The Zygon Invasion

[Anonymous @]

@pedant

very, very nearly I was PurofIlium’ exactly because of Billy Pilgrim.

Instead though, to keep to the ancient Greek -rather than mixing in with ‘New York’ of Vonnegut’s novel, I went for Ilion instead.

What a coincidence. Years ago, when students actually studied books, this was on the curriculum in Sydney schools -now they study, “how to text”

[Anonymous @]

regarding my post: #46225

@mersey I was referring to @jimmythetulip there. Apologies Mr Tulip -I’m not normally either so rancorous or so forgetful. 🙂

@soundworld

Also, beautifully expressed. It is quite true -in this internet age, there is so little we know about each other really, but the first thing, the most important question, I suppose, is: “who are we?” or “Who am I and what do I stand for? If I do not stand for something then I will surely fall”

[nerys @nerys]

OK, as I guessed was going to be the case, this was much better on second viewing. I felt like there were even more commercial interruptions than usual. I know they’ve gotta pay the bills, but it really disrupts the flow of the story. It all held together so much better when I could fast-forward through the commercial breaks!

[jphamlore @jphamlore]

Err, there is a non-zero possibility that all of the purported violence in the context of the story of The Zygon Invasion is faked or will somehow be blocked.  So this would if anything be an anti-lesson in the seriousness of using weapons or bombs.

The missile is not actually shown hitting and exploding the President of the World’s airplane.  And if the Doctor and the remaining Osgood are not copies by the young rebel Zygons, something has to happen to save their lives.  For all we know the airplane is actually the Tardis or some magic tech on the plane will block that missile or somehow the occupants of the airplane will be magically whisked away at the last second.

It is possible every single thing in the context of the story is staged.  Even the leaders of the Zygons who are apparently kidnapped … notice they are backing away from the Doctor before the attack against his orders while he talks on his phone, their own actions putting them suspiciously just at the right distance so that the smoke bomb can separate them while they are taken into the van.  They are only “executed” on a video not depicted live in the story, so the video might have been faked in the story.

In Truth or Consequences, New Mexico, the cop Zygon guides Kate Stewart to view what are supposed remains in the dumpster.  Supposed.  Notice that Zygon Clara tells the Doctor that real Clara is dead.  But we at least we have seen that real Clara appears to be in a Zygon pod, not dead.  So the younger rebel Zygons who are boasting of their killings have been shown to simply be lying.  It seems quite possible to me there are rules of some game being played here where the goal is to get the other side to start the actual killing first.

If the goal is to show some sort of realistic portrayal of violence and its aftermath, this is possibly the worst effort I have ever seen.  Even Resurrection of the Daleks had the decency to show a major character companion Tegan horrified by the deaths she experienced to shock her into fleeing from being with the Doctor.

[Anonymous @]

@jphamlore If the goal is to show some sort of realistic portrayal of violence and its aftermath, this is possibly the worst effort I have ever seen

No  I’m not so sure. Why would it have to be the worst? If Clara Zygon is not part of the splinter group she is therefore a good Zygon. Surely then, she needs to act as if she is heartless and believes, truly, in Truth or Consequence?

If all are bluffing and if everyone is a Zygon? But I’m not even sure if that’s the case: this is  a suspenseful bait and switch story leaving us confused until the final reveal!

[jphamlore @jphamlore]

The only bad thing ordinary humans are accused of doing in the episode are the murders of the Zygons in Truth or Consequences, New Mexico.  Unfortunately for the argument that one shouldn’t kill something just because it looks like a monster, the Doctor himself felt no compunction against programming humans to slaughter members of the Silence on sight in Day of the Moon.

Any political argument falls apart because the elites actually got everything they claimed to want now and apparently made a total hash of it.  The elites were apparently able to completely mask from the general public the resettlement of 20 million Zygons, so how could the general public be blamed for killing monsters they would have no idea are peaceful aliens.  In fact the elites today claim there (1) is no conspiracy and (2) no danger whereas in this episode there is a conspiracy and the entire human race may be in danger of being subjugated by a technologically superior and undetectable species.  The elites kept the general human population from having any knowledge and thus any political input.  There are zero human politicians or businessmen depicted in this episode, not even in leadership.  Instead the ones making the decisions for humanity are a woman in a pantsuit, an asthmatic cosplaying groupie, a school teacher, and an extraterrestrial who is basically a community organizer who has been appointed the President of the World.

This is the basic contradiction of this episode, that if there is a political point being made, the side being preached against is completely out of the loop in the decision-making and is blameless.  If humanity truly is in danger, maybe it was a bad idea to put all of the decision-making in the hands of a pantsuit wearing woman, a groupie, a school teacher, and a community organizer, and maybe less scientific expertise and more common sense and professional leadership is needed.

I am praying for the franchise’s sake that the writers realize this and are planning to show in The Zygon Inversion that the elites actually have a well-thought out plan that will dazzle us all for defusing this situation without loss of life.   This is the one episode where it simply won’t be good enough for the Doctor to wing-it and save the day at the last moment.

[Anonymous @]

@jphamlore

you should read John Ralston -Saul’s polemic (if you haven’t already) on exactly this issue -a favourite Canadian philosopher, polemicist and economist who might very well express similar ideas to your own. Quite interesting. I’ll have to do more reading on the ‘elites’ concept as expressed by him, quite cogently, in both The Unconscious Civilisation and Voltaire’s Bastards.

[lisa @lisa]

I just re watched most of this episode and a couple things are nagging at me

1. When I think about the idea of an older man talking o 2 young girls
and then they get snatched well just saying that it felt unnerving and i cant decide
if I think that scene is courageous or crude

2. That church scene with the UNIT soldiers bugged me too. Why would they all follow
the Zygon/people impersonators into the church? That was annoying again on this watch

BTW- Are Zygons androgenous? That’s what I’ve been assuming.

Also, for just a moment I thought the boy sitting on the stairs could be the boy that
Danny sent back. I think that might have worked out well.

[Missy @missy]

@lisa

It’s only Part one (series 9) that’s coming – I blew it, thinking it was the Box set. *blushes)

Don’t make my mistake. I still shan’t watch anymore though.

Cheers

Missy

[ichabod @ichabod]

@soundworld  Knowing ourselves better is of course the Fool’s journey, as we have been discussing this series. That it has provoked these reactions shows just how bang-on the series is, not shying away from awkward and painful topics.

Your comment is bang-on as well.  And thanks, @pedant, for the good Vonnegut material.

@purofilion  I can truly say that educating the young is the only we way we stop such horrors from continuing to happen. My mother, were she alive today, would be shocked that tyranny, in all its forms is still aflourish and she’d weep -she really would. I could imagine her saying “Why did we leave? The world is in an even worse place now”

Thank you, too, for sharing that story with us.  These things are hardly new; whether we talk about them or we don’t talk about them, it seems, they recur.  Everyone’s choice is theirs to make, over and over, and we can only hope that times of better choices will come sooner rather than later (or not at all).

 

[Arbutus @arbutus]

Thank you @purofilion, @bluesqueakpip, and everyone else for sharing your experiences with the evil of all those who would force their worldview on others. So many of us (perhaps most, even all of us) have been touched in some way, directly or indirectly, by these events. I concur with everyone who has said that if something that reaches as many young people as Doctor Who can start the conversation that every family should be having, this can only be a good thing.

Like Puro, I am fortunate to have been born in a country which boasts numerous freedoms, because some of my grandparents had the courage to flee from oppression. This is not to say that those who stayed had a lesser courage; many of them are today struggling to take control of their nation’s destiny. But Canada welcomed my grandparents and invited them to help build a new nation, then more recently, chose to try and close those doors to others desperately in need of help, rejecting and fearing them because of their differences, because they, unlike my ancestors, are neither white-skinned nor Christian, and we are encouraged to fear them. Happily, in our recent election, sufficient people were repelled by this ideology that we “kicked the bastards out”.

Doctor Who has always told us that we are more alike than different. In the Whoniverse, we are humans in a universe of aliens; and the program has always shown us that even many of those aliens share much in common with us. The Doctor has always urged his companions, his friends, and all of humanity, to be better, while the show itself has always urged the same on us, the viewers. It’s only sad that, fifty-two years on, we still need the lesson.

[geoffers @geoffers]

@blenkinsopthebrave

And then (and this is the point that has me perplexed) she says “Kill the traitors”. But in what sense are the UNIT soldiers and human Jac traitors? Traitors to who? If she said “kill the enemy” it would have sounded more logical.

i thought that was odd, as well. one interpretation could be that zygon clara considers all of UNIT to be traitors to the cause of zygon independence. UNIT forces them to remain hidden, so as not to upset humanity, maybe? it’s a weak reading of that line, but until everything is made clear next time, it’s the best i can do! 🙂

have you any theory about jac’s weird moment when she and clara first get off the elevator, when the boy is being carried away? she gasps, and clutches her side, for no visible reason. perhaps she IS a good zygon, but something in her shape-shift has gone wrong? the police officer zygon did say that a younger zygon could have trouble maintaining a shift, perhaps jac is an inexperienced one, having trouble maintaining the appearance of the older woman?

 

[Anonymous @]

@arbutus

beautifully said m’dear and quite right too -you have kicked those bastards out and your dear country welcomed many refugees  -or those in need of safety and refuge – in to Canada. This is something, in Australia, we were always taught and so thought fondly of you -Whitlam would often commend Canada and its “forthright behaviour and tolerance.”

@geoffers

In that scene, I rather stupidly assumed that there were two lots of Zygons -the traitors –not of the Splinter group and therefore to be killed 0ff -like the humans and secondly those belonging to the Splinter Group  -which I thought Clara was a part of.  The Splinter Group wants to kill the ‘traitors’.

On re-watch, I’m of course wondering the opposite -the traitors are possibly the Splinter Group, those ruining the cease fire and killing off the young girls (yes, @lisa I’m confused about that whole scene in the playground too but it is Peter Harness) but if that’s so, would Zygon Clara look so obviously ‘evil’ -with her ‘face’ those big eyes -that wide face, actually. Hmm, didn’t Twelve always say, “you have  a wide face” ??

Now, I am confused. Bring on part 2.

Still, other this tangle of Claras I’m still certain there’s more to this Clara than…..well, this!

[Anonymous @]

@jphamlore

Ah ‘uh oh!’ I didn’t read it properly. It seems you’re actually arguing that the elites need to have a part in this whole shebang. On Ralston-Saul, no they absolutely don’t. A woman in a pantsuit, a school teacher and a UNIT tag-a-long is all it takes. We don’t want the bureaucrats and the elites either putting us in trouble or getting us out of it -if we do, we’re likely to be bombarded, not with bombs, but with acres of weasel words in tightly bound manuscripts and wasteful, non democratic royal commissions. Give Saul a read, I think you’d find him quite supportive of this type of ordinary fighting of the elites.

Down with the elites! 🙂

[Anonymous @]

A lot of you have suggested that UNIT and/or the Doctor might be Zygons, for whatever plot purpose- in UNIT’s case, presumably to act as a decoy for the actual UNIT troops. Even if they’re not a decoy, the problem with this is that it implies that the lives of the (good, sentient, not just monstery) Zygons are unimportant (and cannon fodder) in comparison to the human UNIT soldiers. Not a great look in a story where the Zygons are Muslim stand-ins, even if it’s an accurate depiction of how the media places value on life.

Apart from that, I’m not sure I’d buy the ‘x is a Zygon’ theorising at this point anyway; as far as I’m concerned, a spade is a spade until it lays its suckery hand on me.

@purofilion

I think that it was stated that the Human was kept only if more information was needed from them -so this then implies the zygonsdo need some (occasional) information from the human hosts -hence the soldier and the Colonel would be right in assuming the Zygon wouldn’t know everything -a lot but not all.

But in this case they aren’t getting the information from a captive human, but rather from the soldier’s memory of that human. In the same way that they got the information in the first place without contacr, surely they could do so again whilst standing there, given that the situation hasn’t changed, and their lives may depend on it.

@drben

Honestly, I tend to find the modern UNIT episodes a bit hard to follow, perhaps because I keep getting distracted by how inept they seem for a huge covert international organization.  This season in particular, they’ve seemed incapable of getting anything right, and I still don’t understand why they would grant any authority to Clara, who is (at most) the Doctor’s pal.

I’m not sure that UNIT have ever been all that gigantically effective (much as I love the Pertwee era), though this is a particularly poor showing on their part, yeah. They do seem to have suffered a little of late; in the RTD era they tended to be presented as well resourced, crack teams of soldiers operating at an arm’s length from the main characters (not the latter in Sontaran Stratagem, where they’re extremely successful once their weapons work); of late the focus has tended to be on Kate/Osgood/Jac to cover up the hokey and undermanned bases of operations, and smaller numbers of soldiers.

Did anyone else find the shot of the troops marching into the cave in lockstep a little odd?

And you’re certainly right about Clara’s status.

@kharis

My problem is with the characterization of the Doctor and Clara.

Remember that Clara only appears for 1-2 minutes, and the rest is a Zygon.

@ozitenor

1. I wonder if a Zygon has ever transformed into a Dalek. Indeed, can they copy just the living thing or can they also copy the technological shell surrounding them?

Given that they copy clothes, I assume they could copy the shell.

2. When a Zygon duplicates a target, does it take on the exact medical nuances of the person, or is it simply a superficial duplication? — specifically I am wondering if Zygon Osgood has actual asthma or just takes the inhaler to keep up appearances.

I was wondering about this. In Zygon Osgood’s first appearance in the 50th, she says something along the lines of “I hate it when I get a dud”, which suggests the condition is copied.

@lisa

1. When I think about the idea of an older man talking o 2 young girls
and then they get snatched well just saying that it felt unnerving

Agreed, but I think that was part of the point, the alien Doctor’s lack of awareness as to how this looks- as well as the general gag of having the commanders hide out as two tiny blonde girls.

[Starla @starla]

@Supernumerary

Even if they’re not a decoy, the problem with this is that it implies that the lives of the (good, sentient, not just monstery) Zygons are unimportant (and cannon fodder) in comparison to the human UNIT soldiers. 

This thought has crossed my mind too. If the Doctor and Osgood in the plane are ‘good’ zygons, why are their lives any less important than those of ghe Doctor and Osgood? Why can they be used as bait, and potential “cannon fodder”, while the humans etc avoid the danger?

@lisa . That church scene with the UNIT soldiers bugged me too. Why would they all follow <em style=”line-height: 1.5;”>the Zygon/people impersonators into the church? That was annoying again on this watch

My husband truly disliked this scene, and he felt it detracted from the episode as a whole. (I didn’t mind it the first time, but like @lisa it bugged me on the second viewing). His reasoning was that he found it incredibly implausible that soldiers belonging to a highly trained military organisation such as UNIT would fall for the zygon’s fairly lame “I’m your mother, don’t kill me” trick. Surely they had been prepped prior to the mission that the zygons would do something like that. Surely UNIT would have verified the actual location of all the soldier’s family members prior to the mission, therefore giving the troops some clarity of mind in the face of such emotive trickery.

Even just letting one or two of the soldiers enter the church, the rest unsure and retreating,  would have been more plausible? Oh well… not every episode can be perfect I guess 😊

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@starla   @lisa   Re the UNIT soldiers being fooled into entering the church:  since the Zygons were able to lift information from the soldiers’ minds and use that information to replicate members of their families, perhaps they were able also to manipulate the soldiers’ minds into believing and trusting what they saw, despite the briefing that they had received.  That is how I read the situation, anyway.  The woman who aborted the drone strike earlier because she saw what looked like her family wasn’t prepared for the sight, so her hesitation is understandable even if her mind wasn’t being manipulated.

[Anonymous @]

But in this case they aren’t getting the information from a captive human, but rather from the soldier’s memory of that human..

@supernumerary

eer huh? I thought it was stated that they needed to keep a human only to keep information -or ongoing info from it -as per the statement that Osgood(s) said. If not, then I can only conclude I am confused 🙂

Still, if we take this parable to hand….we’re in trouble aren’t we. These are not different people these are aliens and some of them want to kill the entire world. Whichever way you look at it, it’s bad, but yes, I agree, “the good not monstery zygons” shouldn’t be ignored or used as bait -except, in RL, if that’s how you want to make the analogy, that’s what seems to happen.

Aaaand this is why I hardly ever revert to analogies because whilst they work on the surface they almost never do when you scratch the surface innit? So, I think trying to draw huge parallels becomes rather a problem. I want to see them as monsters -not all of them, just the bad ones 🙂

 

[Anonymous @]

@mudlark

right yes! Because they are zygons not monstrous people therefore some form of ‘mastery’ mind-bending could be something these creatures have evolved. A type of low level hypnosis. Mind you, when the soldier asked about his favourite teddy bear I wouldn’t be able to remember (his or anyone else’s) if 8 soldiers were pointing AKs at me.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@geoffers

Is Jac a zygon? To be honest, I have no idea! On the first viewing I assumed she was human and Clara was possibly an evil zygon, on the second viewing I still assumed Jac was human, but Clara might be a pro-treaty zygon. By the third viewing, and in light of the arguments of @jphamlore and others, I began to wonder if everyone was a zygon.

I am resistant, however, to the idea that the Doctor is a zygon. Partly because I cannot see when he would have been replaced, partly because his meeting with the two zygon leaders/little girls in the playground wouldn’t make sense if he was a zygon at that point, and partly because his self-referencing as Doctor Disco seems to me to be in keeping with the Capaldi Doctor’s new persona.

Mind you, as I type this our two household cats are lying asleep at my feet, and I am not at all sure that they might not be zygons!

 

[soundworld @soundworld]

@supernumerary

as far as I’m concerned, a spade is a spade until it lays its suckery hand on me.

<<sleeucchh>> sound of suckery hand! Behind you!

Anyway, how do I know you’re not all zygons?  You’ve assumed the identities of these forum posters, and are merrily creating diversions and plans.

Actually , I just remembered a favourite book from years past ‘ Freddy’s book’, by John Gardner.  The first part deals with the encounter between an arrogant intellectualising professor of Scandinavian linguistics, and the ‘monster’ (physically deformed) son of another, emotionally distant, professor.  The second part of the book is the story that has been written by Freddy (the son).  This is a lively, highly entertaining parable of life in 16th century Sweden, in which the Devil appears in various guides, always whispering counsel to all the leading characters.  This counsel is of course always contradictory egotistical, and increasingly mad!  We realise that the Devil in the end has no plan, and is resorting to a kind of desperate hope in increasing chaos that something will come of it.  I shan’t give away any more of it!

Darn it, Firefox keeps trying to Americanise (with a ‘z’) my English.

Did anyone else find the shot of the troops marching into the cave in lockstep a little odd?

Yes, that really stood out for me.

@mudlark
The woman who aborted the drone strike earlier because she saw what looked like her family wasn’t prepared for the sight, so her hesitation is understandable even if her mind wasn’t being manipulated.

I thought that whole scene was very, very good.  I’ve read some articles by drone strike operators.  How they go to ‘work’ for the day, like anybody else, except that work is in front of a video console, directing drone strikes.  The whole setup removes them from engaging with their actions and with the results, its all quite horrific.   The main article I read was where the operator rebelled and couldn’t do it any more as he (I think it was a he) came to realise his humanity, but also the sheer military ineffectiveness of creating many more rebels through their actions.  Creating increasing chaos.

@pedant  Thank you for the Vonnegut.  I have to admit I haven’t read any (yet!)

[soundworld @soundworld]

@purofilion
Also, beautifully expressed. It is quite true -in this internet age, there is so little we know about each other really, but the first thing, the most important question, I suppose, is: “who are we?” or “Who am I and what do I stand for? If I do not stand for something then I will surely fall”

Indeed.  And I find that it takes constant questioning and inner work to start answering that question, and to maintain that awareness.  Its terribly easy to be in default mode, which is where certain politicians and media want to steer us.

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@soundworld

Darn it, Firefox keeps trying to Americanise (with a ‘z’) my English.

There is a “British” English dictionary available for FF, but as it happens “z” is perfectly acceptable usage – just not at all fashionable.

[soundworld @soundworld]

@pedant  Thanks!  I’m on a new PC and haven’t yet set everything up.  If its not fashionable, then perhaps I should head in that direction.   As Mark Twain said.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@soundworld   Yes, I too thought that scene was very well done, not least in the way it illustrated that certain truth.  Killing at a distance, however it is done, tends to be dehumanising because it divorces the bomber crew, those who launch the missiles or the drone operator from the end result, and the human cost can then be obscured behind a screen of euphemisms and obfuscation.  For us to witness the drone operator seeing what appear to be her partner and child in the target frame brings home the reality in the simplest way possible.

[bendubz11 @bendubz11]

alright there’s too many of you to tag you all now, but @everyone suggesting Zygon!CapDoc the more I read this thread, the more convinced I am that you’re correct. The referring to himself in the 3rd person, the nicknames, the conversation with Osgood, everything just seems fishy.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@bendubz11

I seem to be the outlier here. My case against the Doctor being a zygon:

1. When was he duplicated? Before the episode started? Before he meets the zygon leaders/little girls?

2. If the latter, what is the sense in his interaction with the little girls/zygon leaders at that point?

3. He calls himself Doctor Disco before he meets the little girls/zygon leaders. If referring to himself that way is an indicator of his zygon-ness, then we go back to point 2.

4. This is a Doctor who brings a tank and an electric guitar to 12th century England. Why is is calling himself Doctor Disco, or Doctor Funkenstein suddenly out of character?

5. He refers to himself in the third person–yes. But to what end? To alert the humans in the room that he is a zygon? Or is it, perhaps, simply that this is the way that Capaldi’s Doctor talks?

Of course, he may be a zygon, but I do not see that the reasons on offer present a convincing case.

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

I’m with @blenkinsopthebrave

[DrBen @drben]

@lisa – 1. When I think about the idea of an older man talking o 2 young girls
and then they get snatched well just saying that it felt unnerving and i cant decide
if I think that scene is courageous or crude

I actually found this scene very funny, in the way that it flipped expectations.  I expected the Doctor to be mistaken, and to look like a fool (or worse, a creep) by freaking out two innocent girls at a playground – as a sign of his alien denseness about proper human interaction.  I was honestly surprised when he turned out to be right about them being the Zygon commanders.

[jphamlore @jphamlore]

Let us try to make progress by constructing a timeline according to the events of this episode.

Two years ago, in *Day of the Doctor*, humans and Zygons negotiated the treaty.  The two Osgoods not only became the administrators, they were the treaty.  Twenty million Zygons are hatched, imprinting mostly on residents of the UK, and then many are relocated to areas such as Truth or Consequences, New Mexico.  They appear to have retained their imprinting, as they arrive in Truth or Consequences as “Brits.”  Unfortunately they start getting into fights and some are even murdered, causing them to band together and possibly starting the Truth or Consequences movement.  It would have been nice if UNIT could have monitored the situation after stranding them with no money or jobs in an isolated American town, but the information of the Zygon relocation was kept by Osgood(s) and Osgood(s) alone.

Then one of the Osgoods is murdered by Missy in *Death in Heaven*.   At the beginning of the episode, in their recording, the Osgoods specifically mention that if one of them is killed it would be a crisis for the truce.  The Doctor later in the episode reaffirms the Osgoods’ importance saying they are the treaty.  Shortly after her double’s death, the remaining Osgood goes AWOL from UNIT and goes undercover somewhere in America.  The two leaders of the Zygons then become secretive and uncommunicative with UNIT, seemingly linked with Osgood’s disappearance.  As we have seen in the show, multiple periods of time, at least several weeks, have passed between the events of Death in Heaven and the current time.  There is no indication that the Doctor, who knew the health of both Osgoods is essential for the treaty, reached out to try and assess and / or comfort the remaining Osgood.  After all, who could have possibly known something could go wrong with the mental health of a woman who evidently regards the Doctor as a god, because she has been shown cowering and praying to him for deliverance in Day of the Doctor.

The information about the Zygons’ location is in Osgood’s files, which apparently are in the cloud since both the tablet used by Jac and the younger Zygons can in theory access them after Osgood is taken prisoner.  Nobody at UNIT bothered to at least revoke Osgood’s access to her files despite her lengthy unauthorized absence.  UNIT at least knows the last location of Osgood’s phone is Truth or Consequences, but does nothing to actually investigate that location until Kate Stewart goes there in person, even though there is an American branch of UNIT and even though, as has been stated repeatedly in the episode, Osgood is the treaty.  Then only after footage is recorded of Osgood being held prisoner does UNIT try to access these files, only to learn that Osgood has been compromised and they are now locked out.

I as a viewer am now throwing my hands up into the air and am praying to Moffat and Harness to save this plot in The Zygon Inversion.  Please, please, please, Moffat, make these characters calculating, with a plan, and competent.

[DrBen @drben]

A random thought.  This occurred to me when Osgood was first introduced in Day of the Doctor, but I haven’t thought much about it since.

However, now that there are all these hints about the bootstrappiness of Clara’s existence and whether or not other characters may or may not be related to her (or be her), what do we think about the similarity in names between Clara OSwin OSwald and OSgood?

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@drben

I believe this has been noted before and, of course, there was Zygon!Osgood’s tormenting of Human!Osgood with talk of her prettier, more successful, sister…

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@lisa and @purofilion

My take on the soldiers going into the church was that UNIT, as it often is, is being used metaphorically rather than with any attention to whether it is actually behaves in an effective military manner. After all, the pension budget for UNIT has always been a little on the microscopic side. And they practically faint if their weapons work. 😉

So the point being explored was (possibly) ‘somebody’s mother, somebody’s son’. Everyone on the opposing side is somebody’s mother, somebody’s son. Can a soldier still kill them?

Yes, because they’re carefully trained to. But suppose they were ordered out to kill their mother, their son? Would they do that?

No, because they’re not robots. We saw that with the drone pilot, suddenly shocked into remembering that she’s killing people, not ‘targets’. And then we see it again, with the UNIT troops.

But then, having made the point that if we genuinely remembered that our opponents are ‘somebody’s mother, somebody’s son’, we wouldn’t kill them – Peter Harness carried it on to the next line of the argument; what happens if the people on the other side still want to kill you? What happens if they don’t see you as ‘somebody’s mother, somebody’s son’? What happens if they don’t see you as ‘people’?

That was the meaning of the scene for me; it carries on from the solution in the 50th. Both sides managed to make a treaty, because neither side knew who was human or Zygon – and so both sides could see each other as simply ‘people’.

And this is why we don’t know whether Kate is a Zygon, whether Osgood is a Zygon, whether Jac is a Zygon. It doesn’t matter who is a Zygon and who isn’t, because the people in UNIT are traitors, all, to the idea that Zygons and humans are fundamentally different. They all signed up to the treaty. They all agreed that the ‘other’ was ‘people’.

I suspect a lot of people in UNIT are Zygons. Knowledge of advanced tech, other alien races – UNIT would snap them up. But if they see their future as being part of Earth, rather than conquering Earth, the ‘Truth or Consequences’ group would see them as ‘traitors’.

[jphamlore @jphamlore]

Here’s my evidence almost everyone in The Zygon Invasion is operating on a pretext.

Before she goes back to her apartment where she is captured by the Zygons, Clara refuses to answer her phone and also is wearing red lipstick, makeup something the Doctor has asked about before as to why she painted her face before a date with Danny.   Clara deliberately made herself seem suspicious to the Doctor.

Kate Stewart apparently went without backup to Truth or Consequences, New Mexico, something the cop Zygon repeatedly mentions.  The beginning of the episode recaps how she and her Zygon double negotiated the original treaty neither knowing who was the human and who was the Zygon.  I argue they should retain a bond similar to the Osgoods, or at least a working relationship.  Also the Clara Zygon lies to the Doctor claiming that the original Clara is dead and also mentioning Kate Stewart is dead.  Thus Kate Stewart must have somehow survived being attacked by the cop Zygon.  We also see UNIT hiding out in one of their safehouses.  UNIT acts as if Osgood vanished to America just yesterday having done nothing to protect her files from outside access.  Perhaps they act as if they woke up yesterday because they did wake up yesterday, as Zygon duplicates of UNIT, the real UNIT safely at their real headquarters.

The reason why it is acceptable for Zygons to die is they volunteered to die, both sides, as it is their life-or-death moment on this planet.  The captured Zygon on the Doctor’s plane is apparently willing to die for his cause as states the plane will not land.

I am hoping this is not the worst child acting ever, but the two Zygon 7-year old leaders give every appearance they are in on their supposed kidnapping and execution.  Look at how they interact with the Doctor before their kidnapping.  The Doctor tells them to go nowhere, yet they are showing turning their back and moving away to exactly the right distance for the smoke bomb to provide them cover.  They also must have seen the truck used by their kidnappers.  Then they turn around to face the Doctor while the Zygon smoke bomb is detonated and remain fixed watching the Doctor with their characteristic smirk on their face, until they are grabbed from behind and then start screaming.  And their supposed execution is only shown on video, easily faked.

Osgood(s)’ home movie is shown at the beginning of the episode, but who is it made for?   This movie seems suspiciously concocted to be captured footage from her files that leads her captors to desire to open and use the contents of the mysterious Osgood box.  Osgood is said by UNIT to have gone crazy after the lost of her double, yet everything in this episode shows Osgood as being completely rational.  This really looked like the trope of someone appearing to be a defector from the good guys who is actually feeding false information to the enemy.

And what could be that ultimate sanction, the last line of defense, in that box?  What was shown from *Day of the Doctor*:  The Three Doctors were for a moment able to make the Zygons and humans in that room in the Black Archive not know who was human and who was Zygon.

Whatever the ultimate sanction is, it is probable to me the Doctor cannot unilaterally impose it.  It must, as so many other episodes in the past, be a choice between the moral option and the greedy option, with punishment only occurring if the enemy chooses the greedy option.  And maybe that is why everyone else is acting on their own pretexts, because they are all playing the role of the Tarot card of The Devil:

http://www.tarotlore.com/tarot-cards/the-devil/

[Arbutus @arbutus]

So after a second viewing, I’m more confused than I was before! But for what it’s worth, here are my thoughts.

As others have said, the use of the word “traitor” is confusing. The first time we hear it, I think, is when the two little girls/Zygon commanders are killed, and the Zygon says, “We are the Zygon commanders now. All traitors will be killed.” I would take this to refer to peaceful Zygons, rather than humans. (Although they might well intend to kill humans as well!)

The first time we see the electrified fibre remains, it is when the two Zygon commanders are killed with a flash of red firepower. We never see this again. We only see the threat of killing and the remains afterward. This is also the only time we can be absolutely certain who is being killed, these are definitely Zygons.

When Osgood is taken prisoner, she is shot with blue bolts rather than red. This is also true of Clara. We don’t actually see what was done to Kate, but she was duplicated, so it’s fair to assume that, like Clara, she has not been reduced to a cotton ball.

We don’t see Jac and the UNIT soldiers reduced to fibre. We see a few piles of remains and Bonnie watching as the last couple of Zygons walking away. We assume that everyone has been killed, but confusingly, Bonnie said, “Kill the traitors.” So possibly a few of the soldiers were in fact Zygons (peaceful ones) and were killed, while the rest were zapped with blue bolts and taken away? Nor do we actually see the UNIT soldiers in the church being killed, only the remains. We don’t know whose remains those are, or how long they have been there. The commander assumes they are the remains of her men, but are they?

Bonnie says to the Doctor, “They’re all dead.” But Clara at least is not, because we saw her in a pod. So Bonnie could be lying about the others as well.

Lots of questions, no answers! And it’s only Tuesday.

[Arbutus @arbutus]

I like @jphamlore‘s notion that it was the death of the Osgood “sister” that triggered the problems with the Zygons. This would also support the idea that it was Zygon Osgood that died. It seems likely that Zygons can recognize other Zygons more readily than humans can. I also like the idea that the surviving Osgood might have gone “undercover” with the Zygon faction.

Good point also by @bluesqueakpip about the likelihood of Zygons being UNIT soldiers. It would then explain what appear to be Zygon remains after Bonnie orders the “traitors” to be killed.

@purofilion        Mind you, when the soldier asked about his favourite teddy bear I wouldn’t be able to remember (his or anyone else’s) if 8 soldiers were pointing AKs at me.      Actually, I had the opposite thought, that as a mom, there is no way in life, short of dementia, that I would ever forget that fact about my son’s childhood! But the soldier was clearly well aware that this wasn’t really his mom. But knowing with the head, and pulling the trigger, are very different things.

[nerys @nerys]

@lisa The two scenes you mentioned bothered me on first viewing, for much the same reasons as your own. However, on second viewing, I thought the first scene was a play at humor. Stranger sitting in a swing on a children’s playground, then approaching two little girls who are eventually snatched away? It is creepy on first take, but I thought that was the humor. In what world would an older guy dressed all in black be allowed to sit there and watch the kiddies, without a thousand cellphones photographing him and making the rounds of teachers, parents and law enforcement? I tend to think in today’s world, that just wouldn’t happen without some sort of reaction. Yet there he sat, barely a glance in his direction … and that was only by the two little girl Zygons when he addressed them. I just don’t think it would play out that way in any “normal” scenario.

The second scene bothered me on first glance because I felt certain no soldier would fall for that ruse. He had been warned about what the Zygons were capable of, yet he fell for it anyway.  On second viewing the scene seemed a bit more believable to me. Who knows what lurks in the background of his relationship with his mother … what feelings of guilt and so on? The Zygon seemed to be preying directly on those emotions, and he caved. I do still question the other soldiers going in with him. I can see him doing it, but not the rest. Unless the Zygons standing on the church steps were masquerading as people somehow related to them? That wasn’t fully explained, but it’s the only plausible explanation I can think of for why the other soldiers would follow him in.

By the way, at first glance I too thought the boy sitting on the stairs was the one Danny sent back. I’m glad I wasn’t alone there!

As for the question over when a Zygon might have been made of the Doctor (not saying I’m rolling with the theory, just suggesting), there was that point on the playground when a smoke bomb was thrown, and as I recall there was a brief moment when we didn’t see the Doctor, and then he appeared through the red smoke. That’s the only time I can think of when it might have happened.

[nerys @nerys]

Sorry, too late now for me to edit, but I left out a word in my post above:

As for the question over when a Zygon copy might have been made of the Doctor ….

[jphamlore @jphamlore]

@arbutus: Yes both in Osgood’s film and the Doctor’s words, the health of both Osgoods is vital to the health of the treaty:  The two Osgoods together are the treaty.  When one was killed, the health of the treaty was endangered.

I am wondering if there is just enough wriggle room, especially if almost all of the deaths were not deaths, for even Bonnie the Clara Zygon to have some sort of redemption.  Of course that theory may almost literally be exploded if Bonnie’s missile massacres most of the crew of the Doctor’s plane.  But if the missile can somehow be averted, a quick resolution may be to find another partner to bond with Osgood, if the remaining Osgood is human, especially if that partner shows some generosity.  The original Osgood bonding occurred when both realized they knew who was human and who was Zygon due to who had the inhaler in *Day of the Doctor*, but both chose to carry on.  The younger Zygon rebels are perhaps a good psychological fit for an Osgood, a peer.  Perhaps one can step forward, even Bonnie, and show her worth by doing something to step back from the brink of war.

[DenValdron @denvaldron]

I’m going to be awful and ask where are the Skarasen’s?   The Skarasen is a loch ness monster type critter.  The thing with the Zygon’s is that they depend on the milk/lactic fluid of the Skarasen.  They can’t survive without it.  At least according to Terror of the Zygons.

[lisa @lisa]

@bluesqueakpip @nerys @purofilion

Thanks everyone for commenting! I always appreciate all the help I can get 🙂

You are all right! I also think those scenes with the 2 little girls/Zygons and UNIT soldiers
at the church would be a lot creepier and peculiar if I guess I try to use my rational
brain instead of my Doctor Who universe brain. Cant dispute that. I will re-adjust my settings.

Regarding all the other soldiers following the first soldier into the church I suppose its
possible that the Zygons were taking the shapes of people that all the other soldiers knew.

Assuming that these scenes are being developed intentionally confusing and when the
explanations finally come we wont be underwhelmed. Optimistic since I have the comfort
of never really feeling disappointed.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@denvaldron

I’d imagine that in the forty (or thirty) years since we last saw the Zygons, they’ve discovered how to produce lactic fluid in the lab.

More canonically, Strax claims that he’s gene-spliced himself to produce magnificent quantities of lactic fluid, so it’s reasonable to suppose that the Skarasens are now happily swimming undisturbed on some unnamed planet.

Alternatively, Inverness villages and the Fox Inn are packed with Zygon milkmaids. 😉

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

In terms of the political themes this two-parter is embracing–tolerance, respect for diversity, the need for co-existence and the rejection of violence–this is revisiting the similar themes of the Silurean two-parter with Matt Smith.

I have always liked that two-parter, because the issues it dealt with seemed so quintessentially Who. A large part of what I enjoyed about this episode was the engagement with those same themes. That, and the whole “Invasion of the Body Snatchers” element that the Zygons bring with them.

I realise how most of the comments have been about “who is a zygon, who is a human?” questions. In way, I am happy to sit back and wait for Moffat the story-teller to resolve all of that in ways that I haven’t even considered. But what I am really looking forward to is how they are going to articulate the moral and political questions that have have been raised in this episode. Those issues are so big and so important I want them to do it…well…right.

 

[ichabod @ichabod]

@supernummerary  Re the playground scene, older man, two kids:  that was part of the point, the alien Doctor’s lack of awareness as to how this looks- as well as the general gag of having the commanders hide out as two tiny blonde girls.

Thanks!  Now it makes sense.

@blenkinsop @pedant  I’m with you too; I don’t think the Doctor is a zygon.  The little girls would have reacted quite differently to him in the playground, for starters.

@bluesqueakpip  that was part of the point, the alien Doctor’s lack of awareness as to how this looks- as well as the general gag of having the commanders hide out as two tiny blonde girls. . . doesn’t matter who is a Zygon and who isn’t, because the people in UNIT are traitors, all, to the idea that Zygons and humans are fundamentally different. They all signed up to the treaty. They all agreed that the ‘other’ was ‘people’.

That all works very well for me; thanks.

[soundworld @soundworld]

@bluesqueakpip I’ll go check – I’m not far from Inverness… Not many milkmaids these days at all, it has to be said!

[jphamlore @jphamlore]

@denvaldron: Maybe the Zygons modified the Skarasens to be more like giant earthworms.  After all, something was needed to dig all of their tunnels …

[CountScarlioni @countscarlioni]

On a second viewing, I was struck by the continuities between the end of The Woman Who Lived and The Zygon Invasion. In the final exchange between Ashildr/Lady Me and the Doctor we get The Doctor: Who told you about me? “The man who comes for the battle, and runs away from the fallout”?’ Then near the start of <em>The Zygon Invasion</em>, Kate complains the Doctor has left them with animpossible situation.’  The Doctor saves people but there are consequences. The theme of the The friend inside the enemy, the enemy inside the friend’ is here in spades with the zygons and I’m enjoying the wide array of theories on offer on who is or isn’t a zygon! But @blenkinsopthebrave’s reasons have convinced me the Doctor we’ve seen is not a zygon. Somewhere or other though we must surely getfriendly’ zygons because if the dynamic is just the Doctor & versus Rebel Zygons that would not feel right.

Down to this episode I’d been pretty much interpreting The friend inside the enemy, the enemy inside the friend’ as external to the Doctor. But now think there is much more symmetry to Missy’s explanation to the Doctor of why shegave’ Clara to the Doctor, and the Doctor as `enemy’ to his friends is very much in play.

Just as it’s very hard to see how the political situation that this episode engages with ends, I’m really struggling to see where we will be by the end of The Zygon Inversion.

[Missy @missy]

Phew! all’s well after all.

I remembered Series 7 was sold in two parts so checked on Amazon. They are doing the same thing with series 9, so I

get the first 6 episodes, the rest in December.

What a relief.

Cheers,

Missy

[lisa @lisa]

So do we have anyone that wants to make a prediction about the Tardis blue Osgood Box?
I would like to predict that its not actually a box. When the Doctors had their fingers
on the pulse of the big red button of the Moment they chose to do something different.
I wonder if we will even get to see what the box is capable of. Maybe its a sort of bluff?
I imagine that the Doctor has already anticipated this conflict. But how is this box in
the plan?

[jphamlore @jphamlore]

Here’s my candidate for something in plain sight that the producers might be laughing at online fandom for not observing:  Kate Stewart completely changes the color scheme of her clothes between when she is supposedly leaving Jac and Clara for Truth or Consequences and when she gets out at that town.  The darker outfit at Truth or Consequences is what the Zygon Kate Stewart might be more familiar with.  And we also saw with Osgood that preference in clothes might be sticky as far as human – Zygon duos go.

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