The Fox Inn

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This topic contains 1,046 replies, has 44 voices, and was last updated by  Craig 7 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #52557
    Missy @missy

    @stitchintime “Any suggestions?”
    If you are keen, perhaps you could find an editor? Also re: Audio books, I get the main library up on the computer, look at their lists and request the ones I fancy. have you tried that?

    By the way, what sort of writing do you do?

    It’s a Romantic fantassy, all out of my head which requires no research.

    @ichabod.
    You are right up to a point. Long ago I had a ‘bucket list’ as they are called, and having a stab at writing a novel was in it. Fun to begin with, but after a while it becomes a chore. I am lucky enough to have an Editor and she too suggested that every so often I forget about it, then come back refreshed – which I did this morning and finally finished the 4th draft. Like you, I also work things out in my head.

    @theconsultingdoctor Creative writing classes are really helpful, as are Workshops.

    @miapatrick

    I use something which sounds like your vapes, “Nicorettes.’ You get the nictotine and breathe in menthal.

    Apologies if I’ve not answered someone, but there are so many posts, which would mean my taking up the whole page!

    Ttfn

    Missy

    #52561
    Anonymous @

    @pedant @stitchintime @janetteb

    Microsoft doesn’t think.

    Just now, they tried to update to Windows 10 without my permission.  I hate that. And in the middle of a post!  How dare they! Still, my fault, I wasn’t reading the task bar.

    Problem is, it’s a computer and most people see it as an edgy type writer -thus losing stuff becomes the major hiccup.

    Storing back ups outside the home is the best way to avoid heartbreak. That and the 5 level paranoia which ensures you don’t lose anything at all. Even two backups aren’t always the way to go -it’s easier on a Mac from experience. The thing with Microsoft back ups which involve dragging the item to another backup position is you generally miss the 7 -10 things which are ‘spaced’ all round the Library or Home. So you lose out anyway.

    Time Machine is the best as @pedant mentioned. If’ it’s built into the Operating System you’re safer.

    @arbutus

    Yep, I know about grass, fake turf and dirt. 🙂  Totally with you on those little nubby things which end up stuck in socks too. Not good is it?

    I also have a vacuum in the mudroom/shoe cupboard. It’s possible to purchase those little vacuum mice for $300 here. They do corners (seriously, it’s round but “they do corners”) and are always on the move. It might be a good option?

    They work best on tiles and polished floors and I was considering one. Silly me: never happen; other than a new fridge I don’t want more appliances I have to put away, fix up, find a space for etc. Since chucking 10 boxes of old paper work I feel lighter! Funny how one builds up so much work; priceless really, and how, within a second, it can be chucked away like so much dirt and rubbish. Ah, nostalgia.

    <<-_->>

    PuroSolo

    #52562
    Anonymous @

    @pedant

    oh yeah, you’re right -that’s what I was getting at above -people assume something’s trashed and hashed when it’s still around  and hiding in Library/Home etc. It can be pieced back together in quick time.

    #52563
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @missy- the Nicorette inhaler things work for some- but I take it it hasn’t stopped you from wanting to smoke? A vape feels a lot more like smoking. I actually enjoyed smoking, and with a, e-cigarette, you still inhale and exhale a cloud, only a cloud of something that doesn’t linger, and smells a lot nicer, vapour rather than smoke. I think they work because a part of smoking addiction is with the act of smoking, as well as the nicotine. Plus the Nicorette things are almost as expensive as cigarettes, e-cigarette liquids are much cheaper. To be honest, the reason I made the switch was because my boyfriend, in his idiocy one night switched my shot of Sambuca with a shot of his oramorph (morphine sulfate). I felt so sick the next day- I think I might be allergic to opiates- I couldn’t face smoking a cigarette, and I had bought an e-cigarette to try the night before. I don’t recommend that as a method though. And nowadays my boyfriend’s medications are kept in a cupboard he can’t reach because of his shoulder problems.

    @pedant- I actually quite like Windows 10. At least it’s banished the apps screen out of my sight. I prefer it to windows 7 and 8. The time I was uploading it was the most terrifying hour of my life. The computer kept talking me through out it, I think it was supposed to be reassuring, but it was just creeping me out and reminding me that things could go horribly, horribly wrong.

    #52564
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @Arbutus- I’d love to get one of those little hoover-droids. But mostly to wind up the dogs. They’d probably kill it. When we had carpets and nine dogs, I was forever vacuuming. We switched the Vinyl flooring, I don’t think I could go back to carpets. Sounds like you have quite a sporty family?

    Everyone re-backups. I have an external hard drive somewhere, and my laptop has a onedrive thing. I never use them I’m afraid. I do print out every finished draft (to work on on paper and then re-type.) I email a lot of work to people for advice, and post them on closed forums for feedback. I have in the past lost a lot of work. One through the laptop being stolen, one through burning out, one I physically still have it, but the lid of the laptop is broken. I only really use my laptop as a word processer or to access the internet.

    #52565
    Anonymous @

    @puroandson “You’re prickly, aren’t you?”

    Not especially, no.

    @puroandson “You claim I’ve been lucky.”

    You have.

    @puroandson “I’ve been smart.”

    So what, so have I.

    @puroandson “I use a good laptop.”

    So do I.

    @puroandson “And as for “knowing people” -I used to work with those same people you speak of.” At Defence. Their problems were minimal because they had to be.”

    That’s absurd. You don’t know the people I know. I don’t know the people you know. It’s a completely different situation and the average person does not have access to such resources. Now we really are getting into the realm of science fiction.

    @puroandson “not knowing what you’re doing”

    I know exactly what I am doing, thank you, but no matter what you do, stuff happens.

    @puroandson “Not impossible to have an almost risk free computer.”

    “Almost risk free,” YES! 🙂 On that we can agree, but totally risk free, no.

    @puroandson
    “$500 and you’re in the clear.”

    Unfortunately, I don’t have a single dollar to spare and have to make do. Luckily my hard drives are tiny by today’s standards and the amount of data I have similarly so; thus I can actually make do with CDs, for the most part.

    @IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan
    “To not take proper backups because they might fail”

    Who says I don’t? But backups fail too.

    @IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan “As ever, there are theories of what might be lost and there is evidence of what actually is.”

    And what actually is, is that failures and data loss happen no matter what you do. The fact it hasn’t happened to you yet doesn’t mean it won’t.

    @arbutus “My husband has worked in IT for years and has often quoted that line about the two kinds of hard drives. He has set up various servers in our house over the years where we store different types of backups, and is a big advocate of backups to multiple places, as @janetteb suggests. The tech is great nowadays, small devices that hold huge amounts of stuff. As a result, I am about as confident as I can be that I will probably never lose anything too critical. And I tend to be conservative about new tech, I’m not an early adopter of just about anything!”

    Ah, some sanity at last! Now you’re talking.

    @puroandson
    “Storing back ups outside the home is the best way to avoid heartbreak.”

    Wherever you store them, they can fail or be incompatible with your replacement O/S and replacement software. And as for Macs, well, if you can afford one, and if you are able to convert all your documents to the new format, when your software, by necessity, is as old as mine.

    @miapatrick
    Like everyone, I would advise you to do those backups. This did save me last year when my computer crashed as I had lots of old ones and all my crucial stuff was saved, at any rate. There are some things I really wish I had printed out though, because my printer does not work properly with the new O/S, which means the formatting in the documents is totally messed up, which means apart from reformatting hundreds of documents, I have to resort to getting the old O/S back, which is not going to be easy.

    #52566
    Anonymous @

    @missy “If you are keen, perhaps you could find an editor?”

    Maybe so, someday, if I have the funds or make the right connections.

    @missy “Also re: Audio books, I get the main library up on the computer, look at their lists and request the ones I fancy. have you tried that?”

    I have tried that, but for various technical reasons it has not worked very well; so I just gave up and now I just grab whatever is on the shelf that strikes my fancy. Oddly enough that is what I have always done, for the most part, just wandered through the shelves, waiting for a book to call to me, figuratively speaking, as they always have seemed to do. I find it hard to choose actually, as so much interests me. In fact, I often find myself in the position of the proverbial kid in the candy store.

    @missy “It’s a Romantic fantassy, all out of my head which requires no research.”

    That sounds interesting. You’ve just reminded me that the one time I had the opportunity to have an editor look at my mega-work (gratis, during a creative writing course years ago) he had trouble classifying it. He said the best term he could think of was something like a fantasy thriller, although it also now has science fiction and who-done-it elements, plus romance in it too. It all depends on what I decide to include/exclude, I suppose.

    #52567

    @stitchintime

     they can fail or be incompatible with your replacement O/S and replacement software.

    That’s just a management problem.

    And as for Macs, well, if you can afford one, and if you are able to convert all your documents to the new format, when your software, by necessity, is as old as mine.

    a) 1995 called and wants its argument back, and b) Microsoft Office uses different file formats on different platforms? (No). JPEGS are different from one platform to the nest? (No). etc etc

    data I have similarly so; thus I can actually make do with CDs,

    Just about the worst backup medium out there.

    And what actually is, is that failures and data loss happen no matter what you do. The fact it hasn’t happened to you yet doesn’t mean it won’t.

    As I said, it is possible a giant flaming meteorite might hit Earth. Or simply for something to happen to raise the store cupboard to 451F, the temperature at which paper ignites. Or it could just be a run-of-the-mill household fire. Do you keep you paper in a fire vault? If you don’t your entire argument falls.

    Your entire understanding of computing appears to be 15 years out of date and of risk, and its management, appears not of this or any recent century.

    #52568

    @stitchintime

    Oh, and if you have finished work you need an agent (who may also edit, or will know an editor). Agents are the principal gatekeepers in publishing.

    #52569
    Anonymous @

    @stitchintime

    I take great umbrage in your utter rudeness -suggesting I am not sane and referring to @arbutus who is:

    Ah, some sanity at last! Now you’re talking

    Frankly, I know arbutus is sane -she’s a great friend of mine but your previous comments to me have been hostile, and nasty. Yes, I worked at Defence. Yes, that means I have assistance but most of the people I know haven’t lost a single file in 10 years: and it is very much about OS, about management issues and about the user -who is human and who causes the failure.

    Leaving that aside I began by defending you to someone who called you “an expert” but in a belittling fashion. You, on the other hand have criticised virtually everything I’ve said -whether it be computers (about which you know nothing by the sounds of it), home help and organisation -including lists and if we keep ‘talking,’ probably everything else.

    Repeatedly typing my name (and be aware you’re talking to a hybrid -who is 14 years old as well as myself) is a bit vicious.

    I think @pedant is on the money with you – you’re out of date, out of time and I’m finished with you. Please behave. This isn’t youtube. Here we are polite and friendly in tone. The reason I spoke about “no, dude, I’m just smart” is because you had been hostile already and more than once. You seem to have attitude of superiority of tone where you feel you can walk over Forum members.

    Please check the home page for ad hominem attacks: you have demonstrated such continually and I have simply responded in kind -however, for the first few comments, I was polite and respectful. I have no idea why you’ve chosen me and @pedant as part of your anger management course. But it isn’t working.

    Puro and Son (we both agree).

    #52570
    Anonymous @

    @stitchintime

    Please understand that my annoyance came from your overbearing response by repeatedly typing my name and then being insulting.

    You insist that my crashes haven’t happened yet?  I insist that putting money into the saving data procedure is essential. But you then claim you don’t have a dollar to spend on such things. Unfortunately what you’re suggesting is that all your “work and writing” isn’t worth a small amount of money to save it.

    But if you feel that way inclined, then lose it you will. If you believe I will lose all my work someday -then yes, maybe I will. Perhaps I’ll be hit by a bus, or die tomorrow -using your argument, anything could happen and I just don’t feel that’s the way we need to approach data saving discussions. 🙂

    I apologise if you have felt angered by my response to you. Right from the beginning at post number 52440 I felt you were unnecessarily biting and officious.

    I could have decided at that point to simply avoid your posts in the future realising that, for whatever reason, we are entirely different people who approach Socratic arguments differently.

    As for “defence being a ridiculous argument” -it is not. Not at all. People in these arenas don’t lose their work and they are very happy to share their saving procedures with the public -in fact, in Australia, they do.

    As I re-read your post, your comments about sanity, me being “ridiculous” and foolish are quite hurtful and totally unnecessary here. This really is a small, friendly place where gentility is the first and last resort. However, I can see that I also overstepped the mark we have set ourselves. I’m woman enough to admit to that, step back, and apologise.

    Kindest,

    Puro and Son

    #52571
    Missy @missy

    @miapatrick

    You are right. they don’t hold me back *grins* and are very expensive. In fact dearer than actual fags!
    I shall most certainly have a lookaround and find these shps.
    Thank you again, much appreciated. As @pedant mentiond, an agent is good to have as well, they do all the work of finding the appropriate publisher.

    Everyone. I’ve got W8, scared the hell out of me to begin with, but now i love it. As I’m paranoid, I also have AVG maintaintance, AVG Virus protection and Antimalware. Twice they have warned me of a trojan virus and removed it. Not much else one can do.

    ttfn

    Missy

    #52572
    janetteB @janetteb

    @pedant. Agents are indeed the gatekeepers to publishing but right now they appear to have those gates well and truely closed to new writers. I approached every listed agent in Australia a few years back and did not get a single response. I resorted to self publishing on Amazon, (I know, a total sell out) which of course means one’s work is totally lost. However I have had some positive feedback of late and have an editor, He works for board. (my eldest scored the job after picking up a spelling error in the acknowledgement and as he is currently unemployed I thought it would be “good for him” as well as for me.) In the end though I have decided that I write because for me is is as essential as breathing and if nothing ever comes of it I won’t have wasted my life doing it. It still beats housework.

    Cheers

    Janette

     

    #52573
    Anonymous @

    @janetteb

    That must be very overwhelming and depressing. Is publishing on Amazon a sell out, though? If it makes you happy and people can read your work then that’s excellent. But I also understand that being published the traditional way is a great feeling. I’ve only done a couple of texts and these with at least 4 other people -so it didn’t feel like publishing at all. But it wasn’t really satisfying to the soul, at all. Hum drum, I called it.

    Perhaps if it was something really personal -as you have to offer, that would be different. Giving your son that job is good for him too.

    And I agree -like playing piano or conducting, it’s in the blood: you write because you must. I think many authors have stated this -from Marilyn French to Antonia Byatt to Geraldine Brooks (great interview with the latter about 5 months ago or so).

    I don’t know how you find the time, though, with home duties, a family and so on….mind you, as I’ve said before I quite like cleaning and tidying up. My home is my life these days and I enjoy the passage of time within its walls.

    Time is a series of little laminations -like small poems and I’m very aware of their fading, curling edges. I do spend a lot of time looking at the light from the curtains, or the way the blossoms outside match the colours of the light lime coloured cushions. Years ago, I finished polishing a piano stool and then embroidering on the seat a fine pattern of branches and roses. I look at it often.

    Kindest,

    PuroSolo

    #52574

    @janetteb

    Indeed. If you knew how many unsolicited MSs were sat in publishers offices you would weep. And agent and a huge amount to networking are essential these days.

    Worth noting that self-publishing is becoming increasingly respectable these days.

    #52591
    Missy @missy

    Rather expensive too I’m told.

    Ttfn

    Missy

    #52594
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @missy

    Self publishing used to be very expensive; one of the reasons it’s now so popular is that it’s possible to self-publish electronically quite cheaply. Basically, you need to find someone competent to do a decent cover design, and someone used to editing books. I suspect a number of self-publishers don’t even bother with that much. 😉

    Amazon even have a page set up explaining the basic how-to.

    Most of the self-publishers seem to mainly sell electronically, possibly with a print-on-demand option.

    #52595
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip

    you see, this really horrifies me. I understand,  how, occasionally, when in the ICU, some half intelligent email arrives on ipad connecting me with a “great new book;  the first of a quartet for only $2.95!!!”

    I buy it and it’s…..terrible. Absolute goddamn shite. Rambling exposition, rambling dialogue, horrendously long; incredibly boring plots, vast cities with glossaries and maps. Should I actually finish the thing (thank heavens I’m a quick reader) it ends on a cliff hanger.

    Some Amazon bot asks me “how many stars would you give for I. For Idiot” and I don’t even ‘review’ it -it’s just SO bad.

    Maybe some are terrific. Many of the well known authors (and no doubt new ones also) are possibly  great – but I can rarely find them!

    Grrrr

    🙂

    So, to those interested in self publishing and are good at what they do -I’d applaud you and I’d read your output.

    #52598
    Missy @missy

    @bluesqueakpip

    That’s good, much more encouraging for potential authors. I doub’t if I’ll attempt it though, all I wanted to do was to prove I could write a novel – and I have. Not to say that it’s any good, but I had a go.

    ttfn

    Missy

    #52602
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @pedant, @puroandson, @bluesqueakpip, @missy-

    The tutor that was sent to me when I got my Disabled Student Allowance through the OU lent me the book he had self published with a friend through amazon. What got me was that it clearly wasn’t finished. When I pointed out that it was in the form of a novel but wasn’t really a novel- there was some kind of story there but there certainly wasn’t a plot, a series of things happened to the protagonist but nothing was really followed through, he agreed and said that, on reflection, as it was supposed to be a kind of self help manual drawing on Alice in Wonderland (not that Alice featured beyond the chapter headings much) making it a series of isolated chapters/stories would work better. He said he talked to his friend and they decided that in fact they didn’t really want to be writing a novel exactly. I just found it really strange that it was published when it was still in such an early stage of development. And when I pointed out that he had footnotes coming up in the middle of the page rather than separate at, well, the foot of the page, he brushed that objection aside. Bloody hippies…

    (He also didn’t understand my insistence that in the short stories I was writing, my fictional world should have to follow the rules of the real physical universe, and didn’t understand why I refused to put ‘beautiful’ into a physical description of a Greek vase I had to write. Really more of a life coach kind of man than a tutor. Lovely bloke, though. I ended up leaving him to chat to my boyfriend about Ukuleles for the hour a week. But I digress.)

    My point, I think, is that editors indeed should remain a part of the publishing process, even if publishers themselves become less important. The whole concept of a publisher came up, I think, with the printing press, but also the idea that someone is investing in your work, rather than someone very wealthy putting out a book. I think the difference with self publishing is that there is no one else with a stake in your work- if you just hire an editor,  they get paid regardless. That said, a lot of successful writers end up with less and less editorial help, and this sometimes shows. I don’t know if a writer is ever the best judge of their work. It can look boring or trite because it’s so familiar to you, it can be utterly confusing to other readers for the same reason.

    #52603

    @miapatrick

    Yup -absolutely. Nothing great in publishing was ever achieved without the input of an editor.

    #52609
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @miapatrick     That is a very funny story, and it makes a good point. And the moral is that most personal differences can be resolved by bringing in the ukuleles?  🙂

    But what you say about professional writers sometimes receiving less and less editorial help rings true. I have noticed the same tendency in films sometimes, when someone produces something successful, and suddenly has carte blanche to do what they want, and the sequels and so on become increasingly overblown because nobody wants to sit them down and say, “Stuff needs to be fixed.” I would absolutely need someone I trusted to read my work before I would ever go down a self-publishing road (which I have considered). My problem isn’t that I find my stories and characters boring; it’s more that I find them endlessly fascinating, but I can’t quite believe that they would appear that way to anyone but me (although I guess this beats the alternative)!  🙂

    Anyway, @janetteb said it for me:   In the end though I have decided that I write because for me is is as essential as breathing and if nothing ever comes of it I won’t have wasted my life doing it. 

    #52614
    Missy @missy

    @miapatrick Quite right. No one can really edit their own work. I found that there were several bits and pieces I’d written, which my Editor said I didn’t need. she called it ‘literary self indulgence’ and she was right. None of them added anything to the plot, but it’s difficult to see that for yourself.
    Another thing, anyone who thinks about getting themselves an Editor is quite brave. Whatever you write, be it novel, novella, essay or poetry. it’s your ‘child’ and you become very protective of it.
    I was fortunate in as much as the woman I asked to be my Editor, did it professionally, albeit Non Fiction, and I got what she called ‘mates rates.’

    @arbutus. I don’t feel that I need to write. I have a friend who has been published and she has this driving need to be published – and why not. As I said, my need was simply to prove I could write a book.

    Ttfn

    Missy

    #52615
    Anonymous @

    @pedant

    having finally completed the dreaded conscription essay Puricle is now comparing two “texts” from a controversial incident: he’s chosen Hillsborough. The first text is your Vague Ramblings and the second the video as part of the Guardian’s report by David Conn.

    So thank you for enlightening us Aussies about the event and the justice finally revealed. This will be presented to his classmates and already some were questioning the Puricle as to the events leading up to it, who Thatcher and Duckenfield were and the meaning of “scousers.” (a word not recognised by Microsoft spellcheck incidentally)

    Puro and Son

     

    #52628
    ichabod @ichabod

    @arbutus et al:  what you say about professional writers sometimes receiving less and less editorial help rings true. I have noticed the same tendency in films sometimes, when someone produces something successful, and suddenly has carte blanche to do what they want, and the sequels and so on become increasingly overblown because nobody wants to sit them down and say, “Stuff needs to be fixed.”

    Yes; you don’t want to alienate your big earners by offering unwelcome criticism, and of course big earnings tend to increase self-confidence and decrease self-criticism in creative people.  There’s another side to it, though, which is more nebulous but just as important: if a writer gets sloppy, self-indulgent, and long-winded over time, *but* her books just keep selling more and more copies (P.D. James, prime example), then no one can say with certainty that the sloppiness, indulgence, and long-windedness is harming their work; in fact, at least some of that may be just what her readers have come to love about her work, and how could you know?  Who cares what the official critics say, and the author’s detractors — no editor wants to inadvertently kill the goose that’s laying increasingly golden eggs!  Seriously — would “50 Shades of S**te” (which began its life as Twilight fan fiction) have sold *more* copies if an editor had intervened to reduce the childish, witless dreck-i-ness of that book?  Probably not; and maybe — and just maybe — *fewer* copies would have sold.

    The competition for readers in an age of rapidly multiplying media formats is truly ferocious, in what often looks like a headlong race of publishers toward the bottom of the barrel.

     

     

    #52630
    ichabod @ichabod

    @missy  No one can really edit their own work.

    Well, you can, — just not alone.  As I see it, everyone who writes more than one draft of a story is editing.  But the judgment of others needs to be brought to bear just you can step outside your own head and look at the work with fresh eyes.  Many writers take this necessary step by asking “Beta-readers”, usually friends and family, to read and comment on a story for them when it’s become too stale to the author’s eyes for clarity.  I don’t know why they’re called “Beta” — it’s a computer thingie by origin, I think.  Maybe because a Beta reader is not your target, but an intermediate whose reaction can help you aim better at your *real* target (Alpha readers?), which is your readership at large, readers in general, or fans, etc.

    Some do this by joining a writing group (local or online), where each member Beta-reads others’ work and critiques it.  I don’t do this myself, because I’m too slow a producer and would only have something to be critiqued maybe once a year or so (and critiquing others when you don’t submit your own work to the same people and process can cause resentment among those who regularly take their slings and arrows every month or more often).  I’ve sent fifth drafts (that is, work that’s fully formed by that point, so I’m not likely to be completely bowled over and re-directed by criticism, unless I ask for that) to friends etc., with detailed instructions to make critical reading *as readers rather than as writers themselves* easier (eg, “x in the margin wherever it feels slow to you, or you voluntarily put it down and go do something else”).

    One other useful tool is to read your work, or some portion of it, aloud, and tape your reading.  After a bit, you may  find that you’re listening and catching problems as the words come out of your mouth, no tape needed.  I’ve found this an excellent way to catch clumsy, ugly, or confusing sentence and story structure, unwitting repetition, and the whole music, pace, and style of the piece, so you can make all of that better.  It’s a last stage for me in polishing an mss. for submission to an agent or editor.  And it’s fun.  I do the voices and everything . . .

     

    #52634
    Missy @missy

    @ichabod

    One other useful tool is to read your work, or some portion of it, aloud, and tape your reading. After a bit, you may find that you’re listening and catching problems as the words come out of your mouth, no tape needed. I’ve found this an excellent way to catch clumsy, ugly, or confusing sentence and story structure, unwitting repetition, and the whole music, pace, and style of the piece, so you can make all of that better. It’s a last stage for me in polishing an mss. for submission to an agent or editor. And it’s fun. I do the voices and everything . . .

    Funny you should say this, my editor told me to do the same thing, except for taping it. It’s astonishing what you can pick up by reading out loud.

    Missy

    #52636
    janetteB @janetteb

    @ichabod That seems like very sound advice to me. I have often felt caught in a catch 22 in regard to professional editors. I can’t afford editing unless I have some certainly of being published and have no chance of being published without editing. I attempt to muddle through, re editing my own work, usually after a break of at least a year. The novel i started writing while at Uni is the one I currently have my son editing. It is older than he is. Putting it up on Amazon basically meant that people (friends that is) could read and critique it which has been very helpful. I am about to take it down and replace it was the newly edited version. I did read one of my novels aloud to my partner some years ago which was useful. I am also “going to” read some of my work aloud and record it for a podcast. (My great grandfather was called “going to”. In our family the words infers intentions rather than actions)

    Cheers

    Janette

    #52638
    Anonymous @

    @pufferfish

    You’re round and about!  Long time no see: hope you are well and trying to enjoy the Doctor “currently away on holiday” hiatus (I think that’s double upped? Hiatus on its own ? not sure.)

    Good to see you swimming with @juniperfish perhaps?

    Thankyou

    Son of Puro.

    #52639
    Anonymous @

    To all:

    I have been reading your discussion about writing with great interest. I am finding it informative and helpful. Thank you. 🙂

    #52650

    No further words needed:

    #52651
    Anonymous @

    @pedant

    Thank you.

    We’ve just watched that generous excerpt.

    Puro and family.

    #52751
    Anonymous @

    @missy

    Ah, miss I’m sure my argument was cogent -just like @mersey and @ichabod‘s ! 🙂

    But thank you -for yours.

    Still, as Ichabod has stated, as a feminist i’ts time to move on and embrace it. I might be a bloke but Im feminist also.  It’s difficult to “not be”  a feminist in this day an age. It’s highly motivating to see what feminists achieve every day for both men and women. Still, women are paid less. Their net worth is less, and they’re still, on those stats and others, a pretty low minority group 🙂

    Not funny at all. And as you say @mersey it’s impt to be objective and to see that the Dr’s gender just isn’t ‘material’ any more. I can’t write like ichibod can about this but I totally see her argument is clever and also well sourced. It’s emotional too and I think, that an issue like feminism, required emotional engagements. It’s good to be passionate about these things: its good to have clever women portraying your favourite character -it’s how we evolve @missy. This argument “it aint broke so don’t fix it” is what you’re saying. But fixing is about moving on, taking that huge first step. I remember mum saying (from another show) that this is how humans work: we stepped out of the cave, made a fire, looked over the hill, walked there, built houses, built boats and went to the moon. It’s part of human achievement. Great ideas come from small changes too.

    It’s funny that we’re here discussing this little show that could, which is about fantasy and sci-fi and yet we expect the main character to stay male because he always has! And this show is about expanding boundaries. We’ve done some of that but not enough!! I say we need to progress.

    Thank you for reading

    Puro’s Son

    Hi there @trump or @barnable -welcome back to you. Mum is doing sorta OK and sort of not? at the mo.

    @bluesqueakpip Mum said hi and thx for your post about Moffat setting “the stage” for a female Doctor. “she will see you know, that lady doctor”. Er gross. My Doc is a woman -all my life, dentists and doctors and teachers, women but I’ve had some great male roll models. 🙂

    #52753
    Mersey @mersey

    @puroandson @missy

    But we have to remember that it’s still entertainment for the masses with really big history and not someone’s manifesto. Maybe we should celebrate both sexes but not by switching them but by creating new strong female characters of their own (The Journey of River Song, the woman whose husband is the Doctor (not the woman who is Doctor’s wife) and steer the Tardis better than he does and cheated him so many times that he shouldn’t be so full of himself) like Xena series which was spin-off Hercules and was a bigger success and made much more bigger impact).

    I don’t think that someone who is against female Doctor cannot be a feminist or has to be a sexist. I’m kind of a feminist but I have very, very ambivalent feelings towards the idea.

     

    #52755
    Anonymous @

    @ichabod @missy @mersey

    Yes, I absolutely agree (we the hybrid) that it’s not a “fix” as such. To use the term is to follow that something’s broken: but then that’s why clichés aren’t my favourite thing. It just doesn’t work here.

    As you stated on the News Thread, Miss I, it is a natural progression not an invitation for a fight or strife: I think I mentioned it was about progression and evolution: it’s the next step is all and with the right person it should be work nicely. The Doctor is Doctor -their gender is not material -not anymore.

    I think it’s good to look at @denvaldron‘s excerpts and reviews from the fan base who have written a female Doctor in and it’s worked really well. Also, it was ages ago!

    I think if a determined fan base agree then let’s move ahead. It certainly can’t hurt and if it does one has to ask why.

    Kindest,

    the Hybrid.

    #52759
    Missy @missy

    I’m going to be haunted by the word ‘fix’ by the sound of it.

    If a thing has worked very well for decades, leave it alone.

    Missy

    #52760
    ichabod @ichabod

    @puroandson   Thanks for kind words, and a salute to your mum while we’re at it.  There’s still plenty of resistance to feminist ideas, though, even among SF readers and writers, who you’d expect to be more flexible in their thinking since social change does seem to be an unavoidable effect of time and we’re supposed to be pushing conjecture into “the future” as each of us sees it.  Even superhero stories have acquired female superheroes these days, as SF literature has been addressing all aspects of human (and alien) cultures, not just war and conquest, for decades now.  But there are lots of readers and viewers who still prefer the older, simpler stories with dependably familiar stock characters, not all complexified with people’s changing values, varying psychological states, and political, religious, and economic convictions (as in real life).

    So there are (unfortunately, IMO) still plenty of people who aren’t just “not feminist” but who are flat-out anti-feminist, for various reasons.  Time, however, seems to be against them, judging by recent polls and studies of generational differences.  I certainly hope so.

    @mersey   like Xena series which was spin-off Hercules and was a bigger success and made much more bigger impact).

    Oh, I didn’t know it was a Hercules spin-off — we started watching a bit late, I think.  Thanks!  I think Xena had that impact because of this surprisingly rapid shift, among younger people at least, to a more open, less judgmental feeling about gender relationships.  That change was already established, going right back to the ill-fated anti-booze crusade of Carrie Nation’s followers, and on to the votes-for-women Suffragettes.  Women could assert themselves as adventurers, political leaders, childless by choice yet more than “spinsters”, visionary artists and scientists, etc. instead of either demure Angels of the Hearth or evil, destructive seductresses with unnatural ambitions.

    Here, I’ll trade you: did you know that Elizabeth I of England signed herself *not* as “Elizabeth Regina” but as “Elizabeth Rex”.  She knew herself to be not some King’s consort or widow, but a King herself — the full, real, deal (there’s a new biography out about her, focused on her later years, about 30 of them, instead of her early dramatic power struggles and possible “romantic” entanglements).  Can’t wait to read it myself!

    I’m ambivalent myself, come to think of it, probably because feminism doesn’t come in just one form, and some varieties of it aren’t for for me.

    Maybe next year, though . . . you never know.  Little story, if I may: I wrote an SF novel about a super-masculinist post-apocalyptic future culture falling apart.  When I had conversations about it with readers and other writers in the SF community, I was surprised to find some people backing away simply because it was too extreme for them — women enslaved outright and down-graded to beasts to be abused at will by the men who owned them in common.  I answered that I had just pushed some current misogynistic ideas as far as I could, to see how far that went (the spark was a news item in The Nation magazine, about a dry-run for evacuating DC bigwigs in case of nuclear attack — only Justice William O. Douglas, among all the upper Admin personnel and Pentagon honchos, refused to flee to a “safe” underground city because he was forbidden to bring his wife — only young female secretaries and staffers were welcome.  I am not making this up, and I will never, ever, forget or forgive.  Ever, in this world or any other).

    But one night I gave a talk about the book to a community college class, meaning that the students (all women) were working class, getting their higher ed in night school; they’d been assigned my book to read.  I prattled on about how I’d extrapolated satirically from the attitudes of the Nixon Administration and its supporters.  Someone put her hand up and said, “But it’s not just a story.  It’s my life.”  Other hands went up; heads nodded.  This was in 1975.

    The person who got educated that night was me.

    Yes, Puro’s son: these are emotion-packed subjects, all right.

     

    #52767
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @missy @puroandson @ichabod @mersey @pedant

    Okay. I’ve stayed out of this because I don’t really understand why we keep coming back to it. I won’t go into my own reasons for being on the fence about the issue, but only wanted to throw this in for what it’s worth.

    As a lover of music, my greatest respect goes to those artists and groups who choose not to rest on their laurels and play it safe, but those who like to change it up, keep things interesting, stretch their boundaries. Sometimes this results in a recording that I don’t enjoy as much as previous ones; sometimes it results in a great big win for me! But even when I am not personally the winner, someone else is. Most importantly, the artists themselves. This is why the “it’s been fine for 50 years so why change it” argument doesn’t hold water for me (even assuming it were true, as @pedant points out).

    I think that if/when the showmakers at whatever point decide to go with a female Doctor, it will not be because of ideology but because there is the prospect of someone great in the role, and why not try something that has been discussed for a long time now? I have no idea whether I’ll like it when they do. If I don’t, I’ll just wait it out for the next incarnation, as lots of people do with a Doctor that isn’t their favourite. Because when you look over the history of the arts, it’s usually been the artists who try out new ideas who get the most traction over the long haul.

    #52768
    Arbutus @arbutus

    Welcome back, @mudlark! I hope the recovery is going well and you will soon be back to digging and so on.  🙂

    #52769
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @ichabod    I think what helped make Xena so successful was that she was so beautifully realized. All these years later, they still don’t get female superheros right, when they try them at all; and back then, I can’t remember if there were any truly kickass women out there (in the mainstream where I lived, anyway). Xena was smart, she was funny, she was gorgeous and sexy, she was loyal, she was conflicted, and she kicked the guys’ butts week in and week out. I wouldn’t need this in every show I watched, but it was fun to get it there. It was great entertainment.

    Who wrote the new Elizabeth bio? I’d love to read that, too!

    #52774
    ichabod @ichabod

    @puroandson  I’ve stayed out of this because I don’t really understand why we keep coming back to it.

    I think a basic reason we keep coming round to this again is that we’re all at a crisis point in our own history, with enormous changes required of us if we’re to survive a massively shifting environment.  There’s also great resistance from people who can’t or won’t accept this, for many different reasons.  Change and survive, or freeze in place and die isn’t just about politics, economics, and “values”.  We feel the conflict everywhere, and it’s scaring the hell out of us to a greater or lesser degree.  “The Singularity”, the panic over Y2K (remember that?), the internet with all its pluses and minuses, we could go on and on with currents of change that we can’t begin to see the shape of yet.

    One venue where humans argue this kind of thing out is in the arts.  Surviving compressed and as yet immeasurable change is an underlying concern, and it surfaces everywhere in times like this.  A majority react by clinging hard to whatever they think they can hold onto; a minority thrive on riding the wave-front as best they can.  You could say that that’s always been true, as all times are times of change; again, compare the relative stability of Ancient Egypt to the galloping chaos and instability/growth of western history since the Industrial Revolution.

    I know that this comment is all hyper-simplification and way over-generalized, but it’s what I think I see (today, anyway).

    #52775
    ichabod @ichabod

    @arbutus  I agree about Xena.  Also the slowly dawning sense (slow for me, anyway) that the relationship of this heroic female figure and her female sidekick was different from, say, the female leads in Cagney & Lacy.  That in itself was fascinating, and refreshing.

    I do wish a show would be done with Lucy Lawless as an older Xena — what happens to a kick-as *anybody* when they’re not young any more?  How do we do this, and do it well, when we can’t seriously kick ass and win every time any more?

     

    #52778
    Anonymous @

    @ichabod
    A majority react by clinging hard to whatever they think they can hold onto; a minority thrive on riding the wave-front as best they can.

    I think it is more a case of those who benefit from the change thrive and those who don’t, don’t.

    As far as Xena is concerned, I don’t mean to rain on your parade, but I rather think that considering the life she was living, she probably didn’t live long enough to get that old. But I could be wrong.

    #52786
    Anonymous @

    @ichabod

    Hi there! Nope, the “I don’t know why we keep coming back to these points” etc wasn’t a comment made by Puricle?

    Certainly he and I see why people do return again and again -it cannot be helped. These are times of mindful discussion. Change is essential and the argument “it aint broke so don’t fix it” is usually said by those not understanding that many things are indeed “broke” or are not in a position (thru education or mere presence of mind) to notice.

    It’s an area of some ambiguity some of the time and clarity the rest of the time. But it never stays the same -and thank god for that.

    PuroSolo

    #52789
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @puroandson   @ichabod      I think that comment was mine, actually. It wasn’t said so much as an objection to mindful discussion, more that the same points do seem to be made over and over. Personally, I’ve accepted that 1) Time Lord gender change is now canon; 2) it is probably only a matter of time until the right set of circumstances gives us a female Doctor; and 3) this will happen regardless of my views on the matter. I’m not altogether sure I want to see this, only for the reason that in my mind, currently at least, the Doctor is pretty irrevocably male. However, I have no reasonable argument against it other than my own disinterest, which is not really an argument. I may or may not like the change, but I may or may not like whatever the Doctor becomes when Capaldi is done. In both situations, I will certainly watch with interest.

    Anyway, that was the thinking behind my saying earlier that I had stayed out of the discussion for the most part, except for my one comment about growth and change being pretty much essential to art, whether or not I personally love the direction it takes.

    #52791
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus

    Of course, yes, and you’re right. I was done too! I think the Puricle wanted to add some of his 10 cents worth but I think even he realises that we simply revolve around the same arguments when we’ve done this already -and in the very recent past 🙂

    I would like a Doctor after a Capaldi. A good one. If the Doctor is a man and a great Doctor then my wish will be fulfilled. (OK, I started to type “if the Dr is a woman…” but then I realised I may confuse people and lose the ‘funny’)

    Enjoy your day @arbutus and you too @ichabod

    x Puro

    #52795
    ichabod @ichabod

    @arbutus   Here’s a link to the review of the book about Elizabeth I in last Sunday’s NYT:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/books/review/elizabeth-the-forgotten-years-by-john-guy.html?_r=0

    #52796
    Anonymous @

    @dentistofdavros

    replying to you on this thread I think, sir. Mum loved the 80s and actually I adore the music. None of my friends like the music. It’s really sad, they don’t know Bon Jovi or Metallica or any punk stuff or Geoge Harrison or The Bangles. Even Freddy Mercury!! How sad. They love rap only -Eminem who is oK, I guess and all the One Direction style singers as well as…Bieber. Blimey bloody Beaver says mum!!

    THz, Puros Son

    thanksyou also to @ichabod for the review of the book too

     

    #52797
    Anonymous @

    Answering you on this thread   – oh that was @thedentistofdavros Should have known – as there’s no squiggly lines now 🙂

    #52798
    TheDentistOfDavros @thedentistofdavros

    @puroandson

    I was referring to 80s Doctor Who mainly and yeah I think the 80s were great as well! Better than bloody beaver anyway!

    May I compliment you on your great knowledge of music, especially for people our age you have very impressive music knowledge, do you happen to play anything?

    I’m not blessed with musical talent myself and possess next to no knowledge on the subject! I was actually quite pleased with myself being able to recognise most of the names you mentioned above!

    Perhaps we should move the conversation again to the music thread now!

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