The Legend of Ruby Sunday

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  • #76320
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @whisht and @scaryb as our resident musos – what is the tune Susan Twist dances to on stage? It’s bugging me as it’s really familiar…

    @bunface @blenkinsopthebrave @thane16

    I wonder if Gatwa Doctor’s frequent tears are because, on some deep level, he recognises that there is a Red Doctor/ Sutekh-possessed Red TARDIS out there in the crossed timelines, hurtling towards the Empire of Death.

    I can’t imagine that a version of the Fourth? Doctor who said “Yes” to Sutekh did so malevolently, but rather as a desperate measure to try and buy more time to control the Osiran, which ended up being a huge mistake, as Sutekh was then able to possess both a Time Lord and a Time Machine.

    @thane16 Thinking about it – the crossing of one reality into another could explain the anomaly between Ruby’s birth/ depositing at the Church on Ruby Road being a supposed “fixed point” in time AND a place where the time-line is being altered. If the Red TARDIS/ Sutekh-controlled TARDIS is entering “our” timestream from an alternative one that could be why a “fixed point” is capable of being tampered with.

     

    #76322
    Pufferfish @pufferfish

    @juniperfish the song is Roam by the B-52s.

    The lyrics should tempt anyone looking for bonkersness:
    <div class=”ujudUb”>I hear a wind<br aria-hidden=”true” />Whistling air<br aria-hidden=”true” />Whispering<br aria-hidden=”true” />In my ear</div>
    <div class=”ujudUb”>Boy Mercury shooting through every degree<br aria-hidden=”true” />Oh girl dancing down those dirty and dusty trails<br aria-hidden=”true” />Take it hip to hip, rocket through the wilderness<br aria-hidden=”true” />Around the world the trip begins with a kiss</div>
    <div class=”ujudUb”>Roam if you want to<br aria-hidden=”true” />Roam around the world<br aria-hidden=”true” />Roam if you want to<br aria-hidden=”true” />Without wings, without wheels<br aria-hidden=”true” />Roam if you want to<br aria-hidden=”true” />Roam around the world<br aria-hidden=”true” />Roam if you want to<br aria-hidden=”true” />Without anything but the love we feel</div>
    <div class=”ujudUb”>Skip the airstrip to the sunset, yeah<br aria-hidden=”true” />Ride the arrow to the target, one<br aria-hidden=”true” />Take it hip to hip, rock it through the wilderness<br aria-hidden=”true” />Around the world the trip begins with a kiss</div>
    <div class=”ujudUb”>Roam if you want to<br aria-hidden=”true” />Roam around the world<br aria-hidden=”true” />Roam if you want to<br aria-hidden=”true” />Without wings, without wheels<br aria-hidden=”true” />Roam if you want to<br aria-hidden=”true” />Roam around the world<br aria-hidden=”true” />Roam if you want to<br aria-hidden=”true” />Without anything but the love we feel</div>
    <div class=”ujudUb”>Fly the great big sky<br aria-hidden=”true” />See the great big sea<br aria-hidden=”true” />Kick through continents<br aria-hidden=”true” />Busting boundaries<br aria-hidden=”true” />Take it hip to hip, rocket through the wilderness<br aria-hidden=”true” />Around the world the trip begins with a kiss</div>
    <div class=”ujudUb”>Roam if you want to<br aria-hidden=”true” />Roam around the world<br aria-hidden=”true” />Roam if you want to<br aria-hidden=”true” />Without wings, without wheels<br aria-hidden=”true” />Roam if you want to<br aria-hidden=”true” />Roam around the world<br aria-hidden=”true” />Roam if you want to<br aria-hidden=”true” />Without anything but the love we feel</div>

    #76323
    Pufferfish @pufferfish

    Oh FFS. Sorry about the format disaster; did not appear that way when pasted.

    #76324
    nerys @nerys

    @pufferfish There are two tabs atop the upper right of the posting window. If you paste text, switch from the default Visual tab to the Text tab. That way you won’t get the formatting code interspersed with your text.

    #76326
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Fun fact: a bit of quick research on Sutekh (god of storms, disorder, violence, etc) reveals he had, among his offspring, one called…Maga.

     

    #76329
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @pufferfish – thanks for the song find!

    Seems like a gloating song from Lord Sutekh – he’s got control of the TARDIS (/alternative Red TARDIS – let’s see) so can presumably spread his dominion of death throughout time and space:

    “Roam if you want to

    Roam around the world

    Roam if you want to

    Without wings, without wheels”

    #76330
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    Hello all. Sorry I’ve been AWOL the past week or so — the continued craziness of this general election has been keeping me from the truly important matters … like this. That said, I didn’t really have much to say about Rogue, except that I loved it a lot. Nice to have another Captain Jack figure in the mix — particularly one this time who is remotely likeable and can actually act.

    The Sutekh reveal was really rather satisfying even if I didn’t find myself massively surprised. Given the mythic turn of this series, it could only have been him really (although as a friend pointed out, Azal would also have worked nicely.) Quite liked the way that RTD worked in the allusions to The Satan Pit, especially with both villains being voiced by Gabriel Woolf. I wonder if he had that in mind all along.

    In general though, a gripping episode although a little bit of an identikit RTD first part of a finale. Quite reminiscent of both Army of Ghosts and End of Time I. And going by that track record, I reckon we’ll see an epic battle and then the sacrifice of a main character being exiled to an unreachable dimension (Ruby presumably). Other predictions, Ruby is going to be her own mother somehow or that hood will drop to reveal Carole Anne Ford (all those Susan references have been too loaded with significance to merely be trolling surely.)

    I shall also feel rather short-changed if we don’t get any bandage-wrapped Servo Robots in the finale.

    #76331
    syzygy @thane16

    @pufferfish @juniperfish and Roam is from the B52s album Cosmic Thing… (also containing the brilliant Love Shack).

    #76334
    syzygy @thane16

    Sutehk’s doghead brings us back to the Beatles singing “My dog he’s alive he’s not dead” in Devil’s chord.

    #76340
    syzygy @thane16

    @mudlark @pufferfish @whohar @bunface and calling those with knowledge of Horus … People have suggested Ruby is part of an altered reality. Has she been placed in different time streams by the Doctor to fight Sutehk?

    And, as others noted, when Kate articulates her chrysalis theory, Ruby arrives at UNIT with her VHS. S Triad is the vessel for evil, 👿 but one can speculate Ruby’s a vessel for good:

    If Ruby’s placed in various time streams, there’s strong symbolism of Ruby as peacemaker & healer across the sky. Horus is seen as restorative, both helper & healer (apologies if ALL of this has been said before!), significantly a helper to the god, Ra -hence Sunday??

    When Ra appeared at dawn he took the form of a falcon known thereafter as Horus of the Horizon. In losing his eye in battle it was magically restored. 😳

    Beyond the theme of magic, though, to what extent has Egyptian mythology been drawn upon this season? Seemingly the dead astronaut in Wild Blue Yonder came from a civilisation with heads shaped like falcons. The No-Things as shapeshifters live through  replication & imitation -much like the Chuldur who are bird-like.

    I wonder, then, how many humans can Sutehk …penetrate or replicate? And if there are 2 Tardis’ there’s a potential for unlimited Tardis’  summoned into being, accidentally or deliberately by memories & timestreams….

    #76341
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @juniperfish

    Thank you for having registered the list of the deities listed in the pantheon – and forgive me if I’m harking back to earlier points of discussion, but after staying up last night long past my bedtime I’ve spent all day playing catch up.

    In ancient Egyptian art Sutekh is depicted as a man with the head of a jackal – the head of a scavenger and follower in the train of apex predators, which says a lot about his nature; and what struck me about his offspring as listed was how ultimately petty they all were.

    The God of games: a potential source of amusement, enjoyment and friendly competition, but here he is a master of manipulation and humiliation

    The trickster: a master of deception and exploiter of the gullible.

    The god of music: potentially a liberating force, life enhancing, a source of joy and inspiration, but Maestro is greedy and acquisitive and wants it all for themself.

    Reprobate, god of spite: resentful and revengeful in small ways.

    Mara, god of beasts: manifesting the debased and destructive qualities with which humans  sometimes and perversely invest animals.

    Malice/mischief/misery: exploiters of the weak and desperate.

    Insensa, god of disaster: bad, but never insuperable.

    So, sorry Sutekh, I’ll back the Doctor and the better nature of humanity against you any day.

    #76342
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @thane16

    The head of the astronaut in Wild Blue Yonder looked somewhat equine to me, and I’ve seen enough excavated horse skeletons to know. So I don’t think we can pursue a hawk/Horus connection that far. But, just to confuse matters, in some Egyptian depictions of Set/Seth/Sutekh, the muzzle of the jackal has a distinctly raptor-beak like look.

    @juniperfish ‘s duplicate red/blue Tardises (red/blue again, huh? 🙂 ) is intriguing, but I’m not entirely convinced. I’ve been thinking more along the lines of a time shift and time overlay, based on my sketch map of the church, churchyard and surroundings as seem in the Church on Ruby Road, and my plotting of where the Tardis, the Doctor and the woman appeared to be at different times on that scene, as compared with the same as seen in the Time Window. In the original scenes where the Doctor rescued baby Ruby, the position of the woman appeared to shift between that when he saw her after first exiting the Tardis, heading south eastward away from him on the road alongside the east/north eastern boundary of the churchyard, and that when saw her after having run to the church, rescued the baby and then run back. It was as if she had walked no further during the interim, or she had somehow made a short time jump backwards. That may have just been a result of foreshortening in the camera view or a glitch in continuity, but in the Time Window she did appear to do exactly that: She walked away from the Doctor and Ruby and then suddenly reappeared walking towards them, seemingly just after leaving the gate to the church yard.

    In the Time Window the position of the Tardis corresponded with it’s position as we first saw it in The Church on Ruby Road on the original Christmas Eve, and they watched the Doctor re-enter it, but then things got muddled. We never saw the Tardis with the Doctor dematerialise, but when the location of the Tardis was next established, shrouded by the cloud of (sand ?) particles, it was 20 m. to the west (Kate L-S said north, but that would have placed it in a field behind the pub)*  So yes, the latter manifestation could have been an evil twin of the Tardis, but I’m still inclined to think that it had been possessed by the spirit of Sutekh, already present on the scene in that original visit – didn’t Maestro imply as much? When they decided to review the scene through the Time Window, the possessed Tardis was also in UNIT HQ, and so was able to reconnect with its earlier self on that scene, and since this coincided with the latent Sutekh in the also possessed Susan Triad, the synergy enabled his embodied re-emergence. I suspect that the woman in the Time Window wasn’t pointing at the Doctor but at the Tardis behind him, and that it was a warning.

    As regards the idea that the Tardis was already possessed before the events in this episode, that seemed to be indicated by the groaning noises it kept making. It certainly happened in Rogue, but does anyone recall if it happened before that? For that matter, why the groaning and not the cloister bell?

    Just another suggestion to the mix.

     

    * When you are plotting a map without any proper surveying equipment or a compass it is always helpful to have a church to provide orientation, at least in western Europe, because the church will always be aligned roughly W-E with the chancel to the East.

    #76343
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @mudlark

    I believe it groaned as they were crossing Abbey Road in 1963.

     

    #76344
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @mudlark – that is just AWESOME work! 🙂

    As @blenkinsopthebrave says the TARDIS also groans in Abbey Road, and I think at least one other time this series (possibly in Space Babies).

    Interesting pick up from Twitter –

    Compare this:

    https://x.com/i/status/1799435940550648085

    and this:

    https://x.com/i/status/1799435940550648085

    (That was posted by a very sharp eared person on 8 June! The same person also says there was a similar noise when the TARDIS landed on Krop Tor in The Impossible Planet (which leads into The Satan Pit… featuring the Beast – also voiced by Gabriel Woolf (so maybe it’s Gabriel the TARDIS has problems with rather that Sutekh, LOL!!))

    #76345
    Krathoon @krathoon

    There seems to be a death storm around Earth in the next episode.

    So, I don’t know if the human race starts dropping like flies or something.

    The Doctor may have to find a reset button.

    #76346
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Oops – sorry – just realised both the links in my last post lead to the same Tweet (but both clips are in the same place).

    Thinking again about the night of Ruby arriving at the church (and thanks everyone for the incredible amount of detail you’ve been coming up with).  I’d forgotten how strongly Maestro reacted to Ruby, and their comment about “how could he be there, then” so yes, I agree that the TARDIS was already infected when it landed at the Church.

    A timey wimey thought – Ruby and Carla have already scanned that VHS tape VERY closely – but they never saw a police box materialise and the Dr come out, or the woman turn and point etc… and yet all of that is now on the video tape – so it’s not just the Doctor’s memories that are changing, that tape has changed since it was first recorded (from a CCTV approx 73 yards from the Church!).

    “time is memory – memories are time…”

    The solution to Sutekh the last time was about time – the 2 minute window for the signal to travel from Mars to Earth, and a time tunnel. So presumably the solution this time will also be something to do with time. It strikes me that there are 2 characters who have been outside the time of this universe – Ruby and old Ruby – when they skipped forward to the 2040s to stop Gwilliam bringing nuclear war. But the earth as we know it hadn’t been destroyed by Sutekh at that point. Soooo – is Ruby’s mum (or the cloaked figure (who may not be her mum) who leaves her at the Church) actually old Ruby? maybe there’s a timey wimey explanation for old Ruby after all?!

    And this holds the key to defeating Sutekh, accessed through UNIT’s time window perhaps? And especially because the Doctor has expressly forbidden it, I do think we’re going back to that supposedly fixed point…

     

    #76347
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @thane16 @mudlarkWild Blue Yonder astronaut was definitely equine inspired.

    I’m also concerned about Cherry – she doesn’t look at all safe with Mrs Flood, but is she just a minor character or is there something more to her that we’ve been distracted from?! (And indeed, what about Mrs F?)

    (Douglas Adams had a lot to say about the power of a cup of tea!)

     

    #76351
    syzygy @thane16

    Yes, the cloaked figure may well be Old Ruby in a timey whimey way @scaryb !

    interesting that in Rogue, Ruby was very nearly trapped & I wonder if this is signalling at least one possible future out of all the time streams or multiverses. Is time collapsing in certain timestreams? Are tiny decisions, the ones we regularly make every day, leading to an overt, disproportionate or changing structure of time as suggested by the loss of the Doctor in 73 Yards.

    @blenkinsopthebrave @bunface @whohar

    As for  Ruby’s carol, deep in her soul, perhaps it acts as a beacon to ensure she returns to this specific moment in time. The audience or director can focus on one of the two time signatures – compound duple (6/8) or simple triple (3/4) as Mr B has explained, or they can switch between the two.

    This is significant as it is similar to how the Doctor remembers two different events or has 2 different memories of Ruby Road. If Ruby fights Sutehk she may have an implanted memory of this Christmas carol in order to locate those she loves in this timestream.

    To amp up the beacon, the carol has a simple ostinato or repeating pattern in pitch and rhythm so that a repetition is like a code or signal continually ringing out, and cast across time like the ripples made from Maestro’s tuning fork.

    The carol in compound duple is also interesting as the two Tardis’ compound the effects of Sutehk & his minions, acting as contagion across all time and space. Is this what happened to Finetime & the home planet where the creatures were set to destroy every living thing..

    Witnessing the Doctor’s anger at himself for the loss of Chidozie is very revealing too, and I can’t imagine how he will struggle should wrath & destruction enter earth’s every corner. How alone he will feel.

    Apologies for rambling -this got away from me! 🙏😀

    #76352
    bunface @bunface

    Curve Ball:

    so many interesting ideas about Egyptian mythology everyone’s running with, complex alt world theories, refs to previous episodes. Again, it’s as though someone fed a lot of Dr Who into a computer and AI tech went into overloading overdrive!

    BUT

    Did anyone else get a bit of a jolt when Sutekh finally appeared, and was it just me that guffawed slightly? Now I know we all accept the slight naffness of the monsters/costumes with great affection, so I instantly told myself it’s all in the tradition, even after all the high tech wizardry of the time window, but what if Sutekh is a puppet?

    And the TARDIS there is an illusion?

    And the hooded woman is a puppet, one with no face to see? She points like a puppet. So does Susan T, with her puppet like mask. And Mrs Flood makes a strange, puppet-like face after delivering her lines.

    RTD said in DWM that there would be puppets, and also that this all starts with The Giggle.

    Basically, the Toymaker got his hands on some high end tech now, but can’t let go of the simple stuff, because people blind to that is a great joke.

    Has 73 yards anything to do with magicianship?

     

    #76353
    bunface @bunface

    Appreciating everyone’s the ideas on music, btw, and realising how much of the music I miss, being a visual person.

    I’m intrigued by the way the jukebox has had plenty of mentions, though, but doesn’t perform? Or did I miss it?

    In fact, the whole, very blank TARDIS interior now feels like it might be a construct of sorts? With a Maestro touch maybe?

    Come with me and you be in a world of pure imagination 

    Oh, and I would say those awful Beatles were definitely puppets too!

    #76354
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @bunface that’s a good point about the Whovian chatroom feeling.  Who is this woman who keeps appearing? Could it be Susan? Let’s replay this video really slowly and look really closely. Is that an anagram? I found that really fun.

    #76355
    bunface @bunface

    @miapatrick

    Oh yes, me too, I love the dialogue with the audience and the fans especially. I think there’s been a lot of it and now (see my puppet post) I believe it’s actually crucial to the whole ending!

    We’ll see! I think now I’m gonna stop overthinking and just wait for Saturday, like in the old days! 🙃

    #76356
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Sorry this is a bit delayed thought I has sent this yesterday but @dr-pepper-bean how do you construe the Doctor to be weak and feckless and as to be responsible for negligent homicide how, it was the  Coronels decision to investigate as member of UNIT . Okay  I thought Kate had given the Doctor a bit of an accusatory  glare when they discovered the Col. dead and I thought for a moment she was going to order the Doctor detained but she seemed to recover her composure afterwards. Unit investigates what I term extreme hazard situation so the fact that the Col. died is  let’s face it the term from startrek comes to mind a “red shirt” moment is this the Doctor’s fault probably not remember this was a trap set by Sutekh. Unit was well aware that something was up, the Doctor had previously (off scene) forbidden  Unit using time tech and given in the doctors mind I would assume because the tech was there and if memory serves was used on Gallifrey safely he wouldn’t expect there to be a possibility of them interacting with events. Ok the fact that time suddenly started to appear to be changing would have had me running for the hills but then I’m a big fat scardy cat.

    #76357
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

     

     

     

     

    #76358
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    @juniperfish  was a blank post intentional

    #76359
    bunface @bunface

    The jukebox from The End of the World (second NuWho episode where the Doctor takes Rose to Platform One to see the end of Earth):

    Same! Good work @juniperfish. The end of the world (which world??!) is nigh! Again…

    #76360
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @bunface and @devilishrobby

    Thanks yes, blank post, I was trying to include an image of the jukebox with Rose but failed in my efforts!

     

    #76361
    bunface @bunface

    @juniperfish

    Not the first thing to disappear this series… I blame the Pantheon!

    (Which would be really spooky!)

    #76362
    MarkKelly @markkelly

    <p style=”text-align: left;”>Hi there</p>
    New here so here goes….

    In ‘Deep Blue Yonder’ the Tardis is making a groaning noise (possibly in one before as well).

    In the following episode with the bi-generation occurring the Tardis is separated into two parts.

    Is it possible this may have fragmented in some way Su-Tech’s power?  Could this be the key to defeating them?

    #76363
    bunface @bunface

    So does Susan T, with her puppet like mask

    Not to mention the Theresa May Dancing Queen impression. Now there was a puppet pm if ever there was one!

     

    #76365
    ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u

    @bunface

    Is this Sutekh worse than the Magma Beast, or the Myrka, or the Primords, or the Mara or Absorbaloff? Probably not. I suspect something closer to the original Jackal/Canopic Beast might have been more chilling. That actually looked like a deranged dictator. Nb He had a non-divine origin in PoM… worth remembering.

    Mrs Flood would seem to be Marcus Scarman but maybe she’s not what we are being told to think.
    We know RTD’s end of season specials are unfeasibly OTT… I thought the multiplicity of UNIT characters was a bit of an issue but then this was a shot of both IX’s. Still, veering toward the Fam/crowded tardis non-dynamic.
    And the actual Sutekh reveal took an age. Army of ghosts was more snappy.
    I’m being picky.

    #76366
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @scaryb

    Ruby and Carla have already scanned that VHS tape VERY closely – but they never saw a police box materialise and the Dr come out, or the woman turn and point etc…

    Maybe I’m mistaken, but I thought that the raw CCTV footage didn’t show the Tardis because the camera was facing in the wrong direction. What they did was to use the the VCR recording to establish baseline data and reference points. By using Time Window technology to analyse the positions of individual snowflakes and the evidence they revealed of wind direction influenced by the known position of buildings, they were then able to pinpoint and focus on the exact time and viewpoint they wanted. Then, because the tape and the Time Window were linked, what they saw fed back into and altered the tape.

    @bunface

    And the TARDIS there is an illusion?

    Yes, in a sense, albeit a pretty solid one. If my interpretation above has any validity, the possessed-by-Sutekh Tardis on the bridge at UNIT HQ is manipulating the Time Window to insert itself on the scene, so it’s the same Tardis but time shifted back to the night of Ruby’s birth – assuming that was the night of her birth and the baby and her presumed birth mother were not themselves time shifted.

    And the hooded woman is a puppet, one with no face to see?

    Perhaps, if she herself is possessed and acting under compulsion, but if you look very carefully at the scene in the intro to The Church on Ruby Road where she is carrying the baby toward the church, there is a brief glimpse of her chin, and it looks human enough.

    @markkelly

    In ‘Deep Blue Yonder’ the Tardis is making a groaning noise

    Good point! The most likely time for the spirit of Sutekh* to have entered the Tardis was when it was stationed at the boundary of the universe, where much nastier things than shape shifting doppelgangers may have been lurking, waiting for an opportunity to get in..

    * I first typed Sunakh instead of Sutekh. How’s that for a Freudian slip 😮

     

    #76367
    bunface @bunface

    @ps1l0v3y0u

    Exactly, that’s my point – it looks just like the standard Whomonster, so something we’re all used to and will believe in, even against our better judgement, against our own eyes. But maybe this time, we shouldn’t.

    Yes, expecting the OTT, as in big Toymaker puppethouse everything falls apart showtrick. And didn’t RTD advise watching the Nine finales in prep – but maybe the Doctor being ‘a coward’ might be more relevant there?

    #76368
    bunface @bunface

    I first typed Sunakh instead of Sutekh. How’s that for a Freudian slip :-O

    @mudlark

    Haha. Only unless you agree with my puppet theory you’re surely attributing a power where there is none!

    #76369
    ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u

    @bunface
    Sunakh???

    Stooky Bill

    #76370
    ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u

    @bunface

    “the doctor being a coward?”

    I have invoked Doc 5 in comparison…

    ‘what do we DO Doctor??’

    ’Ah! Give ourselves up I suppose… by the way, Mr Ruthless Badass, we ARE quite innocent.’

    ‘Hmmm? What’s that? Oh yeah. Tough.’

    An unfortunate production decision: the universe vs The Doctor: not done that before. Next up we’ll turn him into a sartorially challenged unstable and potentially murderous poltroon. No one’s done that either (I wonder why).

    Maybe it’s like that this time but in game play mode and with 15 as a schmuck. That is he doesn’t seem to be shaping up as the trickster anymore. Is this down to the bigeneration? Remember, when 15 first appeared the other guy got the trousers…

     

    #76371
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @ps1l0v3y0u

    Remember, when 15 first appeared, the other guy got the trousers…

    Priceless!

    Am still trying to work out Mrs Flood. Nothing would surprise me at this point. We don’t know her first name. We don’t know her maiden name. Am now prepared to be told it was Helen Arbinger… But I still hold out hope that she is on the side of the angels (but not the Weeping Angels!). The fact that she knows what a TARDIS is and has been a close neighbour since Ruby’s childhood, must be relevant.

     

    #76372
    bunface @bunface

    @ps1l0v3y0u

    Remember, when 15 first appeared the other guy got the trousers…

    Gatwa told Graham Norton that was Tennant getting to costume first! Leg insecurity/envy.

    I don’t think 15 is a coward per se, just a bit half-cooked as it were, not quite the full enchilada. Hardly surprising.

    Referring rather to the noble act by Nine of refusing to blow up the Daleks as it would take out Earth too, and him calling himself a coward in response to the inevitable taunts. I could see 15 take a similar decision, not least because I don’t think things are gonna be fully resolved after  a short season and the current villains will be back.

    Sunakh as Stooky Bill… Will he end up giggling in a corner till his head drops off?

     

    #76387
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @mudlark

    Thank you so much for clearing up my muddled time-addled little brain! I’d forgotten it was a Time Window they were looking at. (Funnily enough I’ve been mis-reading Sunak for Sutekh a few times! 😛  )

     

    @juniperfish – sorry, not worked out the music for that scene yet, need another look/listen

    #76388
    VickyMallard @vickymallard

    Wow. What the hell was that?! I almost forgot to breathe in between.

    Anyway. Nice to see Mad Auntie Mel again, and Rose and Kate Lethbridge Steward. Also the scene where Ruby was introduced to her confused me a bit, as I thought they did already meet in 73 Yards. But I realised that was a different timeline and an older Ruby, and I guess they never met because the Doctor never stepped on that fairy ring. Isn’t Rose a bit young ot work for UNIT? Although, if they employ 11-year-old geniuses, they would probably also employ the space babies if necessary. But it was nice to see the Vlinx again!

    That time window thing… is that basically what Star Trek calls a holodeck? And this Sutekh thing… was kind of hiding in/around the Tardis? What is it?! Is that an old villain from Classic Who? Maybe even connecte to Susan? Well, I guess I will find out in the next episode. I think I’m currently exactly where RTD wants me to be – utterly confused and wanting answers to a thousand questions.

    I have to admit I’m not really used to parallel storylines like this, so I was almost as torn as the Doctor who was needed in two places at once. I kept thinking: get your a** back to Unit, but part of me also thought: well if this IS his long-lost granddaughter (which he had without ever having a child?! I understand that things get complicated with timetravel, but didn’t Ten say to Donna that HE had a child once?! I guess we will find out.) this might be very relevant too!

    And who the heck is Mrs. Flood?! An evil twin of River Song? Probably the third elment of that whatever they called it… triumvirate of mischief, madness and whatever -together with Harriet and Susan Twist?

    What an episode – I’m really glad I finally came to terms with this season after struggling with the first episodes. So now I can’t wait to see the finale!

    #76391
    ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u

    @blenkinsopthebrave @bunface

    Mrs Flood… I can’t really add much more to what I’ve said already. But if ‘she’ had been born or transported to the early sixties, ‘she’ would be 60 odd today. Though ‘she’ might have added the odd decade via regeneration to help her get across the pond in 1969. And, yes, in that case she would resorted to Terminator tactics to get some new threads. A bit like 12 in Victorian London.

    nb ‘she’ would still have it in for The Doctor today. Question is which Doctor?

    What we’re seeing is classic misdirection. 2 rebus thesp names become snarling death zombies. So Anita must be too! Stands to reason.

    Now anagrams for Anita Dobson… aids nanobots, bosnian toad, dona obtains… but only one n in dona. Shame.

    There are 70 two word anagrams for Anita Dobson. Yeah must be one of them. Oh no don’t threaten the little old lady!! Presumably Lulubelle has been packed off for adoption. Phew!

    Anyway, obviously wrong. Famous last words.

    Also. Seriously, you don’t need Paul Hogan to say ‘strewth, there’s a bloke down there with no strides on’ to realise (albeit belatedly) that something is up. Clearly RTD never had to ask Ncuti where the rest of his costume was. And, whatever has been said in interview, I doubt Ncuti and David only had one pair between them that day.

    As for Stooky Sunskh? Giggling in the corner? He will be decapitated… metaphorically. He will publish his memoirs, undoubtedly. We will laugh, bitterly. I’m waiting for Susan Twist to start talking pork exports.

    #76394
    syzygy @thane16

    @markkelly welcome to the forum! This is a fun, engaging place.

    I absolutely had to rewatch Deep Blue Y & yep, you’re right, the Tardis groaned there. I also like the idea of more than one Tardis as there’s evidence of more timelines (ie 73 Yards) or the multiverse theme.

    @ps1l0v3y0u I don’t know abt Mrs Flood either: I thought, as did a good, pedantic friend, that she is both Susan, and is Ruby’s birth mum and that R herself could be the eye of Horus? …..🤯

    @vickymallard I was completely stumped on this villain too but if you head to the Activity thread you’ll see @craig has put a link to Pyramids of Mars with Tom Baker -it’s my first time watching this & it’s terrific. Naturally it’s a bit clunky & the relationship between the Doctor & SJ is a little different, but it’s properly suspenseful & Baker’s wonderful.

    @mudlark apologies about the confusion re the jackal, the puppy & the fact the astronaut was equine (we really should’ve known this: gazing, or properly glaring at Son…)

    #76395
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Mrs Flood…again. The only likely anagram I came up with was…Molsdorf.

    Although I want her to be on the side of the angels, I do recall that when she came into Carla’s flat her mode of greeting to Ruby was: “…still waiting for your growth spurt”.

    I ask you, who says that to a young woman except a complete and utter Molsdorf…!??

     

    #76397
    syzygy @thane16

    @blenkinsopthebrave of course, Molsdorf is her new nickname now.  😊

    the theory of @juniperfish that Ruby is Horus deposited by Isis… is a very good one (apologies if Son & I mixed up our gods!) & those who paused on Ruby’s mum’s chin to be certain enough she’s human or human -looking, helps too. Admittedly, when I originally saw the first episode, perhaps because I’d just finished watching Whittaker’s run, the woman’s shoes, socks, & general shape, reminded me of WhitDoc… I couldn’t get that out of my head!

    Or as others have suggested  – @ps1l0v3y0u  -is the hood hiding a dome shaped head as per POM?

    #76399
    Brewski @brewski

    Well I am proud to say my record for getting it completely wrong remains unblemished! :p

    Did not see suetekh coming.  And that despite a whopping big hint from RTD!  Recall that the scene where the Doctor shows Ruby what her time would look like it they didn’t fix things was a direct callback to the fourth Doctor doing this with Sarah Jane.  In “The Pyramid of Mars”.  How did I miss that?

    New prediction, one not quite so bonkers: The time window will obviously be used again and one excellent way to use it will be to show clips of classic Who.  Since the image can be distorted, mottled, pixilated.  Not a problem to reuse those fuzzy old video images!  Now we can get lots of exposition by showing the original scenes.

     

    #76400
    ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u

    @thane16

    A dome shaped head??? Strax rocking a hoodie???

    Whitdoc is interesting tho. The Doctor who appeared on a Sunday.

    On the one hand (Jodie says) she doesn’t show up for anyone but Zchib… on the other… perhaps 13 didn’t swallow the whole of The Loon’s story. Is she atoning for Tecteun’s malign adoption?

    3 cradles for the woman who would become The Knightmare. 3 Stooky Babbies. Though there are also apparently 3 nasty godlets in The Pantheon. But are they real or represent something else in a virtual way from ‘t’real world’?

    Doesn’t Harriet Arbinger’s list remind you of Davros’ condemnation of The Doctor and ‘the Children of Time’ from Journeys End? Is it just RTD’s style? (ie OTT)

    Ruby would seem to be something to do with Horus… see the Eye of Horus in PoM. But, as above, maybe the Pantheon ain’t quite what it seems.

    Really mundane explanation… hoodie woman could be Jenny… therefor, yes, Ruby could be Susan.

     

    #76401
    Brewski @brewski

    Come to think of it, the Doctor pointed out in the time window that the image of the TARDIS was solid.  A testament to power of it’s memories, driving the quality of the image.

    We’ll see the TARDIS being used to bring back lots of history now.

     

    #76402
    Brewski @brewski

    @ps1l0v3y0u

    Really mundane explanation… hoodie woman could be Jenny…

    I going on my ever-more-wrong record as saying the hooded figure is the Trickster.  Setting the trap.

     

    #76403
    syzygy @thane16

    @ps1l0v3y0u

    crikey and hells bells of St John you never said dome-shaped heads of ….anyone. (though perhaps in another timestream).

    As you were.

    And yes (edit) RTD likes massive buildups, flying things with pointy sharp bits, listing baddies, and computer or TV screens which judder about but slowly show important or final name of ….. Big Bad

    #76407
    WhoHar @whohar

    Well good to see Omega Sutekh make a reappearance. As I predicted (not). But that’s OK. As I said to @blenkinsopthebrave “being wrong’s just the bits inbetween” (well done btw)

    Having a think about what could urm materialise in the 2nd part. Some good discussion already.

    A couple of thoughts: Red Tardis / Blue Tardis = Red shift / blue shift?

    And re the Doctor not yet having a child but having a granddaughter:

    Bear with me here, as I am trying to recall an episode of Atom (I think) with Jim Al-Khalili. Anyhoo, in that show it was explained that observation of quantum particles / light can influence (change) the outcome. See also two slit experiment.

    Further humans can now observe light that has travelled a long way (and is therefore very old), so therefore it is possible that our observation of said past light alters it’s path and so perhaps our present. IIRC this was extrapolated in Atom to suggest that humans observation of the “past” somehow altered it and thereby caused the human race to come into being. This is all very timey-wimey, but implies that cause and effect are not linear in the sense we understand.

    So the Doc having a granddaughter before he has a daughter is potentially explainable. Or something.

     

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