The Zygon Inversion
Home › Forums › Episodes › The Twelfth Doctor › The Zygon Inversion
This topic contains 252 replies, has 61 voices, and was last updated by 
Dentarthurdent 2 years, 11 months ago.
-
AuthorPosts
-
13 November 2015 at 21:03 #46890
Brilliant!
15 November 2015 at 09:35 #46974@Mudlark- no problem. This remains one of the most civil corners of the internet. I do need to re-watch, I’ve slightly lost track of my own argument… sorry to hear about your back.
16 November 2015 at 13:24 #47103Save a rather self-indulgent intro, you might find this on why young men joined ISIS interesting.
TL;DR – the Doctor nailed it.
16 November 2015 at 17:44 #47122I feel like my faith in humanity has been restored. after the events in Paris my instant thought had been CapDoc’s speech, so on a youtube video of the speech I said something along the lines of how we need to remember talking is the only way to end this, and it has 27 likes.
17 November 2015 at 01:19 #47151Anonymous @
@bendubz11 I would love to find my way to that youtube clip?
Good on you! I hope it gets 100s!
17 November 2015 at 01:29 #47153@purofilion Here’s the video! Happy watching!
17 November 2015 at 01:56 #47156I said something along the lines of how we need to remember talking is the only way to end this, and it has 27 likes.
28. In fact 29 now.
17 November 2015 at 02:31 #47162@bendubz11 thank you and @pedant
I went to the site. I shouldn’t have done thaaaat…..Because there’s some wierded out people -someone called Yesica1993 who believes that the speech is “leftist nonsense and ‘chatting’ with wicked people never works so we should bomb them.”
The example this twat used was the Paris tragedy. I asked her if she’d ever heard of the wars in Afghanistan (even in 1990), the Korean War, as well as the speech by Martin L. King who refers to a night wholly without stars as violence begets violence in a never ending spiral. I think I made the mistake of suggesting she was American (rather silly as there are millions of Americans -quite a few here! who don’t write as she did: “leftist nonsense”) due to the fact she needed to collate things as an infant -‘right’ ideas over here, and ‘left’ ideas over here: this person (from a show she clearly doesn’t recognise) must be speaking about not blowing people up therefore he is: a) talking shite and, b) is a leftie. Thus, he’s a wicked idiot and deserves to be blown up too.
Un-believable.
But good on you Mr Bendz. There were, however, lots of good and sensible comments like yours. I saw that Yesica whatever received exactly ‘zero’ -but I couldn’t leave well alone could I? I was a bit sweary because that always helps 🙂
It’s why I avoid youtube or, where possible, never ever go below ‘the line.’ It freaks me out -too many nutters.
18 November 2015 at 00:26 #47217This was a great second part to a wonderful story. Clara was very brilliant and was very smart. She was able to put the pieces together very quickly and very well. The Doctor and Osgood made a very good team and Osgood was just as quick as Clara. Peter has proven himself to be a fantastic actor, being emotion into his wonderfully wrote speech. Peter Harness and Moffat wrote the greats speech I have heard in a while, even better than one of Matt Smiths speeches, even though he brought emotion into his speeches as well. Jenna has also proven to be a great actor, or actress. She played a strict evil alien and a companion very well. Season nine really is the best season.
21 November 2015 at 16:22 #47422Sorry for being AWOL for the last few days – was very busy then got ill, probably from being very busy!
Anyway, this is great. Frank Skinner (you know, him who was in “Mummy on the Orient Express” last year) discussing this episode (well, a part of it). It starts around 13:45 and is well worth a watch.
2 January 2016 at 23:55 #49966Apologies for posting so many of these on the site but I see a lot of really interesting points about the episode here and would like to contribute a video discussing the reason the anti-war speech was so effective and speculation on how much Steven Moffat had pre-planned in this episode before passing the baton to Peter Harness.
15 January 2016 at 04:09 #50145My goodness, so much to read and too little time.
Please forgive me if this has already been covered and thrashed out.
I couldn’t come to grips with “three Claras?”
The Zygon “Clara” I get. Returning ‘the real Clara’ before opening the ‘boxes’ I get.
Who though, was the Clara who manipulated the Bazooka to bring down the Doctor’s plane and
was questioned by the Clara Zygon in her flat?
Is the Clara back with the Doctor, really Clara, or a Zygon?
Were the boxes really empty? We all know the Doctor lies. – I know you can’t answer that, merely a speculation on my part.
Loved Osgood, it was always my hope that she’d be his next companion.
All in all, I thoroughly enjoyed it.
11 March 2016 at 23:57 #51291So months later, rewatching in a hurry, and Capaldi’s speech has not lost a single photon of its power. But familiarity lets you admire the scenery a bit and the attention to detail is phenomenal – and Jenna Coleman’s acting as Bonnie is a small masterclass…er…mistress class.
12 March 2016 at 05:31 #5130416 March 2016 at 16:15 #51381I just saw “The Zygon Inversion”
Damn, it was sublime. 45 minutes gone in a flash.
Definitely the most political and provoking Who episode in a long time, bravo to Hartness and Moffat! A drama war with a strong and delicate moral thematic, the final speech of the Doctor was pure gold. No longer a series for kids.
Just a few weeks later in another review i talk about the Capaldi talent and the monologue moment of the Doctor, more and more often used by the writers in the twelve era….now, this, from the ”Zygon Inversion” maybe is not a monologue but yet again a masterpiece performance from the best Doctor ever! Capaldi gets better every weeks, i’m always impressed.
Also a great performance from Jenna Coleman in “Zygella”(xD) character….and Clara wow, more smart and cleaver in this episode! Now has saved the Doctor even in a telepatic-sleep state. This Doctor and this companion has elevated the series more than ever.I have a question/curiosity guys, now i’m near to the end! Just 4 ep left.
“Dark Water” from the season 8 is my favourite Who episode of all time! What should i have to expect from this finale?16 March 2016 at 17:11 #51382i also loved Dark Water but was not to impressed with Death In Heaven (Michelle Gomez was superb though) as for the finale I’m not going to give anything a way but for me personally it was a game of two halves!
17 March 2016 at 00:09 #51385More a game of three thirds 😉
17 March 2016 at 07:06 #51388I have to admit – at risk of being scalped verbally- that there were times when Danny got on my wick!
However, I do enjoy both the above mentioned.
Cheers,
Missy
17 March 2016 at 07:16 #51389@pedant
I keep forgetting about that I suppose you could say a game of three thirds. What surprised me this year was how each episode would go in an entirely different direction from the last! This I suppose made it more unpredictable which is a good thing! I’m sorry to say though that I was impressed with two of the thirds but the other didn’t really do it for me!17 March 2016 at 07:25 #51390If you mean, The girl who died, I agree. Nor did I take to The girl who lived.
Cheers,
Missy
17 March 2016 at 07:38 #51391@missy I was referring to the series finale there but I too didn’t like the Ashilder two parter, for me it was the weakest story of the series but then again I am yet to rewatch sleep no more which I wasn’t keen on the first time I saw it!
Under the Lake-Before The Flood has to be the highlight of the series and I liked the second part of the dalek opener and Heaven Sent was sensational! The Zygon two parter was good and I enjoyed Face the Raven as well!
19 March 2016 at 22:37 #51398thank you all guys!
Now, i can’t wait for the last episodes! This season is too good for now.23 March 2016 at 06:34 #51415It would be quicker for me to name the episodes I wasn’t keen on.
The girl who died/the girl who lived and sleep no more.
I’ve seen both of them twice, and still aren’t keen.
Missy
23 March 2016 at 07:14 #51416@missy Yeah good point and it’s always a good sign if it takes longer to write out the good ones! I think series 3, 5 and 8 are the only other ones from the new series that I can think of. Possibly series 1 as well!
29 March 2016 at 18:27 #51519Check out dailyboother.com a new social media web site.
29 March 2016 at 19:34 #51529Please go to dailyboother.com and like the Dr. Who video posts I posted. I have some haters that are trying to dislike and I need you fellow fans to support. Thanks for your help…!
23 April 2016 at 20:03 #51829A bit random, but I just want to talk about the Doctor’s amazing anti-war speech in this episode. I’m close tears every time I rewatch it. I hope to see more of this side of 12 in season (or series) 10.
24 April 2016 at 05:45 #51844@d-i-yana
Superb isn’t, as is Peter Capaldi.
He manages to transmit all the pain and anguish he has had to live with for centuries.
Of course, he has forgotten that he actually saved Gallifrey – or has he?Cheers,
Missy
24 April 2016 at 12:05 #51853Yes. How much does he remember about Gallifrey, I wonder?
Amazing how Capaldi can visibly express how much pain the Doctor has suffered through, not only losing his entire planet, but also all of the people who have lost their lives for him. A quote that seems to stick in my mind said by Davros is, “How many have died in your name, Doctor?”
25 April 2016 at 03:22 #51878@d-i-yana
He is extremely good at showing emotion. Yes, that’s quite a ine isn’t it. All the more powerful because it’s true.
cheers,
Missy
20 July 2016 at 14:30 #53349Ooooooo, that speech! Much as I love Doctor Who, and as moving as so many of Twelve’s episodes have been that’s the one scene that well and truly reduced me to tears when I first saw it. I should watch it every day, but I don’t. 😉
(Also, Bonnie the Zygon was my personal favorite of the Series 9 villains, not counting ones who were previously established such as Davros, Missy, et.al. And even then, she ranks pretty high.)
21 July 2016 at 05:50 #53377Me too, that the the hand kissing in “The Raven”. I literally had tears running down my cheeks, in the latter.
Missy
21 July 2016 at 09:52 #53379Send Best Rakhi Puja Thali Online to Elate Your Brother this Raksha Bandhan
Online rakhi delivery in delhi
Online rakhi delivery in kolkata
Online rakhi delivery in jaipur
Fests are usually finest enjoyed, any time all of the rituals as well as customs tend to be executed inside. In a similar, Rakhi is just not restricted to glowing along with metallic twine a normal puja thali comprising involving tilak is usually one more primary element of Raksha Bandhan party. In case most of us be put into customs, Rakhi is the festivity where sisters worship their particular close friend and also wish to help our god for his or her endurance. With no praise can be performed devoid of arti in addition to tilak.
To the far-away sisters, who wish to get a crammed give of the bro having elegant Rakhi, mailing Rakhi on it’s own just isn’t the whole obligation. If a stunning thali containing associated with roli and also chawal, as well as few puddings next solely you possibly can direct the item as a comprehensive Raksha Bandhan bundle. Sisters usually would like to gift the best for their bros that’s why many people expend time long out there in order to pick a best Rakhi thread. Consequently in the event Rakhi can be high quality you could start to this arti thali.
To be able to celebrate the actual mirth along with merriment in the festivity within an top notch approach, why don’t you pick a top quality Rakhi thali. Reasonably limited thali will be rock craved to maintain the actual style with the celebration. You will find every one of the necessary items with regard to puja from it, beginning with roli, chawal, chandan, quality branches for you to alarms each factor will likely be inside it solely. A premium thali won’t loom lovely although will certainly provide the many responsibilities with the rituals and practices.
30 July 2016 at 21:25 #53484Is Steven Moffat a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn?
31 July 2016 at 05:54 #5349131 July 2016 at 21:12 #53501I’ve never rated these two episodes very highly. I’ve rather considered them as superficial and childish. But there’s no point in denying that Doctor Who has always been rather politicised and leftie and those two episodes are very leftie.
I’ve been thinking a lot about the British Labour Party lately because of the turmoil in their ranks. And that made me think that this Doctor’s attitude to sit down and talk some very serious and delicate matters through reminds me Jeremy Corbyn’s policy. He’s the controversial Labour Party leader who called talk to people from such organizations as Hezbollah which for many is the terrorist organization (EU recognizes Hezbollah’s political wing as a party and military wing as a terrorist organization) or Sinn Féin before the peace process. That’s all.
3 August 2016 at 06:09 #535474 August 2016 at 03:57 #535554 August 2016 at 12:25 #535611 April 2017 at 06:36 #55937I’ve been meaning to mention this, but it kept slipping my mind. Did any of you spot the picture of William Hatnell on the door of the safe where Bonnie kept the computer?
Of course you did, just checking. *big grin*
Missy
25 May 2020 at 05:05 #707052 June 2020 at 07:14 #70725Very quick wasn’t it.
Missy
23 January 2022 at 12:15 #72845This starts off really well, with Clara waking up – the numbers on her bedside clock are reversed, her toothpaste is labelled ‘This is toothpaste’ (and is black) – her subconscious is trying to tip her off that her ‘world’ is being generated by the Zygon pod that imprisons her. Reminiscent of Last Christmas, but sufficiently different that it doesn’t seem stale. But Clara remembers – ‘dream checks.’
How the Doc and Osgood managed to parachute out of the plane (Union Jack parachute for ‘camouflage’ or not) is – impossible. But maybe the Doc did a Thing with his sonic specs. Osgood’s reasoning is pretty sharp – why did ZygonClara miss with her first shot and hesitate with the second? (We know – because of her psychic link with RealClara).
So then we have realClara playing Bonnie a bit like a puppet, to tip off the Doctor. And we get a lovely standoff between Bonnie and Clara – nobody beats Clara in a game of bluff.
And here we have Kate, or what looks like Kate, or is it ZygonKate? This can get tricky. But then she gets to say “Five rounds, rapid” and every Whogeek bursts out in applause.
And there are two Osgood boxes – and each one has two buttons. I love a good puzzle. And the red box will either kill every Zygon, or blow up the Black Archive and half of London. And the blue box will either unmask every Zygon, or freeze them in human form permanently. And then the Doctor gives the most impassioned anti-war speech that he has ever done. And somehow, it isn’t an anti-climax when Bonnie has a flash of realisation at the end, that “It’s empty, isn’t it?”
And there’s a lovely little scene at the end, with the Doc and Clara and Osgood. Both Osgoods, because Bonnie has now become an Osgood. But we don’t know which. (This episode was expressly designed to send obsessive fans who have to know the answer, screaming round the twist).
It’s noteworthy how far technology has evolved, that they can have two Claras, and even more so two Osgoods, on screen in shot at the same time, and the picture is faultless. A decade ago all sorts of ingenious camera tricks would have been required to accomplish anything resembling this.
So this was a cracker of a double episode.
P.S. @missy (following up on the last post in this forum) – yes I noticed William Hartnell’s pic, though I had to back up to confirm it.
25 January 2022 at 03:23 #72850@dentarthurdent These were excellent episodes. The speech the Doctor made had me in tears and if I watch it again I will cry again. It was very powerful and Capaldi is so good.
There was a lot of discussion back then about who was the real Osgood but I can’t remember if we ever knew the answer.
The cyberman binge may have to wait while I revisit these 2 episodes.
stay safe.
25 January 2022 at 07:51 #72852@winston I don’t think we were ever intended to know which is the ‘real’ Osgood – if, in fact, she’s even still alive. The Osgoods themselves don’t think it is a valid question. I wonder whether Steven Moffatt actually ‘knows’ – or has he never bothered to work it out (in his mind)? We know one of them is ex-Bonnie (but we don’t know which one); the other one must be either the ‘real’ Osgood or her Zygon duplicate. I *think* that means there is a 25% probability that an arbitrarily selected Osgood is the ‘real’ one. (Not a one-third probability, note)
10 September 2023 at 13:07 #74392Well I finally got round to the Zygon Invasion/Inversion. Second half of the double ep benefited noticeably from the Moff’s contribution, I think. He’s really good when he starts getting psychologically complicated, like having realClara linked to Bonnie’s mind. The Doctor’s antiwar speech in the Black Archive is powerful (again). I liked the reveal that he’s had to mindwipe Kate 15 times over the Osgood boxes – busy fellow, isn’t he?
I thought Bonnie’s transformation into Osgood was a bit of a stretch, but the writing helped to make it credible so far as it could – “The same thing that happened to you. I let Clara Oswald get inside my head. Trust me. She doesn’t leave.”
Is the Doctor’s first name really Basil? Never, remember Rule 1.
Parachuting out of a jet airliner is one of those things you cannot physically do. It was possible for airliners equipped with ventral airstairs like the BAC 1-11 or the Boeing 727 (as in D B Cooper’s famous attempt) but almost certainly not from a more recent airliner with only side doors. But I don’t mind glossing over that for the sake of the story. Possibly the President’s plane comes equipped with jettisonable doors and parachutes.
(Incidentally, I also just watched A Scandal in Belgravia, to my mind the best of the Sherlock episodes. More of Moff’s brilliance.)
12 September 2023 at 03:32 #74394@dentarthurdent I think this is one of my favourite two part episodes. I can watch it again and again and obsess over the Osgood question, cheer on Kate , wish the Doctor was President and cry over the Doctors speech.The writing is supreme.
I never notice stuff like the parachuting from a jet until the episode is over or until someone points it out. I am an easy audience when it comes to Doctor Who, I guess I just think the Doctor can do anything, even fly. I was even OK with the moon being a dragon egg, I just shrug my shoulders and think “whatever” and carry on watching. Talking dog people,sure, living statues,whatever.Bring it on, the weirder the better.
I love Sherlock and I wish it had gone on longer but it is one of those shows I can rewatch once a year or so.
I hope everything is good with you and the missus.
stay safe
12 September 2023 at 13:06 #74397@winston Well the parachuting from a jet didn’t bother me too much, it’s only a moderate improbability. I can also gloss over the fact that Bonnie sees the Doctor’s plane on radar over Belgium and gets to the coast on her little bike in time to shoot it down. (By contrast everything – and I mean every detail of the plot – in KTM was way over the max on impossibility. You’re a much more tolerant viewer than I am 🙂
I’m trying to work out what things I will readily accept and which ones will make my subconscious reflexively go “No, wait!” and bring my ‘willing suspension of disbelief’ to a crashing halt. After all there has to be some coherent rules or causality in order to follow the story. I think you gave a clue in “the Doctor can do anything, even fly.” Well he can with the help of Time Lord tech. And that’s probably it – in my conceptual Who universe, ordinary terrestrial matter behaves according to the laws of physics. Space Shuttles can’t land with no air, I can’t telephone back to last week or use my phone to teleport me. (Unless it’s been magicked by the sonic screwdriver). However alien or future human tech can do ‘supernatural’ things and it doesn’t worry me.
13 September 2023 at 05:47 #74398@dentarthurdent. The Doctor and other aliens can bend “the rules of reality” but those rules need to be fixed in order to bend. I think it was Moffat that said that the human world of Dr Who is our world only without a curious little TV show called Dr Who. that is also why stories that change our history bother me, ie the giant stompy robot striding across London in the Next Doctor Christmas Special. Moffat gets a get out of goal free card, (just) for the T Rex in the Thames because he explains why it is forgotten later and it does no damage, AT the time most people dismiss it as a kind of trick.
We deploy that same suspension of disbelief in most sci fi. The aliens have artificial gravity. No need to explain how that works. It’s alien. The aliens have found hyper space, no need to explain that, its alien etc etc. that is one of the reasons that sci fi appeals to us, it can bend reality without challenging our sense of reason.
I do hope that Moffat will find time to write the odd story or two for his old mate RTD..
Cheers
Janette
13 September 2023 at 07:16 #74399@janetteb I think you sum it up quite well. I notice Terry Pratchett is at some pains (on occasion, in his Discworld novels) to establish and comply with the peculiar laws of physics in a ‘strong magical field.’
The giant stompy robot bothers me a bit too. As does the dinosaur in the Thames, you can only carry the ‘somebody else’s problem’ concept so far. And what about the starship Titanic crashing on London? – I suppose that was an alternate reality.
But yes, fiddling with established history does worry me quite a bit too. I think ‘Vincent’ fitted in quite well, no cover-ups needed. Not too worried about Robin Hood because he was largely legendary (i.e. mythical), ditto various interpretations of King Arthur and Merlin. I do prefer it, though, when TV writers make the effort to fit in to history, or at least ‘hide their traces’ (or as Captain Jack would put it, the ‘self-cleaning con.’) One I liked was when ‘Hercules’ (the TV series that was made here) had just defeated Julius Caesar’s (unrecorded) invasion of Ireland, and Caesar’s faithful and presumably incorruptible scribe remarked that it was Caesar’s only defeat – ‘Caesar does not have defeats’ as the scribe disappeared overboard with a splash. So that’s why history doesn’t mention it – neat.
I’m trying to recall if there are any similar instances in Doctor Who of covering up. There was the Christmas Invasion which presumably was hushed up by the authorities. As was the attempted Dalek invasion in Victory of the Daleks (easier to do in wartime). Or, recent case in point, the Zygons – did UNIT just persuade all eyewitnesses it was ‘crisis actors’ or ‘performance art’ or Halloween? Then there were the Monks, but Moffat explicitly dealt with that – “we thought they were just like filming something here or something?” Really, Moff is very good at tidying up. The Silents of course are the embodiment of self-cleaning monsters. Oh, and of course that priceless exchange from Day of the Doctor on Osgood’s first appearance – “What’s our cover story for this?” “Er, Derren Brown.” “Again?” “Oh, we’ve sent him flowers.”
Which leads me to wonder if there are any real events in real history that no-one ever got to hear about. There probably are but of course by definition we’ll never know.
-
AuthorPosts
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
