The Zygon Inversion

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  • #46658
    nerys @nerys

    @serahni Ooohhh, I like your theory. Clara and the Doctor are one and the same?

    #46659
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @geoffers

    now, i don’t know if this has been posited elsewhere

    Yup. Extensively. Very intensively, in fact, before Capaldi’s casting was announced. I think most of us ‘Clara is the Doctor’ theorists took the Death in Heaven scenes with Clara claiming to actually BE the Doctor as Moffat’s ‘no, she bloody well isn’t.’ 🙂

    But it could have been a deliberate misdirect, because too many people had figured it out too early. But I agree, Clara is too damn like him – has been ever since Asylum of the Daleks, where Jenna Coleman’s performance read like she’d been told to play it like David Tennant. 😉

    At the moment, I’m going for some variation – she’s his daughter, granddaughter, a projection of the Doctor, a causal loop mirror for the Doctor. Or something more sinister: a ‘make your own Doctor’ program?

    #46660
    Anonymous @

    I just finished watching the episode (really good!)In the scene were ZygonClara was talking to the real Clara through the tv I remembered Adele’s song Hello 😛

    So hello from the other side
    I must’ve called a thousand times

    lets remake it…

    So hello from the other side
    A monster called a thousand times

    #46661
    django @django

    @carrieanne

    When the Doctor said he’d thought Clara was dead for a month, is it just coincidental that we have about a month of the show left? Perhaps Merlin actually is living his life backwards.  😉

    #46662
    DrBen @drben

    Completely brilliant and I can’t stop thinking about it.

    Peter Capaldi has brought so much to this character, and his acting is revelatory.  As fond as I am of Ten and Eleven, neither could have pulled off that tour-de-force speech at the end of this episode.  Their Doctors were cagier, more used to hiding behind artifice, speechifying for its own sake rather than as a matter of desperate persuasion (for this reason, my favorite Ten and Eleven moments are when the artifice cracks — Ten in Waters of Mars, Eleven’s post-Amy depression, etc.).  By contrast, Twelve has an emotional immediacy that his predecessors lacked – underneath the puns and the cynical retorts, Twelve’s true feelings are always just beneath the surface, ready to explode with the right provocation.  (That said, Nine certainly had the capacity for rage and pain to deliver much of this speech, but he was still relearning love and compassion at the time of his regeneration.)  We’ve heard everyone in the modern series (War Doctor included) recount their experiences during the Time War, but I don’t think I’ve ever felt it as deeply as Twelve expressed it.  The senseless brutality of it all, the complete lack of purpose.  That amazing scene was the product of the amazing evolution of this character, and of Peter Capaldi’s unbeatable acting chops.  I was riveted.

    Here’s my underdeveloped Clara theory (cribbed in part from others on this forum):  Clara is a bootstrap paradox that, before the end of the season, will cease to have ever existed.  Similar to those who say there is no Clara Prime, we will learn relatively soon that either Clara or the Doctor played a role in bringing Clara into being in the first place (I don’t think she *is* the Doctor, but there is something of him in her).  This might connect with Ashildr, or River, but Clara’s existence will be revealed to be entirely cyclical.  I keep thinking of the bit from Death in Heaven where she says “Clara Oswald never existed.”  In some respect, subconsciously at least, she knows that is true.

    With any paradox or self-repeating circle, you pull one thread and the whole thing falls apart.  I think the Clara Ouroborous will eat its own tail and swallow itself whole, leaving nothing remaining.  This won’t be a “Turn Left” scenario where Clara’s absence from the universe will change a bunch of things (mainly because that’s been done); rather, her particular Clara-ness will become integrated such that her presence is felt without her existence being necessary.  Perhaps she will become integrated with the Doctor (hybrid!), and everything she’s done will have been done by him instead, and he will have well and truly been alone for years.  Can you imagine anything more tragic?

    #46663
    Kharis @kharis

    @purofilion @mudlark Both great reads.

    @geoffers Great bonkers theory!  It’s plausible, she became part of his time stream.

    @frobisher Thank you, it makes sense now.  I agree, that has to be why the Doctor NEEDS to know, it’s like plastic Amy, he needs to see how convincing she can be.  Clara is clearly not just Clara, and his glasses are not enough to be sure.  He needs to trust his hearts, but is constantly redefining what makes a person who they are.  The soufflé is the recipe, plus the enemy inside the friend, friend inside the enemy, plus the bootstrap paradox equals this Clara’s origins being the root and the issue without a doubt.  She has been in the Dalek three times, trapped in the WiFi, trapped in the dream state, trapped in the Zygon pod, trapped in the Crimson Horror sleep, and in my opinion, trapped in the Library.  There is a theme.

    Also, not the first time he didn’t say things in front of Clara.  She was outside the room by request with Tasha Lem (River in my opinion) in the ‘Time of the Doctor’ and the confession dial was not sent to Clara.

    I want to throw out a bonkers theory, more han likely completely bonkers, but fun to throw out there: Clara gets sent back as a Dalek to the Pandorica.  She’s the Dalek trying to communicate with the Doctor but instead looks like she is trying to kill him.  When she asks for mercy River kills her.  Now how disturbing and bonkers is that?

    #46664
    Kharis @kharis

    @drben Makes so much sense.  Clara was purposeful.  I have often wondered if Charlotte Lux wasn’t chosen to be Clara after River having shared mind/hardrive space realised her brilliance, mind capacity, loyalty, and ingrained need to protect.  She is the perfect candidate to save the Doctor.  Maybe River helped engineer Clara to save him?  Maybe a clone, or something like a clone, is made from Charlotte? Just a random idea.  River and Tasha (River) seem to be at each pivotal moment of Clara’s evolution, as if they are there to see her complete her quest, her reason for creation.  She was born to save the Doctor.  Ashildr (Knightmare Child in my opinion) is up in the mix though, which may be the downfall of the plan.

    #46665
    Mersey @mersey

    @bluesqueakpip

    <span style=”line-height: 1.5;”>”Or something more sinister: a ‘make your own Doctor’ program?”</span>

    This is good. I really like it. I don’t know how Moffat is going to connect all facts about Clara, her family, capability, deeds, ralationship with Danny (who the hell is Orson Pink? Moffat, if you don’t explain that, I will hate you), and her relations with Missy and Ashildr (?) but I hope it will be something that make me to eat my bad words about Clara.

    Maybe it’s not that Clara is already dead (Doctor didn’t act like someone who just had reunited with a person who was gone), maybe he finally figured it out who she is and he’s not really happy with the truth.

    #46666
    Kharis @kharis

    @phaseshift I agree, and wondered the first time Asildr have her nickname if she was the Nightmare Child.   I posted something about it right after the Girl who Lived, but it wasn’t really a theory people seemed to think likely since it is so obscure for new viewers.   Everywhere I posted it people said it was unlikely.  Of course I get what they mean, but a lot of the old story arcs and mentions have returned.  Why not this one?

    I think you are dead on.  This is the prophecy unfolding.  Your post/theory rang true to me.

    #46667
    Kharis @kharis

    @bluesqueakpip I am with you on Clara being engineered, she was born to save the Doctor “I don’t know where I am. I just know I’m running. Sometimes it’s like I’ve lived a thousand lives in a thousand places. I’m born, I live, I die. And always, there’s the Doctor. Always, I’m running to save the Doctor, again, and again, and again. And he hardly ever hears me. But I’ve always been there.” And “I don’t know where I am. I don’t know where I’m going, or where I’ve been. I was born to save the Doctor, but the Doctor is safe now. I’m the Impossible Girl, and my story is done.”

    #46668
    Kharis @kharis

    @drben Completly agree about Peter Capaldi.  What an outstanding Doctor!  He gives me chills, cracks me up and then makes me cry.  Every Doctor I go through the same grief process: swear I will never like the new Doctor because no one will ever be as good as the _____ Doctor, and then being shocked that each Doctor really is amazing and brings something incredible to this Time Lord’s journey.  The 12th may have given the most epic speech of all of Doctor Who.  Of course, I still get chills watching Matt Smith in the ‘Rings of Akatan’ but that’s Doctor Who isn’t it?  Epic, intellectual, whimsical, fierce, funny and always kind, always striving for mercy.  Always a new Doctor, but the core being stays the same.  Mind blowing combination of writers, tech, artists and actors.  There will never be a show that is it’s equal.

    #46669
    nerys @nerys

    @kharis Dunno if I agree with you about River having played a role in creating Clara, as Missy is the one who claims to have done so well in choosing her. So I think it far more likely that Missy has played a major role in creating whatever Clara is, rather than River.

    #46670
    DrBen @drben

    @nerys – Agreed.  BUT, we re-watched Name of the Doctor last night after Zygon Inversion, and there is still some sort of connection between River and Clara that remains unexplored.

    #46671
    lisa @lisa

    I agree with @frobisher that a Claricle came out of the time stream now.
    @nerys I believe Missy chose Clara for her own scheme but might not be an actual part
    of the Claradox. @drben The end scene in the Tardis where the Doctor could
    barely look at her meant to me that he saw a glimpse of a bad Clara,( the enemy inside
    his friend )in Bonnie and was extremely disturbed and is resolved to fix this.

    I’ve been thinking that the confession dial has to do with Clara? Maybe he has recorded
    her story in it?

    #46672
    Kharis @kharis

    @nerys and @drben. Yes, I agree Missy had a huge part in the creation of Clara, but I can see River and Missy working together all too easily.

    #46673
    lisa @lisa

    The only way I see Missy being part of the Claradox is if she was helping the Time lords.
    I wonder if the bargain was to help create a Hybrid weapon for them in return for her
    freedom? Do we know if Missy is cast in any upcoming episodes?

    #46675
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Well, finally got around to a second viewing, and yes, there is much that is wonderful, especially the Doctor’s impassioned argument with Bonnie and Kate (but mostly Bonnie).

    But…I now realise what was nagging at me after my first viewing. Forgiveness…yes. Absolutely. But what about, well…consequences? By the end of the story Bonnie has become Osgood 2, and with Osgood 1 she is content, and on the side of the angels. But what about Jac? What about the pilots and crew on the plane? What about the countless electrified remains that had once been either human or zygon? For Bonnie, there was no remorse, no evident feelings of guilt, no…consequences.

    That bothered me a bit, to be honest.

    #46676
    lisa @lisa

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    Hope all is well with you! Yes I agree but I think that this Doctor is about showing
    Mercy. the 9th was the warrior the 10th was the one that regrets the 11th was the one
    that forgets and the 12th is the one that shows mercy and forgives. Did that with Davros
    too.

    #46677
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    But what about, well…consequences? By the end of the story Bonnie has become Osgood 2, and with Osgood 1 she is content, and on the side of the angels.

    Yup. That’s (Amazing) Grace for you. 🙂

    The Doctor is either (Timestream 1) the mass murderer of over two billion children OR (Timestream 2) the nearly-mass-murderer of… Yet, here he is, content and on the side of the angels. I must have missed the 5000 year prison term for mass murder/attempted mass murder.

    Grace is full and complete forgiveness, of everything, however heinous. It doesn’t have to be earned, it doesn’t require punishment for crimes committed, and it doesn’t have to be deserved. But if ‘grace’ is genuinely in operation, the person who’s been forgiven will start making some pretty major changes in their life.

    Like, for example, a terrorist dedicated to making Zygons live in their own shape committing herself to living as a human for possibly her entire life. Not just living as a human; not letting anyone know, ever, whether she’s Zygon or human. Because that’s the only way she can stop other people doing what she’s done.

    It wasn’t made overt in the script, but the implication is that while ‘Bonnie’ may be copying adult forms, she’s a bonnie wee bairn. She’s one of the young generation of Zygons – which means she must be about two years old. No wonder the Doctor kept talking about tantrums; she really was a toddler having a massive wobbly. Only this toddler was equipped with a rocket launcher.

    #46678
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @bluesqueakpip

    The Doctor is either (Timestream 1) the mass murderer of over two billion children OR (Timestream 2) the nearly-mass-murderer of… Yet, here he is, content and on the side of the angels.

    But he is not content, is he? He is very far from content. He is anguished and he is tortured, as he explains with great conviction. And that is my point. Those inner consequences are nowhere in evidence when it comes to Bonnie/Osgood 2. That is what I mean by consequences. The Doctor suffers those consequences. Bonnie, apparently, does not.

    I must have missed the 5000 year prison term for mass murder/attempted mass murder.

    Tres amusing. However, I fear that what you have actually missed is my point. I am not talking about Bonnie needing to be convicted of crimes. I am talking about the personal, inner, consequences. The consequences that the Doctor carries with him. And that Bonnie, apparently, does not.

    #46679
    Mersey @mersey

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    For Bonnie, there was no remorse, no evident feelings of guilt, no…consequences.

    As well for Missy. That’s very doctorish.

    #46680
    Hudsey @hudsey

    @lisa

    spot on about mercy and forgiveness methinks, after all – the Doctor did also leave a confession dial when he thought It was his last day. Isn’t confession about being forgiven in return too? Allowing Missy to forgive him after he has gone, allowing her to move on perhaps? Seems forgiveness could be on his mind..

    Just on the Claradox. It occurred to me that entering the Doctor’s time stream allowed Claricles to spread throughout his timeline – his ‘natural’ timeline of his first set of regenerations. But I think a reason why The Doctor is growing sadder around Clara is because he has realised there can’t be any more Claricles the next time she dies. He is in a new cycle of regenerations, which she didn’t enter. He hates goodbyes.  This time when she dies it will be for the last time. In the other Claricles when they died, she seemed to gain her memories of her other selves just for a moment (‘run you clever boy, and remember’). I think she may have one heck of a collective memory at her final death, which will be difficult for both of them to go through – and the Doctor will be left alone again.. 🙁

    #46681
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @mersey

    As well for Missy. That’s very doctorish.

    I don’t think we can say the Doctor has a monopoly on guilt or remorse. Danny, for example, is just one example of a character who carries the guilt and remorse of his actions with him. And those inner consequences are enormously import.

     

     

    #46682
    DrBen @drben

    @blenkinsopthebrave – I understand the point, but what purpose would be served by punishing Bonnie?  Any action against her would cause more hostilities from the separatist Zygons.  The only path to peace involved a blank slate.

    Something else I forgot to mention earlier.  The Doctor’s throwaway line of “that’s what you said the first 14 times” (or something) is tremendously significant and chilling.  That means that the Doctor has been in that room, making that same impassioned speech, and that 14 times in a row, somebody pushed a button anyway.  That’s an all-too-true metaphor for high-stakes conflict resolution – a 1-in-15 success rate if you’re lucky.  The Doctor, thankfully, had a reset button, but that’s usually not the case.

    #46683
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @drben

    I understand the point, but what purpose would be served by punishing Bonnie?

    Dear me, it would seem I am clearly not explaining myself. Let me try again. I am not talking about the necessity for Bonnie to be punished. I agree wholeheartedly with the whole idea of forgiveness. What I am concerned with when I refer to consequences, are the inner consequences of guilt and remorse. The Doctor is a good man, precisely because he acknowledges his guilt and he expresses remorse. Danny was a good man for the same reasons. Missy/The Master never has been good.

    What concerned me about the way this story ended, is that we are meant to feel that both Osgoods are, well…good. But what is missing from one of those Osgoods is an essential quality that might have better identified her as good. The quality Danny expressed and the Doctor continues to express. The Afghan boy deserved to be remembered, and was. The children of Galifrey deserved to be remembered, and were. Jac deserved to be remembered.

    #46684
    DrBen @drben

    @blenkinsopthebrave – Ah I see.  I think we can assume that Bonnie/Osgood’s darkest days are ahead of her.  Nine was still able to be outwardly cheerful despite having just (apparently) slaughtered his entire race, but the guilt and remorse were there nonetheless.

    I think we can say Bonnie/Osgood is “good” because of the choices she chooses to make, regardless of what has happened in the past.  That’s all any of us can do really.

    #46685
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    Oh, gosh. I’ve already got into one major row about religion on this site this week; I’d really prefer not to get into Religious Row II – Grace Abounds.

    He is anguished and he is tortured, as he explains with great conviction. And that is my point. Those inner consequences are nowhere in evidence when it comes to Bonnie/Osgood

    The Doctor doesn’t feel forgiven. He can forgive Bonnie – it’s his ceasefire that she’s broken. But who can forgive him? Only another Gallifreyan, only someone on that planet when he pressed/nearly pressed that big red button. Except everyone on Gallifrey is now trapped in some other universe… apart from Missy, who doesn’t care about those 2 billion plus children.

    Since the Doctor doesn’t feel forgiven, he’s still anguished and tortured. Since Bonnie does feel forgiven, she’s not. She may, however, be remorseful, because she’s demonstrating a very practical attitude towards repentance, namely:

    • an acceptance of responsibility for her wrongful and harmful actions, (she personally orders all the Zygon terrorists to stand down)
    • a repudiation (disowning, renunciation) of the character traits that led to the wrongdoing and the resolve to eliminate the renounced character traits, (she stops being ‘Bonnie’ and becomes ‘Osgood’)
    • the resolve to make reparations—compensation to the victim—for the harm she has caused the victim and to make them whole again. (Since the dead are dead, that’s a tricky one. However, she can order that there be no further deaths and then dedicate her life to stopping future ‘Bonnies’ and so hopefully prevent other deaths).
    #46686
    Whisht @whisht

    Just catching up – really enjoying the thoughts on this two parter (and though I liked it, sympathies with those who thought there was something ‘off’ with the conclusion. For me I’m still trying to work out if the Doctor making them choose 15 times – until they ‘get it right’ – is actually the right thing to do….).

    But just because no one else has mentioned the one I’m thinking of, I think this week’s Tarot mention is…. The Wheel of Fortune.
    Mainly as “wheel” is mentioned by the Doctor, but also as the whole “which button to press?” is a TV ‘wheel of fortune’ style of dilemma (and Hughie Green of course).

    But also the Wheel of Fortune is (I think from reading the only book about Tarot I have!) about “new beginnings, a new start”, “the best way to work with the wheel is to accept its motion and try to live with what it brings”.
    Its about choices.

    But it also seems to reflect/remind us of the rise and fall of people, that change is constant.

     

     

     

    Oh, and rather than create two postings (and hog the activity updates!) can I just say how disappointed I am with recent troll activity.

    Barely registered a 2.5 on the Hayness Scale.

    tsk.

    #46688
    lisa @lisa

    @hudsey

    Yes, Could the ‘Great Intelligence’ be a threat to the Doctor thru this new regeneration set?
    Doubtful I agree. So is there a time limit on Claricles? Probably. This Claradox
    has to either end or evolve. Doesn’t feel like Clara will get some heroic end like previous
    companions. So maybe the hybrid idea was about Clara being able to evolve and continue to exist?
    For now I think we are being set up for a sad betrayal. But this Doctor will still always be all
    about mercy, even for Clara he will find a way.
    I know some people think she might still die saving the Doctor. Some little things tell me it will
    not be going down that way. It will be some other shocker.

    #46689
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @bluesqueakpip

    Oh, gosh. I’ve already got into one major row about religion on this site this week; I’d really prefer not to get into Religious Row II

    Fear not. It’s not a row, and it is definitely not about religion.

    And on that point, I shall move towards the Blenkinsop cellar, as the time of the evening warrants a quality drop.

    #46690
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    Hi all,

    There is a nice little interview with Peter Harness here, discussing writing for the show. I’m sure @blenkinsopthebrave will be delighted that his reference to Invasion of the Body Snatchers is confirmed as first and foremost in his mind as he was writing. The 1970s version which may delight @purofilion. Àpparently the inspiration for Amazing Grace. I have to say, I found the 1970s version impacted more on me as well. The isolation and paranoia in an urban environment spoke to me in a way that the invocation of small town America (in the original) could not.

    I’m particularly envious of members like @bluesqueakpip at the moment. Apparently every writer for Series 9 will be at the Doctor Who festival this weekend, which has never happened before. I’m sure that will be a fascinating panel.

    #46694
    misterhoo @misterhoo

    The treaty reached the brink 15 times.  This got me thinking.

    I am speculating that the Doctor, Clara, and Osgoods kept their memories each time.  If that is the case, you would think the Doctor would have already asked Osgood what her first name was.  I’m also thinking that is the 15th time he gave that speech.  So it better be good by this point.

    #46695
    Anonymous @

    @phaseshift

    thank you for that -great insight into writing. Actually, I also clicked, below, on an older interview with James Moran who did Pompeii, some Torchwood and some Primeval which Boy Ilion was into but by the 4th series, and with the loss of Doug Henshall, he became bored very quickly.

    It is spectacular to hear how writers ‘are heard’. How they pitch an idea, how much is sequestered and what the showrunner adds as clues or as ‘fine polish.’ Harness seems like a gloriously ‘normal’ bloke with lots of creative ideas and a very loose and relaxed attitude to the blogs which come out proclaiming various episodes like “kill the moon” were shit etc. He visits a school and the children thought that particular episode was their favourite and he was touched by that.

    I agree: seeing a roomful of writers and listening to the back and forths would be exciting. Writers are inherently different to actors and whilst it’s great to see Capaldi and Coleman and listen to them -the writers are the ones I really want to hear from. They’re the inspiration for it all.

     

    #46696
    Mersey @mersey

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    I must misunderstand you.

    Doctor is the one who let them go free. And that’s what he usually does. Saves the day and sets villainous aliens free (gives them a chance). I think that proves his superiority over terrorized and unforgiving humans (maybe that’s why he said Harriet Jones’s line; to bring her back and show that he’s different). But it was too much for me when he hesitated and let Missy escaped after all that pain she caused last season, this season and every future season.

    #46697
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    I think Clara’s fate is something that is likely to have been hammered as a possibility over and over again.  I think it will involve teaching children, and after seeing The Zygon Inversion, I now think she will be trapped teaching children in some sort of virtual or dream reality where she keeps detecting there is something wrong and is caught trying to wake from this false reality over and over again.

    But as has happened before to other companions, after this apparently horrible fate, I think there will be a revisit where the Doctor breaks Clara free and she can choose to at least die.  But then this time she chooses to willingly be a teacher to the children in this virtual or dream reality and thus finds a form of eternal peace.

    Now for who I think she will be teaching, take a look at the BBC approved spoilers forum for the link to the BBC synopsis for Heaven Sent.

    #46700
    Kharis @kharis

    @jphamlore You sort of described Charlotte in the Library to a degree.  Caught protecting the two children and back trying to manipulate the outside world through her T.V.  In every version she is taking care of two of kids.  She is always caught in a world were she is not clear until the end it’s not real.

    #46701
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @kharis: Yes, and after what happened to Amy and Rory, I strongly believe whatever the ending of Clara will be, it will involve something we have seen over and over and over.

    With Amy and Rory, it was always some time paradox that threatened their relationship, and would Amy in the end prove her love and actually choose to be with Rory at all costs.

    In The Zygon Inversion here is Clara once again in some sort of altered reality figuring out she is in an unnatural reality.   Just like Last Christmas which could have been Jenna Coleman’s final episode as Clara.  But the contrast I think was in Last Christmas, Clara was being offered personal happiness, the life with Danny Pink she never could have, whereas in this ending I think they will go with having her exit the show as a teacher.

    #46702
    Cybercat @cybercat

    @everyone

    Just a quick pop by for now. Thoroughly enjoying reading all the thoughts so far.

    Really enjoyed how this was pulled together.

    Noted a few things..

    How oddly distant Clara seemed to be when Bonnie/Doctor/Kate were resolving the Osgood box scenario. Clara showed little emotion and seemed a little smug or something like that? Not sure, need to re watch.

    It felt like the Clara that went back in the Tardis wasn’t Clara.

    But then Clara really has been quite emotionless throughout the series. Loosing her emotions becoming more like a Dalek?

    Loads of other thoughts but time ticks..

     

    edot – or more like the doctor?

    #46703
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    <span style=”color: #000000; font-family: Times New Roman;”>@bluesqueakpip, @mudlark- yes, it was a very different Osgood. I don’t know how that ties into their connection, unless it’s the fact that most people lose their confidence when they deal with the master- and as ultimate fan-girl, she would be as terrified by missy as she is bolstered up by the doctor. At the same time, the loss of her sister could have had an effect on her personality, although more self-confident seems counter-intuitive unless, as @bluesqueakpip says, she always was the confident part. At the same time, though, this was her area. Her peacekeeping, her box, this is where she matters. And yes, she does need to run away through time and space for adventures or to feel important- she is important on earth. </span>

    <span style=”color: #000000; font-family: Times New Roman;”>@Arbutus, @Mudlark- yes, I think the way she kept wanting to know is Osgood was a zygon at least means she has no such relationship of her own.</span>

    #46704
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    <span style=”color: #000000; font-family: Times New Roman;”>@jphamlore- but I think the point about the peace is that it isn’t dictated by the doctor. It was negotiated between Kate and the Zygon leader and for all we know included the clause: ‘the boxes will be a bluff to draw attention and Kate will have her memories wiped if she goes off message’. I don’t see any indication that the peace treated arrived at is the best, or ideal, but it is the one decided by both sides in ignorance of which side they would turn out to be on. So these are terms designed and affected by human Kate under the impression that she might be a Zygon, not what she would have reached if she had known, and vice versa. A vote wasn’t taken by the human population, it is a top-down decision, but it is one taken by humans, not imposed on them. </span>

    #46705
    Anonymous @

    @drben

    The Doctor’s throwaway line of “that’s what you said the first 14 times” (or something) is tremendously significant and chilling.  That means that the Doctor has been in that room, making that same impassioned speech, and that 14 times in a row, somebody pushed a button anyway. 

    Exactly how I felt. I’ve seen some suggest that this makes his speech seem deliberate and disingenuous, but it captures something meaningful about the precariousness of these kind of negotiations. Though, I suspect that the previous 14 times, he just made the general appeal to sanity, and his inclusion of his own Time War experience, in desperation, is what made the difference the final time.

    @jphamlore @blenkinsopthebrave etc

    Others have made much more insightful points about this than I will. But of course, if Doctor Who, a family show, is going to look into these issues, it’s always going to present a final message of idealism and optimism.

    The question of forgiving the terrorist does bear some relation to the real world. There’s the discussion of what to do with people who have gone to fight in Syria and return, or who claim to have had a change of heart- to use their experiences in the community to try and prevent others from following in their path, or lock them away forever regardless. And in domestic law- jailtime as vengeful punishment or as rehabilitation. Any of that’s hardly forgiveness, but you know.

    I think the Doctor’s blunt “Daddy knows best” is extremely telling in this episode. Ten, for example, might wax lyrical about how humanity has everything it takes to solve the situation. This Doctor entirely removes control of the situation from humanity and takes the actions he feels will most likely create peace. No, he doesn’t think that revealing the Zygons to the world is part of that, and yes, he’s probably right. Yes, that means not punishing the rebels, who would inevitably push back harder with bitterness (“cruelty begets cruelty”). I’m not sure that a lack of punishment dishonours the dead UNIT personnel if it’s a condition of peace, given that peace was their end goal (minus a few Zygons). And I think Bonnie does begin to show remorse in the Archive, and her change into Osgood, permanently appearing human and maintaining the peace, symbolises her desire to ‘repent’.

    @lisa
    The man who regrets, the man who forgets, the man who forgives, very good.

    @jimbomcmaster

    I think this scene represents quite an important part of the Doctor – he doesn’t simply hate villains because of the bad things they do, he is frustrated with them because he thinks they had it in them to make different choices than they have.

    Nicely put.

    @geoffers

    what if we’ve had the first female incarnation of the doctor on our screens these last three years?! 

    I think the bluff in Death In Heaven more or less rules that out. Could it have been a double bluff, technically yes, but I’d but a large amount of dough against it.

    I’m afraid I tend to think that all of the Impossible Girl stuff was over and done with after Name of the Doctor, and that Clara’s just a particularly intelligent and talented regular human. That said, I’d be surprised if there wasn’t some callback to it in her departure, and the question of why Missy wanted to put Clara & the Doctor together and keep them together hasn’t been properly answered yet, has it?

    #46706
    geoffers @geoffers

    @bluesqueakpip

    Yup. Extensively. Very intensively, in fact, before Capaldi’s casting was announced. I think most of us ‘Clara is the Doctor’ theorists took the Death in Heaven scenes with Clara claiming to actually BE the Doctor as Moffat’s ‘no, she bloody well isn’t.’

    thank goodness! i don’t remember all that, but it makes me feel better to know that others’ minds have been turned to mush, too. i’m just a little late to the party… 🙂

     

    #46708
    Cybercat @cybercat

    Just found this. Exciting. Looks like we will get the jigsaw pieces..

    No spoilers. Just a promo re Clara/who is she sort of thing.

    Awesome.

    https://www.youtube.com/embed/Ozqqs7NcvDE

    Apologies if should be in another thread?

    #46709
    django @django

    @Supernumerary

    I didn’t take the comment about 14 previous times to mean they had all happened then. Instead, I took it to mean that the cease fire had almost broken down 14 times previously.

    #46713
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @miapatrick

    the point about the peace is that it isn’t dictated by the doctor. It was negotiated between Kate and the Zygon leader

    plus the others present at the time.

    In The Day of the Doctor it is clear that this was what the Doctor intended, and presumably what happened.  I think, though, that in the agreement they came to the boxes were intended to be functional, and that Kate and all the others involved continued to believe that they were.  It was left to the Doctor, however, to create and supply them (for one thing, he was the only one who had access to the gas which was lethal to Zygons), and it was his decision, therefore, that the mutual threat they represented should be a bluff.

    In the stand-off, the Doctor’s words implied that the resolution which we saw was the fifteenth iteration, and in each of the previous fourteen Kate and/or Bonnie had attempted to use their box and discovered the bluff. Their memory of this then was wiped so that they continued to believe in the reality of the mutual threat and, from their point of view, everything reverted to the starting point.  When Kate finally decided on an alternative course of action, closed her box and stepped back, Bonnie hit upon the truth again, this time intuitively.  Kate then pointed out that the knowledge that they were an elaborate bluff meant that the boxes could no longer function as a deterrent to anyone wishing to break the peace, and so her memory of the fact, was wiped for the fifteenth time, as was that of the two Zygons who had brought Clara to the Black Archive.  Bonnie’s memory was not,  because the Doctor foresaw her role as replacement for the Osgood who died.

    #46719
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @miapatrick    I like your point that the treaty was negotiated by people who couldn’t remember which side they were on. This should actually make it a pretty good treaty, inasmuch as both sides are able to see things from two points of view, something that would be nice to have in real life!

    @bluesqueakpip’s comments about guilt and forgiveness were bang on, I thought. The Doctor also made the point that taking the first steps, breaking the cycle, was incredibly courageous, and it is true on both sides. Laying down of weapons, yes, but also rehabilitation rather than retribution. He understands perfectly well that our instinct is toward punishment, because of that same concern for “fairness” that Bonnie expressed. (BTW, didn’t her expression look just exactly like that of a sulky teenager? Coleman was fabulous in this!) @Supernumary, there’s also a community service sentence where former gang members visit schools to talk to kids about the risks of the gangster lifestyle.

    @django and others    As far as I can see, the only thing that we know for sure happened 14 (or was it 15?) previous times, was that the treaty broke down in some manner and the truth about the boxes was discovered by Kate. We are given no more details than that, and personally, I choose to believe that the previous situations were perhaps further from the brink than this time, simply because it would rob this story of some of its power if it has all happened over a dozen times before. IMO, anyway.

    #46721
    Arbutus @arbutus

    After rewatching both halves back to back, there are a few things that stood out for me.

    At the very beginning, in the video made by the Osgoods, they describe the Zygons as a peace-loving race who embed themselves in other cultures and live out their lives peacefully. I had missed the implications of this the first time around, but of course, we have been told before the action even begins that merging their identity with that of other races is normal for them, telling us that  Bonnie’s uprising is exactly as the Doctor describes it, a teenage temper tantrum.

    Osgood apparently went to Truth or Consequences before trouble erupted there. Was she there to check on the well-being of the Zygons hidden there, or did she suspect that it was about to become a flashpoint? It seems to have been around the same time that the little blonde Zygon commanders became aware of trouble, so I suspect the latter. And I must admit, I am still wondering why Kate didn’t take back up with her!

    As far as how Kate knew all that she did after taking out the Zygon trying to kill her, Bonnie called Kate, not the other way round. Kate was taken to the pod place by two Zygons. She saw Clara’s pod then, so that is how she knew where to take the Doctor. (How did people ever sort this stuff out before we had replays?  🙂  )

    Oh, and one more thing… why did the Doctor label the buttons “truth” and “consequences”? He can’t have known that trouble would break out in a town of that name, and the phrase would eventually become the motto of a dissident faction.

    #46724
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @arbutus

    Oh, and one more thing… why did the Doctor label the buttons “truth” and “consequences”? He can’t have known that trouble would break out in a town of that name, and the phrase would eventually become the motto of a dissident faction.

    I have been wondering about that as well. No doubt there is a logical explanation, but I cannot see it as yet.

     

    #46725
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    On another note, when the Doctor was trying to get Bonnie to think, and pointing out to her that she was having a childish temper tantrum, I could not help thinking how much the Doctor’s characterisation of Bonnie reminded me of of the way I (and, I suspect, most of us on this site) characterise a Doctor Who internet troll!

    #46726

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    I suspect that the idea of Truth or Consequences is built into the treaty as a failsafe, and that at the first sign of insurrection Osgood(s) set the scenario in motion by seeding the idea and location – in order to keep an element of control over events.

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