Under The Lake

Home Forums Episodes The Twelfth Doctor Under The Lake

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  • #44247
    JimmytheTulip @jimmythetulip

    @purofilion

    Oh no. If I’m right then I believe Missy knows exactly who Clara is. I believe this was actually Missy’s idea in the first place, to cross her time line with a previous incarnation of herself (just as the Doctor(s) have done) and use the Chameleon Arch to de-Master-ise Clara.

    Missy knew that the Doctor wouldn’t kill her on Skaro. How? because Clara is Missy’s previous regeneration. She therefore knows exactly when and where Clara will die. And when Clara dies, if she’s not de-Chameleon Arched, then Missy never happens. So, Clara will become the Master again in her final episode!…. if I’m right.

    #44249
    Anonymous @

    @jphamlore

    Oh Shit.

    I get you.

    I knew of this symbol: but I never associated it with …anything “occult”.

    So, are you suggesting that the control panel with its rings -once set in motion – could be a Tardis-type pod?

    @lisa Yes: The Dark Lord? Did we have that last week? No? I can’t remember! Also, Harry Potter and snakes, you know.

    So, if the ‘person’ in the jaws of the serpent is wearing a skirt, then it’s Clara: about to ‘rise’ into something.

    Become something ‘new’? @serahni I’m still batting away this idea of “I was born under a clocktower”. Is there a clock tower anywhere near where they currently are under The Lake…?

    I can’t believe I was so stupid, before. I believe I actually asked the question: “Is this fresh water or sea water?”

    Nobody laughed at me. Nobody pointed out the title of the freakin’ episode. I must thank you all. I’m losing IQ points pretty steadily.

    #44250
    Anonymous @

    @jimmythetulip

    Well, this is interesting indeed. I follow you: Missy knows Clara isn’t going to die. She has to be as rude as possible to Clara because otherwise Clara would get suspicious. Are there other clues, though beyond the “I chose you” statement last year? In the 50th, all sorts of time ‘spots’ were opened up and Fez’ were thrown through etc…here these two individuals haven’t given us any warning that they’re connected in some way?

    Having typed that, I realise that evidently a) the tardis is pretty peeved around Clara in Under the Lake, and b) Missy says “the enemy inside a friend”  -or is it the other way around? She says this with great ding dongs of ‘portent’ so that’s interesting too….

    @lisa was it you who said this episode reminded you of “42” ? The fact there are masses of similarities: port holes, diving under things, base under siege, people being picked off…..etc…. And a black hole….type- thing (I’m really not good with black hole singularities or suns eating people 🙂

    #44251
    Missy @missy

    @purofilion He definitely says minuet, I clocked that.

    #44253
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @purofilion: When the Doctor takes off for the past with his two new companions (are they officially now companions since they will help him in his next adventure after traveling in the Tardis?), Moffat takes care to show a closeup of the ring of circles moving around the Tardis. I speculate these are not just for artistic decoration, they are mathematical symbols that bind the Eye of Harmony, the black hole singularity that powers the Tardis.

    I could barely make out some sort of symbols inside the circles on the control panel of the spaceship. The Tardis circle symbols seem to me to be entire solar systems, while I had the impression the spaceship symbols were more focusing on a star symbol.

    So I speculate the spaceship’s rings of circles when they are pressed in the right order start the rings moving and calibrate the spaceship to turn a star into a supernova and perhaps collapse its core to a black hole, and then control this collapse so that the singularity can be extracted.

    #44254
    Missy @missy

    @purofilion I’m sure that I shall keep enjoying the series. thing is, I though I enjoyed last weeks until I watched it again – then I wasn’t so sure.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #44255
    Missy @missy

    Clara does seem to be more daring than usual. In fact just bordering on manic.

    Perhaps that is what the Tardis is afraid of? Even the Doctor had to remind her that there was only room for ONE of him on the Tardis. Wonder what he meant?

    If this has been suggested already, sorry.

    cheers,

    Missy

    #44256
    Anonymous @

    @missy

    ah! Was it a  bit too dark? I get that.

    @jphamlore right: time for Watch Number 3 🙂 I’ll concentrate on the end part and the circles.

    #44257
    Anonymous @

    @jphamlore

    OK, so on re-watch. First a bit of a laugh, I had no idea the Doctor said “badges.” I thought he said there were “no socks or badgers until they were invented.” Of course, I just shuffled that off…

    Was Lunn left alive because his eyes were closed and thus was unable to receive a new transmission from the ‘ghosts’?

    When the Doctor says “My God, it’s delicious. Evil, I want to kiss it to death” the next thing that happens is the ‘ghosts’ control the flooding process -along those lines.  Did he choose those words deliberately?

    Is Bennet some kind of a traitor? A baddie? He’s holding an apple after all! 🙂

    @jimmythetulip We hear Clara say “you’re itching to save a planet.” Not far from Missy’s sentiments is it?

    @jphamlore OK, on the Tardis at the end: are you saying that watching the Gallifreyan symbols turn around as the Tardis moves backward in time, means something specific and is tied in to the circular control panel in the pod? I would think we often saw the Tardis’ symbols move like that last season. 🙂

    #44258
    Anonymous @

    right: @jphamlore – I re-read your post above and so I am watching what you’re seeing: how you get to ‘the eye of harmony’ is beyond me, but it’s bonkers theorising and that’s kinda the point! So, yes, they are his companions and I speculate Clara and the Doctor will be separated for most of the episode with a group of ghosts after them and no viable means to stop it.

    Having watched the entire episode 3 times with no mention of a serpent except for the stonking huge picture, we surely seem to be concentrating on serpents, pictures of serpents and dragons. Also -Merlin which is also way beyond me. I’m gonna banish myself soon for the good of the group. 🙂

    ConfusedPuro.

    #44264
    Brewski @brewski

    @purofilion

    I think Lunn is not killed because he has not yet seen the coordinates and so can’t chant them endlessly after he’s ghostified.

    He’s of no use to them, therefore.

    #44265
    Happinesspatrol @happinesspatrol

    The four words that are constantly repeated, how do we know that it starts with the Dark. It could start with any other of them. It there a pause between the temple and the dark?

    #44266
    Happinesspatrol @happinesspatrol

    Lunn was the only person who didn’t enter the space craft as deaf girl wouldn’t let him. Therefore he didn’t seen the 4 symbols. Is that why he wasn’t killed by the ghost? Or was it that his eyes were closed?

    #44267
    Happinesspatrol @happinesspatrol

    The doctor said the ghosts could only manipulate metal objects. Knives, axes, speargun, metal switch, spanner, and even when the corporate ghost was going to attack the group with a chair, it picked it up with its metal legs. Any theories?

    #44268
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    I think @purofilion was understating when she said people on the board were ‘on fire’. Lots of good stuff coming up. Will try to comment a bit later on a few issues, but I’m up in Whitehaven at the moment, relying on wi-fi in a town that just feels like the 1950s. Loved the picture that @craig posted though, so had to sign in.

    The beer in Wetherspoons is helping the creative process. 😀

    #44269
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @bluesqueakpip @juniperfish @craig

    Anyone else fancy some art criticism?

    I don’t know much about art criticism, but I know I’m a bit geeky. So here goes:

    The figures in the boat are yellow, red and blue. In Trek, Blue is the science/medicine colour across the board. In the original series yellow was command, red was disposable (hence ‘red shirt’ jokes). A little unfair as Scotty always wore red. In TNG era stuff, command is red, and engineering,security, etc are yellow.

    In considering the era of the painting, a big clue is present elsewhere in the episode. The flood door which closed on Clara was labelled 1701 b. The NCC 1701 b is the last of three Enterprise named ships Kirk captained. An Excelsior Class ship, used solely in the film Generations, which handed the baton from original series to next gen in the films.

    If you zoom in on the pic it’s actually got a lot of detail. Our Yellow Kirk is pointing at the crew member in the mouth. Our red Scotty is pointing at the perilous state of their ship. Our blue Spock, trapped in the Middle remains impassive (he was someone who tried to suppress emotions after all).

    The crew member in the mouth is also dressed in blue, seems to be female (or a chap who likes a skirt). So I’d suggest the painting represents the Doctor (as Spock) torn between a decision on the fate of his mirror companion, Clara, and his Ship, the Tardis. Perhaps an impossible choice like Treks Kobayashi Maru test.

    Generations isn’t well liked in Trek fandom because they killed Kirk, and it is a bit pants. It’s worth looking at in the context of this episode though. In it Kirk heroically saves people from the kind of spacial anomaly that plagues the show, but gets lost in it himself. He’s trapped in this kind of heavenly afterlife called the Nexus, and preserved from the ravages of time, to be called forth in an hour of need by Picard. Very Arthurian. So if this is an analogy, the Doctor is in the box is some sort of stasis.

    The ‘villain’ of the piece Malcolm MacDowell wants to join the Nexus and unleashes its power to swallow a planet (and potentially….the GALAXY!). It looks like a flood.

    #44270
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @jimmythetulip

    By all means post away re your theory that Clara is the chamelion-arched Master/ Missy!

    I think Missy’s behaviour towards Clara (calling her a puppy) rather belies that. Although I do think that Clara may well have Time Lord blood (esp be a descendant of the Doctor/ River).

    @phaseshift

    That Wetherspoons beer is clearly putting some excellent fuel in your tank!

    I like the idea of the Doctor torn between Clara and the TARDIS. And yes, I too thought it could well be the Doc in the porcelain coffin.

    A bloke who likes a skirt.. well that could be the Master/Missy, as a Time Lord/Lady. Although I don’t think Missy will show up in this story.

    Now we just have to fit the big snake-monster into the picture.

    I’d enjoy a story (I don’t think it will be this one) where the “monster” turns out to have been vastly misjudged and is in fact, all out to help. I supposed they played with the Ood in that way somewhat. But yes, it would be great if big snake-monster opened its scary jaws, blew fire, and then started philosophizing on the need for eternal galactic peace 🙂

    I clearly need a drink myself…

    #44271
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @phaseshift

    That is a brilliantly geeky bonkers theory. Which actually makes the Picard/Kirk movie sound better than it actually was. At this stage, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the porcelain coffin opens up to reveal William Shatner!

    #44272
    Brewski @brewski

    @jimmythetulip

    If Clara regenerates into Missy — well I think the only thing I will be able to say is “wow”.

    (And possibly “omg don’t soil yourself”)

    #44274
    PaperMoon @papermoon

    @fatmaninabox it could be that the words refer to other celestial objects, so ‘dark’ could mean a nebula, black hole or a dark matter object and in that case they could be co-ordinates – in the area of the black hole and temple constellation – kind of thing.

    @mudlark yes, I think you are right in that it seems unlikely that the Doctor’s explanation is correct given the reasons you stated, but the Doctor would be aware of this too – for the same reasons. Which is why I suggested he may have actually given a hint to the real answer (it does also tie in with the snake/dragon/wyrm theme). The thing is, why does the Doctor offer the explanation of Orion’s Sword etc to Clara and the crew in the first place, for who’s benefit is it? Clara’s, perhaps? Why wouldn’t he want his companion with him? Might there be someone else there/listening?

    @phaseshift I hadn’t even thought of “Generations”, 1701-B, cool.

    So, if we’re going to do Star Trek references, there’s the two-parter “Time’s Arrow” (Next Generation), in which time-travelling aliens from Devidia II travel back to 19th century Earth and start killing humans for energy. The means by which they do this is a device that looks like a cane and is in the shape of a snake, it actually transforms into a snake at one point. Another timey-wimey link is Guinan convincing Picard to go with the crew because if he doesn’t there will be an impact on the future  – ‘usually’ the Captain wouldn’t go on an away mission. Snakes and time travel links.

    Of course, it may have nothing to do with the stars at all.

    There is another Next Generation episode, “Night Terrors”, in which the aliens are sending out a request for what they want. In their case hydrogen – ‘eyes in the dark, one moon circling’ –  as it is required to fuel their ship – the fuel canister is missing from the ship on the Drum, perhaps a link?

     

    #44275
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    Anyone wondering why Doctor Who might be referencing Star Trek, it goes back a while. The creaters of both like to have a laugh. In Star Trek TNG: “The Neutral Zone”, an on-screen graphic of Clare Raymond’s family listed William Hartnell, Patrick Troughton, Jon Pertwee, Tom Baker, Peter Davidson, and Colin Baker among her descendants.

    It’s not very clear here, but you can kind of make it out.

    Doctor Who in Star Trek

    #44278
    PaperMoon @papermoon

    @craig I was aware of that. But, you’re right, it’s not going to be anything so obvious. 🙂

    #44280
    Whisht @whisht

    ok – not much to add to everyone’s bonkerising.

    Is Clara a chameleon-arched Misstra or Doctor? Who nose.
    Either way, Missy knows she can abuse herself/ the Doctor; The Doctor has a reason to keep Clara alive (even beyond the ‘duty of care’). Clara’s abilities could be either Timelord ‘spilling out’.
    And either way, the Doctor knows he ‘must’ cause her ‘death’ (ending of her personality) whne the arch is removed.

    and… Snakes / Dragons / Time = Ouroboros!
    (though the recursiveness of Clara is just coincidental…).

    The ‘ghosts’ are actually hollow. At least that’s how I saw the SFX. The eyes are empty and show the back of the skull. Which means they could be simply image scans of the outside of the person, recreated as an avatar. But with massive eye ridges and no eyes, because…. erm…. it wouldn’t be as scary.

    [ahem]

    @happinesspatrol – metal objects and control over/ via electromagnetic means. hmmm……

    What else… well…. still only watched it once!

    Oh – and really enjoyed it! 🙂

    #44289
    lisa @lisa

    @jimmythetulip
    In regards to your theory – it does make sense why Missy would have Danny knocked off.
    If she sees that Clara is getting too serious with him that would be inconvenient.
    Because what if Clara and Danny decided to get married? When Clara reverts to Missy
    Danny is still her widower? So how does that work? Missy and Danny as a couple. The 1
    that saves Earth and the 1 that likes to mess around with it. Weird much?

    #44290
    lisa @lisa

    Why did Clara say at the beginning of the episode that she left her sunglasses behind?
    Did the Doctor give her a special pair of sunglasses like he gave River a sonic?
    I wonder if that’s a thing

    #44291
    nerys @nerys

    Hubby and I watched the episode again last night. Chuckled anew at the flash cards Clara prepared for the Doctor (as well as her facial expressions), but our favourite laugh-out-loud moment was when the Doctor asked, “Anything else I should know? Someone got a peanut allergy or something?”

    Wish I could offer some sort of bonkers theory as to how this is going to be resolved, but I’m barely keeping up as it is. I love reading everyone else’s thoughts, though!

    #44292
    Happinesspatrol @happinesspatrol

    What ruptured the dam ? 3 people fighting a dragon type beast?

    #44293
    Happinesspatrol @happinesspatrol

    Who sent the message above for help using Morse code? Ghosts or someone who has no voice?

    Fascinating episode. Can’t wait for the weekend.

    #44294
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    Both Missy and the Doctor might be acting a bit crazy and eccentric while masking their true intentions. It seems to me this season the Doctor is a bit erratic, especially at the very beginning but with lingering effects. So I wonder, what would one do to get one’s affairs in order before going on a journey where one might be captured and die, or worse?

    It seems to me not only would the Doctor create something like his last will and testament to give to Missy, but he would make sure information he didn’t want know by his potential captors would be safeguarded. We have been seeing a steady stream of references at least since season 8 to the Doctor’s deliberately deleting his own memories, such as Time Heist and Last Christmas where he casually mentions he reflexively deletes memories of people unimportant to him. I am wondering if prior to going back in time to be found, the Doctor did a mass deletion and / or suppression of a huge raft of memories. Perhaps that is another reason for the Doctor to carry his new glasses as a link to the Tardis, a backup of information.

    The Doctor may have also deleted or suppressed knowledge of certain potential weapons such as the Hand of Omega and the Moment. I am seeing situations where the Doctor normally would investigate such as the control panel at the back of the space ship but where he does not. (He went for the control panels as the Fourth Doctor in Pyramids of Mars.) There isn’t that much else in the ship to look at that can possibly be a control panel. And the control panel has been shown in at least two shots, one with the corporate guy examining it with greedy looking interest and another a shot where the control panel is framed in the shot between Clara and the Doctor.

    Something I think is not right with the Doctor.

    #44295
    Anonymous @

    @lisa @jimmythetulip

    The 1 that saves Earth and the 1 that likes to mess around with it. Weird much?

    I absolutely love the bonkers idea, Mr Tulip, but my concern is that above: at the end of last season, Clara was standing in Danny’s cyberised arms whilst tears ran down his face. The Doctor spoke of something which Missy never understands, ‘the power of love;’ that he, Danny, will do anything to protect and love Clara. He chooses to fight with the Brigadier and others in order to save the earth rather than be an “army for the Doctor” (as Missy intended). I find there are inherent contradictions between Clara and Missy. Clara is certainly mourning Danny’s loss already -though I sense she’s trying to keep it together: after all, she saw him one more time after the dreadful road accident.

    Having said that, I’m forgetting that the kindly professor in Tennant’s and Martha’s episode turned into the Simm Master and was almost as devilish as Roger Delgado (OK, not quite as devilish. OK, nowhere near as devilish but you get my point). He was completely different from his pre-chameleon arched self so therefore it’s not without precedent that a Master/Missy could be the total opposite of his or her ‘other.’

    Keep on with that bonkerising Mr T!

    @lisa I also thought of that line of Clara’s when I re-watched it: “I left my sunglasses at the beach.” When Clara mentioned the people with really long necks I flashed on the flesh (LOL) recalling their hideous metamorphosis. I don’t think Clara is ‘flesh’, as it were, but there’s something is definitely up with our little Ophelia.

    @phaseshift You’re past being “on fire” -you’re combusting! Excellent spot of the Trek connection  – 1701 b. I was reminded of Trek when I saw the figures in the painting although a bigger clue for me should have been the narration at the beginning!  I admit to watching Trek -and even hosting occasional Trek parties at university  -but rather like Wagner’s Ring Cycle bashes, I was usually a tad drunk within the first hour and so I’m no Trekky guru. But for Trek and its followers, I have deep respect, man 🙂

    @whisht

    Clara’s abilities could be either Time lord ‘spilling out’. And either way, the Doctor knows he ‘must’ cause her ‘death’ (ending of her personality) when the arch is removed.

    Interesting; so, Clara can still go on living beyond the chameleon arch removal  -depending on the severity of her ‘position.’

    Definitely, Clara’s urge for “saving a planet,” saying “run” or “they appear to be arming themselves” with the Doctor responding to her -rather than the companion being the reactive one, suggests a Time Ladyness. Although, I do wonder if Danny’s loss has caused a severe depression leading to a breakdown: if she dies, then so be it, she’ll die doing something fun. Even the throw-a-way line about “losing quite a  lot of her dignity” during their last adventure suggests a person struggling with significant emotional loss. She appears to have no great attachment to her own father anymore and her grandmother is the only other family she trusts. Then again, there are those on the Forum (and I’m leaning this way myself!) who think Clara’s life is strangely empty -devoted to teaching, sure, but her life without the Doctor is not exactly fleshed out. I’m desperately trying to work out if other recent companions were in the same situation.

    For what it’s worth I shall commit to this theory: River and the Doctor are Clara’s parents. The pictures of Clara as an infant at home (but not in the hospital) suggest something ‘off’ about her ancestry. I recall an episode with Smith, Amy and Rory, where a  child calls the Doctor as he’s frightened of the ‘things’ alive in his closet. The parents are certain he’s their child and in the end, the Doctor explains either hypnosis or a perception field** contributed to their easy acceptance of this young boy in their life. Last season, in The Caretaker, the Doctor spoke of River and a ‘row’ during which time he lived with otters -I swear he said otters, so there’s specific mention of River….again….

    ** I’m not so sure of hypnosis in that episode  -@Bluesqueakpip might be able to set me straight on that one.

    Onwards!

    Puro.

     

    #44296
    Anonymous @

    @jphamlore

    something not right with the Doctor” -interesting, interesting…. I’m curious. The Doctor lost sign language in favour of semaphore. Certainly, there is the notion of a newly conceived time lord with an entirely new cycle of regenerations experiencing emotional and intellectual confusion-could this contribute to necessary deletion? He still has the memories of 11 and now with a prospective 12 more….could his brain explode? A TL’s mind has the capacity of a Tardis -almost – but we know that it can’t be good if, during the cooking process (The Christmas Invasion), he’s ‘disturbed’ in some way.

    In Deep Breath we saw a very unpredictable, almost insane Doctor -for the first 30 mins anyway 🙂

    If however, the Doctor has somehow ‘died’ in Under The Lake, is everything he’s said and done (or lost and found) be connected to this ‘event’ horizon ?-I don’t see the Doctor as living in a linear fashion the way we live and the Eye of Harmony theory might tie neatly into this.

    Now, taking your Eye of Harmony idea, from yesterday, is it possible that the pod’s control panel has a perception field which will only affect Clara and the Doctor -if they’re related -and not just “the Doctor and Clara in the Tardis, same old same old”??

    Pritchard seemed to be unaffected -after all, as you say, he was “greedy.”

    Just back to my pet theory, pet, but when the Dr says “same old same old” in The Witch’s Familiar: is he speaking familiarly -as in relating to family? The Doctor and Clara both being ‘old’.

    @happinesspatrol (great tag line,btw!)

    yes, I broached that idea too -that Lunn didn’t open his eyes therefore he couldn’t be a ‘receiver of the transmission’. In one way, he acts as a vessel too.

    #44297
    JimmytheTulip @jimmythetulip

    @purofilion

    I respect your right to doubt. I collect a sizable amount of “clues” that I’ve posted in my blog on the subject. Feel free to read them if you haven’t already.

    http://martinstenersen.blogspot.co.nz/2015/10/a-crazy-clara-theory.html

    You said it yourself, Professor Yana was nothing like the Master, yet he was the Master. Likewise, the teacher, John Smith, was nothing like the 10th Doctor either but we all know where that went…

    Regarding Clara’s mourning for Danny, she’s not. She’s well and truly over it. This is also substantiated by a comment Steven Moffat made on the subject and I’m buggered if I can find the link to it now. But he essentially said something like: Clara has moved on from Danny’s death. Like she said she was not really very good at relationships anyway. Seem a bit cold? Yes, it does. Cold enough to be a Master-ish type of respond? Why, yes, it is.

    Steven Moffat has also said that “the mystery surrounding Clara has not yet bee resolved… it’s almost like it’s building to something”. I’m paraphrasing but that’s the gist of what he said.

    I will keep looking for those clues and add them to my blog as until we get to “Face the Raven”…

     

    #44298
    spacedmunkee @spacedmunkee

    Hey guys,

    Newly joined but long time follower.

    Is there a connection between the serpent on the wall and the location of the base? The base is in a “loch” in Scotland. . . right??

    The doctor has had some experience with giant monsters in Scotland before. It will be interesting to see how far back in time the doctor travels to arrive before the flood – will it overlap with the 4th doctor’s adventures with the Zygons in the mid 70’s?

    #44299
    Anonymous @

    @happinesspatrol

    Who sent the message above for help using Morse code? Ghosts or someone who has no voice?

    Yes, except ghosts have no ‘voice’ either! Except I see who you’re getting at 🙂

    @spacedmunkee

    Hello and welcome -glad that you decided to post!

    @jimmythetulip

    Oh, no, I’m not doubting you at all -in the end, I reminded myself of the exact thing you mentioned -Professor Yana -a kindly, sweet, slightly doddery fellow -an “enemy inside a friend”, no less.

    I will certainly read your blog.

    I believe bonkerising is the key to this Forum: I tend to observe rather than create theories (and that’s down to my lack of imagination, like Ruby from last season!).

    Really? I missed Moffat’s comment about Clara no longer in mourning: I reckon she is still is, actually. I know Moffat peppers his interviews with a fair amount of fibs although I can see that this lack of emotion could be Time Lordy. Or is it?

    However, I hope you haven’t reached some conclusion that I’ve put you down in some way? – that wasn’t my intention. I believe we’re all friends here 🙂

    Kindest, puro

    #44300
    lisa @lisa

    @jimmythetulip @purofilion

    Clara said she was born under a clock – like in a fob watch/chameleon arch?
    Except in Clara’s case it might actually be a clock. In any case I still
    go with what River said which was if she goes into the time stream she would
    die. That means it can’t be Clara that survived.

    I mightstart to read up on some raven Mythology. There is a lot of Raven stuff
    surrounding Clara too such as her mothers maiden name. Then when we get
    to the ‘Face the Raven” episode I think we will be getting very close to the truth.

    #44301
    JimmytheTulip @jimmythetulip

    @lisa

    Oh yes! I’d forgotten her mother’s maiden name was Ravenwood…

    #44302
    JimmytheTulip @jimmythetulip

    @purofilion

    Oh no, no. I certainly haven’t felt like you’ve put me down at all. There have been people who’ve disagreed with my theory despite all the evidence I’ve collected (fools! 😉 ) and I truly do respect peoples right to disagree. In fact, the more people throw up reasons why I might be wrong simply spurs me to finding even more evidence. 🙂

    #44303
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @purofilion: I must confess I find some of the Doctor’s behavior in this episode completely inexplicable, although I am sure someone can dig up precedents in the Doctor’s long history. But it is as if the audience has been trained by Moffat by Moffat’s own earworm so that the audience can’t see it until possibly later in the season. 🙂

    The Doctor has encountered plenty of phenomena that looked like they might be ghosts but from what I recall never blurted out they might be ghosts. What does that actually mean? In fact everything in this episode points to there being some scientific and not supernatural explanation for these ghosts including their interactions with the electromagnetic spectrum. This part might be explained by the earworm.

    There have been several Doctor Who serials where the whole point was to get to the control room. Here the Doctor is in a spaceship whose interior looks like it was designed by the spaceship designer equivalent of Sir Johnny Ive. (It’s all white with no seats or seeming padding or decoration on the walls.) What else could be used to control the ship or its records other than that control panel in the back? That control panel stands out about as much as the click wheel on an iPod classic. And wouldn’t the best way to figure out the spaceship’s original mission be to try and access its records?

    In the context of classic Sherlock Holmes, talk about a dog that doesn’t bark in the night. In another series I would expect Capaldi to break the fourth wall and start lecturing the audience in part 2.

    #44304
    JimmytheTulip @jimmythetulip

    @jphamlore, forgive my ignorance but what exactly is meant by “breaking the fourth wall”? This is the second time I’ve seen that term today…

    #44305
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @jimmythetulip: Breaking the fourth wall to me is the character acknowledging and directly addressing the audience. In this context, not that I think this has any chance of happening, that would be Capaldi addressing the TV audience wondering why no one noticed the Doctor was acting so strangely.

    I welcome reading your theories. Since at least 99% of what I speculate will turn out to be sheer nonsense, I at least have no right to throw stones at anyone else’s theories. 🙂

    Missy I believe in the first two episodes is clearly training Clara, trying to uplift Clara’s ability to think in new situations like a Time Lord would think.

    This forum has some of the best and most fun discussion I have seen on any Internet forum.

    #44306
    JimmytheTulip @jimmythetulip

    @jphamlore, Aaahhh! Thank you. I understand.

    I’ve not  been here long myself but the people who frequent this forum all seem to be wonderful and their theories are great!

    #44307
    Anonymous @

    @jimmythetulip

    we really are on fire! In 10 mins there’s 7 more posts! :rubs hands with glee:

    I’ve been to your Blog and left a long response: great stuff. Truly. I still want to stick with my theory because rather, sadly, I’ve never had one (that sounds pathetic but true!). Nonetheless, I can see that @lisa‘s reminder of that damn clock (sorry it’s been on my mind since the Time of the Doctor!) and @serahni‘s idea that the Clock could be some HUGE fob watch (aka Big Ben) suggests that Clara’s got an enormous fob clock which contains everything and most importantly, is the:

    da da dun:  chameleon arch.

    I mean, people, look at the clock in the opening credits. 🙂

    @denvaldron and I were talking about the fiercest monsters in Who which turned into what our personal ‘mightmares’ happen to be: mine is the concept of eternity and now, thanks to Doctor Who, it’s endless ticking clocks and fob watches. 🙁

    @jphamlore

    So, the Doctor knows to jolly well stay away from the control panels? Perhaps they will connect to Clara in some way and he’s suspicious of what could happen? He’s aware of the concept of a hybrid Clara/Master/Doctor? Or is there a perception filter that works in the presence of certain species?

    Or as has been suggested by greater men and women than I…the Doctor believes there’s a traitor on board and he wants people to think ‘ghosts’ -the Doctor lies to protect others, to protect a great secret….

    By saying ‘ghosts’ they (the crew) are all thinking exactly the same thing -like an earworm –  thus they won’t think about what the ‘ghosts’ really are….

    @lisa what’s the Raven connection? is it connected to tarot? This is something I know zilch about….but it’s beginning to sound awfully important!

    @jimmythetulip

    one breaks the 4th wall when we, the audience, are ‘spoken to’ -the Doctor looks right at the camera and ‘speaks to us’. It occurred in Moffat’s Sherlock a few times. As for its history in film that’s a tougher question (you didn’t necessarily ask that, but that would be my next question….:) )

    #44308
    JimmytheTulip @jimmythetulip

    @purofilion, I’m perfectly happy to put a small wager on it with you, puro… I may be half a world away but shall we put a drink on it? (we’ll work out the logistics later). 🙂

    #44309
    Anonymous @

    Ah @jphamlore @jimmythetulip

    apologies: I answered the question about the 4th Wall and our posts crossed mid-time stream 🙂

    @jphamlore  -yes, you said the Doctor “blurts” out ghosts. Why? He’s fibbing! He’s trying to flatter them: is there something odd about the Corporal (Morven Christie?) -when the Doctor says “great idea, putting it in Morning Mode,” she does go all “blushy and shuffily” -she desires flattery? I mean from the Doctor, who wouldn’t?

    @lisa your statement explained things somewhat: “Then when we get to the ‘Face the Raven” episode I think we will be getting very close to the truth.”

    Is that OK on this thread? Eek.  🙂

    Onwards!

     

    #44310
    Anonymous @

    @jimmythetulip

    In Oz, we say: “you betcha mate.”

    Actually, I never ever say ‘mate’ or ‘you betcha’ but I’m connecting to my Australian/Czech heritage.

    So yes, let’s!!

    This means I’ll lose: because I’ve never been right, but it would be great to know someone who has it right on the money and if it means my damn clock theory is right -or 1/10 correct, then it’s worth it: “I was born next to a clock tower/under a clock” was said by Clara in The Time of the Doctor on Trenzalore when the truth field was in operation.

    Ah, we have the truth field!  But a chameleon arch would very easily suppress a truth field? Except the truth field was Gallifreyan or Time Lord and a chameleon arch is also Gallifreyan/TL tech. Hmmm.

    A puzzle (but that can be got around!)

    #44313
    Anonymous @

    @phaseshift

    does Whitehaven have an unusual Russian church? Or a Dam? 🙂  even a nuclear plant?

    I’m pretty sure it does.

     

    #44315
    ichabod @ichabod

    @purofilion   “no socks or badgers until they were invented.”  That’s what I thought he said, too!  

    and Or …the Doctor believes there’s a traitor on board and he wants people to think ‘ghosts’ -the Doctor lies to protect others, to protect a great secret….By saying ‘ghosts’ they (the crew) are all thinking exactly the same thing -like an earworm – thus they won’t think about what the ‘ghosts’ really are….

    I like that.  I’ve been wondering about his behavior being a bit exaggerated re the nature of the “ghosts”, too, and wonder if he’s performing believing in their ghost-ness for reasons of deception.

    @whisht  The ‘ghosts’ are actually hollow. At least that’s how I saw the SFX. The eyes are empty and show the back of the skull. Which means they could be simply image scans of the outside of the person, recreated as an avatar. But with massive eye ridges and no eyes, because…. erm…. it wouldn’t be as scary.

    And skullified faces, sort of.  But yeah, they don’t seem to have any autonomy but move like robots part of the time, wheeling around in synch and that kind of thing.  More like a waldo, maybe, operated by — the spaceship’s master programming?  One of the waldos’ originals, in stasis but directing things from there?

    @phamlore  I am wondering if prior to going back in time to be found, the Doctor did a mass deletion and / or suppression of a huge raft of memories. Perhaps that is another reason for the Doctor to carry his new glasses as a link to the Tardis, a backup of information.

    Oh, neat!  Very bonkery.  So what would he have deleted, and why?  We know he’s deleted sign language and replaced it with semaphore (what?  That’s a very weird substitution, IMO).  But could he trust the Tardis to do her part if he needs info back up, seeing how recalcitrant and fidgety she’s made by the ghosts . . . ?  More likely he’s lost a lot of memories in the regen process leading up to this massive new serving of regenerations and had no hand in choosing which went and what came in their place — a very handy device, if so, for the writers, but also another set of changes to have to keep track of.

    #44316
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @jphamlore

    The Doctor has encountered plenty of phenomena that looked like they might be ghosts but from what I recall never blurted out they might be ghosts. What does that actually mean?

    I suspect that this is a deliberate piece of misdirection on the part of the Doctor.  The things have the stock characteristics of ghosts as many people conceive them: they resemble dead people, they can walk through walls, they are semi-transparent and they come out at night.  For some reason (mistrust?) he does not want the crew to speculate too much about what they really are, or to know what he is really thinking, therefore he calls them ghosts. If we, the pudding-brained viewers, can see the pointers to what they really are, it is hardly likely that he really thinks that they are the dead returned  🙂

    As for his apparent lack of interest in the possible control panel, it could be that he does not want to investigate or to have anyone else taking too close an interest until he has gone back  in time to just before the site flooded and found out more about what was going on then.  To meddle before he has further information would be too risky .

    #44318
    Anonymous @

    @purofilion

    Really? I missed Moffat’s comment about Clara no longer in mourning: I reckon she is still is, actually.

    Agreed, especially the scene in the TARDIS- Clara’s seemingly obvious ‘I’m telling you I’m fine, but I’m really not fine’, suggesting, as others have said, that her new recklessness is a direct response to her loss.

    Ah, we have the truth field! But a chameleon arch would very easily suppress a truth field? Except the truth field was Gallifreyan or Time Lord and a chameleon arch is also Gallifreyan/TL tech. Hmmm.

    You would think that a truth field could only make someone state the truth as they believe it to be. A chameleon arched Clara personality would believe herself to be telling the truth about her origins and would pass the truth field, seeing as she would have no knowledge to the contrary until introduced to the fobwatch. The bit about about the arch also being Time Lord technology is a fair point. But I’m inclined to think it comes down to the truth as you believe it, the implications of anything more than that would begin to expand very fast, I think.

    #44320
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @jimmythetulip

    Catching up, so apologies if someone else has pointed this out.

    This is also substantiated by a comment Steven Moffat made on the subject

    The Zeroth Rule of Who: Moffat lies. We have it in writing (the DVD notes for Series 5); he will lie to protect a plot point. Currently I’m rather suspicious of his explanation of the Sonic Sunglasses (‘just because we could’).

    But Clara isn’t quite over Danny. She’s partying like crazy and brushes off the Doctor’s suggestion that she start dating again. And you just know things are getting desperate when the Doctor suggests that he would actually feel happier if you had a boyfriend…

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