The Zygon Invasion

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  • #46144
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus @mersey golly, that was an epic ramble, Mersey, I hope you understand I was just giving my particular opinion knowing how deeply my father felt about these issues -nonetheless, he despised liberalism and thought that with every vote of my own, I was “bringing Australia closer to socialism but don’t worry, when you settle down and have kids you’ll stop being so ‘leftie’ and you’ll end up loving and espousing capitalism as we do. It has saved us all.”

    Grr. Vomit.

    As a teen, I would rebel and carry on with radical posters in my bedroom attending every protest and wearing some abomination of a T-shirt to my first vote when I turned 18 -my neighbour even threw a party (he was a member of the Young Socialists) -but remember my mention of the rightwing editorialist in the post above? That was the same neighbour turning 180 degrees and going from radical to ‘rightie’ in under 10 years. He loved what capitalism had done you see and he discovered, to his surprise, that he liked having money in his pocket! And promptly bought a Volvo and told everyone about it. Very odd. And such a shame. My parents wanted me to marry him. Girl next door-type thing.

    Thank goodness that never happened -occasionally during parties – when I see him (and hear him wailing on predictably about the Left) I drift over to the piano and start playing Pink Floyd and end up tinkering and tinkling with various ‘battle hymns’ to annoy him!

    @arbutus I’m glad you enjoyed the show. What did the Arbutus family make of it? Particularly the younger one?

    I’m with you on the Spice cupboard -what I can’t grow (but my chillies are, for once, doing well) I buy and they do last, don’t they? I don’t have access to many bagels in Brisbane -maybe 2 flavours or types and that’s it.

    We buy ones with poppy seeds and serve them with smoked salmon, soft cheese and alfalfa. It’s quite refreshing in the Summer with some avocado and a squirt of lemon or lime. So, you know, if you find any over at the pub! @sirclockface I think that’s an interesting theory -good bonkerising indeed!

    I wasn’t sure who was who when it came to Kate but I also theorise that her going with no backup had to be a ‘clever’ set up surely. Even at the time, I was “wha?” and then promptly forgot as I was taken by the extraordinary production values in this. On the big telly it was so magnificent -and ripping quickly between one scene and another kept the pace quite frantic.

    I’m not sure, above, who said this, but there was allusion to it being a bit slow and this was due to the advertisements? I keep forgetting that, for most of the world, it’s exactly how you see it!

    For now, on our ABC, there’s no ads between shows: so we get 50 ‘undamaged’ minutes which really helps otherwise I don’t think I could bear it. Still, on re-watch I have to use the ABC’s website where I can get the necessary subtitles -not for PC, he’s perfect but other cast members -like the soldiers, not so.

    #46145
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    The imperative of the politics of the story are that those of the elite who appear to be traitors or incompetents must in fact be competent patriots.  If one considers Osgood in isolation, it would appear she blundered by first hoarding critical information, going off reservation, then being captured by the younger Zygons.  And she was showing fear hiding under a desk.

    So everything we think about her must be wrong lest what she is, a cosplaying asthmatic woman scientist, be seen as wrong and evil.  She must instead be a prime instigator.  The two Osgoods I speculate must have realized in the long-run it was impossible for humans and Zygons to live in peace if one side, the Zygons, had the ability to almost flawlessly imitate the other side and infiltrate at will.  So they took some hints from what Harry Sullivan must have been working on and did a variant, one that strips the Zygons of their ability to imitate and leaves them in their native form.  But they have no right to impose this on the Zygons.  It must be the Zygons’ choice.

    So when one Osgood was killed this was the time for the remaining one to bait the trap.   She only pretended to go crazy and flee for Truth or Consequences, New Mexico, the hub of the rebel younger Zygon movement.  She had herself brainwashed so that if someone were to break her in interrogation, she would appear to spill information that would enable the younger Zygons to defeat UNIT and conquer the world.

    This is a very old plot that as I have pointed out was used in the original pilot episode for Hawaii Five-Oh  several decades ago, where Steve McGarrett had himself brainwashed with false information so that Wo Fat would believe it to be true when he broke McGarrett in Wo Fat’s sensory isolation tank.

    Now the younger rebel Zygons believe when they activate whatever Osgood pretended to have as this super-weapon they will get what they dream, the ability to live in the open as Zygons.  And so they shall.  It is what they have asked in their manifestos.  But it will not be what they expect, only what they deserve.  And it will be their choice.

    #46146
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @purofilion    Nicely said. I have been embarrassed to admit that I didn’t catch the significance of the Zygon symbol, because I don’t get most of my news in a visual way (i.e. TV or video) and had never seen the Islamic State flag. I have now looked it up, and of course, the connection is instant and obvious. Obviously, this was deliberate, along with the references to splinter groups and so on, to draw an obvious connection for young people watching. Because I really doubt that an episode of DW who is going to change most adult minds about these issues. But our kids, whose viewpoints are so heavily influenced by peer mentality and information of dubious exactitude, could be made to think twice about some of what they are hearing when shown a parable of this sort.

    It’s great that your son made that connection, and in a pretty sophisticated way, because of course, the question is, who shapes the narrative that defines people as good or evil? UNIT is ready to go to war because for them, the narrative is one of invasion. The Doctor sees a different story, of a disaffected minority trying to stir up trouble. I hope that, next week, we will hear more from Osgood, because as the hybrid, her perception is unique (at least, in the Zygon context!). This directly recalls the Doctor’s viewpoint in The Hungry Earth (I think it was) where he was seeing the Silurians as beings with a valid point of view, who could and should be parleyed with, not fought.

    #46147
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    For Tarot card followers, this might be the moment for the card of The Devil:

    http://www.tarotlore.com/tarot-cards/the-devil/

    Osgood might be The Devil tempting the younger rebel Zygons with a choice that will give them what they claim to want.

     

    #46149
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus

    Ah yes, I recall the Doctor in Cold Blood saying “oh come on, is this the best you can be? Be the best.”

    I remember the injured Silurian stating who, exactly, it would be, who would attempt to kill her and I was so angry. Because I think we all knew: the mother of the abducted child who had also lost her husband.

    I believe a lot of Smith’s era highlighted the idea of humanity being “better” and more evolved in our thinking, not at all something to ignore. I also agree with your words, “of dubious exactitude” which, surely, is the rubbish I hear being peddled by the parents of Boy Ilion’s friends, who believe exactly what those “dubious” morning shows with their 2 minutes of news have to say. And they’re peddling lies -all the time.

    And yet these parents, doctors, lawyers, bankers (and rich concreters) can seemingly pay $200 000 for two years of education which I know (as I worked in these particular schools) is defined only by their resources and class sizes (and even the latter is often perilous) -mostly the teachers are the same  -they have far less to do as the class members are of similar economic position and culture and so the Heads of Dept don’t need to redefine the curriculum with any particular or proper emphasis.

    I think the state schools, in their new curriculum rely on teachers being knowledgeable enough about the current political situation to sew it into the History/ Social Studies and Geography lesson planning on an informal level. It’s quite worrying too, to hear some of the views expressed by the ‘louder’ white elements who abruptly say, in front of the new immigrants and students that “these people, they need to get back in queue and come back in here the right way or else end up in asylums you know, miss? That’s what Dad thinks and I agree.”

    Usually, there’s an-almost fist fight at this point where the other ‘loud’ and rebellious (in a good way!) children start to contribute, espousing more moderate and tolerant views and I find, to my relief, that in state schools, at least, these opinions are the ones more usually held.

    And, boy, do I say a silent prayer and thank those parents who teach their children to look deeper into the news, read the more informative papers and have meals around the table at night (what a shock) where discussion takes place.

    I find it interesting that the children in the more expensive schools are out almost every night. Couple that with 2 or 3 children and there’s no one at home anymore to have a ‘traditional’ dinner where discussions of this type can occur, which rectify unusual or inappropriate ideas or just bald-wrong ‘facts’. At least in my day (oh, yes, I am so ‘old and so wise’ – see my faux pas at The Fox Inn!) we were never so busy that meals at the table could be ignored. And there, we talked and talked and debated -things became quite hot, a lot of the time, as I grew older but I’ll remember those times and hope that Boy Ilion, despite my illness, can remember his own experiences around the table.

    He was at a friend’s home the other night (mother=lawyer, father=partner) and dinner at the dining table with the 4 boys is once a week and they bring their iPads and iPods to the table because Dad does! Boy Ilion was weirded out. Everyone was smiling to themselves, tweeting rubbish and eating without realising it? He said he never felt so disassociated!  And yet, they have piles of money, a dining table the size of a continent and a 7 bedroom home with play rooms for each child and God- only- knows- what, and yet, what of it?

    Where’s the civilized conversation? The glorious play and the great debates?

    Maybe these episodes in Who, are for some families, the only way to introduce this type of absolutely ‘must have’ conversation. In the ’80s, PM Keating said “this is the recession we had to have”.

    Well, I’d say “this is the episode that we had to have”. And it being Peter Harness, responsible for Kill the Moon (not my favourite episode by far!) means he’s going to receive even more negative press. But so be it.

    If they’re shooting at you, you’re doing something right.

    #46153
    lisa @lisa

    We have a Zygon invasion ‘nightmare’ scenario and in the last episode we had
    the Knightmare highway man.

    Secondly, when Bonnie/Clara was trying to get the UNIT soldiers to shoot the pods it
    reminded me quite a lot of Missy trying to get the Doctor to shoot Dalek/Clara.

    Thirdly, who leaves 127 messages? To my mind that shows a lot of paranoia too?

    So some paranoia and a dark nightmare situation possibly used in an attempt to manipulate
    murder at the end of this season? But all this in a family show sort of way.

    @missy My patience is running painfully thin too so I might have to follow you to Amazon

    #46154
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @purofilion: How about this symmetry:  In Kill the Moon, Peter Harness has the Doctor test humans with Clara their representative having to make a critical life-or-death decision about another species, a morality test for the worthiness of humans.  In his Zygon serial this season, perhaps Harness is showing the Zygon version of Clara having to make a critical decision involving how Zygons will live with humans, a morality test for Zygons.  Or perhaps in another direction, perhaps in the Zygon serial, humans through Osgood will show their independence from the Doctor, with Osgood taking the role of The Devil to tempt the younger Zygons to try and steal and use the secrets of her box.

    #46156
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @purofilion    If they’re shooting at you, you’re doing something right.

    Absolutely true. And, I might add, if Boy Ilion is confused by the family dinner complete with internet, then you are most definitely doing something right!  🙂

    You know, it occurs to me that the callback to Day of the Doctor is also recalling Clara as she was then. Back with Eleven, post Time Stream but pre Danny, before her struggles in Series 8, before the oh-so-confident Clara that she has became. I remember her seeming so much younger, more innocent. I think it’s kudos to Jenna Coleman that her portrayal has gained so much depth and maturity, as Clara herself must have done through all those experiences.

    #46157
    Anonymous @

    @jphamlore

    or perhaps Clara will be the devil?

    The red Zygon ‘glow’ the DP put into those scenes where she looks positively evil is quite prophetic? Though not enough purple? It’s purple that’s bad -hence Missy dressed in such colours usually.

    But I like your morality test idea -a true hybrid then?

    However, I’m confused about the box -if it’s an Osterhagen type thing then surely neither Osgood would agree? -that’s effectively what you were saying. So, to summarise, you think the box that the Osgood’s point to is not destructive? It’s a reveal box so that the Zygons must look like they are -walking and talking as Zygons? That’ll go down superb because frankly they stink, are huge and have suckers….no matter the damn message I wouldn’t want them on my street 🙂 Not without a serious makeover involving tummy tucks, liposuction and lots of Dior or Brut!

    @arbutus oh I agree, she has become so much more mature. She uses her eyes (enormous as they are) and doesn’t flap her head around like she used to. She did talk so fast that subtitles were the only option once the DVD came out. Now, there’s a lower tonal presence to her voice -possibly echoing Capaldi’s own. I loved Smith and I loved Clara but I did find when both were nattering in the way of some (ahem) sisters -in- law of mine in Brentwood, Essex, that it became almost unbearable at times!

    We love the older, the wiser, the mature. Yay for Peter! 🙂 Even if doing Who has aged him somewhat. I find his hoodie President Funkenstein and Doctor Disco persona absolutely wonderful. There was a time when even Doctor Tom Baker took himself far too seriously -never mind Pertwee, although we might have had a new member recently who thought that this was what the Doctor (set in aspic) should be, when really, you’d think wisdom and age provides one thing for sure: a radical sense……of humour and knowing when to poke fun at oneself – Tommy Cooper style, if necessary. And even when unnecessary :=]

    #46158
    Anonymous @

    It’s interesting that the ‘left over’ bits of human in ‘tumbleweed’ had the colour of death -purple electricity running thru it

    #46159
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    I appear to have picked up a nasty chest cold so I might be lurching around having odd thoughts. My temperature is all over the place and I have that ‘bloaty head’ syndrome.

    Just a random thought on the Flag, the iconography does resemble ISIS, but the content is a three fingered Zygon hand with a sucker in the middle. It did bring back memories of the ‘Hand Mines’ in a way that’s been bugging me.

    Finally worked out what it wás and, coincidence or not I quite like this thought that they are both ‘hands that harm’. Top marks if you get the reference mid reading.

    “Not to go on all-fours; that is the Law. Are we not Men? “Not to suck up Drink; that is the Law. Are we not Men? “Not to eat Fish or Flesh; that is the Law. Are we not Men? “Not to claw the Bark of Trees; that is the Law. Are we not Men? “Not to chase other Men; that is the Law. Are we not Men?”

    “His is the House of Pain. “His is the Hand that makes. “His is the Hand that wounds. “His is the Hand that heals.”

    “His is the lightning flash,” we sang. “His is the deep, salt sea.”

    “His are the stars in the sky.”

    It’s the rule of law given to his hybrid creations by Doctor Moreau in HG Wells Island of Doctor Moreau. Playing god. Interesting that the Doctor used his hand to transfer regeneration energy to Davros. His is the Hand that heals. But is it also the Hand that makes and another Hand that wounds?

    #46160
    Anonymous @

    Rewatched. Some questions on Zygon Bonnie’s motivations.
    – Why does she direct Kate to New Mexico? Yes, there’s a trap for her there, but surely there would’ve been ample oppurtunities to steal her identity or kill her in London or Turmezistan, as seen with the other characters.
    – She directs Jac and UNIT to the Zygon lair. I suppose the reason for this is to get the London troops in one place, a trap, to kill them, which works out in the episode but realistically it’s not like they’d send every soldier they had or like Jac is the only civilian on staff.
    – She directs UNIT to destroy the pods containing the originals. Under the new rules they’re presumably not needed, but the act is unnecessary, and you’d think it would ruin the trap, as the soldiers would be ready and firing when the Zygons appeared. As someone said above, this echoes Missy attempting to make the Doctor kill Dalek Clara- so is this just sadism, toying with the enemy on Bonnie’s part, for more character depth?
    – She also ruins the above plan by uncovering the original Clara. If that was unintentional, it was a poor coincidence on her part. If it was intentional… I suppose that just extends the sadism, because presumably she knew that they would never destroy the pods (making this an ever closer analogue to Missy/Doctor/Dalek Clara), and just wanted to experience Jac and the troops’ brief moment of horror before they died.

    Something else. When a Zygon takes the form of a human, they clearly have access to their personality and all their memories. Now that they are able to take the form of a person from someone’s memory, then logically their impersonation is of the person as that someone knows them. So, why does the advice “she’s a copy, ask her something only your real mum could know” hold? The impersonation comes from his memory of his mother, so anything he knows, including date of birth and teddy bear names, surely the Zygon impersonation must know.

    For what it’s worth, I think this Osgood is indeed human, given her reaction to the Doctor stating as such, even if it was based on a false premise.

    Also, I enjoy the Doctor’s hoodie-jacket this episode, red-lined like his original jacket.

    #46161
    geoffers @geoffers

    i just had a thought, completely contrary to my previous thought, about what might be in the box…

    what if the doctor found a way to make a zygon shape-shift PermanenT? (sort of like how he managed to stabilize the rebel flesh?) maybe those zygons who wish to live on earth, peacefully, will be given the option of being assimilated, and human in every way… except their origins? the zygon-osgood apparently didn’t mind always being in “human mode.”

    hmmm…

    #46163

    @ichabod @bluesqueakpip @purofilion

    And given that right now it is comedians – on the stand-up circuit and people like John Stewart and John Oliver – have spend the last 7 or 8 years doing the job that journalists have totally failed to do, it is even more justified.

    #46167
    Anonymous @

    @supernumerary

    Good points: but I think that it was stated that the Human was kept only if more information was needed from them -so this then implies the zygons do need some (occasional) information from the human hosts -hence the soldier and the Colonel would be right in assuming the Zygon wouldn’t know everything -a lot but not all.

    I thought, as Clara Human was in a pod, Clara Zygon definitely wanted the pods destroyed -then there’s no way to retrieve Clara (or any other pod humans). Clearly Clara Zygon did have all the information she wanted (which probably isn’t much when it’s Consequences time!). Clara Zygon would also know the real Clara’s connection to the Doctor and with Clara Human ‘down’ it would make ‘finishing’ off the Doctor so much easier.

    But yes, as a Splinter Group, a certain amount of terror for terror’s sake would be all the more delicious I suppose. But I did think Clara Zygon deliberately lured Jac down to the tunnels after  popping home to retrieve a few “things.” There she can kill the second in command knowing that Kate will be tumbleweeded in less than a day (or neutralised  -but I think tumbleweeded is a lot better) and the UK and Mexico is “theirs.”

    #46168
    SirClockFace @sirclockface

    The doctor called himself ‘dr funkenstein’ much like dr frankenstein and mis monster except the doctor’s monster being the hybrid?

    @pedant In the 50th the doctor made all humans in the room have a zygon duplicate. Clara was in the room…

    #46169
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    Just a thought that popped into my head: When CapDoc is giving out instructions on where to go, he refers to himself in 3rd person. I think that’s the hint that he is a Zygon version that we needed. I can’t remember him ever referring to himself in that way

    #46170
    django @django

    @starla

    I agree, Clara was switched when she went into the little boys flat. However, I suspect her place was taken by the boy & it’s Clara ‘s body that’s being carried off, not the childs.

    #46171
    django @django

    @lisa

    To be fair, we’re not told he left 127 messages. What they say is that Clara had 127 missed calls.

    #46173
    DrBen @drben

    And now for the ramblings of Dr Ben, in no particular order:

    I agree with those who say that the message and symbolism were laid on a bit thick.  Not because I disagree with the message, or because I think such political issues are inappropriate for DW, but rather because I found myself being pulled out of the drama and instead playing a game of “spot the reference” (that is, identifying each line or plot point that is a direct parallel to something in our current xenophobic crisis).  The hostage videos, the “splinter group”, the “radicalization”, the fact that they’re more difficult to kill when they look like us, the downing of an airplane with an anti-aircraft weapon, etc.  We had to pause a lot to explain to the 12-year-old that this is stuff that is really happening in the world right now.

    That said, I think they missed an opportunity that would have been nice.  They mention that the “bad” Zygons are a small group, and most want to live in peace, but I think it would’ve been nice to show that — maybe include a “good” Zygon character who is trying to assimilate, and is caught up in negative sentiment against Zygons in general.  (Although, given the current theorizing, it could well be that one or more of the characters we’ve already met is a good Zygon in disguise.)

    Honestly, I tend to find the modern UNIT episodes a bit hard to follow, perhaps because I keep getting distracted by how inept they seem for a huge covert international organization.  This season in particular, they’ve seemed incapable of getting anything right, and I still don’t understand why they would grant any authority to Clara, who is (at most) the Doctor’s pal.  This one was a bit confusing because the action was happening on three different fronts in three different countries, which didn’t seem to be adequately explained.  (Drawing a line from the phrase “truth or consequences” to the actual NM town seemed a bit of a stretch.)

    The 127 missed calls didn’t strike me as suspicious.  I imagine that the Doctor (lacking social graces) is the type who would simply call over and over until you pick up, so I figured that those 127 missed calls happened just during the time Clara was on the motorcycle from work to home.

    I liked the episode overall, and I’m interested to see how they wrap it up next week.  Osgood was well handled – I like that her character is being taken more seriously.  And the question marks were a hoot.  The two Osgoods, representing the peace process itself, reminded me of Tom Robbins’ “Skinny Legs and All”, in which one of the big points is that the Israelis and the Palestinians have ancestors (and gods) in common, and are basically two sides of the same coin.

    Regarding the Tarot: I kept thinking of the Wheel of Fortune card which, to me, is often about duality.  On opposite sides of the wheel are light and dark, good and evil, man and woman, etc.  Depending on the spin of the wheel, you never know what you will get in a particular moment.

    #46177
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Still loving this episode–and, in part, because the message was laid on a bit thick (sorry, @drben).

    But in terms of story-telling, there is something that has been nagging at me, and makes me wonder if there is something we have all missed–or misinterpreted.

    It is when Clara (so we assume) goes back down under the city with Jac and the UNIT reinforcements. Then Clara seems to reveal herself as evil Zygon Clara/Bonnie. And then (and this is the point that has me perplexed) she says “Kill the traitors”. But in what sense are the UNIT soldiers and human Jac traitors? Traitors to who? If she said “kill the enemy” it would have sounded more logical.

    My memory of the scene is that after seemingly evil Zygon Clara/Bonnie says this, we hear the sounds of mayhem, but do not see the aftermath of a massacre (I might be wrong, though–I would have to re-watch). We assume that Jac and the soldiers are all killed. But are they? It does seem like a rather brutal end to Jac in particular, whom we have known since “The Day of the Doctor”. Surely her sin of being middle-aged does not warrant a summary dispatch (I, in particular, hope not!). So, could it be that the scene we thought we saw was, in fact something with quite a different resolution?

    Damm it! I told Mrs Blenkinsop that I was going to work on something quite different today, but clearly I am going to end up re-watching the episode!

    #46181
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @blenkinsopthebrave      I am also settling in for a rewatch this morning (I will try to do the ironing simultaneously, which sort of works!). That scene is one of the bits that I want to recheck as well, because I agree with you that I’m not convinced that Jac and the others are dead. Ditto for Kate.

    I’m not quite sure about the whole business about not needing to keep the humans alive. Because we just don’t know how true that is. Osgood could simply have made it up, to try and keep alive the question of which sister she is. (Interesting that she wears the Doctor’s old question marks, given her new status as Osgood Who.

    By the way, I loved that conversation between the Doctor and Osgood. There was a lovely calm feeling to it, and the Doctor looked very pleased in an understated kind of way. I begin to get the feeling that, although Twelve is different from the much more flirty Eleven, he is not above a bit of a flirt with those he likes. Question mark underpants????   🙂   I’m beginning to wonder if Zygon hybrid Osgood might not be about to travel with the Doctor for a bit!

    #46182

    @sirclockface

    Nah, Moffat’s had this story brewing since before the 50th and if there was a Clara switcheroo it would need to be properly foreshadowed. And Clara wasn’t in the room when the Zygons and Humans came together, but in the Tardis and on Gallifrey (or rather in the painting). She came in with the Doctors.

    #46185
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @blenkinsopthebrave: As I have been speculating, the only way to preserve the political message is to have what appear to be incompetent elites actually be competent.  The adult Zygon leaders claimed they had a plan to control the situation.  I am assuming they do.

    It might all a fake.  Fake UNIT UK headquarters.  Fake UNIT Jac and soldiers.  (They’re Zygons.)  Maybe a fake President of the World plane and a fake Doctor.  Mommy Kate Stewart Zygon is going to teach those uppity kids a good hard lesson.

    #46186
    Kharis @kharis

    Haven’t had a chance to read anything on this thread yet, and I just got around to watching the episode early this morning.  Halloween is a big deal where I live and I was distracted by getting my mini Dalek and mini 11th Doctor out the door for trick or treat.  (:

    Appreciate the theme of the episode, but could not connect to it.

    My problem is with the characterization of the Doctor and Clara.  It just didn’t feel like them, the way Harry Potter Movie #4 didn’t feel like Hogwarts and the characters seemed flat and distant.  It was also highly predictable, like the police woman and Clara Zygons.  This is random, but also not a fan of Clara’s outfit or lipstick, also seemed out of character.  It was well written, and I am on the side of the message, but it had that disconnect, much like Harry Potter #4 where you left the theater thinking that the characters may have been called Dumbledore, Harry and Hermione, but it didn’t FEEL like them, Hogwarts didn’t feel magical and the story never held you.    This episode left me in a similar way; there were no visceral moments, no “ah ha” moments and I was never drawn in.  I liked it, because it was Doctor Who, plus one of my favorite Doctors, but it was “meh” for the most part, especially after the kick off of the episodes that proceeded it.

    On the positive, I am on board with the message, and many props for Doctor Who having the courage to out our human madness.   The Dali Lama sums it up well:
    The Reality of War
    “Of course, war and the large military establishments are the greatest sources of violence in the world. Whether their purpose is defensive or offensive, these vast powerful organizations exist solely to kill human beings. We should think carefully about the reality of war. Most of us have been conditioned to regard military combat as exciting and glamorous – an opportunity for men to prove their competence and courage. Since armies are legal, we feel that war is acceptable; in general, nobody feels that war is criminal or that accepting it is criminal attitude. In fact, we have been brainwashed. War is neither glamorous nor attractive. It is monstrous. Its very nature is one of tragedy and suffering.

    War is like a fire in the human community, one whose fuel is living beings. I find this analogy especially appropriate and useful. Modern warfare waged primarily with different forms of fire, but we are so conditioned to see it as thrilling that we talk about this or that marvelous weapon as a remarkable piece of technology without remembering that, if it is actually used, it will burn living people. War also strongly resembles a fire in the way it spreads. If one area gets weak, the commanding officer sends in reinforcements. This is throwing live people onto a fire. But because we have been brainwashed to think this way, we do not consider the suffering of individual soldiers. No soldiers want to be wounded or die. None of his loved ones wants any harm to come to him. If one soldier is killed, or maimed for life, at least another five or ten people – his relatives and friends – suffer as well. We should all be horrified by the extent of this tragedy, but we are too confused.”  – Dali Lama

    </div>

    #46187
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Well, after a re-watch, I am, predictably, still confused. In the scene in question, we do see the aftermath–a couple of glowing furry indicators of death and a couple of zygons walking off, as zygon Clara/Bonnie stares meaningfully at Clara-in-pod. But what have we seen? Here is one alternate reading of the scene:

    We know that there are zygon factions–including one that wants to break the truce and take the planet and one that wants to keep the peace intact. Clara may well have a zygon duplicate, but why should we assume it is a radicalised anti-human zygon? Perhaps her duplicate is a zygon who wants to maintain the truce, and is as determined to oppose the radicalised zygons as Kate Lethbridge-Stewart is.

    If so, then the scene in question, particularly her command to “kill the traitors” plays out in a very different way.

    As Colonel Walsh has pointed out, there is no way of telling who is who. The UNIT soldiers that follow Clara and Jac down under the city might be UNIT soldiers, but then again…

    I am loving this two-parter even more!

    @arbutus. Enjoy the ironing–I really should be doing something as useful myself.

     

    #46188
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @jphamlore

    the only way to preserve the political message is to have what appear to be incompetent elites actually be competent.  The adult Zygon leaders claimed they had a plan to control the situation.  I am assuming they do.

    Yes, I had forgotten your earlier post saying that. Excellent point.

    #46192
    lisa @lisa

    @blenkinsopthebrave Bummer if its only 1-6 ! I haven’t pulled up the Amazon yet.

    @arbutus You are right about Osgood’s question mark shirt because as you say
    which one? She’s a really great mystery now! I like that about her!

    Why do I recall something someone said someplace about this series being about
    Clara and the Doctor gallivanting across the universe and having glory days?
    Was that 1 of the SM comments?

    The Doctor took the plane because if he is a Zygon copy then the real Doctor
    wouldn’t grant access to the Tardis to an imposter. The Zygon does have
    a pair of sunglasses but not sure if they are sonic. Also, when he refers to himself
    as Dr. Funkinstein and the Disco Doctor and I think it’s the Zygon sense of humor? 🙂

    #46194
    Kharis @kharis

    @lisa Good point about referencing himself as Dr. Funkinstein and the Disco Doctor.  This would makes sense of my feelings that Clara and the Doctor didn’t really seem like Clara and Doctor.

    #46195
    lisa @lisa

    @kharis That’s a great Dali Lama quote! What sort of science? Maybe get into the
    special effects dept?

    @blenkisopthebrave Zygon Clara lets the UNIT team die. So they were
    likely human since the Unit investigator named Jac was a human.
    BTW – what ever happened to Malcolm? I like his charecter as a UNIT scientist

    #46196
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @kharis

    War is neither glamorous nor attractive. It is monstrous.

    As a pacifist and the daughter of pacifists I concur wholeheartedly. I find it hard to understand how even in these days, when the immediacy of television reporting and the internet make it difficult to ignore the reality, war can still be glamorised and the soldiers who are casualties of war sentimentalised – never mind that they were most of them ordinary people who enlisted for practical reasons, and that the ’cause’ they died or were maimed in may have been wholly unjustified and venal.  I forget off hand who it was who said that war was politics carried on by other means.  As far as I am concerned, war is always the mark of abject failure on the part of politicians and the diplomats whom they appoint.

    Of course it isn’t just the aggressive instincts inherent in mankind and social conditioning which encourages people to view war as an acceptable way of dealing with problems; there are huge vested interests which keep the juggernaut rolling (don’t get me started on Trident), but really this is a subject for discussion in the pub.

     

    #46197
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @lisa

    Bummer if its only 1-6 ! I haven’t pulled up the Amazon yet.

    I have given this a lot of thought, but I have no idea what you are referring to! Was this intended for someone else perhaps?

    Re: zygon Clara, there is nothing in the scene as shown that confirms she let the UNIT team die. It could have played out very differently. And there is nothing to confirm the UNIT soldiers are not zygons. The entire scene and everyone in it might have been zygon v. zygon.

    #46198
    misterhoo @misterhoo

    Here is my first bonkers theory. There is no Clara Oswald. Let’s go back to the Doctor’s explanation of the bootstrap paradox and Beethoven. Instead the time traveler is a zygon. It goes back to Clara’s birth to replace her but finds out there is no Clara. So it brainwashes Clara’s parents into thinking they are having a baby. Then it ueses its knowledge of Clara to becomes baby Clara. So the question like Beethoven’s music, where did Clara come from?

    #46199
    Kharis @kharis

    @mudlark couldn’t agree more.  See you at the pub and I’ll spot you a tonic.  (:

    @lisa Physics was my emphasis, but I teach astronomy, oddly enough.  I am still chewing on your notice to the Doctor referencing himself TWICE.  He never calls himself Doctor anything, so this immediately stood out to me too.   Originally I dismissed it as poor character writing, but it could be just the opposite, excellent and subtle character writing so that we notice there is something not quite Doctor about the Doctor.  He’s a Zygon, makes perfect sense.

    @misterhoo Good bonkers theory.  What about Emma Gray?  Wouldn’t she have been able to sense the Zygon in her?  Or am I giving her to much credit?  She did admit to be wrong when her feelings got in the way.

     

    #46200
    Hillforest @hillforest

    Hello everyone, I’ve been lurking here for longer than I should admit (since you all left the guardian…) and I’ve enjoyed it all inmensely…much like I’ve enjoyed the years of looping stories and clever arcs in my one and only show (my son loves it…I loved it…I love it…he loves it…a recursive strange loop) (plus a never ending collection of bloody merchandise),

    ill never get the classical references, or the tarot flics, or the red tie blue tie mirroring (to think, he started it all with a jacket cuff!) but c’mon……

    capdoc actually said…’what if they find out who we are’ when titivating.…he’s a bloody zygon!!

     

     

     

     

    #46202
    misterhoo @misterhoo

    @kharis Well, the Doctor did say the Zygons assimilate into their new world and become the person that they copy. Maybe the Clara Zygon forgets it’s not really Clara. Isn’t that the reason for the rebellion? The new generation does not want to forget who they are.

    #46203
    Mersey @mersey

    @purofilion

    “One slip, one word in the wrong sentence, and the family next door would be gone the next morning and all the neighbours would act as if nothing had happened”.

    So you think I’m a cowardly inferior from eastern Europe. I’m not sure whether my czech and slovak neighbours would be glad if they knew that they’re cowards and the best thing to do is to run away from them. Still Czechs survived as one nation over 1000 years sharing borders with such countries as Germany and Poland.

    Funny you should mention Sontaran Stratagem. There’s a scene with Martha in which she’s examining a polish worker who is acting as a robot. So that’s how you see foreigners from central Europe. As cowards or machines who are too thick to learn your language. Rather disappointing as GB is home for many young and intelligent people from this part of Europe.

    I know that Britons are very proud of how they stood up to Hitler. My country didn’t get that chance. Our commanders thought that we have to withstand only a few days. After that our western allies were supposed to come and help us. And that’s how these political treatises work. They don’t. But we can be very proud of our soldiers who fought at many fronts. Especially No. 303 Fighter Squadron who fought in the Battle of Britain. As the reward we got 44 years with the communists and the bill from Winston Churchill for fuel and the planes our pilots had used in the battle. But as a nation we value freedom the most. And we never sit quietly when we see unjustice (maybe that’s why we have such troubled history). And I can assure you that I’m fully aware of what’s actually happening in my country, at my neighbours, in Europe and in the world.

    @jimthefish I agree. Steven Moffat is brilliant but he’s not a seer. It was bad luck. I watched this episode on All Saints’ Day. In my country the tradition is to light candles and visit the graves of deceased relatives. So I was in a very pensive mood yesterday. And maybe that’s why I didn’t feel it was really entertaining. Last year, after Dark water I said that Steven Moffat menaged to offend both atheists and believers. He definitely maintains his standards 🙂

    @arbutus I think MASH is a brilliant example of an antiwar comedy. But the action of this comedy takes place far away from our homes. MH17 flew over my country and crashed on the territory of my neighbour. @IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan This case is not yet closed as 9/11. And what is really painful everyone knows who is responsible for that but probably no one will be punished. @mudlark @bluesqueakpip I don’t mind politics in Doctor Who especially if it’s so important to you. I’m just not sure if it’s the right time to make allusions to MH17 incident.

    But I can understand that ukrainian conflict is not as important to you as it’s to me.

    The truth is that Doctor Who belongs to everyone and no one, even Steven Moffat. You can take it and do with it whatever you want and he can do nothing with that.

     

    #46204
    lisa @lisa

    @blenkinsopthebrave Apologies!! lol – That was meant for @phaseshift about
    the series 9 on Amazon. 🙂 Didn’t mean to cause you any mental grief with that!

    You think that Jac and the UNIT troop were Zygons which had become totally
    absorbed by the Human personalities? Therefore Bonnie/Clara saw them as traitors
    to her concept of Zygon purity and chose to eliminate all of them? Yes, I can see
    how that can work.

    #46205
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @lisa –well, that’s a relief!

    On the zygon front, I am not sure who was human and who was zygon in the scene, just that it could have played out in different ways.

    I am also not sure if zygon Clara/Bonnie really is an evil younger zygon, or an elite middle-aged zygon, or even Clara pretending to be a zygon!

    Back in the 1960s in the TV show “The Invaders”, about aliens who can look and sound human (same principle of paranoia that we have here–and an excellent show and available on DVD), the aliens could be spotted because they could not straighten out the little finger on their hands. But then the show-runners dropped that, meaning it was impossible to tell who was human and who was alien. It made for brilliant paranoia!

     

    #46206
    Torchwood3 @torchwood3

    I really enjoyed The zygon Invasion. Bringing back osgood was a great move on the Part of Steven moffat. I knew that it was going to be great from the trailer but it exceeded my expectations by having a Zygon hiding as Clara. Can’t wait for Part two on saturday. BTW I’m in america so yeah….

    #46208
    Kharis @kharis

    <span class=”useratname”>@misterhoo I think you and @lisa are definitely on to something.   Why did he say to Clara “This is Doctor Disco” and not just the Doctor.  My guess is it’s his code word for it not being the real Doctor.    </span>

    #46209
    Ozitenor @ozitenor

    A few very random thoughts:

    1. I wonder if a Zygon has ever transformed into a Dalek. Indeed, can they copy just the living thing or can they also copy the technological shell surrounding them? … I admit I only wonder this as my mind thinks back to Clara in the Dalek… I also admit it is a terrifying notion to think that a Zygon could now, using it’s new capabilities, become a Dalek simply by seeing one (or even reading the mind of someone who has seen one? .. gulp!)

    2. When a Zygon duplicates a target, does it take on the exact medical nuances of the person, or is it simply a superficial duplication? — specifically I am wondering if Zygon Osgood has actual asthma or just takes the inhaler to keep up appearances. If we assume a Zygon doesn’t duplicate the internal diseases etc. of a target, then perhaps the very specific shot in this episode of Osgood hiding under the table actually needing to puff on her inhaler is a signal that she is in fact Human Osgood.

    3. If a Zygon duplicates a Time Lord, obviously the Zygon would not also have the regeneration capabilities. Or would they? Would they be for all effective purposes actually a Time Lord? or is the process really just “skin deep”. This random thought makes me again think about Osgood and her asthma.

    On second thoughts, I probably shouldn’t think too much about this, lest I get all brain explodey-wodey

    #46212

    @mersey @purofilion

    “One slip, one word in the wrong sentence, and the family next door would be gone the next morning and all the neighbours would act as if nothing had happened”.

    So you think I’m a cowardly inferior from eastern Europe. I’m not sure whether my czech and slovak neighbours would be glad if they knew that they’re cowards and the best thing to do is to run away from them. Still Czechs survived as one nation over 1000 years sharing borders with such countries as Germany and Poland.

    Funny you should mention Sontaran Stratagem. There’s a scene with Martha in which she’s examining a polish worker who is acting as a robot. So that’s how you see foreigners from central Europe. As cowards or machines who are too thick to learn your language.

    I think I speak for all of us here when I say (to quote Oz, from Buffy the Vampire Slayer): That’s a radical interpretation of the text.

    Nobody here has sad that, nor anything remotely like it.

    #46213

    @mersey

     This case is not yet closed as 9/11. And what is really painful everyone knows who is responsible for that but probably no one will be punished.

    Sorry – missed this.

    Perfectly true, but not the point. The use of imagery is the issue.

    The image of the anti-aircraft missile vs the image of The Wall of The Missing

    The image of the hostage video vs the imagine of the new president being sworn in (that shot in BSG, was based directly in the swearing in of Johnson in Dallas)

    Art is informed by the real world (and, when things are working properly, vice versa). And it must always be fearless, or it fails.

    #46214
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @mersey

    MH17 flew over my country and crashed on the territory of my neighbour.

    And I have stood in the kitchen of my home and seen a terrorist bomb explode. I’m not talking on television; I mean in real life. I’ve had my parents’ friends murdered by terrorists. I do understand that watching fictionalised versions of these events can be a horrible reminder.

    But. Sometimes a horrible reminder is what’s needed. Sometimes you need a scene where a generation of children are shown, bluntly, that those really cool looking surface-to-air missiles, those cool BFG’s, aren’t just for killing targets in a video game and aren’t just for killing monsters.

    They can just as easily be aimed at the people you love.

    #46217
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @pedant

    Art is informed by the real world (and, when things are working properly, vice versa). And it must always be fearless, or it fails.

    Seconded, with emphasis.

    @mersey  Please, I beg you, do not assume that because we disagree to some extent on what is or is not an appropriate subject to be referenced in a show such as Doctor Who, that we do not understand or care about such matters as the conflict in the Ukraine or the MH17 incident, or the many current critical global issues.

    The members of this forum are from many different parts of the world, with widely different experience and viewpoints to inform their contribution.  Speaking for myself, I was born in the UK during the second world war and grew up in the aftermath, aware at least to some extent of the consequences, and knowing that though life was not particularly easy for us for many years, others had suffered and were suffering infinitely more.  I do not recognise the attitudes which your attribute to us, and am saddened to think that this is the impression you have received.

    #46220
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @mersey   To add to what @bluesqueakpip has just said, I lived in Belfast, in Northern Ireland, for nearly three years in the early 1970s, when terrorist bomb explosions were a daily occurrence, some of which I witnessed at close range.  I was fortunate in that neither I nor any of my close friends was harmed, but it was always a possibility.

    And yes, children and young people need to be shown, via a suitable medium, that explosions and shootings, which may look cool in video games or in mindless action movies, have terrible and tragic consequences in real life, even at the risk of upsetting those who have witnessed or lived through such incidents.

    #46223
    soundworld @soundworld

    @mudlark @pedant

    Thank you, so beautifully written and expressed.

    I think what stands out is that many of us here have an appreciation for the Doctor’s ‘humanity’ (wrong word when applied to all species) and compassion.  Always striving to get the bigger picture, to understand your apparent enemies, to appreciate where they’re coming from, to see what you can do that might make a difference.  It makes life more involved than the “Hang ’em Flog ’em” brigade of the mainstream media would have us believe.  And hopefully, more rewarding, as we have a chance to discover our shared experiences with ‘aliens’.

    My own approach is to question, ‘is this true?’  – do I really know something to be so.  Really, it can be so dangerous to assume anything about anybody, we really most of the time do not know.  So, all we can know is what is in us, and strive to know ourselves better so that hopefully we can choose better actions.

    Knowing ourselves better is of course the Fool’s journey, as we have been discussing this series.  That it has provoked these reactions shows just how bang-on the series is, not shying away from awkward and painful topics.

    #46225
    Anonymous @

    @mersey @pedant

    Mersey you’ve wildly misinterpreted what I wrote. I’m quite upset.

    My parents experienced this. They are the Czechs of whom I speak. How could you think I assumed they’re cowards? They didn’t run away -they left for a better world -here, so they could raise me and my brother (who my mother was already expecting).

    To think I assume Eastern Europeans are cowards is an incorrect interpretation of what I wrote and I thought you’d know me a little better; by now having engaged with me more than a few times.

    Good grief. On earlier posts and with others  -and @Tommythetulip would verify this, my parents left their little village with a salami, a rye bread and a pistol. They could not alert their families for to do so would mean they would be taken in for questioning and never seen again. Two of my mother’s relations were taken in anyway and executed, Mersey. Executed.

    My family -my mother’s parents   -disowned my mother and as she died well before the Berlin Wall came down,  they never had the opportunity to see her and to forgive her. On her death bed, she wailed with upset, she felt she wouldn’t be let into heaven (as she told the priest before the Last Rites were given) because she had left them, alone, like a coward. Even the priest, a Russian man, said that had she not left she wouldn’t have married her husband (she was a butcher’s daughter and my father was the son of publican and so the two in ‘society’ would never have been permitted to marry) and she would never have given birth to her two babies. I was a difficult birth -no doubt I would not have survived had she birthed me in Prague, at the rather late age of 41.

    She died 7 years later and I never knew this story of her escape for many, many years.

    They left their village in the middle of the night, and at the Station, saw my father. It was he, about to say “hello dad,” who was stopped by my mother, who said “Bohumil, we must keep quiet, he can never know.”

    They then spent days avoiding troops and hiding in the mountains, nearly freezing to death and at one point, my father, so close to a Russian he could virtually smell him, considered using his Ruger but my mother cautioned him not to. Eventually, the Russian, on duty (but rather poor at it) wandered away and after a week surviving on rabbits and the odd handful of berries, made it over the mountains and into Italy where they spent 3 years bringing up my brother and despite both being engineers, ended up working in the kitchens peeling potatoes until they were able to jump a ship for Australia.

    When they arrived, my father, with three degrees in chemical, refrigeration and electrical engineering worked in a factory. For years.

    Under no circumstances were they cowards. I didn’t see eye to eye with them -they were very stern, but boy did they say to me when I was being silly and partying “Puro, we didn’t bring you out here so you could waste your life.” Every year, my father, eventually struggling for promotion, dragged us all over Australia and so at 16, because I missed a year of school, I started university where I studied and worked for over seven years eventually gaining a scholarship to study in the States.

    Cowardly? I don’t think so. It was intense bravery and I’m very proud of them both. My father died of dementia last year. His last words to me were, “I always loved you Vlasta”.

    This was my mother’s name, who by then had been dead for 40 years. At last he would be able to meet her -on the other side.

    There is no blame @mersey -no belief that East Europeans are, or were, cowards. Treachery and misery is everywhere and when I was able to meet my relatives in the early ’90s it was a wonderful reunion and all was forgiven and only love and forgiveness remained. Still, after seeing this misery and how it nearly tore my mother apart, I can truly say that educating the young is the only we way we stop such horrors from continuing to happen. My mother, were she alive today, would be shocked that tyranny, in all its forms is still aflourish and she’d weep -she really would. I could imagine her saying “Why did we leave? The world is in an even worse place now”

    However, if I communicated something else in my earlier post then I’m sorry -I was not trying to demean the troubles you have seen nor the difficulties we all experience. My horrors are no different to anyone else’s. Not at all.

     

    #46226

    @soundworld

    Knowing ourselves better is of course the Fool’s journey, as we have been discussing this series

    As the Gentleman from Tralfamadore put it: “Anybody who has traveled this far on a fool’s errand … has no choice but to uphold the honor of fools…”

    And – somewhat on point here – Kurt, rather more directly in one of the great works of American literature: “No art is possible without a dance with death.”

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