to the theme of the current trilogy of stories.
I agree that does sound very It’s a Wonderful Life. It would also be a way of having scenes with Clara – and others ? [Capt Jack, Rose etc] – as well as Doctor One (that old rumour). Who better than having his original self to remind him of who he really is ? At its broadest, the character arc of D1 is to evolve into being the Doctor out of the curious time traveler we originally see, under the influence of Ian & Barbara (and Susan).
That also sets things up for Chibnall to do a hard reboot and take the Doctor onto whatever different path he has in mind. His stories may well end up being more predictable/traditional, but I don’t think that necessarily means he can’t have a high concept for his reboot. I’m pretty sure that he’d have needed to convince the Who production team as well as the BBC hierarchy that he had some big ideas (as well as being a safe pair of hands) in order to get the job.
As a total aside, Philip Sandifer in his blog review of the Pilot suggested that Moff was bringing back Susan (http://www.eruditorumpress.com/blog/the-pilot-review/). Whilst he’s probably wrong on that, the analysis above seems to be consistent with the theme of the series IF we arent collectively deluding ourselves.
8 June 2017 at 14:34 #58730@missrori @thane15
I’ve just replied to your thoughts here. However, the system appears to have disappeared it after I edited and added a couple of additional thoughts. I have contacted Craig, so it may reappear.
and now its reappeared.
8 June 2017 at 16:24 #58735Aaaaand we can all breath a sigh of relief:
Fropm this week’s Popbitch:
>> Who knows? <<
Pearl before swinesTP writes:
“Your story last week about Pearl Mackie being a diva was bollocks. At BBC Roath Lock I never saw her be anything less than entirely lovely, not in a polite reserved way, but actually talking to everyone like she was part of the crew and not the talent.”8 June 2017 at 16:54 #58736@pedant, @missrori, @nick, @thane15, @jimthefish, @craig, et al,
Well, that’s good to know.And I wonder if this might be an appropriate point to pull back from the increasing tendency of late to refer to what is being said on other Who-related sites?
The original brief of this site was to provide a safe-haven from other places, as a home where Who enthusiasts could theorize, bonkerise and discuss. Existing in a pocket universe has been one of the principle strengths of this site. Personally, I am totally disinterested in what the rumours and scuttlebutt on other sites are, and much more interested in the erudite, civilized, and often wonderfully bonkers discussion that takes place here, unaffected and unsullied by other places.
Just a personal preference.
8 June 2017 at 17:45 #587378 June 2017 at 18:26 #58738That’s a big thumbs up from me. Apart from bonkerising, our mission statement is pretty much “we don’t give a fuck what other sites think”.
That would be the erudite version… 😉
8 June 2017 at 18:52 #58740How do I unburn all my Pearl Mackie memorabilia? (Only joking…)
8 June 2017 at 18:54 #58741@blenkinsopthebrave @pedant @craig @thane15 @missrori @jimthefish
I have a lot of sympathy for your point of view. However, I think it depends on what your view of “bonkers theory & discussion” should be is.
I think there has to be a discussion between the strong argument for limiting discussion to that based only what you’ve seen on screen OR the equally strong point of view that we should be open to wider sources, whether Radio Times, Interviews, unauthorised surveillance of location shoots right down to spoilers which are claimed to be (but may well not be) leaks by insiders or semi-insiders (ie there mates who’ve talked about stuff off the record).
Even more, is it inappropriate to use that spoiler based information, which may well have helped you, by collating and interpretation using some of that information, which has allowed you to create a bonkers theory. What is the line between taking your unique interpretation and discussing the concepts in the episode threads where you see evidence to support your own theory BUT without cross referencing and explaining all of your rationalisation/support.
When I posed the Bill thing above, I tried to make it clear to anyone that they should think twice before reading. I dont know if that claim will turn out to be true, but it clicked as plausible to me, because I could see events that have happened on screen to date, tie into the idea and that the arc concept the guy revealed could be used to explain a lot of the irregularities and strange things on screen to date.
However, I could also see that it could also be too spoilerish to some people, because it could close off their thinking and analysis, which might limit their ability to bonkerise. Also how many of us want to know what the season may be about before it happens (not that we will ever have 100 % certainty). It does take some of the mystery away. In my view there are spoilers and spoilers. I might not want to know some spoilers. But that’s a risk we all take isnt it ? Unless you avoid the Who element of the internet for the duration. It is always possible to come across something that appears credible (especially the best part of a year after it was written) completely by accident.
Say we collectively (or the inner core @craig and the mods) decided to ban spoilers entirely. Would this solve the problem ? I doubt it. Some of us would still look at spoilers on other sites, even if we werent able to talk about them here. Further once you know something (fact or otherwise) it cant help inform your own theories and interpretation. No one can help themselves in bringing those ideas here, even if they completely avoid revealing any of the sources, which have informed their thought processes.
My own opinion is that this particular pandora’s box isnt closeable. There is no solution that will work. Even if your avoid the spoiler thread entirely, you may still come across something.
The thing that makes this site special, apart from the large number of passionate informed people who debate, is the politeness and the absolute minimum of ARSE tendencies. Most (all) of us are passionate about Who and we can’t help becoming passionate about some of the things we argue in favour of or not. Yet, the debate has largely remained polite and positive. We might not change each others opinions that often, but at least we listen and debate rather than shout people down. We are also pretty welcoming to lurkers. For example, we saw a new user make a valuable contribution on the Lie of the land thread only a couple of days ago.
8 June 2017 at 18:58 #58742Agreed 100 % But are we in blinkers and ear muffs or not. I don’t read other who forum’s but I wouldn’t object to discussing ideas from other sites here and placing our own spin on them.
8 June 2017 at 20:06 #58744Maybe it will simply be a double regeneration. We haven’t seen that before…..
Hoping that Missy has a TARDIS with a Zero Room…
8 June 2017 at 20:27 #58745@nick @blenkinsopthebrave @pedant @thane15 @missrori @jimthefish @wolfweed
For what it’s worth (I am not this site, all you lovely people are and I’ve admired how you self-mod it) I have no problem with spoilers from other sites as long as they stay in “Spoilers” or “BBC Approved Spoilers” (and you’re mostly very good at knowing the difference). If people click here they know what to expect – rumours from other sites included.
What does annoy me is spoilers posted in non-spoilers threads. But as I said, you’re all very good at reprimanding someone gently as you realise it was probably a mistake due to over-enthusiasm and not vindictive or malicious. Thank you for that.
@nick asked for some way of hiding spoiler text in this thread – I guess the way Den of Geek do where you can only see the text if you hover over it – which I could do, but as it was in the “Spoiler” thread I don’t think that’s needed. If people click on “Spoilers” they should expect to get spoilers.
Rumours, “insider” info etc. is interesting to a lot of people who like spoilers and I agree it can stimulate new bonkers theories. The one thing I’m not keen on, and where I think some other sites fall down, is people stalking film crews, videoing actual filming and posting it. I may be being hypocritical on a spoilers thread but I’d never want to encourage people seeing crappy smartphone footage of a future scene.
That’s something I’d probably delete. But I’m quite happy for people to report info they got from elsewhere on the net if it’s something exciting and they think it will add to the site. I know you all have good judgement.
8 June 2017 at 20:40 #58746Well, my latest thoughts are that the Christmas special will be based on a hybrid. No, not that old chestnut, thankfully. Instead, I propose a variation of my thoughts in post https://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/forums/topic/spoilers-3/page/2/#post-57888. Bearing in mind the Christmas timing, the rumoured guest stars, Capaldi’s Oscar winning history, and The Moff’s stated story preferences, I think a hybrid of A Christmas Carol and It’s a Wonderful Life is on the cards (Tarot cards? No, that was last series…). My guess:
The Doctor fails in some way in The Doctor Falls, and ends up being mortally wounded/bound for death. Missy is tied up with this, and the Doctor will likely feel some guilt and/or regret related to her expected demise. He, probably harshly, adjudges himself wanting in his last actions, and once more questions if he is a “good man”. He chooses, as the Simm Master did in series 4, NOT to regenerate, and will thus truly die.
The Christmas special is D12 being shown he is actually a good man and should regenerate by the ghosts of regeneration past (D1), present (Clara), and future (D13? A D13-less universe?). Ultimately, he is convinced, given a new lease of life, and regenerates at peace with himself. Happy ending all round, glass of sherry for Granny.
8 June 2017 at 21:32 #58747@wolfweed — I had no idea until now just how polythene-y the Zero Room was — which leads me to think that the Doctor was technically guilty of fly-tipping when he jettisoned it.
On spoilers in general, I think I concur with @craig on the posting of camera phone footage snatched on location. I’m never really that interested myself and it does tend to just spoil the hard work of the production team for no real reason.
I think it’s a good idea to respect the sanctity of the rest of the site as possible but think that the Spoilers page should be pretty much fair game for anything else that’s out there and which might be of interest. On occasion this could well include something as gossipy as the Popbitch stuff, which @pedant did preface with a comment about how it might be relevant to ongoing discussion. To my mind, that’s fine and dandy, but at the same time I’m sure we don’t want the thread to become clogged up with bitchy scuttle-butt
8 June 2017 at 21:37 #58748@frobisher
That is a pretty good theory! I particularly like the idea that he will choose to die and then in the Christmas special he will choose to live. I wonder if it will be more It’s a Wonderful Life that A Christmas Carol, though, as Moffat has done A Christmas Carol quite explicitly in a previous Christmas special. So, rather than the ghosts of past, present and future, I wonder if it might be more a case of the angel from It’s a Wonderful Life, who could be….the first Doctor?In terms of what he fails at (or falls) and based on what Moffat has said, I am wondering if it is Missy who actually dies because of his failure, or dies saving him? If so, then might it be possible that when he regenerates in the Christmas special he does so (out of commitment his best friend) in the form of Missy, but who now has the the goodness of the Doctor?
Well, yes, I only came up with that theory to shoe-horn Michelle Gomez into becoming the new Doctor. But we can all dream, can’t we?
8 June 2017 at 21:43 #58749Not sure if this is the right place or not and I am not sure if this has possibly been discussed elsewherefor but here goes. On the topic of Pearl Makay possibly only being around for one season, my personal hope is she will be around for a while. In post gap Who it has not been unusual for companions to be there for only one season both Martha and Donna were there for only one season though admittedly Rose, Amy and Clara were multiple seasons. For Bill to be there for one season only would not be unprecedented and would essentially make it a 50/50 mix of multiple vs single series companions obviously not including co-companions like Rory and Captain Jack who were in part companion to companions. As to the earlier discussion as to what now appears to have been “fake news” about Ms Makay’s on set behaviour I really don’t believe the BeeB would have tolerated such behaviour probably resulting in the immediate termination of her contract irrespective of how it would have affected production, and there would certainly have been leaks from other reliable sources. My guess is that this was possibly a rumour started by the bigots who have had issues with Pearls character i.e. being gay etc.
8 June 2017 at 21:53 #58750The thing about spoilers is that 90% of them aren’t ruiners (if you don’t mind watching the series & next time trailers). But if you follow spoilers it’s easy to not know when to quit so as to avoid ruiners…
Online ruiners should be heralded as such in bold capitals with flashing lights…..
Round about now is probably the time to start winding down twitter… The ep 11 synopsis is out & it sounds like it might be a ruiner. That’s why I’ve not read it.
The next biggie is going to be who the next Doctor is. Are any of us going to be able to avoid that deep temptation…?
8 June 2017 at 22:01 #58751@frobisher and @blenkinsopthebrave–
I’m liking the It’s A Wonderful Life scenario and while this was sort of done in Turn Left, I’m wondering whether SM might do it in more explicit style.
On Missy, maybe she will turn good and her ‘evil’ subconscious forces her to regenerate (into Simm?) to ‘save’ itself. Or if there is to be interaction between the two Masters, perhaps he shows up as an evil version of The Three Doctors, to foil his future/past self from performing a good act. And if the Doctor fails to save her, maybe he takes on Missy’s form as a memorial/tribute. (Because I’m also loving the idea of Gomez as the Doctor.)
8 June 2017 at 22:06 #58753regarding the synopsis. Moff wrote a brief guide each episode in April in the Radio Times before the series aired (easily found on line). @missrori has more detailed information from the Dr Who Magazine, which is more recent (from what I gather).
Just curious is the synopsis you’re referring to in more detail than the April one (I appreciate you might not know).
Thanks
Nick
8 June 2017 at 22:09 #58755Love the idea of Gomez as the Doctor but don’t think it is likely. If she hadn’t already so brilliantly pulled off the gender change of the master I would have said she would have been an ideal candidate for the role of the first female Doctor she’s been charismatic and has shown brilliant acting skills.
8 June 2017 at 22:21 #58758I think it’s a longer Radio Times one that’s just been released.
I’m only guessing it’s a ruiner. (For ruiner think – ‘Tom Baker will appear as The Curator’ [see DOTD]) Gotta guess sometime if you follow spoilers, though… [If I had a memory worm I could read it & then forget it…(sigh*)]
Also, (amazingly) I’ve not even read the DWM spoilers for these upcoming eps…
I agree that @frobisher‘s idea is very good. I also enjoyed your cabbagey question earlier…..
Another bonkers theory – the Doctor will regenerate into 2 Doctors (A bit like the Green Party have 2 leaders)…
8 June 2017 at 22:28 #587599 June 2017 at 01:44 #58765@nick you’re very kind but my binker/bonkers ideas rarely come true!
Actually, I can’t remember what I said?
Ah yes, the cackly laugh: the Doctor isn’t the Doctor….and so, combining with what others above said, he has to die (Oh No: I find It’s a Wonderful Life so wonderful I cry thru it every year and every year I watch it again!).
@frobisher @jimthefish @blenkinsopthebrave
I like it! I think this could be the Oscar winner for Best Bonker’s theory.
I shall make a medal worn by the winners (with wreaths, of course: no, that’s the Olympics!).
Still, medals!
“the Doctor Falls” -I mean, how else can you read that except he really falls. And what if…..the Impossible Girl shows up again….(no, OK, we’re done with that arc) in the form of Clara in a vision, a loose idea: what if they have on board their own Diner Tardis a “watch the Doctor” room as 12 did when
stalkingwatching Lady Me.Puro.
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