The Winchester

[WhoHar @whohar]

@janetteb @blenkinsopthebrave @winston

Thankfully the results seem to indicate a shift in voters preferences towards more progressive policies. And, given the Coalition leader also lost his seat, I like to think this may signal that all parties will move away from their more divisive pronouncements. Given the bile already being spewed on Sky though, my hope may be somewhat forlorn.

And, yes, I too was hoping for more Greens and Independents. I went to vote and one of the candidates shouted out “Vote Legalise Cannabis Party, we’re the only fun party”. It’s a bit different from voting in the UK, that’s for sure. No democracy sausages there.

 

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@janetteb  @winston    That’s TWO good results we have to ‘thank’ Trump for!    Mainly for the exact opposite result from what Trump demanded, so I’m not sure thanks are warranted.   More like schadenfreude.

At this point I can’t think of any country whose voters are so ignorant, that an endorsement from Trump or his gang members wouldn’t be electoral poison.   Apparently the deranged idiot is so delusional he’s released a picture of him as the Pope.   Is there anyone left on Earth that he hasn’t offended or insulted?   It would be hysterical if he didn’t have the power to destroy economies and ruin lives.

[nerys @nerys]

@dentarthurdent I think his posting of that image of himself as the pope was done deliberately, to drive anyone who opposes him out of our minds. And, of course, he is succeeding. He cares about nothing more than further bloating his own wealth and power, and destroying those he sees as enemies. So when we protest something he’s done, he’s happy because he has accomplished exactly what he set out to do.

@winston I so agree with you about Canada’s PC party. If they were truly progressive conservatives, then I would be supportive. But no, they have turned into uppercase Conservatives, parroting much of the hatred and division they admire from south of the border.

I really wish that the Liberals had secured a majority government, but unless recounts of the close races change outcomes in the Liberals’ favor, Liberals will form a minority government, with the PCs as a powerful opposition. “Opposition” being the operative word, because that’s all they’ve been doing for the last five or so years. Canadians expect our government to get things done, now more than ever. But if the politicians dig their heels in along party lines, then we’ll be stuck … at a time when being stuck is the last thing we need.

My only hope lies in the fact that, despite protests to the contrary, Mark Carney is a very different Liberal from Justin Trudeau. Trudeau was more idealistic, while Carney is pragmatic. Given what Canada is up against, I think a pragmatist is who we need right now.

[nerys @nerys]

I wonder if the BBC saw this coming: https://www.theguardian.com/film/2025/may/05/fears-trump-foreign-film-tariffs-wipe-out-uk-movie-industry

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@nerys

Surely, according to his logic, we should be penalising Hollywood?

Perhaps the elect have had enough of efficient well trained British thesps what with their manageable egos, professional timekeeping and mysterious accents. The villains need to be less sympathetic.
Time for Broadway hoofers to wipe off the lipstick, grab the black hat, forget to shave, hit the spitoon, and kick a mangy dawg.

[nerys @nerys]

@ps1l0v3y0u Apparently this is aimed squarely at the Canadian film-making industry, which certainly is no powerhouse compared to Hollywood. But tax incentives here make it appealing to use Canadian locations as stand-ins for American ones, so apparently less and less is being filmed in Los Angeles and other traditional filming locations in California. My response to that would be, “Why not improve your American incentives?” But no.

[nerys @nerys]

Another good article about this: https://www.theguardian.com/global/2025/may/05/hollywood-trump-tariffs-international

Of course, movies shot in the US aren’t required to head for an Atlanta parking lot, use green-screens for exteriors, or to shoot Albany for Manhattan. There are, indeed, plenty of opportunities for visually spectacular location shoots in the United States. But shooting in other countries isn’t (always) just a matter of (only) saving money. After all, the last couple of Mission: Impossible and James Bond movies shot all over the world, and were mind-bogglingly expensive. These movies follow the rich tradition of giving audiences a look at landscapes and cities that they may not be able to visit themselves – at least not all of them, and certainly not in the span of two or three hours. Part of the reason that movies like No Time to Die or Mission: Impossible – Dead Reckoning feel more “real” than the average streaming action picture (which also, after all, tend to feature spies, action, big stars and so forth) is that they take place in a physical world that’s both recognizable and, to people around the world, exotic in its reach and diversity.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@nerys

The best all-American movie I have seen recently is the wonderfully funny (and strangely prophetic) “Idiocracy” (2006).

Highly reccomended.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

For those who have never seen it, here is the trailer to “Idiocracy”

 

[winston @winston]

@blenkinsopthebrave    Do you sometimes feel like you are in that movie? It looks funny, I will look for it.Thanks.

stay sane

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@winston

I hope your local library has it. Or, who knows, it might be on youtube. It is very funny.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@cathannabel @dwnerdfrommars

Lewis confession. I’m really not sure about The Last Battle: weird death cult vibes & the problem of Susan. In fact, C S Lewis is often really quite annoying. The man who thought it was cool to indoctrinate kids with The Trilemma.

And then he’ll go and write the damnedest thing, like the Dwarves who wouldn’t be taken in, or That Hideous Strength, in which he got a handy Franco supporting chancer to help him finally nail down his ‘women are either little girls or witches’ thesis for grown ups, and yet create stone cold brilliant sci fi.

More heresy: Eustace and Jill are far better written and more sympathetic characters than any of The Pevensie kids; and The Magician’s Nephew is the best book of the series, though A Horse and his Boy is very underrated.

Has anyone checked out The Chronicles of Narnia = coded medieval cosmology theory?

 

 

[Cath Annabel @cathannabel]

@ps1l0v3y0u

You sum up my feelings about C S Lewis very well. I read the Narnia books when I was very young, and as I was brought up in a strongly Christian household accepted the Aslan = Jesus etc allegorical elements without really questioning them. But for the most part they stand without that, as I realised when I read them to my children long after I’d lost my religious faith. There are stone-cold brilliant bits in all of the books, things that I can recall so vividly after all these years, and that fuelled my imagination and prompted my reading throughout my life. And then there are the bits that punch you right out of that mindset with the sexism (Susan in The Last Battle but also earlier ‘Battles are ugly when women fight’, as Aslan says of Susan and Lucy) and racism – the descriptions of the Calormene in The Last Battle are awful. We censored these bits and some others when we read them to the kids! Same with the SF trilogy – there are bits in Voyage to Venus/Perelandra particularly that are etched into my memory because they’re so vivid and brilliantly imagined. But then That Hideous Strength… I always liked The Silver Chair in particular, I think, because of the bit in the underworld when the witch/snake/queen is trying to enchant them into believing that their world above ground is merely their imagination constructing a wished for brighter/better place. Absolutely formative reading, even if I strongly reject some bits – and so I disagree with Philip Pullman, who I admire enormously as a writer, but who regards the Narnia books as pernicious per se.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@nerys  @ps1l0v3y0u      It also threatens the New Zealand movie industry,  depending on the details of exactly what is going to be sanctioned, er, tariffed.    Probably tRump has no idea how he’s going to implement it.   Typical tRump, misses the target but causes the maximum collateral damage all over the place.

Short term it will harm the film industries of a number of countries which depend on Hollywood outsourcing productions.   Longer term it could mean the end of Hollywood as the centre of the global movie industry as other countries develop their own movie industries.    I don’t think that would be a bad thing.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@cathannabel

I also struggle with Pullman!

I don’t mind Lewis’ theology. It’s there. You’d be mad to ignore it. Just don’t like the philosophy. Lewis was a literary scholar NOT a philosopher.

I think his male chauvinism was so over the top, it’s half hearted: a kind of pipe and slippers in the drawing room pastiche. I’ve expressed my admiration for his portrayal of Jill Pole, but Aravis is fantastic too. He could do it if he wanted to.

The dwarves in the barn are, on the face of it, a predictable post war classist poke… a bit like Tolkien’s Scouring of The Shire. But I get so annoyed by twitty contrarians whose sole goal seems to be to wind you up. And it’s one of those little literary bombs… bits of writing you remember.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

I may have mentioned this book previously, but I was just reading this news today

https://www.timescolonist.com/local-news/billy-proctor-heart-of-the-raincoast-dies-at-90-10678357

When Mrs Blenkinsop and I first visited over 20 years ago, we were walking around the inner harbour of the main city late one evening, and heard a bubbling sound.We looked over the edge of the walkway into the water, and there was a baby seal. We decided then and there that this was where we wanted to live. It took us a while, but we finally moved here 10 years ago.

Like the baby seal, the story of Billy Proctor captures what is special about the place and why it needs to be protected.

p.s. I totally agree with Billly’s attitude to shorts…

[winston @winston]

@blenkinsopthebrave   You do live in a special place that does need protecting. I remember being lulled to sleep by the barks of sea lions in the inlet and having a harbour seal swim up to me on the dock just to have a look. I could go on forever but you live there so you already know. I will check out the link later.Thanks

staysafe

[WhoHar @whohar]

@blenkinsopthebrave @winston

That’s a lovely read; I’d not heard of him but what an interesting life.

And this quote from the article

when an elder dies, a library burns to the ground

Magnificent.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Chib… the fall out from Wish World.

This doesn’t seem to have much to do with him. Russ should be able to navigate his way around this admittedly clumsy execution of the Timeless Children erm… revolution. End of that particular story.

On the other hand we have Ruth. I have issues with Ruth. There was a companion who died for Ruth! Before our eyes. Terrified. He knew why Ruth was on the run. We’ve NOT heard that story. At all. I’m not happy about it. Never mind Noor Inyat Khan or Old Cockneys strutting Deep South buses looking shifty, how can you, a show runner, go THAT wrong? That’s not Who.

Got to say, I’m not sure WHAT Chib was trying to do. I understand his constraints… but what did he actually WANT to achieve?

He ain’t saying. And Russ doesn’t want lose the sale.

Is there a plan? A Cartmel type ‘guide’? Did Chib interpret it differently? Somehow. Or did he deliberately vandalise it? Because the corp, with a sale in view, may not have liked the idea of too much continuity porn. ie The Plan. The Plan is a continuity control mechanism. Another reason the beancounters can’t tell you what to do, damn their eyes!!

Over to you Chris.

Well, that didn’t work. Now we have it in spades, continuity, mainly because we need to make sense of Ruth. Ruth is the biggest thing to emerge from the pen of Chib. The Lady Doctor from before the slightly rubbish erm… sub Faye Marsand Doctor we ended up with. Sorry about the scripts. We got this new kid in.

No! How could that creative decision go SO wrong?

Ruth isn’t wrong. We like Ruth, but I wonder if the creators understood that? And if they didn’t, why?

Maybe we need less continuity, more engagement.

Discuss…

 

 

[janetteB @janetteb]

@ps1l0v3y0u I think you sum it up well. some very good points there.

I felt that Chibnell was stomping over what little continuity there was. take Gallifrey which I know I do harp on about,,, When Moffat resurrected Gallifray he discussed it first with RTD. (is that ok mate if I do that) it wasn’t a rewrite but it was changing the direction set by RTD. Chibnell then just goes and destroys Gallifrey again, as though he is deliberately running the bulldozer through Moff’s work. Ruth’s  buried Tardis being in the shape of a police box, while I understand that visually it might be needed to work, goes against all established canon. If she was an earlier version of the Doctor she wouldn’t even have the same Tardis. We saw Hartnell Doc steal it before it took on the shape of a police box. There isn’t much continuity in Dr Who but that is core, a founding myth as it were.

there were plenty of mixed messages in the episodes, the one that appeared initially to be having a stab at Amazon but ended up being a stab at unions. the spider one was also weirdly mixed. As was pointed out by a Guardian journo at the time, it is was  though he was trying to appear radical while actually being deeply conservative. Ie look how radical i am casting a female as doctor but then giving the female doctor an old male companion to tell her what to do. I got very tired of Graeme. He really needed to spend less time on the tardis as he overshadowed the Doctor on many occasions. However it is now established that the Doctor can be female so a cheer to Chibnell for that. I also really like the theme music in those years. there were some ok stories, but nothing that really stood out. there were no absolute stinkers either though. No space babies so there is that.

the wheels turned over, some aspects of the chibnell years however do need, “revising” and I would be very happy if Ruth Doc was explained in a “better” way and the timeless child either forgotten or also rewritten. It wasn’t so much the concept that was the problem but the execution. if you are going to make that level of change to the story you have to do it very well. It was not well done.

whew. sorry for the rant.

btw I think Faye Marsay, (assuming that is who you are referring to) is great. Have watched her career with interest since Last Christmas and um, i think she would probably be a good Doctor.

Cheers

Janette

 

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@janetteb @geoffers @mudlark

Yes! Let’s all have a good rant down the pub.

Hey! I just posted a major essay into the ether. Tsk probably a good thing.

The quintessence:

Ruth is fine but the continuity is weird. It probably needs a bit of retro conversion.

The Division is reminiscent of The Obsidian Order/ Tal Shiar/Section 31. But it and t’floox could also be Chib’s metaphor for The Corporation and the thought police.

Because Douglas was cancelled. The Doctor has a timey wimey wife and a bombshell mother in law which may or may not be sus but Clara is NOT allowed to use time travel to check out her own rear view, and jokes about the Bechdel test on the Orient Express don’t go down well. You are not to be allowed anywhere near a Ladydoc, Steven.

So Chib takes charge with complicated corporate wish list which doesn’t help him but he also has a tendency to be quite unnuanced and soap operatic. It doesn’t work.

On the other hand Ruth and The Timeless Children may have been part of a hypothetical Cartmel 2.0 plan all along. Moffat had stuff planned out til 2020. It’s just Chib is not a sub edding obsessive like Russ, so it was done badly.

The Division has obviously been nefarious forever, whatever is done with Ruth’s backstory. Does that explain Hedin or Goth, who incidentally was also the Time Lord who finally scragged 2? Of course the Doctor can be wiped. That’s why we were introduced to the Neural Block in Hell Bent.

Finally dates.

October the 5th mentioned in Boom leads us to:

The Mindrobber = VR & Conrad

Paradise Towers = Mrs Flood doing a Richard Briers turn and a brain in the basement which may or may not imply Great Intelligence.

Remembrance = Omega (strictly just the hand), Daleks, fascists and genocide. Ace doing her hair would be nice.

May 24th = the War Games. Building an army through mind control. Villengard could supply some stuff. Villengard wanted to supply a star. Where is the V’linx? Mel knows someone beginning with V! Got to be there for dome reason.

Also, Who skipped a week in 2008 thanks to The Eurovision Song Contest. The next ep on May 31st was Silence in the Library.

The Water in the Forest (of the dead) is The River. Rogue’s reaction to 10 in the scan. Dot. Everyone is eaten by monsters.

Who were Susan’s parents? Assuming one wasn’t Jenny. The Doctor has a wife. Does Darillium have a Maternity Unit?
Who is Poppy?

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

(De-lurking.   I’m still here, just I haven’t had occasion to comment recently).

@janetteb   Interesting post, and I agree with all that.   Except, I wouldn’t even give Chibs much credit for establishing a lady Doctor (I’m mean!)   Missy had already established that Time Lords can be female, and so did the general in Hell Bent who regenerated as a female when Capdoc shot him.    It was about time for a female Doctor.   Actually, I think Chibs royally stuffed it up and did the concept of a female Doctor a disservice.   I was absolutely prepared for a female Doctor, but the writing – and the dramatic interpretation – of Jodie Whittaker’s doctor was so ‘off’ that after the first few minutes of The Woman Who Fell to Earth,  I said to myself ‘that’s NOT the Doctor!’   She was more like one of those annoying sidekicks who one wishes would run into a Dalek.    Doctor Ruth would have been immeasurably better, or Liz 10 just for example (yes I know being Liz 10 would probably disqualify her from being a Doctor, but stranger things have happened).   Or for that matter, Grace (Graham’s wife) who got so needlessly killed off in the first episode.

Jodie Whittaker slowly improved over the years, but that awful initial introduction biassed me against her.   Initial impressions are very powerful.   (It took about ten years for my opinion of Donna to mellow after her shockingly brash first incursion in Runaway Bride, I only finally accepted her as a likeable character in the recent episodes with Tennant Mk 2.)

I too found Graeme rather tiresome, and his relationship with on-and-off dyspraxic Ryan tedious and uninteresting.  Nothing against Bradley Walsh, who I think did the best he could with some terrible lines.    The last three specials, with Dan in place of Graham, and Yaz finally being given some better writing, were almost acceptable.

I’m not a fiend for continuity, but where Doctor Ruth fits in does bother me.  Though I do appreciate the visually dramatic reasons for digging up a Tardis police box.   What bothers me more is the way Chibs completely trashed the Doctor’s timeline.   And the Flux episodes completely jumped the shark, and I’m not sure any amount of retconning could fix it.   I deal with it by mentally ignoring that whole chapter in Doctor Who.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@janetteb

btw yes I meant Faye Marsay. T’other end o’Yorkshire and meant to be the next companion but I think this proves there is some kind of Cartmel 2.0.

Shona grooved like Ace. Or Anita (Sandringham, not Dobson. Especially in Richard Briers mode).

Russ! Time for Faye! I’ll do the script and everything. Faye… & Anita! BAMF!

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@ps1l0v3y0u  @janetteb  @dentarthurdent

Throughout Chib’s tenure I tried when commenting to seize on anything positive and downplay the rest, but by the end I felt it was wasted effort – and it was often an effort. The Timeless Child concept does smack of a Cartnell type plan and I have no particular problem with it as such, if only it had been introduced in a more subtle way, and without the Master’s associated hissy fit and genocide of the Time Lords out of jealousy and pique. RTD’s introduction of the Time War was just as radical and it was absorbed into the continuity with no problem – as was Moffatt’s reworking of it. The same applies to the Division, which fits reasonably well into the known history of the Time Lords as long as it remained a reserve force to intervene in the affairs of the universe when absolutely necessary – and if the Doctor was once a part of such an organisation it helps explain his incurable impulse to intervene and help – but having it go completely off the rails and instigate the destruction of the universe is a step way to far.

It’s hard to judge Jodi Whittaker as the Doctor, not knowing what she might have made of the part with better writing and better direction, but I have a feeling that, excellent actor though she is, she was probably miscast, and if what I have read is correct, her problem was very much compounded by the fact that she didn’t have much prior knowledge of the show and was specifically instructed by Chibnell not to watch any of her predecessors in the part. When the character you are playing is a serially self-renewing alien who is supposed to remain essentially the same at core, however radically they may alter in appearance and personality, I don’t think that is the way to do it.

What we have seen of Jo Martin as the Fugitive suggests that she would be great as the Doctor, but probably better under a show runner other than Chibnall.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@ps1l0v3y0u

I well know that feeling of seeing a long and carefully thought out post disappear into the ether. The answer I’ve found is to copy everything before hitting submit; then, if it goes astray you can just paste and repost it

[janetteB @janetteb]

@mudlark. I did not know that J.W. was discouraged from watching any previous Doctor’s. It seems Chibnell had his own vision for the show, perhaps going back to his fan club days. I do feel that J.W. was not perhaps ideal casting. To me she was the Peter Davison equivalent but like, P.D. with better stories and direction she would have been much better. (also without the annoying Graeme but then, all three companions were badly served by the scripts.)

I too usually copy what I have written before hitting post. I am on another forum which frequently logs me out and as I am doing minutes on that forum I have to ensure that I don’t loose anything so I have got into the habit of doing so.

cheers

Janette

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@mudlark That’s roughly what I do if I’m embarking on a long post. Well, actually I compose my message in a text editor, then copy the finished message into the Who webpage editor.
Also good insurance against hitting ‘Submit’ by mistake halfway through, or when I have afterthoughts.

For the rest, I agree with all of your comments.

@janetteb I believe JW herself said that Chibs had discouraged her from watching previous episodes. It seems extraordinary to me, that a serial character wouldn’t wish – and be expected – to see what character he/she was being asked to emulate. Oh, here it is: https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/jodie-whittaker-i-was-told-not-to-watch-doctor-who-before-my-audition/
In other words, JW did propose watching them and Chibs told her not to bother. Huge mistake IMO, even if he wanted a ‘fresh perspective’, I think watching a few of them would have given her an idea of how to approach the role. For starters, she might have been less annoyingly daffy and dithering, which (I’m guessing) she might have thought was strange and alien. And yes, I think it was miscast as well. I have a suspicion Chibs disliked Moff’s Capaldi episodes and was trying to distance himself from them, and trying a bit too hard.

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@mudlark @dentarthurdent @janetteb

The theory that a Ladydoc shouldn’t in anyway ape a ‘blokedoc’ is not necessarily unsound. You might say it was an act of faith by both actor and writer.

But then the Faye Marsay resemblance is down to either:

1. er… ’kookdoc’ – which is a bit insulting isn’t it? On many levels. I wouldn’t put it past Moffat. But then he would have supplied JW with 5x the wit. But I’m thinking Professor Albert = Byron. Drama = threat/urghh gross.

So, maybe Chib HAD to supply JW with the Fam. In other words the politics hasn’t evolved much beyond the Chronicles of Narnia. Sigh.

2. This was actually a rationalisation formed from Cartmel 2.0 and The Corporation’s quite defensive wish list. Someone must have considered what  Ladydoc must be like in the previous decade.

Could have been the end of the road for Moff.

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

From The Problem with Chris, to date analysis. I wouldn’t usually bother with this level of analysis, but October 5th does seem to have Mindrobber, Remembrance and possibly Paradise Towers links (btw the last one is hard work). Anyway Oct 5th is in the text. So kinda nailed on.

May 24th & 31st is more speculative: the War Games has recently been colourised and abridged, deals with a nefarious military complex like Villengard, and ends with a possibly contentious regeneration. Silence in the Library deals specifically with VR. See my recent posts on the appropriate forums. It also has a character called Lux as well as echoes of Dot and Bubble and Rogue.

Then I started thinking about the last series. Actually there aren’t many matching historical serials for those dates, but I did wonder why Space Babies and The Devil’s were released together: May 11th matches with Wheel in Space and Silver Nemesis. Two Cyberman serials.

Also The Planets of the Spiders. Really no idea there… accept PotS was a replacement for The Final Game, abandoned due to the untimely death of  Roger Delgado and which would have spelled the Master/Doctor relationship. In fact that portrait of The Master sounded very much like something beginning with ‘V’. Other elements were reworked into The End of Time. But the last three Masters, and indeed most of the rest of the Time Lords, now have major Cyberiad credentials.

And someone has the Master’s gnasher. Unless it’s Max Capricorn.

 

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@ps1l0v3y0u

The theory that a Ladydoc shouldn’t in anyway ape a ‘blokedoc’ is not necessarily unsound.

Whittaker is far too good an actor to fall into that particular trap, I think. Watching a selection of her predecessors might at least have given her a better idea of who and what the Doctor is, without her feeling any need to adopt specifically masculine traits. It might also have clued her up as to the role of the Doctor’s companions, although that would probably have been of limited help, lumbered as she was with the ‘fam’.  And don’t get me started on the subject of that disaster of a Tardis design and its restrictions with regard to group dynamics and interaction!

[WhoHar @whohar]

I didn’t comment on here about Chibnall’s / Whittaker’s Who run, mainly because I found it, in the main, to be witless, charmless and (often) senseless.

While I appreciate the show was attempting to move in a different direction (and this is potentially a good thing), and using lots of different writers, with more diverse representation both behind and in front of the camera. But, for me, this was generally performative rather than substantial.

I wrote on the Chibnall retrospective blog that it appeared that, once a female Doctor had been cast, Chibnall mentally went “OK, that’s done.” He never developed that side of the character, or put her Doctor into stories that would have built upon the gender change.

I also think Whittaker was not really Doctor material, I’m the same way I struggle with Peter Davison and early McCoy. (Baker, B. I didn’t watch so won’t comment). None of them, imo, had enough Doctoryness about them.

On top of that, a lot of bad decisions were made which compounded things: the Tardis set, the number of companions, dull stories, the non-use of old enemies in the first season and then the over-reliance on them later on. The Timeless Children.

TL;DR: the good ideas weren’t original and the original ideas weren’t good.

Not only was his entire tenure a missed opportunity, it also gave a small but vocal sub-section of “fans” a stick to beat the show with, allowing their dog whistle reviews and comments that still continue to this day.

But AG Who has been going on for so long now, that some drop off in quality was inevitable.

What I’d like to see next (and this is a pipe dream I know), is a short break and then a feature length story with Tilda Swinton as the Doctor.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@whohar. I like your wish list there. Last night son and I were talking about future Dr Who direction. He was less than impressed with the most recent episode. I proposed that it might be time to set up a kind of Writers Room rather than leaving the creative decisions entirely with one show runner so there is someone who can say, “RTD we love your writing but Space babies are not a great idea.”

I have loved this series thus far but don’t expect to enjoy the final two stories. I have never been a fan of RTD’s bigger better, “bangier” series endings. I think a year break might be good but am really hoping that Ncuti Gatwa stays on. He needs another series. Also having had a much needed break with the old “enemies” which were massively overused I think it is time for them to start making the odd appearance again. I also want to see Alfred Enoch make an appearance as Ian and Barbara’s grandson. Have just been watching something with him in and he reminds me a lot of Ian. For now that is my “wish list”. Oh and more episodes penned by Moffat and Christmas Specials. Sad that there won’t be one this year.

cheers

Janette

[WhoHar @whohar]

@janetteb

I think something needs to change and a Writers Room, or a showrunner who has not previously been involved in the show in any way would seem the best way forward.

Maybe a proper soft reboot, to enable much of the ditching of the restrictive back story / continuity.

I always thought it would be a nice idea to have the Doctor on the run from Gallifrey, wanted for some crime or other, and being pursued by the TL police. Constantly on the run, and helping people wherever he/she/they lands. Maybe with an season long arc to tie it together. Or a proper multi ep single story serial.

A grandson for Ian and Barbara? That would be a nice callback actually.

Tilda Doc lands on Earth and the grandson becomes her only companion. Works for me.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@everybody 🙂 Well we all seem to be broadly unanimous about Chibs’s tenure.

Re @ps1l0v3y0u ‘s comment ‘The theory that a Ladydoc shouldn’t in anyway ape a ‘blokedoc’ is not necessarily unsound.’ Decoding that (with respect, sometimes your comments are a little – cryptic or convoluted) – I agree – as far as that goes. Going further, each Doctor should be their own character. Ecclestone, Tennant, Smith, Capaldi were all perfectly distinct characters in themselves, they didn’t need to copy previous Doctors to appear ‘Doctorish.’ So in that respect, Whittaker shouldn’t ‘ape’ any previous Doctor. However, IMO Chibs carried that too far. Though the male Doctors I just named didn’t consciously copy their predecessors, they had all watched the show and were familiar with what a ‘Doctor’ would and wouldn’t do. A quality I can’t define but ‘I know it when I see it.’ And Whittaker hadn’t watched the show. I still think she was mis-cast but I’m sure being unfamiliar with previous Doctors minimised her chances of being credibly Doctor-ish. I guess we’ve all read of instances where actors have taken an interest in ‘protecting’ their recurring characters, as in ‘XX (my character) wouldn’t do that.’ I think it often helps to keep a series with episodes penned by various writers on the rails, much though it may annoy writers and directors, but again, Whittaker had no way of knowing what to ‘protect.’

@janetteb   I agree about RTD’s everything-but-the-kitchen-sink series endings. Sometimes bigger is not better. It gets too apocalyptic and actually diffuses the threat. It also makes the heroes’ position seem utterly hopeless (which is slightly depressing) and consequently detracts from the credibility of the final last-minute triumph.    Most of the episodes I remember as outstanding actually involved a few principal characters and a finite threat.

 

[WhoHar @whohar]

@dentarthurdent

Sometimes bigger is not better. It gets too apocalyptic and actually diffuses the threat

100% agree. Think back to last season’s denouement. All that death and destruction, the whole world gone. And the one heartstring pulled was when we saw that one woman in the desert.

[nerys @nerys]

@whohar I didn’t comment on here about Chibnall’s / Whittaker’s Who run, mainly because I found it, in the main, to be witless, charmless and (often) senseless.

This is the the most concise description of their run that I’ve ever come across, and it sums up my feelings perfectly.

And yet, what is so frustrating is that clearly, Chibnall had it in him to write a good episode. Exhibit A: “Eve of the Daleks” which, IMO, had all the wit and charm I’d come to expect from Doctor Who. It didn’t completely make sense … but then, Doctor Who rarely does. The whimsy, and the fact that the Doctor took charge, with timely support from her team of companions and friends, felt like Chibnall had finally got his mojo back. And then it all fell apart again. Such a disappointment.

Having seen Jodie Whittaker in Broadchurch, I am firmly convinced that, with better scripts, she would have made a marvelous Doctor. I believe she was let down by the writing, and by a lack of direction as to who the Doctor and her companions really were. It felt to me like a “too many cooks in the kitchen” problem, with the focus on trying to out-plot RTD and Moffat … at the expense of character development.

I was a little surprised at Jodie’s admission that Chibnall had advised her not to watch any previous Docs. Since she’d worked with David Tennant, I assumed that she’d at least watched parts of his run. I even felt that, early on, she was trying to mimic his manic style. So it wouldn’t surprise me to discover that she sneaked a peek at a few Tennant Doc episodes.

[Pufferfish @pufferfish]

Moscow Expels 6 British Diplomats Who Would Not Shut Up About ‘Doctor Who’

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

@pufferfish 😂🤣😂 please tell me that this article is not serious

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@pufferfish

lol

on a more serious note. The seventh son of a seventh son?? 7×7 is…!!

An Arthur Lee song…!

No! It is 49 no less. And 49 + 1963 = 2012. The Christmas ep 2012 was The Snowmen. Snow. Rain. Tears.

REG. In the scan. Rogue. Who is trapped in another Universe.

May 31st, this Saturday =

1. The War Games… still like that very much, what with the colourised reissue last year. Residents of Paradise Towers going off to War. Villengard cropping up all over.

2. Silence in the Library… Built by Mr Lux. Biggest data base for a really nifty VR you could possibly want. Just full of chicken eating microbes. But do they do digital?

And who lives in the Data Core, children?

Yes! Proper Dave!!

Oh, you know…

Can I stop scraping this barrel please?

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@pufferfish

Not sure about the Russian’s enthusiasm for Battlestar Galactica however. DS9 The Dominion War arc perhaps, especially Weyoun. Or as they call him… Marco!

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@devilishrobby

please tell me that this article is not serious

If in doubt, google The Onion 😉

@janetteb

I proposed that it might be time to set up a kind of Writers Room rather than leaving the creative decisions entirely with one show runner

I can see your point, and I know that this method has produced many highly successful American shows, but I have a feeling that it might not work so well with something as quirky and sui generis as Doctor Who. I suspect you would either end up with a bunch of writers, all of them passionate about the show, who would spend all their time arguing and debating  and never producing anything coherent, or with a group who would work smoothly together and produce something slick and professional but homogenised, lacking whatever spark is necessary to make the show what it is or can be at best.

In ancient Rome, when successful generals were honoured with a Triumph, they had someone standing behind them and whispering to them as they rode in procession, to remind them that they were no more than mortal. In the same way the answer might be to have just one assistant or co-editor with sufficient authority to advise and rein in  the show runner’s wilder ideas.  But then what do I know? My experience is mostly in writing academic reports and papers, not in creative script writing.

 

[WhoHar @whohar]

@nerys

Chibnall had it in him to write a good episode. Exhibit A: “Eve of the Daleks”

Yes. Eve, along with Diodati and Fugitive are, for me at least, the best three of the Chibnall run. Interestingly, two of those were co-written which tells its own tale.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@pufferfish @devilishrobby @mudlark
Yet more American interference in British institutions! First it was Trump and Musk, now it’s The Onion. How dare they!
(OK, to be serious for a moment, I got a good laugh out of it. Well done Onion.)

Actually, I think the full text of The Onion’s incvestigative journalism is worthy of reproduction here:
MOSCOW—Explaining that Russia’s patience on the matter had finally reached a breaking point, officials in Moscow confirmed Friday they had expelled six British diplomats who would not shut up about Doctor Who. “London must realize that their diplomats’ incessant jabbering about Time Lord physiology and whether Daleks or Cybermen are stronger can only go on so long before it requires a response,” a Kremlin spokesperson said via state media, adding with visible annoyance that whenever Russian officials had tried to discuss serious diplomatic issues with the six self-described Whovians, they would invariably steer the conversation back around to whether the worst Doctor had been Paul McGann or Colin Baker. “Even when we tried dosing them with nerve agent to get a little peace and quiet, these dorks would just keep on speculating about whether one TARDIS could canonically materialize inside of another TARDIS. With their expulsion, our message to the West is unequivocal: We do not care who the Doctor is. We do not care who the Master is. We absolutely do not care about whatever the fuck that big skin creature is. And so long as the Kremlin stands, we will never watch your dumb little TV show for children.” At press time, Moscow suggested that they would potentially readmit the diplomats if they got into some real sci-fi like Battlestar Galactica.

(Who was that ‘big skin creature’? Absorbaloff? A Slitheen? I don’t know.)

@nerys @whohar
I agree that Eve of the Daleks, Fugitive and Villa Diodati were well written.

Villa Diodati runs into one thing I’m a bit queasy about, incorporating real recent-historical figures into the story and often misrepresenting the actual facts as a consequence. Deodati runs into that, I suspect some of the behaviour of Byron and his associates was slanted, though I’m not sufficently expert to confirm that. Chibnall’s episodes were really prone to that, considering the number of recent historical figures that got written into the stories. Worst example (to me) was the one about Tesla though, it really screws around with the recorded facts of the ‘War of the Currents’ between Edison and Westinghouse, in which Tesla was an incidental player – and Westinghouse never got a mention.

Chibnall did have the ability to create some likeable (fictional) characters. Some of that may have been down to casting naturally sympathetic actors, but I think his character creation abilities were better than his dialogue or his plotting abilities.

Eve, and Fugitive, on the other hand, don’t do any violence to historical figures, so I’m fine by them in that respect. As Nerys said, Eve of the Daleks didn’t always make sense, BUT it was no worse than a typical Who episode. I think one had to be quite critical to find the inconsistencies and they were fairly easy to ignore – as in most Who episodes. I don’t think Chibs ever wrote an episode as chock-full of blatant impossibilities as Kill The Moon.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@dentarthurdent @nerys

the behaviour of Byron and his associates was slanted

There was a part where Byron hid in fear behind one of the other, female(?), characters and it really jarred with me. IRL Byron (Mad, Bad and Dangerous to know, per the famous quote) saw some military service in the Greek war of independence from the Ottoman Empire, so hardly the coward he was portrayed in Diodati.

Re: Tesla, I agree that altering historical facts to fit a story is antithetical to what Who should be. But Tesla is arguably a more interesting character than Edison or Westinghouse so, while it was a good choice to focus on him, they should have written a story riffing on his inventive side; then again, that’s been done already in The Prestige.

[Pufferfish @pufferfish]

My favourite Onion headline will always be:
‘37 Record-Store Clerks Feared Dead In Yo La Tengo Concert Disaster’

…which shows my age, just a bit!

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent

perhaps ‘the idea, that a Ladydoc shouldn’t be blokey, might work’ would be better.

Different docs? ie Docs that ‘work’… If 1&2 defined the character, 3 was the first ‘constructed’ doc: stuck on Earth, gimmicky, comes with private army and bete noir. 4 is iconic but he was actually made by Holmes/Hinchcliffe… and he went on too long.

Then you’re into JNT territory. 3 more constructed docs. Davison, the best actor of the lot, was saddled with multiple conflicting and heavy handed production decisions, including the first (accidental) Fam. That is, Nyssa would have been much happier as an android.

6 could never cancel out the assault of The Myrka let alone that on Peri. Actually I thought the contrast with the Gary Sue isms of Buck Rogers was quite entertaining. But I’m a silly twisted boy.

7 recovered well from a disastrous start, with better script’s commissioned by Cartmel, but Sylvester couldn’t escape The Grade.

Effectively, in terms of the arc, 9 and 10 are the same doc. Ecclestone could be startling hostile. Loved it. Very sad that he didn’t like the gig. 10 made new who. Presumably the unscheduled change meant they had to make him estuary. Did I read somewhere that Smith ‘invented’ 11 at the audition? Moffat must have told Capaldi ‘I want Malcolm Tucker, but less sweary, in space. That should be fun!’ Not sure The Corporation agreed.

Did Chib ‘parachute’ Whittaker in? More so than 10 or 12?? Moffat’s script read-throughs were 0ften broadcast on the accompanying ‘confidentials’ with lots of improv which was probably what made the scripts sparkle. Is just my ignorance or was there less or none of that in the Chib tenure? Or none?

Sorry, I thought our favourite scratching post had taken enough punishment, but maybe not.

[Pufferfish @pufferfish]

Well, I loved when Whittaker was cast because she is tremendous in Attack the Block and her debut (Venus) proved she could hold her own amongst beloved skilled chewers of scenery. I thought she would nail it as the Doctor based on both of those things but to not research previous Doctors a bit when your episodes feature montages of your predecessors is… strange advice.

I’m getting annoyed by predecessor montages in this series run, just because there’s less time/fewer episodes to tell the story.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@whohar I have no objection to the episode focussing on Tesla. But suggesting that the competition of AC vs DC was between Tesla and Edison, as the episode goes out of its way to imply, is wildly misrepresenting the reality. The principal players in the ‘War of the Currents’ were Edison and Westinghouse (the Wikipedia article, a detailed account which runs to many pages, mentions Tesla just twice in the text). In fact George Westinghouse bought Tesla’s patents (among many others). It is in fact a fascinating story, but possibbly too complicated and mundane to make a good Who episode 🙂

@ps1l0v3y0u I was just using the example of the nuWho docs, i.e. the ones I know about, for checking previous incarnations. I’m not so familiar with the BG ones (though obviously I know who they are).
Whether the script read-throughs helped Moff to sharpen the dialogue, I don’t know. (I genuinely don’t know, I’m not being cynical about it). But either way, I think Moff had a gift for engaging dialogue. I think my favourite passage in all of Who is the Doctor’s verbal fencing match with Ohila (of the Sisters of Karn) in the prologue to Magician’s Apprentice:

OHILA: He has asked to see you. His servants seek you everywhere. Will you go?
DOCTOR: No.
OHILA: Why do you always lie?
DOCTOR: Why do you always assume I’m lying?
OHILA: It saves time. The truth – will you go?
DOCTOR: No.
OHILA: When?
DOCTOR: Soon.
OHILA: Why? Did something happen?
DOCTOR: No.
OHILA: Was it recent?
DOCTOR: Yes.
OHILA: Whatever it was, you owe that creature nothing.
DOCTOR: He and I’ve known each other a long time.
OHILA: You’ve been enemies for all of it.
DOCTOR: An enemy’s just a friend you don’t really know yet. Sorry. What, was that me being cynical again?
OHILA: Aren’t we friends, Doctor?
DOCTOR: That’s different. I don’t like you!

I love the way the Doc lies continuously and Ohila just cuts straight through his lies, without animosity.

 

[ScaryB @scaryb]

Just dropping in to wish everyone an enjoyable finale, and may all your favourite theories come true!

I’m looking forward to watching both this week’s, and Wish World as a double bill in my local cinema. Anyone else?

Cheers… here’s some cocktail suggestions to oil the bonkerising bits of the brain 🙂

 

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent

Ohila/12… great example. But! Ohila… would the actor be there for the read? She might be. I dunno.

Hypothesis:

1. Lots of modern drama relies on semi improv work. You get better thesps on board too.

2. Moff is genius with dialogue. With dialogue (like wings) you can fly! Not to be confused with pointless  worthy dialogue that the poor hams have to chew to death. ie you really do need ambition. My personal favourites.

3. Moff likes to work with good actors who spark back… and he’s a genius because… hey, he lets this stuff happen. He’s confident. The BBC love the show. He controls the might of Cartmel 1.0, RTD1 weird and wonderful and maybe the Cartmel 2.0 that was foretold (by me)

4. Chib was told to stay well clear of all that. That is death by nasty crit and sekjen, that is. Not doing that again.

Oh. Could I make it ‘Broadchurch’ in space? A series of Intergalactic Moiders with conflicted cardboard cutouts (my fav. Pretty please?)

No? Er… what about a soap opera with unrelated (non threatening) stories (but they don’t notice that stuff in a soap) with multiple quite boring characters. Better… maybe…

Make it as dumb as Marvel with ridiculous mooks and villains!

Hmmm. Yes. Best.

Aside… don’t you hate it when actors read your lines and take your money but actually that is ALL they’re doing? Why can’t we own their soul, like all the other wage slaves?

And there you have it!

Sorry ranting again. Time for a lie down.

[Author]

Posts