The Rose & Crown

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This topic contains 990 replies, has 68 voices, and was last updated by  Craig 9 years, 3 months ago.

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  • #32014

    @Handles

    ENGLAND ROCKS

    No. England swings

    #32015
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @pedant – England does the Drunk Giraffe. 😉

    #32016
    Anonymous @

    @thekrynoidman  just checking in man. But thanks for such a timely demonstration of your manners. Kindest to you, puro.

    #32023
    Anonymous @

    @Purofilion

    Like the States, we seem to be a country fast losing interest in anything beyond our shores

    Australia is on planet Earth??

    #32030
    Anonymous @

    @handles  I’m not sure I get your allusion, sorry? Australia for many years, due to excellent current affairs and radio shows, was able to project to the public an excellent understanding of the world at large. Interesting that many of my friends and I know all the US states; know the capitals of virtually all of them; are aware where Texas fits; are also educated at to which state has a ‘shall issue’ law over a ‘may issue’ law associated with gun ownership and concealment.

    We would also know a great deal about Europe, the Euro and at least some of the issues arising from the Union debate in the UK.

    However, during my time spent in America -particularly the fly-over states rather than the Washington’s beltway, I found (some)  people incredibly ignorant about Australia. Some thought New Zealand was in Australia, no-one knew the PM of the country, many believed routinely that kangaroos, emus and wombats hopped on buses and that ‘Abos’ were a species of fauna (although I’m ashamed to say that until 1969, the indigenous peoples were actually written into the Constitution under the Fish Act. They were actively seen and treated as fauna). I suppose we have a better history with our indigenous peoples than many countries do -such as the Native Americans for example.

    Having re-read your posts I realise you weren’t having a ‘go’ just taking the mickey!  When I say some Americans -I really mean that. For every group of 30 or so, I met one American who knew Commonwealth history. For every class of students who said “America is the freest country in the world” (the really say that S***!) there’d be a lone student laughing and choking and sayin’ “it aint free dude”.

    Anyway, kindest, puro.

     

    #32031
    Anonymous @

    No need to apologize @Purofilion. I am sorry that it was poorly phrased and confusing, I will gladly explain it to you.

    Like the States, we seem to be a country fast losing interest in anything beyond our shores

     I read your latest post and could not find any reference to what you or I actually said, so I have reposted it for your ease of reference.

     You posted “We seem to be a country” meaning Australia. Like the “States” meaning United States, is fast losing interest in anything beyond our shores.

     Australia is on planet Earth??

     I should have asked, “What planet is Your Australia located on?”

     Given the fact that one of the United States’ many interests beyond our shores has been fighting an off shore war for more than a decade;

     My bonkers theory is:

     “Your Australia” could not be located on planet Earth, since you apparently don’t know that and you proclaim to know us so well.

     “Your Australia” might seem to be fast losing interest in anything beyond its shores just as you posted, but rest assured that the United States is not..

    Kindest, Kindest, Kindest,

    Barnable

    #32038
    janetteB @janetteb

    @Handles invading and bombing other countries does not equate to a good world knowledge despite the old joke, “Why did god invent war, answer, so Amercians could learn Geography.”

    I have not been to the U.S. but having met many United Staters on my travels, including sitting in University lecture theatres with about fifty U.S. students and ending up being the person lectured too becuase I was clearly showing interest and engagement with the subject, I would second @Purofilion’s words above. In the years I have been on forums I have “met” some wonderful people from the U.S. and I despise generalisations but it is clear that the U.S. education system does not encourage awareness of the world beyond the U.S. borders.

    Sorry @craig for this off topic post. Please feel free to remove it.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #32041
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus – You are right that most Americans don’t know much about other countries. But that is the reason we take trips to other countries is to learn about them. For most Americans going to another country is rare, mysterious, and exotic. The fact that we don’t know much about other countries means that we don’t criticize them either, maybe a little after the trip. But that just proves my point since the criticism starts after you learn about the country not before.   But our values say, it’s your country and you can do what you want there (with some exceptions).

    We know you have a PM and that’s all we really want or need to know. Why do we need to know his/her name? He or She is your problem not ours. If they are a brutal dictator we would probably know his name? We don’t like people telling us how to run our government, so why would you want us giving our opinions about yours.

    I like Canada so much I forget it’s there sometimes, but that’s a good thing to me. No disputes or problems to think about. Thanks for letting me know where cranberries and blueberries come from. I already knew about some musicians, actors, maple syrup, and Mounties. I suppose my trip to Canada is ruined now, eh? Just kidding… I would never go to Canada.  😛

    @janetteb – I really wish that joke wasn’t so close to the truth.  It was funny though.  I don’t disagree with your point about the American education system.  But maybe if you read what I posted above to Arbutus, it might explain why.  It’s my nonexpert opinion, but I think it is close to right.

    #32042
    Anonymous @

    @barnable “It’s my nonexpert opinion, but I think it is close to right”.

    If non-expert, how do you deduce ‘rightness’?  I met many Americans who, as you discussed with @arbutus , criticised Australia having never left American shores. The fact is, I have been to the States.

    Your original message was harmless and decent. Your latest, was it like that? I feel that, having not been to Australia, having met few Australians, that you may not have properly deduced the state of our nation. And that’s fine! 🙂

    As @janetteb claims, the US is the world’s policeman. I criticise the country (though not all of it, by any means) from a position of living there, and from being acquainted with the States via the job.

    There’s not always latitude in this occupation to discuss areas not available for public consumption.

    I can say, wholeheartedly, that many citizens are ignorant of areas beyond their country -socially, politically, economically. For instance, they believe that a budget in the red is an incentive to remove partial free health care. Not having free education causes citizens to be all the worse for that.

    Now, can I state something personal? 🙂

    At first, I might suggest you displayed a very generous manner tempered with knowledge and grace. Really, your theories regarding Dr Who and your personality on this site have been great.

    But now, today, I’ve seen that one harmless comment caused a certain ‘righteousness’ if not unpleasantness. I made it  clear, Barnable, that I was speaking about some citizens.

    But I did mention that “like the States, Australia is….” Such a claim evidently contains generalisations- but mainly ones associated with this country. I love Australia but I don’t love it unconditionally. Its politics is very ‘right’ at the moment to the degree that shows like Dr Who and others may have to be bought by commercial television owners rather than our ABC -run and owned by us, the tax payers. What if it disappeared altogether? 🙁

    I would ask, that repeating statements of mine in bold -particularly when I apologised saying that I knew you were taking ‘the mickey’ (only to discover later that you were upset) might be avoided?  🙂  I think for the other readers -considering the discussions about the Union- we should remain civil – with a nod to agree to disagree! Yeah?

    Nonetheless, older but not necessarily wiser, I shall apologise again. I don’t wish for incivility to underwrite a great show and a forum designed for us all -left, right, blue, red. Certainly though, the odd adrenaline pumping session aint all bad, for as the Doctor said, “the heart beats stronger and you can jump tall buildings” (‘course that might be Superman! A great American tradition) 🙂

    🙂 🙂 Kindest always, puro.

     

    #32043
    Anonymous @

    @handles having re-read your post, I’m surprised I restrained myself. Mentioning ‘the war’  -an arid situation (but heck what would I know?) as well as the over-condescension. And the “kindest kindest kindest” was a little rough and unnecessary, I think. You’re prickly aren’t you? 🙂

    #32044
    Anonymous @

    @Purofilion – I was not pulling my punches.  I have cooled off now.  I like talking about DW much more than this stuff.   What do you say to no apologies?  Let’s just pretend it didn’t happen and move on as friends?    No more prickly here.

    Warm and Fuzzy

    Barnable

    #32045
    Anonymous @

    @handles you’ve cooled off? Well, good for you. I’d gladly tell the American govt -or the UK govt what to do. It’s democracy after all. One last thing: American citizens ought to know the bail outs we gave American banks: our PM; our country. You should know about other ‘ministers; knowing their name is simply 2nd grade. You can’t get all hot and patronising and expect I’m going to be all smiles when you decide you’ve ‘finished’ with an argument that was never one to begin with (see that first post). I did that once already. Puro.

    #32046
    Anonymous @

    @Purofilion

    American citizens ought to know the bail outs we gave American banks

    Yes we should. 

    You can tell other governments what to do if you want.   Re: PM names that’s what google is for. 

    No smilies necessary. 

    Your Pal, 🙂 😆 :mrgreen: 😛 😀 🙄

    Barnable

    #32079
    Anonymous @

    @Arbutus- You said you could take a joke, but I feel like I got carried away and I over shot the mark with that one (nearly passed Orson 🙂 ).   Canada is a beautiful country and I hope to see it someday.  You have always been nice and you didn’t say anything to deserve that.  Please accept my apology.  I hope we are still friends.  

    @phaseshift – Thank you for moving the arguement to the correct forum.  I will use more restraint in the future.    

     

    #32080
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @phaseshift (and everyone)       Sorry about the hijacked topic, won’t happen again! Sometimes without our quite realizing it, a small exchange suddenly becomes a conversation.

    #32086
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @handles    No damage! I will just say a couple of quick things more on this, because I truly don’t wish to offend you or anyone. But, like @purofilion and @janetteb, I live in a small and usually inoffensive country that is misunderstood by certain people (not all people) from a larger, more powerful one, who can’t be bothered to learn the facts. I will add here (as puro did earlier) that of course we have people like that here, too. But you have a big country… there are so many more of you! So it can get a little overwhelming when the only thing some people know about Canada is that it snows “all the time”, we like hockey (true, but we like other things too), and that Rob Ford and Justin Bieber come from here (unfortunately, also true; but we also provided James Cameron, Seth Rogen, and so on).

    I have lived an hour from the border all my life, and have traveled to the States numerous times, but most of what I know about the country doesn’t come from that. My husband is American and grew up in several parts of the country, and I get lots of my understanding from him and his experiences. Also I am something of a newsaholic since the arrival of the internet– hurray for the NYTimes and the BBC online! ☺ But I don’t claim to know everything. I think I could list off all 50 states, but not all their capitals or governers (some of the noisier ones, and Washington because they are our neighbour). I can impress my son by naming a lot of sports teams, but I draw the line at players (except for Derek Jeter and Tom Brady 🙂 )

    Please remember that this is not directed at you! Just some random thoughts relating to some of the three billion people living to the south of me.  🙂  Peace.

    #32111
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    Not trying to stir up any trouble, but I’m very conflicted about Scotland’s “no” vote. (Can we go there?)
    As a very left-leaning English woman, I was kind of hoping that Scotland would stay put, so I’m glad about the outcome : The Tories can’t get too comfortable in Westminster.
    But I was also kind of rooting for Scotland to be a proper, independent country and show the rest of us how it’s done. Like Iceland but impossible for the press to ignore (and with bagpipes to boot) 🙂
    Maybe though, just maybe, this Referendum has shown what happens when the people really get involved: The politicians all panic and no-one knows what to expect. It’s exhilarating isn’t it? That would be a real result 🙂

    #32112
    Anonymous @

    @idiotsavon

    I don’t think anyone really expected it to be a Yes, no matter how much we might have hoped. But losing Salmond today is going to be a major blow to Scotland. If ever we needed him to fight our corner, it’s now. Certainly he’s been the best First Minister Scotland has had since the establishment of the Parliament and the mediocrities of the other main parties will be heaving a collective sigh of relief now that he’s gone. I also fear that they will take the opportunity to screw Scotland hard over the coming months.

    What a tiring week it’s been.

    #32114
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    Who will fight Scotland’s corner do you think? Do you think people have the will and the capacity to organise and influence policy, without recourse to politicians? That would be amazing.

    #32117
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    Meh. I suppose for me, when Yes seemed a real possibility, it would undoubtedly have impacted negatively on my day-to-day life. But I had a real sense that people (just regular, normal people) can make huge changes if they get together.
    I hope that feeling doesn’t go away.

    #32121
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @jimthefish – Salmond was right to go; he was about to become a liability. Because you do need someone to fight your corner – and he’s now seen in England as anti-English. It’s a sign of how good he is at politics that he recognised he’s actually the last person you need right now.

    Nicola Sturgeon, who I’d guess is probably going to take the leadership of the SNP, is much less ‘toxic’.

    As to comprehensively screwed over – not as comprehensively as you would have been in the event of a Yes vote. 1.6 million people so pissed off they wanted to leave – and who are they going to vote for? The Scottish MPs could very easily hold the balance of power in the next government; you’ve got a big, important voting bloc if you just stick together and start going for Devo Max.

    Especially since a lot of the people who voted No would probably also be quite happy with Devo Max.

    #32127
    Whisht @whisht

    @bluesqueakpip – I’m really sorry but if Devo Max is the caracter I’ve heard mention of on so many forums, then that’s a massive Spoiler!

    Shame on you!

    He’s the guy with the chainsaw sword thingy that cuts Daleks in half…. oh.

    oops

    helpmaboab

    #32128
    Spider @spider

    Well i for one say we can go there! I am Scottish and I am British. I am very happy with the result today.  But I also recognise, so many other people are not. It’s difficult, there has been so much debate, so much division. Personally i do not think we need Independence at all, what we need is more powers for Scotland.

    And please, do NOT take those of us that voted no that somehow we are anti Scottish (i’m sure noone here will, but there are others who might..and have). I agnosied over this decision. It was really difficult. My head and heart conflicted a great deal.

    But regardless of the outcome. This showed to the world how you can do things. How change can happen. No guns, no bombs, no bullets. Talk. chat. time. Democracy CAN make things happen. Wow. We should be so proud! record turnout. Ok so not independence, that’s not what we voted for this time. But CHANGE. Westminster has to make good on their promises for more power for Scotland. And equally important the long due debate and change in politics in England, and Wales and Northern Ireland. Now, maybe this seems naive and believe me i am a VERY skeptical person. But once, just once I am trying to be positive about all of this.

    Scotland has not lost Salmond. He is only stepping down from first minister and has stated he will continue in politics.  If he doesn’t end up as #1 negotiator on the team with Westminster i may have to eat my Fez. He’s not everyones cup of tea, I actually do not like him for many reasons, but i respect him for all he has tried to do for Scotland. And i really hope he does end up on the team for negotiating, he is a force to be reckoned with.

    For some reason am i thinking: “One day, I shall come back. Yes, I shall come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.” XD maybe one day the time and situation will be right..its just not now.

    This time yesterday i was faced with a very strange feeling. I was looking out of my window, (from here I can see Holyrood – Scottish parliament in Edinburgh) the haar (mist) was everywhere, adding to the uncertain and difficult atmosphere. We didn’t know how it would go then, results only just floating in. And i suddenly realised it is not every day you head off to go to bed, and not be sure what county you are going to wake up to in the morning. I will never, ever forget that feeling.

    Or… what i need is a time machine XD

    (\(\;;/)/)

     

    #32136
    Anonymous @

    @Purofilion – I agree with your excellent suggestions after this.  Everything is forgotten and as Arbutus says ‘No Damage’.   Things just go unintentionally wrong sometimes.  It is a work in progress.  Small steps.    😉

    All the best,

    Barnable

    #32137
    janetteB @janetteb

    Have watched the news with interest these past few days and really enjoyed the discussion on here. Were I living in Scotland, (have the odd Scottish ancestor), then I think I too would have been conflicted as to how best to vote. I hope that Westminster has had a sufficient shock to now give Scotland and Wales a little more respect and autonomy.

    @arbutus

    But, like @purofilion and @janetteb, I live in a small and usually inoffensive country

    I am afraid that is rapidly becoming less true of Australia.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #32139
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @janetteb

    I don’t know about that! I still think of Australia as a largely kindly nation. Just yesterday, my son was saying that outside of Canada, he really could only imagine living in Australia, New Zealand, or a Scandinavian country!  🙂  But every place has its ups and downs; we have Stephen Harper currently whose idea of democracy is that everyone gets a voice as long as it is singing his tune! But the wheel will turn, sooner or later, it always does.

    As to our British friends, I hope that everyone will be able to move forward (and not backward) from this moment. It’s a heartbreak for all those many “yes” supporters, but I don’t think they’ve achieved nothing. But mending fences within the country, and continuing to improve things within the Union, will be the next challenge, I suppose. Two wonderful cultures, and lots of thoughtful people on both sides of the border, can hopefully accomplish that!

    #32141
    Anonymous @

    @handles forget what you like. Except @idiotsavon and her Goethe theories.  Geothe and Gretchen is great stuff, but then it is German.  🙂

    @arbutus  I’d agree with the general dilemma about the knowledge of countries. In one way, we have so much access to ‘facts’ but then anecdotal information (from your husband for instance) is often another way -a better way -to learn things. Then there’s the news radio and papers. Years ago  -and @janetteb might agree -we had access to good quality print media.

    In my late teens, when I was partying too much, my neighbour (the typical good looking guy next door who you end up dating and then realise he’s better as a friend) used to deliver three papers a day to my front stoop claiming I didn’t know what was happening outside “my front stoop”. I was seriously embarrassed -but he was right!

    Equally, having watched a C series called Burn Notice, they did have a funny line: The dumb goodie: “What, they don’t teach you arithmetic in the U-kraine?”

    Baddie: “Ve are from Bulgaria!”

    Goodie: “Huh, I don’t even know what you just said

    Baddie: out came the Russian dragonovs: “No budy reeps me ov”

    Very funny!

    @spider I loved that last post of yours. The quote from the first doctor is poignant on so many levels. Left a tear in a my eye. Fancy being able to see Holyrood from your apartment!  And the haar -yes I’d heard that word when I was in Edinburgh  – a very very cold and rainy visit (I like the cold -though I say that now). But so beautiful and ethereal. Haar sounds like mist, doesn’t it?

    Kindest, puro.

    #32142
    Arbutus @arbutus

    Sooner or later, everyone that comes here needs a drink, so here it is!

     

    #32143
    Anonymous @

    Great Idea  @Arbutus.

    This should be a top seller here.

    #32149
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip — DevoMax is not on the table, nothing remotely like it. And what they’re now rather dubiously calling Devo+ will almost certainly never appear. Even before the referendum there were rumblings from the likes of Hague, Johnson and Redwood that they’d be kicked into the long grass and if anything those rumblings are getting likely. It’s far more likely that Scotland will find itself getting humped in exactly the same way that it was after the 1979 referendum.

    Salmond was right to go; he was about to become a liability. Because you do need someone to fight your corner – and he’s now seen in England as anti-English.

    Salmond to his credit never once said anything anti-English throughout the entire campaign and went to great pains to do so. If there are some south of the border who perceived the campaign in that way then that is frankly their problem, not his, and not Scotland’s. And it shouldn’t be any reason for him to quit. In the last seven years, the man has delivered more for his country than any other politician I can think of in recent times. An awful lot of the reaction to the entire referendum has been nothing more than petulance and bruised ego and resentment that the Scots would have the temerity to even ask to leave, probably exacerbated by the outright lies and disinformation that’s been peddled — with the BBC being the worst offender. But there’s no reason we should pander to it at all.

    But I do agree that his standing down is a sign of the calibre of the man — but I think it’s the wrong decision for now. I fully expected him to go after the referendum but I think it would have been wise for him to announce an exit in say 9 months, after we’d seen how the devolution talks went one or the other. I really admire Sturgeon and think she’ll be a great First Minister but I’m not sure that she’s quite got the chops to stand up to Cameron et al when they’re in full devious chicanery mode. I can’t think of any MSP bar Salmond who’s capable of that. I think she’ll have her hands full making sure we don’t lose the gains we’ve already made, let alone fighting for more.

    #32151
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @jimthefish

    An awful lot of the reaction to the entire referendum has been nothing more than petulance and bruised ego and resentment that the Scots would have the temerity to even ask to leave,

    Gee, thanks. 😉

    Who are ‘the English’?

    Seriously, who are ‘the English’ that you’re accusing of bruised ego and resentment, because you’re talking about leaving them?

    Very often they are your nieces and your nephews and your cousins and grandchildren. They are Peter Capaldi’s daughter and Steven Moffat’s young sons. They are the people who’ve gone to school with you, who went on holiday with you, who’ve worked with you, who’ve fought with you. After three hundred years of union and four hundred years of a joint kingdom, there are very few ‘English’ who are not related to ‘Scots’ by blood.

    You know, on Friday, I’ve never seen so many people looking relaxed and happy. Not triumphant – relieved. Happy. ‘The English’ are very happy that you’re staying. We don’t want to force you to stay, but we want you to stay.

    Anyway: the General Election is on 7th May 2015. You have a big voting bloc and the possibility of holding the balance of power in Westminster. Stop moaning about getting shafted and start working towards NOT getting shafted.

    Just because Devo Max isn’t currently on the table, it doesn’t mean you can’t work to put it there.

    #32152
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Thanks @Handles and @arbutus for the drinks – much needed, it’s been an emotional week in politics for us Scottish folks.

    It’s also been very interesting watching the various reactions and the reporting.  I do think a lot of the non-Scottish media have portrayed the referendum as an anti-English vote, and focused that in the person of Salmond. It was anything but.  It was a bid for the people who were resident in a particular geographical location to have a full say over their own affairs, regardless of genetic inheritance. The parameters set down in the White paper were outward looking and inclusive.

    I think Salmond did the right thing in stepping down when he did. He’s seized the integrity initiative, which is a lot more than any of the other party leaders have done. Fellow UK citizens – there’s a General Election coming up in 2015. Get involved with it.  Watch closely how “the promises” made to Scotland are played out.  Look very closely at how things are reported in the media, especially the ones you think you trust. Question everything.  Analyse what you are being told as closely as you do an episode of Doctor Who. Look at the camera angles, the scene selection, what’s in the script and on screen – and what’s not. Look for clues as to the overall arc and character motivations. Check for sub-plots and hidden daleks! 😉

    Scotland in the last few months has been a very exciting place to live as people, especially the youngsters,  have got more involved in the process, and been fired up with the thought that their voice can count. 97% of the potential electorate signed up to vote. 84.5% of them actually did. That’s a UK record. I’d love to see it broken next May.

    I’m not worried about Salmond – he’ll be back. He’s going for more (political) regenerations than the Doctor 😉

    Final thoughts – political discussions can polarise people. Political discussions online can turn downright nasty. This Forum continues to be a shining example that online civility (regardless of political affiliation, geographical location, even Doctor preference) is possible. We don’t always agree, but we do (mostly!) remember that the other person just has a different opinion, they’re not Hitler.  Thank you again @craig for setting it up and everyone who contributes with respect and makes it the lovely space it is.

    #32156
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @scaryb – family squabbles are always a bit fraught. 😉

    I agree – everyone seems to keep forgetting there’s a General Election coming up. I keep reading a lot of comments on the Graun that seem to assume the Conservatives are locked in place for the next twenty years.

    They’re not: the reason there’s a Coalition is that, politically, everything is up for grabs.

    The turnout for the Referendum shows that when people have to vote on something that will make a difference, they will turn out in huge numbers.

    Personally, I find our present political elite quite terrifying (all of them, Labour and Conservative) because they’ve done nothing else BUT politics. Right up to and including Brown, every Prime Minister had done another job outside politics. They all started outside what you might call ‘Westminster’.

    But this little bunch all started as researchers or lobbyists. They started inside ‘Westminster’, they know no other world than that little section that lives and breathes politics. Which is incredibly scary (without the B) because, ultimately, politics is about helping to keep the real world running; the one that doesn’t live and breathe politics beyond what’s necessary to work and have fun and bring up their kids in peace.

    #32157
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @bluesqueakpip

    Nice post, thanks. It’s so very easy, especially with politics, to resort to labels, your side/my side, good/bad, black/white. Our parliament after all sets the standard.  It also suits the elite you describe to have us all squabbling amongst ourselves, demonising left or right, (yes or no), while they get on with consolidating a personal power base within that closed world of Westminster.  Political success comes to be defined relative to your personal career and influence rather than how you’ve made life actually better for people. I agree, it’s very scary.

    The look of fear on Cameron’s face a couple of weeks ago when the polls suggested that the Yes vote might actually win is worth remembering. It had nothing to do with idealogical concepts of the worth of the Union, and everything to do with fear for his own career and legacy. It’s the look of a politician who is suddenly reminded how he got his job in the first place.  More politicians need to be reminded that they are directly answerable to the voters. And more voters need to be asking the questions.

    I don’t believe most people in the UK would really prefer a closed-in, intolerant, ultra right wing party.  But when many people are struggling with the effects of policies which are designed to be divisive and exclude the needy, the natural reaction is to close in and be suspicious of “strangers” and “others”.

    I love family arguments 😉

    #32167
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    The Jagrafess itself was a pawn of the Daleks…
    Daleks are the Masters of Earth! Daleks are the Masters of Earth!

    http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Mighty_Jagrafess_of_the_Holy_Hadrojassic_Maxarodenfoe

    #32169
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip

    Very often they are your nieces and your nephews and your cousins and grandchildren. They are Peter Capaldi’s daughter and Steven Moffat’s young sons. They are the people who’ve gone to school with you, who went on holiday with you, who’ve worked with you, who’ve fought with you. After three hundred years of union and four hundred years of a joint kingdom, there are very few ‘English’ who are not related to ‘Scots’ by blood.

    But that’s kind of the point. No one in Scotland was saying anything severing any kind of personal ties between the Scots and their relatives south of the border. It’s about self-determination pure and simple. Those ties would have still been there after independence had happened, even if they had faced some logistical differences when visiting each other. It’s about ending a treaty that might have worked for some time but which a significant amount of people now have deep reservations about.It was never about ‘sticking it to the English’. But there has been some who’ve been very keen to make that the narrative. That and bitching about the ‘moaning Scots’.

    With regards to the General Election. Yes, hopefully, the surge in political engagement will affect that — and both the SNP in the Scottish Greens have seen massive surges in membership even since Thursday. But we’re more likely, I fear, to see a growing sense of angry disengagement again over the coming months. The potency of the independence argument this time around was that there was simply no one fighting Scotland’s corner in Westminster anymore.  And expectations are that Scottish Labour will be roundly punished for their collusion with the Tories over independence. But that doesn’t mean that the SNP will gain more influence over Westminster. In fact, the opposite is probably true — the ‘Scottish Bloc’ will be more fragmented and impotent than ever. And right at this point in our history, that’s going to have serious implications for us.

    #32222
    Pufferfish @pufferfish

    Can I just say how moved I’ve been by reading all your Referendum opinions?

    Throughout the whole process I decided to do a very not-American thing, which was to stand back and let others speak up aye or nay, hoping that a few nuggets of truth might emerge by accident. My initial concern about this particular government setting up a referendum was sited in their obvious joy in trying to find new ways to play divide-and-rule, in ways that confuse and distract and allow them to ultimately hold power and memory-worm us all into forgetting how tenuous the election result was that facilitated the power-grab. A feeling of dread snaked around my head while Scotland debated mostly in good faith, that the current government had D&R plans A and B in place for whatever outcome – matched by a feeling of hope that Scots and the people who love them are smart enough to realise it and use that Helen Keller moment to head them off at the pass. There HAS to be a tipping point, and that tipping point arrived when these charlatans tried to divvy up an entire constituent nation of the UK. Reading posts from @scaryb, @bluesqueakpip and @whisht, I’m confident that there are good and smart people out there with fully operational bullshit detectors. That’s a good result no matter who ‘won’. You’re all BRILLIANT.

    It’s easier to take power (and all the perks) when you feel entitled to do so. That’s David Cameron’s entire MO. And how dare any of you oiks complain if someone who evidently feels born to power has it handed to him, but behaves as if it’s this thing he found behind the sofa and finders-keepers? That look he doesn’t think we notice is the Resting Bitchface of a mean snob. Resign if he’d lost Scotland? Never. Very worried he’ll suddenly be all ‘sod you, it was a NO, business as usual, foxtrot Oscar.’ And then he’ll try to activate plan B. The more tenuous the man’s right to govern, the harder he’ll cling to it – the entire MO of GWB once ‘selected’, and that’s why it puts the shitters up little old American me. We’ll be too busy concentrating on how much we hate this guy to notice the more important shell-game. Look at how this government has tried to turn the term ‘entitlement culture’ into a meme about the selfish undeserving poor. The irony is suffocating. What will they think of next?

    These people are organised. Niemöller’s poem about ‘first they came for the Communists…’ isn’t an admonition for them, it’s a blueprint. The people they’re trying to shaft are NOT organised as well (they’re refugees, or the unwell and unemployed, or small-business operators, or the NHS) because poor people and sick people and the public sector are usually not prepared to be straight-up devious for the advancement of their socioeconomic peers, to say one thing and mean its opposite.

    I worry about being the Cassandra in the room – and staying on track, obviously – but I hope enough people have paid attention to this referendum to decide politics is too important to be left to the politicians, and why they really like low electoral turnouts. My home state is consistently the most electorally engaged (at least 70 per cent of the electorate always vote) and its citizens do a better-than-average job of keeping their politicians in check. Sustaining pressure is an exhausting thing, but if the British public simply whack the kettle on and have a good moan after seeing their leaders getting the fear from an engaged electorate, it will be *such* a lost opportunity. Like many here are saying, nothing scares them more than members of the public who VOTE.

    Now where’s my macro with Capaldi lofting the Sonic, captioned BULLSHIT DETECTOR? Need one, STAT.

    Thanks, all.

    #32229

    @jimthefish

    An awful lot of the reaction to the entire referendum has been nothing more than petulance and bruised ego and resentment that the Scots would have the temerity to even ask to leave, probably exacerbated by the outright lies and disinformation that’s been peddled — with the BBC being the worst offender. But there’s no reason we should pander to it at all.

    See, you had a swipe about stuff being described as paranoid and then chuck in “bruised ego and resentment”. Setting aside the extent to which that inflates the significance of Scotland to the average English voter, it so thoroughly dismisses very real opportunities to build common cause with the 97% of England that is not in London that I suspect generations of great Scots leaders would turn in their graves.

    This is exactly the reason I have little time for nationalism of any sort. It is about divisions, atomism and exclusivity, it is fundamentally insecure and about taking the ball away because the rules don’t suit (you can bet your boots that the North East of England is mighty hacked off that the Barnett Formula has, yet again, been declared sacrosanct).

    @bluesqueakpip

     Who are ‘the English’

    The people Cameron tried to railroad into reform of the back of the Scottish vote and the promises made.

    #32230
    Anonymous @

    @pufferfish I’m with you. Every step. You have a passion for this which is marvellous but I can detect that necessary anger directed at the virtual “we’re leaders, it’s in our blood” theme mixed with the “Oh, look, kittens” which enables them to do absolutely anything whilst the electorate is perfectly distracted by a cosmetic issue (that turns out later to be nothing at all like that).

    Some years ago, whilst in the States, I recall James Wolfensohn being named President of the World Bank. During that decade he battled with the Bank’s bureaucracy and its culture pulling it away from the top down, abstract, cosmetic economic-destiny idea toward a ‘normalised’ vision of the new Western world. His coup was bringing in Maurice Strong ( @arbutus you might be familiar with this fella ?), a Canadian lateral thinker opposed to the so-called  Globalist oligarchies. Unfortunately, when Wolfensohn retired, the White House, keen to get one of their own back in charge, didn’t re-establish the old technocratic/economist view of globalism  but wanted to tailor the World Bank to a more ‘nationalist’ view of the world -one which was connected with religious style nationalist behaviour.

    Democratic nationalism, around the time of Wolfensohn’s  attempts to change the World Bank, did appear, and it was then (1996) that Scotland voted to create its own parliament.

    If I had oodles of time, I’d discuss the dockers in Liverpool -at the time supported, with strikes,  by the Japanese National Council of Dockworkers.

    What I love about Australia, is that we’re expected and entitled to vote. The idea that 12 years ago only 28% of people across 15 states in America voted is a truism about taking democracy ‘one step too far’ and permitting people to stay home and watch the  tele instead.

    Voting, as pufferfish implied, is eloquent defiance. With it, you resist oppression and devastation as it helps prevent a cynical disinterest and disregard for power unchallenged.

    Kindest, puro.

    #32250
    janetteB @janetteb

    @pufferfish That was an excellent post. There were some very quoteable lines in there.

    @Purofilion there are times I question the wisdom of compulsory voting, (Such as last September) but I remind myself that for democracy to work the voting public must be well informed. The problem is not with how we determine who votes but how little they know about whom they are voting for.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #32254
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Jim, if you’re still lurking – come back!

    #32257
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    Can I add to the post by @bluesqueakpip and ask @jimthefish to reconsider and join again soon. An important poster and colleague with a lot to say. I offer my commiserations to him that the result of the referendum wasn’t what he wanted. I think those who have campaigned and had hopes dashed will inevitably feel a bit low at the moment.

    If nothing else, I think the campaign has been beneficial on a number of levels. Personally, I’m glad the result went to No because I’m the kind of boring old lefty who believes that further co-operation and a reduction in National borders is a good thing.

    I didn’t always feel about the Union this way, but that was because a lot of the right seem to see it in a peculiar way – tied up with a Nationalism of its own, Queen, Country, memories of empire, etc. But their thoughts shouldn’t (and don’t now) define my own. I’m for Trade Unions, the Union of the United Kingdom and the European Union. I even think more people should join political parties (of whichever almost matches their viewpoint) to try to have their say on forming policy. Would Labour and the Conservatives be the beasts they are if they relied once again on memberships which at one point stood at 1.5m and 3m respectively (instead of the circa 100k plus they are now?).

    Each institution has their faults, and you can work within them to change them, or walk away. I think maintaining the Union is an important cornerstone in the future. A really uncertain future where resource use and the impact of climate change are going to be critical questions. The challenges know no boundaries. Neither should we in seeking co-operation and the UK inevitably has a louder voice together.

    #32259
    Anonymous @

    @phaseshift

    A really uncertain future where resource use and the impact of climate change are going to be critical questions. The challenges know no boundaries.

    I agree 100 percent.  Changing those things in the US will be extremely difficult I fear.  The corporate influence within our government has only strengthed, due to recent supreme court rulings.  So, some outside pressure may be necessary and justified since it affects everyone in the world regardless of boarders.  

    @jimthefish come back.  😕

    I read your posts all the time.  I rarely tagged a response, only because they were so well written that I rarely could add anything interesting to them.

    #32263
    Nick @nick

    @jimthefish

    I’m sorry to say that. living in Dubai, whilst following the independence debate as close as I could, I missed the BBC lies thing. I’m not sure how serious it was , but I would say Broadcast TV political journalism has changed. Given that professional politicians of all parties are heavily media trained and rarely give straight forward, essentially truthful answer, journalist seem to have decided its their job to put politicians on the spot to try and force a straight answer. It rarely or never works, but that is todays tactic. Whether this was the case with the Salmond interview or not, I bet it played a part. No journalist can be neutral from their opinion either.

    For the rest of the media, newspapers in particular, are political biased both by party and ownership. The BBC and Sky slaves after their agenda, to their detriment. My biggest concern is the debate around independence was the way that the open issues around the impact of independence were smoothed over by both sides. However, in my opinion, project fear had major elements of deliberabate propaganda to generate fear rather than a balanced discussion of the unknowable unknowns (to partially borrow a phrase) that independence would have arise (most notable on the negotiations that independence would have entailed). None of us know, what the vote might have been without project fear, but it seems a certainty that any independence majority would have been small. I think its fair to say Scotland is split on this issue today.

    Personally, without a major change in the way the UK is run politically, Scottish independence is a certainty probably within 10 years, 15 at the outside. As I see it, your choice as an independence supporter is to continue to argue your case (which means a better thought through economic case I’m afraid) to win over the hearts and minds of the undecided or unconvinced. In the mean time, you can also add your voice to those parts of UK opinion, which would like to see and think we need, devolution in England to help create a fairer society for everyone and an end to Westminster politics in their current form (although that may be wishful thinking, the more plural the voices there the better we’ll be). I don’t think this means that you need give up on Independence in any way, but it would be nice to help your cousins down the road to try and walk a similar path.

    Whatever your feelings are towards the BBC right now, I don’t think that means you need put aside all the good things that the institution does, let alone the things that it has spawned (like here). Please come back; I miss your opinion and voice already.

    Nick

    #32268
    janetteB @janetteb

    I can only echo what others have said. @jimthefish you are one of the forum family. Please come back.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #32269

    @jimthefish – you seem to have inadvertently disabled your account. Get one of the mods to  push the Magic Button of Fixing.

    @nick

     journalist seem to have decided its their job to put politicians on the spot to try and force a straight answer.

    This is known in journalism as “doing one’s job”.

    #32275
    Nick @nick

    e@pedant

    Absolutely, but, imo, it too often goes too far. Its the job of the opposition politicians to point up the deficiencies of the governments policies (or vice versa). A journalist job should be to get them to explain it as clearly as possible. This may mean asking them to explain elements which don’t make sense (or runs counter to some particular facts), but it doesn’t mean a journalist should act like an opposition politician. If they want to give there take or personal analysis, it becomes a comment piece and not news.

    Going back to the independence campaign, I cant say I saw one better together politician or news commentary piece (paper, broadsheet or internet) that set out the positive case for the Union (pls point me to one if you read it).

    IMO, any clear rational analysis of the economic issues surrounding independence would have to conclude that there was actually too little information to know what the impact would have actually been (in the short or longer term) and that a lot of that uncertainty was wrapped up in the divorce negotiations between Scotland and the UK. Neither side really made that clear, which lead to both sides setting out their negotiating position instead. For example, it would have been perfectly possible for iScotland to be in a currency union with the UK, but it is also clear that the necessary terms of such a union might be too much for iScotland to accept. Such a Union might only have been needed for 2 or 3 years post independence to give iScotland enough breathing room to set up its own currency.

    It is also my opinion that using fear based argument instead of the opposite approach is likely to be a mistake in the long run. Negative cases don’t address the underlying aspiration. Instead of closing down the independence debate for a generation, I think it is just going to have the opposite effect. The tone of Jim’s comments above if anything tells you something about that.

    #32277
    Rob @rob

    @jimthefish

    Echoing others don’t swim away

    We’d really like you in our shoal sh-cool school

    Bugger politics this is Who!!! 😀

    #32285

    @nick

     If they want to give there take or personal analysis, it becomes a comment piece and not news.

    True, but in the much discussed example here, Nick Robinson is not employed as a news reporter: he is political editor (just as Peston is Economics Editor, Frank Gardner is Security Correspondent etc etc ). They are not employed as news reporters, but for their expertise.

    , I cant say I saw one better together politician or news commentary piece (paper, broadsheet or internet) that set out the positive case for the Union

    One could make a perfectly reasonable case that since Better Together was supporting the status quo it was for those wanting to make change that had the onus of making the positive case (which, on the issues of currency, it failed to do: as one of Clinton’s aides put it: “The economy, stupid”).

    IMO, any clear rational analysis of the economic issues surrounding independence would have to conclude that there was actually too little information to know what the impact would have actually been

    Completely agree (although I was more succinct 😉 ).

     Instead of closing down the independence debate for a generation, I think it is just going to have the opposite effect.

    I doubt that, despite Salmond trying to make hay out of Cameron’s attempts to stampede a Tory view of English reform through. We have a genuine chance of real constitutional reform. It would be a pity if nationalism (English, Scots, Irish, Welsh – they are all just as cancerous and English nationalism would be doubly so if it gained traction) were to derail that.

    #32290
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @jimthefish

    Just reiterating – please don’t go. We miss you already.  We need your knowledgeable fishy bolshiness on here!

    It’s been hard being in Scotland the last few days – hugely emotional for everyone, especially for anyone who’s been around for a year or 2 – there’s a general sense of we’re about to be stuffed through broken promises which didn’t even last 24 hours. But all of us who believe in social justice  need to work together in the next few months to make sure that cynical elite of ARSE’s in Westminster continue to be shocked by the electorate.

    Tom Baker

    As @rob says “Bugger politics this is Who!!!”

    And as the Doctor says – We need to be better than them. We need to be the best we can be

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