The Fox Inn

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    Mersey @mersey

    @arbutus @puroandson @ichabod @pedant

    For those who are interested in art history and feminism here’s one of the crucial texts on the matter by Linda Nochlin ‘Why have there been no great woman artists?’. Short but very accurate.

    Anonymous @


    Oh thankyou very much: oh no, like my uncle I can’t play a note. My voice is totally flat. A few years ago Dad would say “my god, what’s wrong?” except nothing was. I was just singing. How embarrassing. I sounded like I was dying. My very first song I sang was Bonnie Tyler’s song from The Wimpy Kid. Boy did I love that -I can’t remember it now but it’s really hard to sing.

    I used to play the guitar for a few months but I’m LH and had to play RH so that was hard. I do like rock. Mum had me listen to Cat Stevens after saying “morning has broken was a rock choon but I why did I sing it in church?”.

    I checked and said “hey mum it’s a bloke called ‘Cat’ “. She was red and embarrassed she couldn’t remember. I’m getting used to his stuff  -at the moment I’ve discovered The Byrds. 8 miles High is awesome and complicated.

    Oh yeah, the muso thread. I’m not so clever for that though! @whisht has all these amazing songs. I don’t know how anyone can remember or  know so much music in one lifetime! @arbutus too.

    What do you happen to like?

    Puros Son

    Mersey @mersey
    Anonymous @

    right: I wrote stuff and then deleted it. Not sure what to make of it @mersey. Still, it arrives in your in-box the original way -I’m morphed up so who the F*** knows what I meant really.


    Anonymous @

    @mersey Oh, OK, I geddit now. There were whole other pages: the nude bit was classic.

    I’m just laughing at the post-mod cloddy way of writing: everything compressed into about 2000 words would have been most helpful. I wonder why I never ever came across this before? Hmm. A puzzle.

    Enjoy the day, people. I’ll try some wine now. 🙂

    Anonymous @

    <p style=”text-align: center;”>–</p>

    TheDentistOfDavros @thedentistofdavros


    I’ve never really had a taste in music which is a shame I just know that I don’t like much of that pop nonsense nowadays (doesn’t mean I don’t like change!) especially the bloody beaver (good name). I suppose I like old rock songs and yeah guitars are probably my favourite instrument. Most songs I hear now though are electronic which I’m not a fan off!

    Freddie Mercury/Queen is what I was listening to a few months ago, now I’ve got stayin’ alive by the beegees stuck in my head along with mr blue sky (heard it on some tv programme yesterday)

    I don’t think I’m clever enough to venture onto the music thread either, gotta respect those with encyclopaedic knowledge e.g. @whisht & @arbutus

    Anonymous @


    Of course you are! venture away. Pop any old song you like on there. In about oh, 5 weeks it’ll be my birthday and in the fashion of Whisht I’ll ask for a song from people that they like -any old song at all. It’s great idea. A @whisht tradition.


    PS: Less morphed up today so, you know, that’s good.

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @thedentistofdavros       Oh, no, not encyclopedic at all! I have been introduced to so much great music on here that I had never heard before. And the really humbling bit is when six other people come on and say things like “Oh, classic!” and “Great memories!” and I’m going, “Well, all right, then. I guess everyone’s heard this band except me!”  🙂

    I know a fair amount of classical music because A, I studied it, and B, my husband, who studied even more of it, has a truly scary memory for music. If it’s classical and he’s heard it, he never seems to forget it. He can identify symphony orchestras by how their brass sections sound, for Pete’s sake.

    (Incidentally, he does the same thing with wine. How many times have I brought home something “new”, and he says, “Oh, yes, we had that about 6 years ago and so-and-so’s house, it was pretty good.” Or whatever.)

    @thedentistofdavros, I will go over to the music thread and post something for you. Do come and post something back! Anything, something you like. That’s the point. By the way, Freddie Mercury was phenomenal!


    (to the pub since it is more appropriate than Music).


    And there is no group as adept as the English middle and upper classes at displaying contempt towards the working class.

    This council estate-raised son of a truck driver agrees with you wholeheartedly. I really really don’t need the manners and mores of the petit-bourgoise explained. I grew up dealing with it every day as a poor person in a wealthy town. So: your point?

    If it was a new story you might have one.

    But the navvies came over because the Englishmen wouldn’t do the work;  the crops are gathered in East Anglia by Portuguese transient workers (who were nearly burned out of a pub during Euro 2008 for having the brass-bound nerve to cheer for their team) because the native youth won’t do the work; pretty well every corner shop is open after dark because East African Asians who had to abandon every single thing they had came here and worked every hour god sends.

    And the irony of that last one? Out in the ‘burbs, the third generation of Asians are starting to show the same indolence as the natives. It will only be a matter of time before they start blaming others for their woes too. They’ve caught English, and its driving teachers nuts.

    It was my great good fortune to go to a Uni with more the 50% overseas students (couldn’t do it now because of the debt – no sugar daddy for me. Mum and Dad couldn’t even afford their statutory contribution of £200 a year).

    But I haven’t seen a single voice on the Remain camp threaten rape or murder on those disagreeing with them. And I’ve lost count of the accusations of treason and the sheer hatred of “foreign” from people who would never think to say “hello” to the person serving their coffee.

    So spare me the moral relativism.


    Missy @missy

    Greetings fellow Whovians.  Today I get linked up with the NBN (Australians will know what that is) this involves connecting a new modem, plus connecting our land-line phone to the modem. I have no idea how to do this, so a chap from my IP is going to talk me through it tomorrow.

    I could go off air (so to speak) any minute now, so can’t read or answer any posts – yet. I simply wanted to let you know that I wasn’t ignoring you. It could take a couple of days.

    Wish me luck,


    lisa @lisa

    Hi guys

    I think I might feel a tiny regret butting into this conversation however I am curious about something

    when  you vote tomorrow.  It seems to me that Norway and Switzerland are doing fine and aren’t

    in the EU.  It also appears that the EU is going broke.  They have been issuing bonds with negative

    interest rates.  So what I’m wondering is apart from the other Brexit/Bremain issues , why would

    the British people want to stay a part of this broken system?  From my vantage point it looks like

    the EU is taking advantage of your still solvent economy and not really delivering back to you equal

    significant value although I could be wrong?  I understand about the other ‘grand EU scheme’  issues.

    They are really  great and noble notions.  But just on the economic issue its confusing.

    I believe, although I could be wrong  about this, it seems that the EU needs the UK more than the

    UK needs the EU on a financial basis.

    Seems to me that it puts you in a brilliant negotiating position to pretty much get whatever deals

    you might want if you end up voting for the exit. Its the EU that is in the tougher position.

    So,  can you explain to me if I am wrong in this regard  – why ?


    Happy Birthday Miss  @Puroandson  !  I will find a good tune for you and hoping  everyone

    on the forum  is in good health !   🙂


    Anonymous @


    Good to hear from you -know you’re busy with the US campaign: as for my b’day (I should have explained better) it’s not till the end of July. I was mentioning to @thedentistofdavros that courtesy of another member we tend to put up songs as ‘gifts’ which is terrific in the music section.

    Anyway, I have a year or more before the big ‘5 0’ -if it happens and I’m optimistic at the moment 🙂

    Keep up the good work. As for the EU questions -they’re great ones and I can’t find answers to that either although I’ve found a  lot of info on this great Forum in the debates offered by @whisht and @pedant (to name a couple only) which is fabulous. It’s hard to keep calm about this sensitive issue and to me a lot of ‘calm’ usually brings complacency which isn’t good. “No way Jose” as Puricle would say.



    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    This council estate-raised son of a truck driver agrees with you wholeheartedly. I really really don’t need the manners and mores of the petit-bourgoise explained. I grew up dealing with it every day as a poor person in a wealthy town. So: your point?

    And I live and work in an area that is by some measures one of the top five deprived areas in the country. I don’t commute into it for work, I live here – and have done for nearly twenty years. A hell of a lot of people here, probably the majority, are voting Leave. And I know them, and I am getting angry when middle class people with very comfortable lives tell lies about them. Seemingly because they are daring to have an opinion which differs from their ‘betters’.

    because the native youth won’t do the work;

    Please tell me whether you would? Not ‘the native youth’, not ‘the working class’. Would YOU?

    Because personally, in my life, I’ve shovelled sh*t. I’ve worked until 2am in a city centre burger bar. I’ve done quite a few of the nasty jobs – and let me tell you, having done them I wouldn’t willingly do them again unless there was no other job on offer. Again, I live among ‘the native youth’ and one hell of a lot of them are working. They have jobs, or they’re training for jobs, and often it isn’t really the job they wanted or dreamt of – but they’re damn well doing it.

    Are you willing to gather the crops? Not ‘the native youth’, YOU? Are you willing to start at seven and stay open until 1am? Again, not ‘the native youth’. YOU.

    Because if you’re not, then don’t you dare call yourself a socialist – not when you disparage the working class of this country for wanting the exactly the same things that you want. A better job than the insecure, badly paid, back-breaking, wet, cold work that is, for example, picking our potatoes.

    So, your point?

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    But I haven’t seen a single voice on the Remain camp threaten rape or murder on those disagreeing with them.

    No, not rape or murder. Suppression of voting rights, accusations of genocide, racist posts when a black writer announces she’s voting to Leave. I’ve seen those.

    But can you tell me that some in the Remain camp haven’t excused or ignored the rape and murder of others? When the political cause was fashionable enough?

    Whisht @whisht

    Hi @lisa – apologies for late reply (well, its 1am for me!).

    A really good question on your part.
    We probably do put in more than we take out. That’s kind of the slightly-Socialist sensibility that the EU is set up for (ie the strong look after the weak when necessary).
    That’s massively simplistic on my part, and I’m sure I’ve said it clumsily.

    So, if you don’t mind I’ll sidestep a little and say that for me its not ‘just’ about the money.
    For me my head and my heart were aligned.

    My heart said that we should be outward looking, looking to influence for good, working with others rather than being afraid of them. All that woolly stuff hearts are good at.
    Also as a son of economic migrants, I kinda felt that you can’t pull up the drawbridge on others.

    That was my heart.

    My head didn’t want my politicians distracted for the next 4-7 years in re-negotiating trade deals – I want them focusing on local and national issues.
    My head also thought that everyone seems to agree that the EU needs reforming (including those who want to remain). Fair enough. So how do you best influence the EU? By being outside it?? No, stay in and influence it.
    My head also thought that re-negotiation would probably be win a little, lose a little across a number of deals. So we’ll probably be roughly where we are today after all the turmoil of ‘leaving’ including free movement of travel for people across the EU.

    But it was my gut that had had enough. My bile was raised by the lies, disinformation, cynicism and manipulation.

    I really shouldn’t have said anything as its obviously a contentious issue (and now I’ve done it twice – once stoopidly mentioning a female Doctor and now this! I’ll be modded for sure!).

    Now, who wants to talk about religion….?


    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    Yup, contentious. And I really was trying to stay calm. Oh, well. Apologies.

    On the bright side, it’s a good turnout, with a lot of people who don’t normally vote getting engaged.

    The other bright side is that a lot of the talking heads are saying ‘the message is that we haven’t been listening’. If they actually believe that, rather than just saying it, that’s a result. Whoever wins.

    Anonymous @


    Religion: oh you really ARE a hound.

    @lisa it certainly is/was contentious. Just heard that the Brit PM will resign by October. Or so the nurses tell me -which is  a problem as they really can’t tell me very much. These are British nurses, you understand 🙂  who know very little about their country and are backpacking and earning a handy buck.


    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    Yes, Mr Cameron has announced that he’s resigned. He’ll stay on as caretaker PM with a caretaker Cabinet while the Conservative party runs a leadership election. Currently rumours are also flying of a vote against the Labour leader as well.

    On the whole, ‘earthquake’ probably isn’t too big a word.



    And I live and work in an area that is by some measures one of the top five deprived areas in the country. I don’t commute into it for work, I live here

    Where I lived for many years (as well as its south London counterpart).

    Please tell me whether you would?

    I did all sorts of lowly work when I was that age (engineering companies with the most basic H&S attitudes (eh safety equipment turned off), stuffing envelopes and stupid o’clock,  bar work, shop work, standing out the sub-sero doing traffic surveys). Whatever I could get some cash, I did. You are not the only person to have put in a hard shift. I know this is a shock to you.

    The point with the fenland youth is that they were not doing other jobs. Of any sort. Nor were they in education. They. Wouldn’t. Do. The. Work (nice to see you supporting the exploitation of immigrant labour though).

    Because if you’re not, then don’t you dare call yourself a socialist

    It is probably just as well I’ve never done that then. Perhaps you were confused by the fact that I have read a few books as well as worked for living (for the past 15 years with no company or public sector back-up and entirely on a “Don’t work, don’t eat” basis. Four years ago I was budgeting day-to-day, since I was also dealing with clinical depression).


    The word you are looking for is total and utter catastrophe. OK, that was four words. We are playing Russian roulette with the economy as fascists across Europe congratulate us. All brought about by the meeting of Cameron’s hubris and Johnson’s vanity.

    Top question on UK Google today: “What does it mean to leave the EU?”

    Well, what it means for all of the area that voted most heavily for Leave, is that the regional development programmes, which were funded entirely with EU money and that underwrite their economies are stuffed. Foot, meet gun. Swansea voted leave despite having just taken a shit load of EU money to build a new university campus and you really don’t want to get me started on the dickhead from Cornwall.

    Might have been handy to ask first, don’t you think?

    Mostly I think @sirclockface and his sister have had their futures utterly, utterly betrayed (the youth vote was 75% Remain).


    That’s kind of the slightly-Socialist sensibility

    The left of the Labour Party (and to the left) of that regard the EU as a capitalist club.

    TheDentistOfDavros @thedentistofdavros

    Well it seems as though there’s going to be another Scottish Independence Referendum and this time I’m going to be eligible to vote!

    I’m not sure what Northern Ireland are doing seen as there was a majority vote to remain, maybe action will be taken there?

    Anonymous @


    Might have been handy to ask first, don’t you think?

    Yes entirely right.

    I have met weirdos (OK, people) who, from the British Isles (their words) who say “anyone can come into our island and that’s a bad thing.” Not a one said “you know, that college, that uni, that thing-thing was built by EU money. Oh and stuff the kids.”

    It’s a damn shame. And a vote for the stupids who basically know very, very little about the history of their forebears.

    Still, I’m an Aussie and this argument should be led by the English.

    So how long has England been in the UK? Help?

    Also, my discussion with the relatives aint going down well.

    This is their exact argument: (which is roaring).

    I said: “but whole colleges have been built by EU money AND the young ones won’t work. They won’t [work]”

    Theirs: “you fuckin idiot. We’ve been in the EU for over 40 years not 15. You fuckin idiot [there was lots of swearing so just skip that and get to the nub.] on top of which a) immigrants are taking jobs (I said ‘fuck’ then) b) how much do you fucking think (no they’re still swearing at me) it costs for them to be in the EU, huhn? Tell me? 350 million? 350 billion? c) the issue is a shortage of housing [not sure if that was relevant] d) the kids now WILL work but don’t because they get welfare [yep, OK I get it] e) the immigrants are prepared to do ALL the work and so that’s a bad thing.

    That’s the relatives shitty argument and I’m thinking, “hell, I can’t answer b) at ALL!”

    The house is fascist. I live with fascist people. I’m immigrating!

    <Now you know how thick Puro is about the EU>

    Anonymous @


    Oh Judas Priest it’s better I stick to music except we have @whisht who always says “oh I stay away from these things because I don’t know a lot about literature etc” and I’ve now discovered (of course I always knew) that Whisht has a tremendous knowledge of politics and economics and how it’s basically about give and take and I (who prattle on about sound and vision, metaphor and simile in Who) know zilch about the things that matter.

    Anyway, this is not about me and yet I’m making it about me -about how people –like me- need to know more, and argue better to convince those around us of what is morally decent and economically correct.

    I swear, without @pedant @whisht‘s arguments I would be in the dark. I think Aus news has been very poor indeed explaining the EU to us Aussies. So thank you to those members on this Forum who have been very patient in explaining these issues to all of us -to @whisht and @pedant and others a hearty gargleblaster!!

    Give me an entire Wagner Ring Cycle to analyse and not the budget of the EU any day!

    Anonymous @

    @pedant @bluesqueakpip @whisht

    The argument is now blasting away:

    1) immigrants coming into the UK are set up, paid for and given some work -this is bad (apparently)

    2) the EU is giving hand-outs to large groups of people so the entire EU is ‘free’ which means the English is not for the English -not anymore

    This is the level of pathetic debate in my house from a brother  (and the husband is also turning fascist. Eek) who, I might add, used to say that “if women didn’t work then there would be enough jobs for their husbands.”

    Oh I remember Christmas of ’93 when he said that. A very frosty Christmas where his own daughter cackled and pointed at him.

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @puroandson   @all     I watched the results come in last night (8 hour time difference so not terribly late here), and when it was all over, I couldn’t help but think, well, the shit has really hit it now, and we’d all better duck. I can’t help but think that there are challenging times ahead no matter what side you’re on (of course, the times have been challenging for awhile now, haven’t they?). I do feel for the young people who might find it less easy to participate in the global economy now, as they really tend to have a world-view much broader than that of older people like myself.

    I had a long and interesting talk about it with my son, who is almost 17 and an interesting combination of idealist and pragmatist. In his view, a move away from unity is never a good thing, because he thinks that the world can only end one of two ways, that is, in either a largely unified and mostly equal society, or a divided one in which the haves become increasingly separated from the have nots into a very dystopian world. He spoke lengthily about his ideal that everyone should have equal opportunities, pieces of the pie, etc. I pointed out that this is of course socialism, and while it may seem like a no-brainer to us, not everyone is on board with it. I love hearing his views, as the future is in the hands of him and his friends, which gives me some reason for optimism.

    At the same time, his “glass half full” view is that at least the Scots will have another crack at independence now. As a one-quarter Scot, he was greatly saddened that they didn’t make it happen last time. It seems like a contradictory view, but maybe not completely. It amuses me that although he is Canadian-born, (fourth-generation along one branch), none of his immigrant friends could feel more tied to the motherland and nationalist pride in their roots than he does in his 1/4 this, 1/4 that, from various parts of northern Europe!

    By the way, Puro, I’m always being told that if women didn’t work, the economy would collapse! Although, I also read someone’s view earlier today that cyclists are bad for the economy because they don’t spend money.   ?????   I thought, my husband’s a cyclist and he spends loads (much of it on music, coffee, and microbrewery beer, I might add).

    Kharis @kharis

    I’m bringing this to the pub, since I have no idea where to post, and sense I’m a little toasted I thought ‘The Fox Inn’ would be best…

    @ichabod and @puroandson very interesting evaluations and deductions as usual.

    @missy I am also struggling more than I care to admit with a year off of Doctor Who and Sherlock.  It’s like withdrawal or worse.  /:

    @doctordani Heavens, I hope so, River and and 12 are amazing together, but I pray your theory about 12 is wrong.  I can’t even take the idea of it.  I refuse to accept Peter leaving, at least not for another 12 years or so, I will protest in the streets and demand he returns.

    I had a thought (could be the blackberry wine talking) after watching ‘The Husbands of River Song’ for (actually it best not to give a number on how many times I’ve watched this episode or ‘Heaven Sent’) let’s just say the fourth time, I realised that River has a costume with raven wings, and if you subscribe to my crazy theory on Tasha Lem, she is also sporting raven wings on her outfit when driving the TARDIS.  Just saying.  Also, little miss Charlotte has a picture of a raven behind her, that we assume she painted.  Also, just saying.

    Back to my wine, my reruns and feeling sorry for myself.

    Kharis @kharis

    …and yes, I’m saying Clara’s death was orchestrated, needed, and meant to happen by the people closest to the Doctor.  It was always her destiny, that’s why the name Ravenwood and the necklaces.

    ichabod @ichabod

    @kharis  I’m saying Clara’s death was orchestrated, needed, and meant to happen by the people closest to the Doctor. It was always her destiny, that’s why the name Ravenwood and the necklaces.

    This is intriguing and I want to give it some thought, but I can only make very limited sense of it, myself.

    You aren’t positing an actual conspiracy to kill Clara among the people closest to the Doctor, are you?  I would take them to be, Missy, River, Ohila, Vastra’s household, Davros in his own peculiar way, maybe (sort of) Ashildr — I’m sure I’ve missed some.  I just don’t see any evidence of collusion among these folks, or motives to kill Clara that they share.  Individually, of course, some have their own reasons to want to wound the Doctor, out of grudges and spite, and killing Clara certainly hurt him.  Missy enjoys using Clara for her own purposes, but she doesn’t seem anxious to *kill* her — why kill the entertainment, which is moreover so weak and puny in your eyes that it poses no threat?  Why does Ashildr or Vastra need Clara to die?

    Actually, there’s nothing about Clara per se that makes her a prime target, so far as I can see; anyone who knows the Doctor knows that he’s had many companions; they come and go but rarely die on his watch.  Why her, in particular?

    Because she’s one half of the hybrid?  But who really knows that until Hell Bent, when she’s already been killed?  It’s in Hell Bent that the Doctor himself comes up with the reason that she’s dangerous — and even then, she’s not dangerous by herself.  She’s half of a deeply dangerous hybrid when linked to the Doctor, because she makes *him* more dangerous.  Besides, the Doctor is a clever fellow: as soon as he understands that the hybrid is Doctor + Clara, he moves (as his intimates must expect that he would) to separate from her in a decisive and irreversible manner, so — why kill Clara?

    My understanding of the situation is that once Clara connected up with the Doctor and became his obsession, *the universe* needed them separated so that he could go on being the Doctor to everyone who needs his help, not first and foremost her guardian and partisan.  She didn’t need to die for that to happen; she just needed to accept the necessity of parting.  Ohila might have seen that larger necessity of restoring him to being a fully free agent, but who did she conspire with, and how, to get Clara killed?

    Finally, there is an interview with Moffat (Radio Times, I think) in which he says quite clearly that Face the Raven was deliberately designed and carefully tuned so that it was clear that *nobody* caused it deliberately — it wasn’t  meant to be but the same damn-fool combination of accidental factors and various misjudgments as the accident that killed Danny — a human death, although she’s a human enhanced by her travels with the Doctor.  Once she stopped being the Impossible Girl, she had no “destiny”, no more than any of us do.  It’s the nature of mortality for a species as fragile and short lived as ours.  In the Whoniverse, I see a difference between “Fixed Points” and the idea of “destiny”, because DW stresses the crucial nature of Free Will in the exercise of individual ethical judgment, Fixed Points are there to keep time untangled, not to cement certain persons into certain roles or actions.

    As for the raven necklace and “Ravenswood”, that looks to me like simply thematic foreshadowing of future events, cues to help weave the episodes together.  But I’m interested in your case for a conspiracy — maybe you made it fully back somewhere in the discussion already, but I can’t find it (which also means that I may have miss-stated the details of your position, so I welcome correction).

    Anonymous @

    @missrori (thought I’d bring you along from the Husband’s thread!)

    @kharis (how are you Kharis my dear? Long time no see)


    Yes, I feel that the Doctor would be tracked via his relationship with this once Impossible Girl, who, to some extent like River, can be used to hijack the Doctor and delimit his freedom. The Doctor should not have relationships with those who can sink him -or he himself can sink (we know of Adelaide and others who explain the consequence -usually tragic – of the Doctor Victorious).

    @arbutus – I think after my brother’s ‘helpful point’ about women, several such ladeez began pelting food. Food which the women had prepared (of course!).

    Your son sounds like a very politically orientated lad with thoughtful opinions. Indeed it is socialist -considering that these concepts have moved somewhat and that various Liberal (conservative)politicians in the 70s and 80s are now horrified by the equivalent Liberals in today’s parliament. Things move right or not at all -it seems. Although the blatherous groups cry “oh we are a Communist nation as we believe in free health and our ABC (funded by our own taxes) is also Communist.”

    It’s enough to make one weep and immigrate. But whence?

    Yes, cyclists -oh boy do they spend $$ here! On the road at 8 am on a Saturday and Sunday, totally cruisin’ over the other traffic and stopping at brekky bars all over town for a full cooked breakfast and several macchiato and ‘water -no gas’. Also, orange juice: freshly squeezed at $12 a glass. These are well off little scooter men! And yes, every barista loves the tips 🙂

    We don’t have tipping here in Oz -but it’s creeping in. I’d be happy to tip my barista (as it were) if I was charged less than five bucks for a weak, milky coffee. If I have a new kitchen I will barricade all barracuda-like baristas and purchase my own machine!! Oops, now I might be targeted as fascist!

    Kharis @kharis

    @ichabod  Everything you said makes sense, brilliant observations.

    Loved this bit, “Once she stopped being the Impossible Girl, she had no “destiny”, no more than any of us do.  It’s the nature of mortality for a species as fragile and short lived as ours.  In the Whoniverse, I see a difference between “Fixed Points” and the idea of “destiny”, because DW stresses the crucial nature of Free Will in the exercise of individual ethical judgment, Fixed Points are there to keep time untangled, not to cement certain persons into certain roles or actions.”

    Yes, which (now sober) I can see there probably isn’t much to my musings.  (;

    Here are some of my very unformed thoughts: I’ve always been a little suspicious of how the cracks got there in the first place.  After it was explained on Gallifrey that Clara living outside of the isolation room with her heart beats time locked would rip a tear in space and time,  I got to wondering if this is where the crack started.   Sort of a very odd bootstrap paradox? Since I am convinced River is Tasha Lem it furthers my questions about River’s relationship to the church that tried to stop the Doctor creating the crack in time.  She was engineered by the church to be a weapon, but also the child of the Doctor’s best friends, she tried to kill him in the same episode she gave up her regenerations to save his life, if River is Tasha Lem she heads the very church that engineered her, she kills him and then freezes time itself to keep him alive, basically her whole life is a constant dichotomy.  River is always torn between the church’s desire and her own Free Will.

    Maybe Clara was chosen to save the Doctor by Missy, ME, and the Time Lords, but at the same time she may have needed to be eradicated by the people with foresight from a possible second future, a Valeyard future.   I think it’s odd how her mother is Ravenswood, so Raven as protector who will always find her, River is shown as protector and connected to Clara and is shown wearing a raven feather cape, and then when Tasha comes to help Clara she is dressed as a raven.  So Raven is helper and death at the same time, which holds true in most symbolic versions of the raven.  The raven is also associated with the void, or black holes, which would fit Clara.  Above all raven is seen as a trickster and bringer of wisdom, prophesy and death.  Raven comes to her like a dark angel to help and guide, but at the same time is the destiny, is death “As you come into this world, something else is also born. You begin your life, and it begins a journey towards you. It moves slowly, but it never stops. Wherever you go, whatever path you take, it will follow. Never faster, never slower. Always coming. You will run, it will walk. You will rest, it will not. One day, you will linger in the same place too long. You will sit too still or sleep too deep. And when, too late, you rise to go, you will notice a second shadow next to yours. Your life will then be over.  I feel like their is a connection, I haven’t worked it out yet but I’m going to chew on it now that I’m sober.  (:  What do you think?

    Kharis @kharis

    @puroandson Hello!  Doing alright except the last two days have been a little rough, some money was stolen online, had to involve the FBI, have no idea what’s going to happen.  Very stressful. How are you doing?  How is your family surviving the year off from Doctor Who?

    Agree, “The Doctor should not have relationships with those who can sink him -or he himself can sink (we know of Adelaide and others who explain the consequence -usually tragic – of the Doctor Victorious).”  This path seems to lead down the Valeyard street for sure, and who would be keen to stop that?  The Time Lords, ME and Missy.

    Anonymous @


    that’s horrible!  On the Forum we had some hairy discussions about loss/theft of impt documentation due to faulty back ups recently. But we didn’t broach the worst thing which is money loss on line or via credit card facilities.

    This happened to us in January but it was a small amount and so the bank gave it ‘back’. Thing is, that doesn’t always happen. I have a firm belief in not using the computer on line for any transactions beyond $100 as well as having a small visa card top up for online purchases. My brother swears it’s fine until it’s not.  Bad stuff: truly, I feel for you and really hope that you can get immediate assistance.

    Here, Defence works its officers very well with this type of fraud: no bank accts on line for any officer which is helpful but not always doable. I’ll wing a wish of goodness your way (and hell to the thieves)

    Yes, missing Who but instead was engrossed in House, tWalking Dead (sort of), now Boston Legal and soon to begin Rectify and The Leftovers.

    Anonymous @


    I missed your musings above -the Ravenswood angle, the nature of River as head of Church and lover of the Doctor who had to stop the cracks in time -they may have been Gallifrey calling out to the Doctor -but who is say those cracks don’t spread a little deeper? Where one crack opens, another arises and someone falls in…

    I like it.

    I loved your mention of the Doctor’s words as he understood death: and I read it in my head with Capaldi’s voice. That was beautifully rendered wasn’t it? Whilst I loved Smith’s Akehaton’s speech as well as his Pandorica one, it is this speech (above) which remains flawless in my mind.


    Mudlark @mudlark


    So how long has England been in the UK? Help?

    Answer: 309 years, since the Act of Union of 1707 which united Scotland and England politically and economically.  The two countries had shared a monarch since 1603, when James VI of Scotland succeeded Elizabeth I as James I of England by virtue of being the great grandson of Henry VIII’s sister, Margaret, who had married James IV of Scotland, but they remained only loosely linked politically.

    The Scots had invested a sizeable percentage of their capital in the Darien Scheme, an attempt to establish themselves as a powerful trading nation by founding a colony on the Isthmus of Panama.  The venture failed disastrously and, as a result, it was easy to pressure the bankrupt aristocracy into agreeing to a full, formal union.

    England already claimed sovereignty over Wales and Ireland, but that is another story, and neither had been unified kingdoms in quite the same sense as Scotland.

    The EU developed, through various treaties, from the EEC, aka the Common Market, which Britain joined in 1973.*


    *  The electorate were given the opportunity to vote on this in a referendum in 1975, and voted to stay by a conclusive margin.


    Anonymous @


    apologies I actually meant in the EU! The UK I knew -but I appreciate the lesson insofar as you are very very good at putting Fun Facts in to the sort of expression and tense that young Son enjoys. His knowledge of the UK -and what that actually entails is only governed by The Laws of Soccer!

    But I appreciate you mentioning the EU -I didn’t know the exact year. Thank you from us both -I was on a bit of a sweary ramble enticed to such by rellies who are pro-Leave.

    And they got it.

    And all the problems it may bring.

    Mudlark @mudlark


    I actually meant in the EU!

    I suspected as much, which is why I added the bit about the EU.  The fact that your question specified England rather than Britain left it a bit ambiguous though.

    When the EEC was established originally, in 1958, the UK government opted not to join France, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg.  Subsequent governments in the 60s decided that this had been a mistake, but their applications to join were blocked, chiefly by General de Gaulle, who famously decreed ‘Non’ (he wasn’t very fond of the British).

    For the record, I voted Remain, for the reasons specified by @pedant  and because many of the EU regulations which the Eurosceptics have been bitching about concern – in no particular order – human rights, environmental safeguards, food safety, employees rights and safety in the workplace

    Mersey @mersey

    I think it’s the historical justice that Poland joined the UE. Poland was heavily affected by the WWII. We had the treatises with France and Britain in 1939 and it didn’t help us much. We fought for freedom together with GB against Germany and we ended up on the other side of the Iron Curtain. We didn’t deserve that. And if some English people don’t like poor immigrants from eastern Europe they should think why eastern countries are so poor and why these people seek a better life. The majority of them work honestly and pay their taxes. All these things against immigrants which were said in the campaign are so disappointing.

    And I’m completely disappointed with the result of the referendum. Although I support Scotland’s rights to be independent country I was rather against that choice in 2014 mainly because of russian annexation of Crimea. I thought that Europe has to remain strong and united. But as GB wants to leave EU it’s not the case any more. This will affect all of us. I hope we’ll stay united in EU.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    I think what we’ve just had in the UK is the biggest protest vote of the modern era – possibly the biggest protest vote ever in the UK, because the raw numbers and the percentage vote were both bigger than for the Clement Attlee Labour government that brought in our post-war NHS/education/social reforms.

    I think most of the Leave voters were shocked to find themselves the majority. Yes, immigration was the ‘hot-button’ UK wide issue; but for many that ‘hot-button’ spoke to issues of finding themselves in a system that they don’t really understand or feel they have control over, and wanting to return to a system that they do understand and do have at least some control over.

    I also think that the Indyref was an expression of exactly the same problems – except in this case, the ‘hot-button’ issue was that the majority party in Scotland often isn’t the majority party in the whole UK and the ‘distant government’ was in Westminster rather than in Brussels (and Strasbourg).

    I’ve been following politics since I was a child and I would say that when things get to that point, there is no rational, sensible, economic argument that will work. People will vote for change and damn the economic hit. Scotland didn’t have a majority – but the UK did.

    I don’t know the way forward. Possibly it’s for the UK to copy the PR style system for Holyrood elections, where there are both constituency MSPs and a party list, with further MSPs from the list being elected on a proportional representation basis. Because we’ve just had a huge number of normally very disengaged people voting in both the recent referendums. We have to find some way of giving them a voice; one that doesn’t involve handing them a Big Red Button each time.

    Anonymous @


    and it’s for this reason that a few economists, politicians and sociologists argue a referendum is anti-democracy.


    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    They do, yes. But how else do you make major constitutional changes? And if a referendum is so ‘anti-democracy’, why do so many democracies use them far more frequently than we do?

    One of the things we’ve just found out is that we’re a very divided country. One of the other things we’ve just found out is that our system – which is one of electing locally based MPs – isn’t working. The whole point of the ‘local MP’ system is that such MPs are supposed to keep abreast of opinion in their area, and then bring that opinion back to Parliament, so that Parliament knows what’s going on.

    Parliament should have known there was such a big desire for change; Parliament should have been able to head this off – for one thing, if David Cameron had realised he might genuinely lose this Referendum, he might have been able to persuade the EU negotiators of that. Alternatively, they might have been able to ease austerity in areas that were getting a lot of migration; places like Boston voted heavily for Out.

    But the system of ‘know your constituency’ very obviously isn’t working, because there’s a massive difference of opinion between the major cities and the rest. It’s actually very similar result to the one in Scotland – except there, it was Glasgow and Dundee who were largely for Independence. And in a similar way to this Referendum, people were quite honestly and genuinely telling me that most of the people they knew were for Independence. Here, people were quite honestly and genuinely telling me that everyone was for Remain.

    The problem for the Indyref, it turned out, was that they didn’t know many people outside Glasgow. 🙂 In this Referendum, I’d say that the problem was that they didn’t know many people outside London. Including the very people whose job it is to know people outside London – those locally elected MPs. There were stories of Labour front-benchers busily doorstopping – and being told by household after household ‘F**k off, I’m voting Out.’

    Well, they damn well should have known that was the case before the vote. Why didn’t they?

    Anonymous @


    they damn well should have known that was the case before the vote. Why didn’t they?

    The MPs weren’t doing their job, the people lacked the incentive to make known their opinions or democracy isn’t doing its job.

    Sounds simplistic? I suppose it is.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    I’d go for ‘not doing their job’, personally. Living mainly in London rather than in their constituencies – which in a country as geographically tiny as the UK, is really difficult to justify. Yes, they have to be in London while Parliament is sitting, but there’s no reason for the ‘just drop in for surgeries’ attitude too many MPs have.

    The BBC’s linked to an interesting article.

    lisa @lisa


    Love the conspiracy theories about  River and Clara and ravens and what not!  Like you I also

    always felt River was Tasha.  Sorry about your online bank incident too. Can I ask which bank was it?

    @puroandson                @bluesqueakpip       @mersey       @mudlark            @whisht

    My sincere condolences to all of you on the outcome of the vote!   I have  friends that are extremely

    special to me that live in the midlands between Derby and Leicester.  Their families go back many

    generations with ancestors from Lincolnshire and Yorkshire.  Some were in trades others

    farmers and still are.  I knew they were  ALL  going to vote for the Brexit.  Their  reasoning ?

    Definitely  a reactionary backlash against the austerity and cuts to services as much as any

    immigration issue.   Your assessment around the government being out of touch is spot on.

    Of course  this is also  here in the States too. Mostly the red states. Kansas and Michigan are

    examples of what sever austerity has been  doing.  I’m hoping that when we go to the polls that

    ultimately the majority will not end up voting against their own interests (meaning for the republicans)

    But also,  I hope that the EU will realize that they also need to evolve a bit too.  Otherwise that

    domino effect that is feared will surely become a reality.

    I still think the fact that the EU is broke might give the UK a powerful negotiating tool to possibly

    avoid a complete exit.  They will suffer as much as you will if you go forward with a divorce.

    The timing of this is horrible for them.

    But that could be just a pipe dream – who knows.



    ichabod @ichabod

    @kharis  I’ve always been completely at sea with regard to the damn cracks and have just gone with it without figuring it out; Tasha Lem is a blank to me — Star Trek?  Star Wars?  Battleship Galactica? Babylon 5? —  So I can’t comment on your theory — sounds like a fun one to play with, though.

    I hope the FBI comes through for you.  I just closed an old online account, and I don’t bank online — too shy of all that exposure, although of course actually limiting your internet exposure to possible fraud is pretty much impossible these days.  I keep thinking that all those genius hackers shown working for the cops, CSI, Superheroes, and vigilante groups of the Righteous would be working for the bad guys instead, in the real world; the pay is better.

    As for Brexit — wow, what a horrible mess!  I suppose “independence” does sound so good to worried people constantly being urged to view all their troubles as coming from outside their societies that they don’t read the fine print, let alone the exposure of the deliberate, manipulative lies involved.  And it *is* often partly a matter of the increasing distances between rural experience and ideals and urban experience and ideals dividing populations.  This fracture has been accelerating since at least the early 1900’s in America, but an increased pace of change more recently has been making it much more of a problem here (Jefferson’s idea of a democratic America was a nation of small farmers, remember, with larger landholders running things — cities on the modern scale of size and wealth weren’t foreseen, as far as I know).

    And with the many-faceted and deeply daunting environmental crises of crises already upon is, I think most people are desperate for the (illusory) security of the “old ways”, the “tried and true”, all that stuff — that created the crises in the first place, but you just close your eyes and refuse to admit that because it’s just too damn scary.

    None of which really helps; this chaotic devolution (as I see it) is here now, and I don’t think it’s going away any time soon.

    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @puroandson– Hello!! Good to see you again. Yes, been out of the world for a while. Been busy and not much happening in the Whoniverse so enthusiasm definitely on the wane. Not really giving a stuff about Class at the moment but perhaps that will change when it arrives.


    It’s actually very similar result to the one in Scotland – except there, it was Glasgow and Dundee who were largely for Independence

    With the best will in the world, Pip, I’m not sure that analogy doesn’t really hold up. The EU vote was definitely a popular vote against perceived elites (and one which I personally think is going to bite them in the long run). But I don’t think the big Yes votes in Dundee and Glasgow can be put down to just some kind of popular revolt — although, yes, they are poorer areas but prior to 2014 they were also traditionally among the stronger Unionist areas too. So, there is an element of that but I think the establishment of a Scottish Parliament, the rise of the SNP and the implosion of a corrupt and venal Scottish Labour Party made the situation far more complex and indeed continues to do so.

    But for me the best thing to come out of this mess is that it’s put a second independence referendum clearly back on the cards.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    But for me the best thing to come out of this mess is that it’s put a second independence referendum clearly back on the cards.

    Yes, it has. Much as I hope Scotland will choose to stay in the UK once things have calmed down, the situation has changed so completely that I’d say it’s constitutionally impossible not to hold a second Indyref.

    It’s also changed my mind completely on proportional representation. Wednesday, I’d have said the English/Welsh don’t want it (see previous referenda). But by yesterday I was thinking that if people feel so disenfranchised they need to press a Big Red Button to get Westminster to pay attention – maybe we do need a Holyrood style List system. So they can feel their vote counts and they will have representation in every election.

    I suspect Scottish Independence is part of a wider revolt simply because it fits in all the ‘revolt against the established order’ movements. Occupy, Trumpism, Brexit, Scottish Independence – they’re all part of a growing feeling that the status quo is simply not working for most people.

    Whisht @whisht

    Well, I’m working through my 5 stages of grief on the vote, but on re-reading one of my posts I thought I sounded a tad holier-than-though.

    So, in case its unclear, although I like to think of myself as neither homophobic, sexist or racist, I do have a bigotry towards ‘posh’ people.

    If I hear a posh accent I’ll instantly assume “idiot” and “he/she hasn’t a clue” before reining back in the monster and thinking ‘no no, what did they actually say…’

    Its bigotry, as its a dumb assumption about other people based on a single part of them (accent, colour, gender etc).

    And usually wrong, although that hasn’t yet upset my confirmation bias enough to stop it happening.
    Its bigotry or an -ism (I don’t actually care about the specifics of my intolerance) but its something I’m not proud of and hopefully I self-correct each day.

    Nothing amusing in this post, but hopefully that (as well as my intolerance) will change.

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @whisht    I’m of the opinion that it’s our intentions that make all the difference. I don’t think we can ever entirely escape our cultural history, our upbringing, our generation, whatever it is that governs how we respond to things and people. Sometimes, it’s enough to understand that our instant assumptions aren’t always justified (while sometimes, of course, they are). I’ve talked with my son many times about the fact that he has grown up in a world (both globally and locally) that is unimaginably different than the one in which I grew up. In mine, Vancouver was a mid-sized city with an insular, small-town feel to it, mostly white with a smallish group of “other”, mostly second and third generation Chinese families whose kids all spoke flawless English and interacted basically like the rest of us, except that they fascinatingly spoke Cantonese at home.

    This is nothing like the world my son inhabits. At his high school, white kids are outnumbered by non-whites, many of his classmates aren’t yet fluent in English, and most of them take family trips every summer to China, or the Philippines, or Korea, or wherever. He has some white friends, but more are Chinese or Filipino, or of mixed descent. They all joke quite freely and good-naturedly about their own and each others’ cultures. They eat sushi, pho, and burgers with equal readiness.

    His assumptions about people are far more likely than mine to be based on things he has actually experienced in his society, and I think he makes fewer assumptions than I do. I catch myself all the time having those thoughts that you describe, and I’m usually aware enough to “self-correct” as you say. I firmly believe that good intentions count, as long as we remember to act on them as well as have them. My son and I had a long post-Brexit chat the other evening, and we talked about the importance of all the small choices we make every day, and how they all add up to changing the world for either good or bad, hopefully moving things incrementally in the direction we’d want to see them go. Easier said than done, many days! But you try because you have to, right?    🙂

    Arbutus @arbutus

    Oh, dear, that was long-winded. Oops. Well, it is a pub, hopefully philosophers are welcome if they buy a round!

    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord


    I’d say it’s constitutionally impossible not to hold a second Indyref.

    I’d like to think so but I’m not convinced. I suspect that PM Boris might try to dig his heels in and try anything to avoid giving Scotland another referendum and we may be looking at a situation not unlike Spain and Catalonia for a few years. On the other hand, it’s hard to see how you can rise to power on a ticket of demanding the voice of the people be heard, taking back countries etc and then deny that to another.

    I suspect Scottish Independence is part of a wider revolt simply because it fits in all the ‘revolt against the established order’ movements. Occupy, Trumpism, Brexit, Scottish Independence – they’re all part of a growing feeling that the status quo is simply not working for most people.

    Yes, I think you’re right (although Scottish independence has been brewing for 30-odd years now. It’s hardly just come out of the blue). And despite its unashamed neo-Marxist take, I think Paul Mason made some good points in Post-Capitalism. The fault lines are starting to show in the very infrastructure of capitalism, due to many factors, including the decline of industry, the rise of the internet, globalisation, the decline of traditional political power blocs and so on. The traditional Right vs Left, Bosses vs Workers, Toffs vs Proles binary oppositions no longer work because British society just isn’t ordered along those lines any longer. And, of course, the last ones to get the message are the political classes, largely because they’re the ones with the greatest vested interest in staving off this change for as long as possible.

    But I suspect the fundamental changes in the way we are living our lives now is going to require a fundamentally different politics. I just have no idea what that is going to involve. I suspect no one does yet.

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