The Rose & Crown

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This topic contains 990 replies, has 68 voices, and was last updated by  Craig 5 years, 9 months ago.

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    ScaryB @scaryb

    Ah, apologies – @bluesqueakpip – Who nerd supreme

    *slaps self on back of head to learn to check sources properly! (even blue squeaky ones!! 😈 )*

    @purofilion – dragon fruit – ooh yes please,  can you chuck one over? (Well I guess the heat’s a high price to pay – but that selection of fruit looks great from a cold, grey and squelchy UK (and, yes, it’s dark too 🙂 ).

    Spider @spider

    @scaryb Aha! thought i saw you podding about in the Nethershpere but when we both saw the…oh what? Memory worms you say? I don’t remember that at all. Apart from when we both suddenly woke up shouting at each other across a table…probably not related I’m sure XD

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @scaryb – thank you.

    Ah, yes. I do sometimes paraphrase. 😳

    I didn’t want to say Who nerd supreme because – to be honest – I thought that sounded like I was about to set out my fiendishly complex plan for taking over the entire universe. You know, the one with the over dramatic speech about ‘now, Doctor, I have you in my power!’

    Besides, @phaseshift is so much better at the manic laughter.

    BBCBackHome @bbcbackhome

    Hello all,

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    Anonymous @

    On the topic of Remembrance Day, Australia is today commemorating the ANZAC Centenary of 100 years since armed forces left Albany and West Australian shores bound for the Western Front and eventually Gallipoli. The streets and the Port of Albany have been brimming since dawn and many local radio stations from all over Australia have broadcast speeches, conversations with relatives of the Diggers and orchestral presentations culminating in a concert featuring The Western Australian Symphony Orchestra, Katie Noonan and other favourites.

    Typically, one smudge was a young Australian reporter talking to a group of ex-Brits who were taking part in the day’s commemoration. He said “how do you feel? Comfortable? After all, you were the reason why so many Australians died at Gallipoli that day.”

    I’m sure many listeners upon hearing that question took a sharp in-take of breath and muttered: “good one, mate”.

    To his credit, the Brit responded with, “well, actually, many of us fought side by side and if you look at the statistics, thousands of soldiers from the United Kingdom lost their lives over the course of the Gallipoli Campaign which lasted a lot longer than just one day”.

    Indeed it did.

    A drink for the Fallen. It’s a commemoration not a celebration and there was a time when the two words were interchangeable and well known reporters couldn’t tell the difference. I hope people do know the difference. It’s subtle, to some, but it’s definable.


    Anonymous @


    I don’t want to alarm you but I think Conchita Wurst has just hacked your account 😉

    Craig @craig

    @fatmaninabox It’s just been a long weekend and I haven’t had time to shave my head – honestly! 😀

    Anonymous @

    @craig the lipstick is very ’70s -I like it. It, you know, suits! Or is that a bad thing to say?

    Apopheniac @apopheniac

    As BBCBackHome said:


    Some people with new avatars appear to have several people living all under one skull.

    @fatmaninabox – LOL at Conchita Wurst!

    Craig @craig

    @apopheniac That really did make me LOL. In my defence that was taken at a  festival that had a Circus theme. I went as a bearded lady.

    But really, any excuse to get in a dress and I’m there.

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @purofilion     Thanks for sharing that. With so many dead in WWI, it’s a shame that some people still want to politicize these things. Surely, wherever we stand on the war/anti-war political spectrum, we can acknowledge that? Hopefully, nowadays, we can define our nations by greater parameters than how heroically we died, but that shouldn’t take away from our recognition of the tragedy and bravery of the dead.

    When I was growing up, Remembrance Day in Canada wasn’t actually a day off, so we were all in school and in the workplace in those days. In schools, we held assembly, honoured local veterans, recited “In Flanders Fields”, sang the anthem, and acknowledged the moment at 11am. They still do that in school but not on the 11th anymore, because now it’s a stat holiday. In theory, this gives everyone the ability to participate, in person or via TV, in ceremonies at cenotaphs and moments of silence. I often wonder how many actually do this anymore?


    Very clever device by Tony Jordan in The Passing Bells tonight.

    Until you see them in uniform it is impossible to tell which teenager lying about his age is the German and which is the English lad. Achieved by the simple device of not using cod German accents.

    Many on Twitter seem to have missed this. Shocker. Don’t Tweet and watch, ‘cos if you are tweeting you ain’t watching.


    lisa @lisa

    @bluesqueakpip So perhaps I should explain a bit further that I don’t feel that spirituality is in
    any way a bad thing – however if you look at the issue of religion or how to believe [especially amongst the fundamentalist types in particular whether Christian – moslem – jewish whatever] – they have in common a kind of righteousness that refuses to recognize anything that’s different – and additionally I find that
    religious people can be very arrogant in their believing – and finally I have always regarded
    religion as just another ‘people control’ methodology -I don’t like the idea personally of being told what
    I ‘should’ believe but maybe everyone “should” have the opportunity to evolve in either what they want to believe or if they want to believe anything at all and then maybe folks would find it easier to respect differences!
    So I particularly appreciated that this series of Doctor Who treated belief in the way it did
    A lot of the ideas about belief were thought provoking. I hope that in the future they continue to do more
    of this because as this is a family program I hope that it will spark some ideas and investigation in young people about the subject of what belief/religion is

    Anonymous @

    @lisa I won’t say a lot -but I will say this. There is confusion in this country (Oz) about the nature of fundamentalism. I work with  Muslims. People would argue they are ‘fundamentalist’. The Muslims themselves would agree. But, how exactly is this bad? They follow the rules and conventions of their own belief-system. To be fundamentalist is not to be extremist. Extremism carries the pejorative of something ‘off’ and ‘wrong’ whereas fundamentalism simply means to follow the tenets of that religion with as much precision and care as possible -but without forcing others to do the same and without harming other families or individuals. Those in the habit of practising Judeo-belief systems also work hard to follow the rules and laws of their belief. Those who interpret the Judeo-Christian/Hebraic and Islamic tradition often deliver ‘tracts’ to homes. Part of this tradition is to involve others in a ‘search’ for what might be their ‘truth’. If done patiently and with discretion it’s acceptable and welcome -though one can politely say ‘no thank you’.

    As said on the other thread, we’ve had some great episodes this season treating the elements and criteria of religion respectfully. Like ‘The God Complex’ with Smithy. After all, we have a kind of faith in the Doctor’s actions. We don’t always know what he’s going to do but we trust him to do ‘the right thing’. Not that I’m equating God with the Doctor! -though I recall Tennant making a passing comment about ‘the real Easter coz I was there’ in a stand-a-lone episode back in 2008-9: The Planet of The Dead.

    Kindest, puro

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Let’s take this bit by bit.

    they have in common a kind of righteousness that refuses to recognize anything that’s different

    They recognise ‘anything that’s different’. They just don’t agree with it. Just as you don’t have to agree with them. Nor is this state of affairs immutable; experience has taught me that what changes most people’s minds is experience. There’s a reason intolerant societies, ideologies and people (and religions!) prefer to push their scapegoats out of sight and out of the mainstream.

    I find that religious people can be very arrogant in their believing

    Okay. Coming at it from the other side, I find that atheistic and strongly secular people can be very arrogant in their believing. So what are we left with? Probably that people can be very arrogant in their beliefs.

    I know in Christianity one thing Jesus was very hot on was the dangers of religious ‘righteousness’. It’s a problem Christians have been specifically and frequently warned about – because arrogance is a very common human fault (it’s certainly one of mine!). If people are convinced they’re right, that conviction can easily slide into arrogance.

    But it’s not something specific to religion; it’s specific to people.

    I have always regarded religion as just another ‘people control’ methodology

    I don’t know how much sociology you know. My understanding is that there is a difference between ‘enculturation’ and ‘socialisation’ (the processes by which we learn the norms and values of our birth culture) and ‘people control’. Certainly ‘thought control’ or ‘mind control’, though a very popular fictional trope, is considered fictional by most sociologists.

    The rule of thumb for ‘people control’ is – do people leave? Historically speaking, the record of religons on stopping people abandoning their religion for something else (or for a different version) shows that they’re a bit crap in the people control department. If religions were that good at people control, we’d all still be worshipping the Roman Emperor. 😉

    I don’t like the idea personally of being told what I ‘should’ believe

    You don’t think that stating religions are ‘nonsense’ isn’t a way of telling me what I ‘should’ believe? Because, personally, I don’t like it either. One of the reasons I don’t like it is because it’s a way of shutting down discussion; it implies that the other side holds beliefs that are so ridiculous, no reasonable person would hold them.

    But if you look at the real world, you will find that intelligent and reasonable people have been both religious and non religious. One of the things I’ve really enjoyed about the last few series is that they have made that quite plain. Religious or non-religious, they can be found on the good side or the ‘evil’ side. They might be stupid, or they might be highly intelligent. They might change sides without abandoning their underlying faith – because whatever their disagreements with the Doctor, they know that the Daleks are worse.

    I hope that it will spark some ideas and investigation in young people about the subject of what belief/religion is

    I hope so too. Though I think we may well disagree about the conclusions they might come to. 😉

    lisa @lisa

    @ All I really appreciate everyone’s kind attempts to argue the merits of religious belief
    However I still remain convinced that it is a form of mind manipulation and it is messy and devisive
    Although I understand still that many people find validation in it – I’m not saying it doesn’t
    have historically some good art- advice etc. but It has also historically has been problematic and
    promoted all sorts of bad situations
    I also believe that atheists can be extremely and very seriously spiritual people!! Richard Dawkins said
    “I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding’ that is how it
    tries to remain relevant

    Arbutus @arbutus

    I wasn’t going to weigh in on this, but what the heck. My own view is that the “arrogance” that we see on both sides of the fence probably comes from a feeling of being under threat. I think that the biggest battle in North America these days is really the Christian/atheist one, but of course we also see it between faiths and between sects within faiths. I think that in very many cases, these battles would not have heated up to the point they have if people didn’t think (in some cases justifiably) that others were trying to take something away from them.

    I subscribe to the atheist viewpoint myself, but I find the approach of people like Dawkins unfortunate, because rather than defending his own beliefs, he is attacking the beliefs of others. I am not comfortable with this. And while I know that many problems have and still do occur in the world as a result of religion, as a musician and a historian, I can’t help but balance that against the good that religion has also done. And frankly, people have been treating one another horrifically for all kinds of reasons, forever; they have never lacked “justification”.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    And in the middle of all our discussion on science fiction, some science fact that feels like a Doctor Who adventure.

    Philae has successfully landed on a comet.

    Many congratulations to the European Space Agency. 😀

    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @bluesqueakpip — I’m soo hoping it turns out to be an egg….

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    So long as we don’t discover a bunch of Cybermen trying to divert it…

    Arbutus @arbutus

    Yes! My son (whom we sometimes call Astrophysics Boy) had the live stream on at breakfast this morning. You could see them all watching their computers, getting more and more serious just before the landing info was due to reach them. Then suddenly, cheers and hugs all around. It was actually pretty moving. All those years of work and a pretty spectacular payoff!



    Indeed. Who would think watching a load of uber-nerds and geeks would be so enthralling?

    (Especially with the little “uh-oh” postscript.

    Personally, I think it is nothing to do with a bounce, but that they found these fellas. Which also explains a certain episode…

    Which leads inevitably to this. If you do one thing today, click this link

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @pedant       I love that scene. I think after Christmas I’m going to time travel and watch a whole whack of Pertwee episodes. The look on the Master’s face…

    lisa @lisa

    Saw this and thought the ‘next generation cybermen’ wont need to be inside the rigid shells ?

    Anonymous @

    @lisa if it meant, as River would say, there’d be “a cleavage I could take into battle” as well as a certain lift and tuck in places I could ‘wear’ a robot suit easily  -for physical upgrades (who am I kidding? For a brain too. To do annoying calculus without cheat sheets) but no emotional loss!

    Anonymous @

    @arbutus and @lisa and @bluesqueakpip  we’ve left the religious discussion alone for a while but I wanted to add (God, I always want to add…) that many religions now-a-days, or could I say ‘sects’ of particular religious groups, do actually seek to ‘understand’?

    I also note that there are people (in this first case, the sub-set women) who in some religions I’ve initially been involved with -and then left running and screaming (but that’s another story!) quite smugly admit, “well, I wouldn’t want to be head of the house, dear, or in a priesthood situation because it’s just too darn difficult” or others might suggest upon being asked about the ‘search for a truth’ that “that’s why we have the Bible, it gives us answers and I’m happy with that because I’ve finally found what I’ve been seeking and can stop searching now.”

    From what I’ve seen of my Muslim colleagues, long time Catholic friends and their parish priests together with groups who read the Torah and other additions to religious scripture, there is always a group willing to keep searching and to further understand -not to codify -or make spectacularly certain, but to keep searching for more answers and to discuss, with friendly intent and intellectual radicalism, everything they find. It’s a sparkle to watch. And it also gives me great faith in the human condition to know that people with ethical but not necessarily traditional religious belief can talk with others openly, without prejudice, cynicism, and without herding believers into a cul de sac that connotes all such believers must be one or all of these things: unfocused; needing a ‘crutch’ of a type; lacking intellectual rigour; and adamant that ‘they’ and only ‘they’ have the extra knowledge which makes them ‘right’. If you turn this around, it is just as easy to imply that ‘unbelievers’ or humanists might share these characteristics too.

    Looking back, interestingly, at The Crimsons Horror, the investigation of Mr Sneed in The Unquiet Dead, The God Complex and various stories in BG Who, I can see just how rigorous debates can emerge when projected out from an episode or a terrific weekly show. It also underwrites my belief in the courage of writers and actors approaching such genuinely interesting topics in this long running adventure/sci-fi fantasy programme.

    Kindest, puro (please don’t hit me or throw a drink at my head)

    Anonymous @

    Yeah, OK, on a spot of morphine being a bit ill so my writing is under-par, along with grammar and punctuation. Also, a teeny bit smug, eh? Boy-oh-boy, here come the drinks. Ducks: flop.

    lisa @lisa

    @all Wanted to give a heads up for everyone in the States tomorrow [Friday]the BBCAmerica channel
    is running another Doctor Who Marathon again ! So if you want to DVR MattDoc …….

    lisa @lisa

    WHi @all – I was wondering if any one knows where to find the BG Who online now? I used to be able
    to see every single episode of BG Who on Daily motion on the greendude33 channel [maybe that was 1 of you?]
    but alas- tis no more ! Unfortunately he didn’t leave a forwarding address. I was thinking that it
    might be nice to revisit some old master episodes after seeing comments about Delgado etc. over
    here – so just thought If I inquired here that 1 of you might be able to say?? Thanks !!

    PaperMoon @papermoon

    @lisa – you can get it on Hulu, I think they have all that is available. But where you can get it for free I don’t know, sorry.

    lisa @lisa

    Thanks to everyone !! I did find a few DM channels that have various episodes so I want to share them
    tardismedia2 – -dvlvr – cosmicsurfer1800 – cillbill
    There is really a lot of BG Who between them all but not at all complete
    Also some audio stories and Sara Jane Adventures

    lisa @lisa

    also in addition: cosmic-hobo [terror of the Autons and a bunch of other BG series 7 and 8}
    and Dalek6 that has current AG vids to the DM list above

    Ozitenor @ozitenor

    I am not sure if this is a breach of the rules of the forum, so I will be deliberately vague, but if you visit a certain very famous torrent downloading website (one that’s name resembles a great Douglas Adams written Doctor Who episode with Tom Baker and Romana 1.0) , and search for “classic doctor who” – you can download the entire BG series – every single episode. It is large, and may take a few hours to download, and it will take up a huge chunk of your hard drive, but when combined with a product like Apple TV whereby you send the movie files straight to your television, you can watch any BG episode whenever you like on the comfort of your couch, bed etc…

    Hope this helps.

    Craig @craig

    @lisa @ozitenor We don’t have any rules on this, but the unwritten rule would at least be no direct links, which you have avoided, thank you for that, and that you remember that your posts are your own and do not represent those of the site owner, i.e. me.

    The whole thing about copyright and the internet is now difficult to deal with. In America they have a “Fair use” law where you can post things for review purposes, but no such law exists in the UK. Then again, this site is hosted in Germany but the domain name is purchased through a US company. I have no idea what is okay and what is not, and I don’t want to have to pay a lawyer!

    But I would rather not see this become a site for the sharing of ways to watch Who illegally. If you love Doctor Who then invest some money in it. The DVDs from the BBC website are extremely cheap these days.

    Classic Who (some of it less than £6.00)

    lisa @lisa

    Ok @Craig- If you want to delete those posts no worries !! I also had no clue about all that stuff

    Craig @craig

    @lisa No worries here either. I’ll let it go for now unless I get asked to take it down. We’re not that big that your posts will bankrupt the BBC. Not yet anyway 🙂 In fact, you’re helping them out if they want to shut things down.

    Just by calling this site The Doctor Who Forum we are, I think, technically in breach of copyright and I keep waiting for that cease and desist letter from the BBC (hence the disclaimer in the footer). But I’m guessing the gain from publicity is worth more than the negligible loss of the BBC’s property’s name used on a non-BBC website.

    And I think/hope Moffat and Capaldi check in here every now and again and haven’t complained.

    I’m guessing that’s why they let greendude33 get away with it for so long as well – no such thing as bad publicity, until it gets too big.

    Ozitenor @ozitenor

    My sincerest apologies. Nonetheless, there are recreations made of “lost” episodes that use the audio over on-set photography taken during production. Again, I have no idea if these efforts are some breach of copyright or not, I suspect they may be, trying to think like a lawyer, but nonetheless I don’t think they are available for purchase anywhere. Additionally, there is the wonderful Shada episode that was not televised. These are worth seeking out – but yes, I agree, not if it involves overt piracy: such a thing should not be condoned.



    Nope. Titles can’t be copyrighted.

    BUT you may (and almost certainly are) in breach of trademark. But the BBC would have to prove harm for any suit to be worthwhile. Hence fan sites are invariably OK.


    Edit: Tardis is a BBC trademark, so I presume Who is too

    Bonus fact: It is not JK Rowling, but Warner Entertainment that owns all Harry Potter trademarks.


    @arbutus @bluesqueakpip @jimthefish

    So in another corner of t’interwebz the inevitable question of “Couldn’t they find something better to spend €1.4bn on” came up.

    This is a summary of my responses: On the unexpected beach


    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @pedant — that’s a fine piece. Enjoyed reading that. Good  title too.

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @pedant    Seconded. We can’t have too much writing out there supporting the value of scientific research in clear and irrefutable statements! There are a truly frightening number of viewpoints that are illogical and indeed, completely boneheaded. Well done.

    Anonymous @

    @pedant Great article and exactly what I needed to read. These days people are complaining about two things: a) let’s ‘train’ up children for work and b) spending so much money on ‘sciencey things’ is unnecessary and irresponsible.

    On the first point, I’ve always believed in knowledge for knowledge sake (eloquently put by you and Prof Cox) and it’s a hard road, as a teacher, to expect other teachers to understand that students need a good solid education before deciding, and whilst deciding, their ‘occupation for life’ (which is oxymoronic these days anyway): It will ever be impossible to raise a stable structure of intellect on bad natural foundations.

    On science, you’re absolutely right, many wonderful and necessary (ultimately anyway) discoveries  occurred as scientists were working on other experiments. I think the electron, when discovered, served no practical purpose, human genetics and Rogaine as well. You can’t tell where undirected research will go -at least I can’t, and neither can the naysayers in our parliament: none of whom are scientists. To them, I’d say: everything has a benefit, incalculable on many levels -which is kinda the point. Great achievement has no roadmap and we need to keep going until we’ve found a seamless intellectual framework for our universe bound by the laws of science -which at the moment, are pretty ‘bendy’.

    Kindest, puro

    lisa @lisa

    Just curious if any one came across any news of the Doctors tardis being spotted
    in the Brisbane area during the G20 event? I personally am not aware of any.
    I thought it could be a possibility since our Doctor is now also the
    Earth President. But apparently its looking like he ditched the event.
    I know its still too early to expect Santa so it didn’t surprise me
    that there wasn’t any spotting of Santa’s sleigh either. Maybe the Doctor
    was thinking that this event was attracting too many of the ‘pudding-heads’
    of state? (oh dear! I shouldn’t have said that) So anyway, the thought
    crossed my mind so I thought I might give it a mention.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Further to @fatmaninabox‘s request, I’m posting this here.

    Slightly ironically, considering our robust disagreement yesterday, the BBC website has published a piece on their ‘Ouch’ section. It’s about ‘The meaning of Mongol‘.

    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    I’d also add that Uuganaa Ramsay’s book Mongol is well worth a look and kind of relevant to yesterday’s discussion. She’s a Glasgow writer but her biography talks about reappropriation of the word Mongol to mean, as it should, someone from Mongolia and also talks about her child being born with Down’s Syndrome and having to then cope with an added (unwelcome) layer of meaning.

    Anonymous @

    As a fan of cricket, I thought I’d say RIP to our beloved and quiet cricketer, Phil Hughes, who died today after an awful fluke accident -a ball hit him in the neck under the helmet’s rim. He was not an outstanding player -yet, but at 26, in three days time, he had the potential. Anyway, respect: always. Death has seemed very close this year.

    janetteB @janetteb

    @purofilion I hope you safely weathered the storm.



    Rob @rob

    Echoes @janetteb and hopes @Purofilion ok

    Reports are of a violent storm with hailstones the size of tennis balls


    Anonymous @

    @janetteb yes we were very lucky. Grass white : tin roof nearly smashed with brick sized hail. Mr Ilion’s school was totally trashed. His office, all the teachers’ classrooms, acres of work completely lost and windows smashed into the pool!  A parent had just hopped out of her car…and bam! a tree landed on it… It’s match box sized now. I think there were 3000 claims in the first hour.

    Thank you, puro


    Anonymous @

    @rob and thank you too. Yes, some mud, some thing that looked like snow but was hail washing down into the drains. The wisteria is out -and the jacaranda @fatmaninabox would know these lovely plants  but most of it is lying in the driveway. Still, Summer’s here and I’m not sure there’s any point in cleaning much of it up just yet…

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