Wish World

[Craig @craig Emperor]

It looks like this story has almost everyone from both series returning. Ruby and family are back. Conrad’s in the mix. As are Kate and Mel and Susan Triad. And, of course, Mrs Flood (or “a” Rani) and The Rani.

In the first of two parts, traps are sprung and old enemies unite as the Doctor and Belinda finally arrive home to find a very different world. Can the Doctor see the truth before midnight arrives?

This is written by RTD and is directed by Alex Sanjiv Pillai who directed “Joy to the World”, the 2024 Christmas special.

[Craig @craig Emperor]

I just read on t’other place that next week will not be dropped early but will be available everywhere only at terrestrial broadcast time on the BBC.

So I think we are all vindicated in waiting until broadcast, like in the old days.

And I do agree with many of Martin Belam’s comments. As soon as it started I thought “WandaVision”. I can’t judge right now. Will wait until next week. But plenty to go bonkers over.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

First thing to say is…

All hail to @whohar 🙂

(Now I need to go and gather up the bits of my exploded brain before commenting further! And I’ve booked my cinema ticket for next week)

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@whohar

As @scaryb says, all hail! In essentials you to have evidently acquired powers of foresight or prophesy.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@whohar, are your amazing powers of prediction the result of that very long time you once spent in the bath?

(you have to have been on this site from the time @craig set it up to make sense of the above sentence.)

[ScaryB @scaryb]

As @blenkinsopthebrave says

@whohar, are your amazing powers of prediction the result of that very long time you once spent in the bath?

I’m sure Douglas Adams would wholeheartedly agree with the power of a long bath! (And as always The Muppets are appropriate!)

https://youtu.be/Mh85R-S-dh8?si=5wdNCShsTzj8QbnB

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

The Mind has been Robbed.

The Architect is Great and has been Busy.

Omega is Handy.

Omegeddon!

Slightly ho hum. But only slightly. No Fam to speak of. So that’s a good thing.

But why Conrad? Ain’t he just this guy, you know? I really don’t want him to be The Master.

And gods, gods, gods, gods… they get everywhere, don’t  they? Was this cute ickle chuckling Wish God even on the listy list? I must have gone to sleep a year ago, but that’s what Sunday Lunch with the Unit Fam does for you.

Well, this is The Deadly Assassin/Ultimate Foe problem isn’t it? When does Mike Yarwood declare ‘and this is me!’ then sing slightly flat? Cos really Mike, we had no idea at all.

Erm… so we ain’t actually SEEN Old Mother O’Mega yet have we? Though he really rocks nonexistance and willpower, I understand. Can I also observe that The V’linx was absolutely nowhere to be seen, and Ruby is as apparently Real as anything can be said to be? Also, Shirley, you cannot be serious. And there was no 14. No Donna. No Rose Noble.

Also… was it me or was there something odd about 8 in the incarnation flash?? 14 picked 8 clubs for The Toymaker didn’t he? Wouldn’t it be great to have I reunited with Withnail? Also Ruth was shown post 13. And no 14 at all.

Otherwise… yellow mugs. Yellow bins? Micky was chased by a wheelie bin. Enormous skeletal dinosaurs? Enormous arachnidy sky palaces? We’ll have cars suspended from hot air balloons and steam trains barrelling through pyramids next.

So, next week could be anything. I predict fun and War Games because… 31st May = episode 7 of TWG in 1969. However… this is NOT another one and only broadcast. For some reason I have now completely forgotten, NuWho series 4 skipped May 24th and went straight to May 31st with…

Silence in The Library!

Hmmm. Yes. Is Rogue a projection not of Jack but River?? Didn’t I say ‘dot’ looked familiar? And the nasty arthropod/slugs might be somewhat Vashta Neradish??

If not it will just be lots of running around, scenery chewing, SIDRATS and a man in a kilt.

Should be better than The Umpire of Dearth, anyway.

 

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

Still processing this one. In all sorts of ways we are definitely in the land of fairy tales, with a wicked witch, the seventh son of the seventh son, a baby with magical powers, etc.

Poppy is clearly of great importance. She was there in “Space Babies, she was there briefly at the end of “The Story and the Engine” and now she is here, as the child of the Doctor and Belinda. As the Doctor, his memory coming back, shouts at the Rani: “Poppy is real! Don’t you see what that means!?”

I think those are the words, but need to re-watch it.

I liked the meta element, in that the the TV show itself was woven into Conrad’s story.

However, beyond shouting back at Conrad: “I don’t accept your reality”, I think I need to think about it a bit more. So, back after the second glass of wine…

 

[winston @winston]

@blenkinsopthebrave   I am sure that is what the Doctor shouted on his way down.Poppy is some how important in all this but smarter people than me might figure it out or we wait till next week.

This was a very full episode with so many people and so much strangeness. This might be a 3 pipe problem( in a long hot bath). One thing that I wasn’t surprised  at was Conrad’s 1050s wish world with women who stay home and tend the babies and absolutely no gay people and all the men going off to work in their suits and hats. Of course that it is how he wants the world to be but it is all wrong, a delusional world for a delusional man.

Why did the Doctor forget who he was? Is this was a story in a story about a story? Am I real? Boom! My head just exploded.

I have only a vague idea of who Omega is. There I said it. My old Who knowledge is thin so I am off to do some research.

@whohar My hats off to you.

stay real

[janetteB @janetteb]

this is probably nonsense as I am two episodes behind but on reading the review in the Guardian I wondered if Jo Martin doc is going to turn out to be the result of a bi generation that way she becomes canon while the overly complicated and “baggy” backstory is quietly forgotten? Personally I think that would be a good way of keeping what is good from the chibnell years without taking on the entire rewrite of who history.

I know I should not be theorising before watching and this has probably already been suggested so ap9logies. I have nto read all the posts either. Not really keeping up at the moment. It is a delayed pleasure.

cheers

Janette

[WhoHar @whohar]

Well lots going in this episode along with some rather (unsubtle) messaging about othering and the dangers of a totalitarian state.

A bit of a strange ep with the Doctor not being the Doctor for most of it, which does rather take away from a show called Doctor Who.

Lots of invention and, yes, @winston, Conrad’s wish is for Britain to return to an “idealised” traditional, simpler time (that never existed), so he is a cipher for many influences we see in the modern era.

@janetteb

I wondered if Jo Martin doc is going to turn out to be the result of a bi generation that way she becomes canon while the overly complicated and “baggy” backstory is quietly forgotten?

I really like this idea. I wonder which Doc it would be? Hartnell would seem to make the most sense.

So many loose ends right now. It’s difficult to make any kind of comment at the moment, as this was all set up with little in the way of payoff, so will have a better idea after next week.

It’s interesting I think that RTD has gone back to old Who so much in this recent run (although he’s left out the big hitter monsters), especially given this was meant to be a soft reboot in an attempt to gain a new generation of fans.

It’s the first time I’ve even been partially correct, so thanks to everyone for the kind words. And, yes, @blenkinsopthebrave, I am pretty puckered after mulling potential scenarios over. The bath joke started even further back I think, on the G’s website.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@ps1l0v3y0u

Also Ruth was shown post 13. And no 14 at all.

I’d not spotted that. Given @janetteb ‘s suggestion above, does that mean 14 could have bigened into RuthDoc (off screen) after he bigened with 15? Or is RuthDoc between Docs 2 and 3?

Interesting that you should mention Silence in the Library, I was getting more like Forest of The Dead vibes. And The Husband of River Song, both of which had an altered / created reality.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar

The issue with bigeneration is: who gets custody of the Tardis? For some reason I thought the box also split somehow. Which would seem to be wrong or at least there is no evidence but if, in Journey to the Centre of The Tardis, we learn the Tardis can make everything, why not another Tardis? That is it’s not just a space/time machine but a Von Neumann machine.

But Ruth’s Tardis is a police box decked out in 1960’s white formica. It wasn’t a Name of the Doctor death star elevator. And it wasn’t an American Diner. I have wondered about 2/3 and it looks very much like we MAY have some War Games retconning happening.

New bonkers theory… what if 3 just THOUGHT he had a functioning Tardis with a dematerialisation code problem? What if it was a mock up to keep him happy until Ruth handed the real one back? Or a duff SIDRAT someone had carelessly left knocking around?

Obviously Conrad may be ‘a’ Master… the Mind Robber type. The original churned out pot-boilers in the 1920’s…

Interesting to find out if anyone managed to isolate the ‘8’ frame… it was extraordinarily, suspiciously brief.

Need to think what to check out next… Paradise Towers, I think. Then ‘Silence’ and ‘Forest.’ The water in the forest is the river.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

At least one more viewing will be necessary before I can hope to sort out my thinking on this episode as a whole, but in the meantime, a few random observations.

Like @whohar my first thought, about ten minutes in, was of The Wedding of River Song (Husbands was the Christmas special) in that reality was being perverted.

In the introductory sequence the Rani, in her guise as the fairy tale Evil Witch, turned the man (woodcutter?) and his wife into an owl and flowers respectively, which recalls the story of Blodeuwedd in the Mabinogion,  central also to Alan Garner’s The Owl Service. Perhaps completely irrelevant, but given RTD’s nationality it might have been lurking at the back of his mind.

The kidnapped Baby, who is apparently key to Conrad’s ability to sustain his altered and to him more satisfying reality, is evidently channelling something very sinister. When we heard it chuckle it was the Giggle.

Poppy is real, grounded in reality and seemingly in opposition to the Baby. Her answer to everything is a cheerful ‘No’, causing repeated slips in the illusion, signified by the breakage of orange mugs.

The colour orange seems to be associated with the illusions of the Wish World, not only in the mugs which everyone seems to be using, but in the wheely bins labelled slips and used exclusively for the disposal of broken mugs. Why? People have noted in the past that the Doctor seems to wear a lot of orange coloured clothing. Is there any connection?

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@janetteb  @ps1l0v3y0u  @whohar

The problem with trying to fit Ruth Doc into the line of Doctors 1 to 13, at least for me, is that it means not only jettisoning the Timeless Child narrative – i.e. Awsok/Tecteun was lying through her teeth, but that the Division shenanigans were were contemporary with the lives of at least some of the incarnations of the known canon and completely unknown to them, which seems a bit of a stretch given how many other secrets of the Time Lords the Doctor has managed to ferret out.

[nerys @nerys]

I am cheerfully reading all the spoilers here, even though I must wait for my library to get Ncuti Gatwa’s first season. I feel optimistic that I’m of an age where, by the time the DVDs finally arrive, I will have forgotten most of what I have read. But this comment from @mudlark got me thinking:

The problem with trying to fit Ruth Doc into the line of Doctors 1 to 13, at least for me, is that it means not only jettisoning the Timeless Child narrative – i.e. Awsok/Tecteun was lying through her teeth, but that the Division shenanigans were were contemporary with the lives of at least some of the incarnations of the known canon and completely unknown to them, which seems a bit of a stretch given how many other secrets of the Time Lords the Doctor has managed to ferret out.

It’s been quite a while since I last watched Jodie Whittaker’s Doctor. But one of the things that stood out to me, and not in a good way, was that “The Timeless Children” saga was told to her by the Master. At the time, I was so annoyed by Chibnall’s complete disregard of the “show, don’t tell” principle of storytelling that I could barely watch.

But what if what the Master told the Doctor was all a lie? Wasn’t Ruth the one through line we got in all of that? As I recall, she worked for the Division, but did she confirm all of what the Master said? I really can’t remember. And, I don’t think that’s just a result of aging. The denouement was that unmemorable.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@nerys. I am doing the same, reading spoilers. I do love spoilers. I did not watch the final chibnell series. I gave up at the destruction of Gallifrey but I think there is every possibility the Master was lying. After all I wouldn’t trust anything that he/she says, ever. they are not know for their honesty. Jo Martin doc as a bi generation doctor would work and explains why she has a police box shaped Tardis, (kind of, with a bit of story jiggery pokery) whereas if she was a pre Hartnell Doctor it does not work as it was established, in the first episode and again in the Moffat years that the Tardis was fixed in that shape after Hartnell Doc stole it and landed it in London 1963.

cheers

Janette

 

 

[Pufferfish @pufferfish]

Hello all – have been lurking all along! I would highly recommend having a look at the series 2 preview trailer if you want to see glimpses of the final episode not present in the clips released online or at the end of Unleashed. I think one shot is definitely of Omega!

We’re in a mythical world and have been since 14 chucked salt; bi-generation is itself a Timelord myth. When the ‘normal’ world is restored, normal regeneration will start again, and 14 and Mrs Flood will fade – and I think Flood might sacrifice herself in some way to do this.

Unless he’s a potential host for Omega, Conrad isn’t anything other than a right wing nutjob who dislikes the Doctor enough to wish he was fake, he’s already exhausted from imagining 24/7, and remains a prisoner – be careful what you wish for, edgelord! All signals point to him cracking up one way or another (and unless a huge name is playing Omega, the actor might be famous enough to step up).

As with all other companions, Ruby retains memories of other timelines she has witnessed as a traveler so no wonder the Wish World doesn’t sit right. The people from UNIT are edging closer to each other, or at least were until the Underverse started showing up.

The Doctor says Poppy is real (I think she is because even in Wish World, she’s made of NO). He’s freaking out at the end because if something happens to her, everything that’s ever happened to him since he ran away with Susan could be changed enough to open some kind of rift or generally blow shit up. This is why Susan keeps appearing after all this time, the ultimate harbinger. Obviously the dumbass Rani has no idea she’s opened this can of worms because she’s told Belinda her daughter isn’t real. The Vindicator writ large, I guess?

As to the dumbass Rani(s), I love them. Even though they are not the main event, I don’t mind.

Bearing everything above in mind,  I wonder what (or who) this makes Belinda and/or how she got here? IIRC 15 hasn’t said what was in her DNA…

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@nerys

Yes, the story of the Doctor’s origins as the Timeless Child was first related to her by the Master, as was the first mention of the Division by name, and if that were all, it might be possible to dismiss the whole thing as a lie; an invention on his part to get back at her and justify his genocidal actions. The problem is that everything he said seems to be corroborated by later incidents in the Flux narrative and specifically by Awsok in Survivors of the Flux when she claims to be leader of the Division and when she says, ‘I’m the one who found you, brought you to Gallifrey and raised you. I’m Tecteun’. So could she also have been lying, and was it in collusion with the Master?  She said that the Flux was engineered by her and the Division to destroy a universe which had been too much affected by the Doctor’s meddling, so were the two of them, not content with the destruction of the Time Lords, both part of a grand scheme to erase all evidence of the Doctor’s legacy?  The whole Flux narrative is a tangled mess as it is 🙄

In Fugitive of the Judoon Ruth Doctor didn’t name the organisation for which she had worked and from which she was fleeing, but a series of clues from subsequent episodes seem to confirm that it was the Division, and in Once Upon a Time, when the 13th Doctor was apparently reliving a buried memory of leading a squad of Division operatives, there is an instant when she pauses in front of a reflection of herself, but the image she sees is Ruth Doctor. This seems to confirm the notion that Ruth Doctor was from an earlier, if forgotten period in her own direct line rather than from a branch line of bi-generated Doctors. As, for that matter, does an incident in The Story and the Engine.

[nerys @nerys]

@mudlark Oh, right, Tecteun actually did show up later on. Like I said, the Flux denouement was pretty underwhelming for me, so I have forgotten a lot. Thanks for the synopsis of how that “tangled mess” (aptly put) went down.

@janetteb I have paid attention to the observations about Ruth Doc’s Tardis and how, if she preceded Hartnell Doc, the appearance of her Tardis makes no sense. Her re-entry now is puzzling. But since bi-generation has become a thing, maybe that’s the explanation?

RTD seems committed to giving fans what they want. First we got Tennant Doc and Donna resolving Donna’s memory problem (which was always a sore spot with me). Many complained that we wanted to see more of Ruth Doc. Maybe her reappearance is another case of fan service. It will be interesting to see how this plays out, and if it resolves in a satisfying way.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@nerys

I think the appearance of the Tardis with the Jo Martin Doctor was simply an egregious mistake on the part of Chibbers. One of many.

Will hold off on a more detailed response, as the annual marathon in my town that starts and concludes about a block from where I live is coming to its conclusion, and the ones coming in last are the ones getting the loudest cheers and applause, which is as it should be.

 

[MissRori @missrori]

@pufferfish: The problem with getting rid of the Pantheon of Discord on the way to setting the universe to rights is that the Doctor is probably going to have to use Desiderium’s powers to save Earth, as there isn’t any obvious solution to the problem otherwise (and telling him the right story fits into the themes of storytelling and control this season). And to use the Pantheon’s powers means they have to stay in the universe.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

I suggest observations with regards to this quite all right ep, and the entertaining if slightly self-serving arc that encompasses it, remain to be expressed here… or on forums related to subsequent episodes.

For stuff that pertains specifically to Chib, his decisions, the reasons for those, and the reaction to his departure, perhaps we should retire to the dartboard of The Winchester, if not the Couch of Sigmund Freud.

If I’ve got thid wrong in the past fair enough. But it seems to be a continuing issue. People want to talk about the show…

[Mudlark @mudlark]

After a second viewing I think I may have a better overall grasp of where this is going.

Knowing that the Rani’s purpose is to resurrect Omega helps make sense of much of the episode. In The Three Doctors Omega was sustaining his existence by using the singularity at the heart of a black hole and the power of his own will to sustain an existence in which anything is possible, and to demonstrate this at one point he conjures a chair out of thin air. In the opening sequence with the woodcutter and his family the Rani is in similar fashion able, presumably by using the powers of the baby Desiderium (lit. That which is to be desired), to conjure people magically into flowers, and birds.

Conrad has been recruited precisely because he is dissatisfied with complex reality, so that he can use the same power of Desiderium to construct a world such as he wishes did exist, based apparently on a simplistic idea of the 1950s which some people seem to imagine was a golden age* and it reinforces my sense that Conrad is the result of a very unsatisfactory and thwarted childhood. The result of course, is very thin stuff and barely holding together, even with the ubiquitous posters exhorting people to avoid doubt and questioning, not to mention Conrad’s bland and insipidly soothing storytelling. His utopia has inevitably to be enforced with a Gestapo or Stasi-like system of informers and police enforcers.

The last words of the Doctor as he was falling were, ‘I have a daughter. Poppy is real. Don’t you know what that means?’, and I have a feeling that maybe the denouement will revolve around the two babies: Poppy who is grounded in reality, can say ‘no’ to Conrad’s world, and is/was the captain of a crew of babies operating a space station, and the infant god Desiderium, the source of wish fulfilment who is as yet too immature to express wishes of his own – or is he?.

How Poppy could appear to Belinda in the alley outside the Barber’s shop in Lagos remains to be explained, as do the gigantic dinosaur skeletons stalking over London.

*Spoiler: It wasn’t.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@mudlark

But ‘poppy’ is also echoed in the Hellions and their ruined planet. Poppy Honey.

Space Babies and Rogue are emerging from the murk.

Paradise Towers is worth a look… just started. Pity about Mel…

There’s something somewhere about a young actress who played a Red Kang and crops up later. Can’t remember…

I shall deploy the sonic trowel!!

[ScaryB @scaryb]

Welcome back @pufferfish I love your thinking!

@mudlark The whole point of the false world is that it can be destroyed by doubt… And the Doctor’s breakthrough doubt is powerful enough to break into the underverse where Omega is supposedly trapped.  So Conrad was employed as a flawed world maker. Set up to fail… poor Conrad!

Random thoughts – 24 May is the day Belinda was kidnapped by the robots (at the behest of another (flawed) world maker/incel). Before she was kidnapped it was supposedly another “normal” day. So what happened then to make it significant – the day that the Rani (presumably) chose to break reality? Was it just that this was the day the Doctor was trying to get back to, using the Vindicator which the Rani then subverted for her own plans? And how did she get her hands on the Vindicator?

Poppy – agree with you both that this goes back to the specials – when “mavity” was introduced and the salt was scattered, letting loose the pantheon of gods, fairytales and myths (including bigeneration (and we do still have a loose 14 running around somewhere)). IRL 15’s 2 seasons were written and filmed back to back, and RTD planned the broadcast dates over a year ago. There’s been remarkably little leaked about the season apart from #RIPDrWho and rumours of cancellation which fits in with the themes of this season.

Maybe I’m clutching at straws here 😛 .

OTOH I really liked this episode, including the yellow/turquoise theme of the fake world – a callback to Dot And Bubble? Coincidence?

One more random thought – at the end of last week – Interstellar Song Contest – the TARDIS doors explode – as far as I know the only other time this has happened was at the end of Ep1 of The Mind Robber (a story all about storytelling, and rewriting the narrative).  The next thing we know, the Doctor is in an alternative universe (We don’t know how old this is or how long the Doctor’s been trapped here – it may not be as long as it looks).

Bonkers theory – in order to escape the alternative reality the Doctor has to go back to employ the services of the Barber (whose stories were enough to sustain the existence of the gods) in order to create a new story which overwrites the Rani’s version!

Final (3 glasses of wine) thoughts – it’s 25th May and we’re all still here!!

PS How come the baby Desiderium (?) is still a baby at 160 years old?! Does that have implications about toddler Poppy’s real/presumed age?

🙂

[ScaryB @scaryb]

Dates are mentioned in Lucky Day – anyone note which ones? Do we know what date it is when Mrs F releases Conrad from prison?

[geoffers @geoffers]

@mudlark and @scaryb

i think the giant skellingtons stalking all around london are nothing more than an offshoot of the “bone palace,” the rani’s headquarters. purely aesthetic, and a nod to fairy tales, but perhaps also a built-in “test” of how well the wish world is holding together? if everyone is content to accept them as reality, then the baby’s power levels are holding?

i think the baby is still a baby simply because of time travel? (and possibly gods either age very slowly, or not at all?) my biggest question is where is the rani’s tardis? …and where is the doctor’s tardis? probably hidden in plain sight! i think the exploding doors from last week were the effects of the wish becoming real, and the doctor and belinda were whisked away, into the dream/nightmare scenario. the actual tardis is fine, and is probably being used to stabilise and/or to support the vindicator’s woven web… similarly to how it was used by the master to sustain the paradox of the toclafane takeover, way back in ‘the last of the time lords.’ edit to add: the rani probably got the vindicator at this moment, too, when the tardis was vulnerable?

one general comment i’d like to address, which i’ve seen here and on the who subreddit, is that some are lamenting that we didn’t get a whole lot of “doctor” in this episode (and, indeed, in both of these recent, truncated seasons). but i remember how little time the doctor was himself in ‘the family of blood’ two-parter, so it doesn’t really bother me. he will certainly be 100% doctor for part two, and so john smith will be forced back into his supporting role much more quickly than in that story! 🙂

[i hope everyone is well?! life has severely curtailed my participation in the online world, but i do still check in here and there, now and then, when i need some clarification over some minor wibble or wobble. and i have to say, it’s a great indicator of how excited and pleased i’ve been about this season that i’m motivated to drop in! russell is giving moffat a good run for the money!!]

cheers

[geoffers @geoffers]

@ps1l0v3y0u

the oddness of 8 is probably due to it being the version from 13’s “inner mind struggle” episode? russell is certainly picking and choosing from chibnall’s run, perhaps trying to squeeze/finesse some of the lesser liked aspects of his stories back into “proper” nuwho perspective? as one who doesn’t have as much of an ax to grind against him (i enjoyed most of his run, even though i believe he’s easily the lesser of the three showrunners, so far), i do think chibnall tried too hard to put a new spin on a working model… and the results didn’t catch fire like he would have liked?

or, it did, and nearly burned the fandom to the ground?! LOL

[geoffers @geoffers]

one more (off topic) general idea: i think the fugitive doctor’s tardis being in the guise of the police box has been overthought. and beyond. from the showmaking/storytelling angle, it was to confirm to the audience that, yes, this person is the same doctor as the main one. from the in-story angle, why would the tardis NOT appear in that shape, as a clue to 13 that another (even if previous to hartnell) incarnation is in play? the tardis has a mind of its own, in essence, and does everything she can to help the doctor, so it didn’t bother me one bit that she took on that most familiar of shapes, in that moment. but in the context of the doctor having hidden herself from the division, it also makes sense that the tardis would “cover” for her/him. perhaps if some other timelord (or a division operative) had dug her up, she would have appeared as… a generic, crashed ufo of some kind? (only) who knows! but with every incarnation of the doctor roaming the earth, and england specifically, at all times, it’s just shorthand from the tardis to the doctor(s)… “here i am, thief! just where (one of) you left me!!”

the navigation is knackered, and the chameleon circuit is stuck… or, she does whatever she wants!

your mileage may vary!

[BobbyFatv2 @bobbyfatv2]

So much to say, so hard to find time to say it.

I think @whohar not only predicted the episode but caused it to be – by virtue of the wish into reality power of the child in the ultimate meta fiction.

So many links and questions

The cloaked rani with baby call back to ruby and mum

why was the opening on the horse so familiar

what was magic baby’s original name? Anyone catch that?

is there significance that the rani reveal last week was mid credits, as was the fan revival, so we we are in a meta fan world with Susan, rani, omega .. all to be dissolved by some kind of at of thinking or memory or love

flood – rain – rani – rain -river – pond

 

 

[BobbyFatv2 @bobbyfatv2]

I’ve always loved an alternative reality episode, lots of antecedents in Who of course, but also the Prisoner, the Truman show, original Star Trek tv series.

I have had a growing feeling thoughout this series that RTD2 is channeling the last twin peaks series. Lots of glitchy moments and odd turns. Central to that was agent cooper being trapped in an alternative reality of domestic and work bliss until he finally ‘wakes up’. If this holds for the final, expect moebius strip contortions and an ambiguous ending that leaves you wondering is this the real life, or is this just fantasy. Cut to credits.

[Whisht @whisht]

Well – that was a lot.

I liked the WandaVision aspect (but WV does cast a shadow).
Some of the ‘deaths’ in this series (especially Violet) seem to be there just to show ‘things are dangerous’/ this will look good.
They don’t (for me) carry much moral weight.
Oh well.

The baby that can cast wishes being described as “terrifying” by both Rani and a scared Conrad gave me Ray Bradbury short-story vibes. And that’s no bad thing.

The rest you’ve all covered and spotted far better than I (I didn’t even hear ‘the giggle’!).

In terms of call-backs to previous seasons (even ancient ones) I think its easy enough to enjoy the show as a newbie, but have a ‘huh who’s that?’ for those interested enough to go seeking all that yummy content in Beeb’s archive ($$).

Bonkers theory?

I don’t really have any. I have a nagging wonder about “Poppy”.
Its a flower that induces sleep, and visions.
So I looked for poetry that mentioned poppies (yeah, spare time).

I know nothing about poetry (not really my thing) but in Oscar Wilde’s poem ‘Panthea’ there are many mentions of Gods (and how they view us), universes, Nature (incl violets), and poppies.
Ok, it’s probably just a love poem (or even slightly more earthy) saying how even when we die we pass into the universe, but then, isn’t that what happened with a star..?

So, will Poppy say “No!” to Omega?
Will Poppy wake everyone from this dreamlike sleep?
Who nose?

Meanwhile I have a few songs that have popped up when I looked for music to connect to this ep…

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

A few thoughts on Poppy. The Doctor shouts out to the Rani “Poppy is real! Don’t you know what that means!?” Well, I have been trying to make sense of that. Not sure I have cracked it, and apologies if I am repeating what has already been said, but:

Did the Doctor and Belinda actually have a child? If so, is Poppy a Timelord? If so, could Poppy travel in space and time in some timey-wimey sort of way to be in “Space Babies” where she declares that she is the Captain of the ship, and also be in Lagos to direct Belinda to the barber shop?

Time for a calming cup of tea…

 

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@scaryb

The whole point of the false world is that it can be destroyed by doubt… And the Doctor’s breakthrough doubt is powerful enough to break into the underverse where Omega is supposedly trapped.

Yes, the Rani made that very clear in her exposition to the Doctor. The reasoning seems straightforward enough: the universe is too robust and stable to allow the kind of breakthrough required to release Omega, but if you could replace just one very small part of it, e.g. the Earth, with a fragile and unstable construct which could be destroyed by doubt, then a breakthrough would be possible.

I confess that I have a slight problem with that. The kind of replacement of a pocket of reality envisaged in this plan appears to entail it’s destruction, but if such destruction is possible simply through the power of Desiderium, boosted by the power network woven by the Vindicator, why the need for even a temporary replacement at all? Just destroying reality on one insignificant planet would surely be enough in itself. Unless, of course, the intention was also to trap and destroy the Doctor. It seems to me rather more likely that the underlying reality is essentially indestructible by even the most powerful wish fulfilment, and all that could be achieved is an ephemeral overlay. On the other hand, of course, the underlying reality we are dealing with here is probably the alternate universe of mavity etc. so who knows?

Maybe this is a how the fate of the earth will be determined and the Rani and Omega foiled; by the persistence of an underlying reality, reinforced by Poppy and the army of the disabled and homeless who had no part in Conrad’s feeble Utopia and could therefore see through the illusion.

@bobbyfatv2

what was magic baby’s original name? Anyone catch that?

I think the mother said they wanted to call him Jonas, but the Rani said a more appropriate name would be Sturm und Drang (storm/attack and violence). Later, when he was installed in the bone palace, she said his name was Desiderium (Latin: that which is to be desired/wished) God of wishes, so a new born member of the Pantheon

[MissRori @missrori]

@mudlark:

Maybe this is a how the fate of the earth will be determined and the Rani and Omega foiled; by the persistence of an underlying reality, reinforced by Poppy and the army of the disabled and homeless who had no part in Conrad’s feeble Utopia and could therefore see through the illusion.

Except Poppy and the army can’t do anything if they’re dead, and they all just fell into giant purple portals with buildings collapsing onto them to boot. The whole Earth’s gone to dust, and they’re not going to have a TARDIS swooping in to scoop them up. We already know from previous episodes that Earth is dead-dead-dead post May 24 2025, and the universe’s reality has already adjusted to that going by “The Well” and “The Intergalactic Song Contest”. The Web of Time hasn’t collapsed, even though logically it should with all those fixed moments in time that won’t happen.

Of course, what’s going to happen is that somehow the Doctor will be rescued (perhaps by his TARDIS, perhaps piloted by Susan?) and he’s ultimately going to tell Desiderium a story to fix everything, fitting into this season’s themes of the power of stories.

Anybody have any idea why the Doctor’s ranting about a daughter while he’s falling to his death? Shouldn’t he be summoning his TARDIS and not dying first? Or maybe Poppy’s piloting it to him and thus isn’t dead? 😀

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

Wow, I’m very late to the party and have clearly missed some excellent bonkerising!

@mudlark I love the catch about the Rani turning the 7th son of a 7th son of a 7th son’s Mum into flowers and his Dad into an owl, a la Blodeuwedd. That’s another duality (like the bigeneration) as Blodeuwedd has the dual form of owls/ flowers. Hers is also a very powerful story (if we read it that way) about being trapped in a social system (patriarchy) as she was; a woman created by male magicians to be a bride for a King she didn’t love, and all she wanted was to be free to love someone of her own choice. yet she was punished for it.

Conrad’s world is not just Stepford Wives World, keeping women trapped in domestic chains (like Blodeuwedd), but it’s also Compulsory Heterosexuality World, keeping Gatwa-Doc’s very gay self in illusiory Straightsville. But his gayness is one of his doorways to doubt, and it keeps breaking through, so much so that we see the lovely Rogue again (albeit in a Hell dimension).

The Rani’s bone-house is no doubt a reference to another fairy tale – she is Baba Yaga as well as the Wicked Witch of the West. The bone-house also resembled the Racnoss space-ship from Tenant-Doc’s The Runaway Bride. It’s yet another instance of recycled elements from the Doctor’s past in the mavity world. Last week’s Delta Wave recalled Ecclestone Doctor’s episode The Parting of the Ways. It’s as though the Doctor is trapped in a through-the-looking glass Time Lord Matrix.

I really loved this episode, as it was quite bonkers itself – a bigenerated Rani (love them both) in search of…. Omega!

Poppy is a very adorable, and yes, as you say @whisht ,  her name, particularly in conjunction with last week’s substance “poppy honey”,  which The Corporation genocided the Hellions for, must be significant. She seems to be a sort of reverse-opium in this case, a child who sees through illusion. All of which, reminded me of the Lotus-eaters in the Odyssey, sunk in drugged illusory torpor, and Tennyson’s poem about the same:

“Let us swear an oath, and keep it with an equal mind,
In the hollow Lotos-land to live and lie reclined
On the hills like Gods together, careless of mankind.
For they lie beside their nectar, and the bolts are hurl’d
Far below them in the valleys, and the clouds are lightly curl’d
Round their golden houses, girdled with the gleaming world:
Where they smile in secret, looking over wasted lands.”

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/45364/the-lotos-eaters

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

Hi all yes I’m late to the party so to speak, have managed 2 run throughs tho. One of the things I imeadiately thought when I saw it was oh god not another villain with a disco ball don’t know why. But on to other points and not necessarily in chronological order.

Has anyone thought where’s the Rani’s Tardis and then I  thought when the Doctor and Belinda were told to step over the threshold in the bone palace is this really a modified Tardis like Clara’s Diner Tardis with external rooms. This would explain why things inside the Bone palace have ‘more’ reality and the outside is the ‘Conradverse’ as Tardis’ are essentially a pocket dimension in time and space so would not  necessarily be subject to Conrad’s reality.

As to why would the Rani be searching for Omega, the only reason I could see given some of the comments she made in her monologue is she’s try ing to create a new Gallifrey with Omega being the first Proto-Timelord so to speak. In the original 3 Doctors story Omega was as memory serves a Stellar Technician who’s work gave the Timelords the ability to time travel whilst ending up  being trapped in the heart of a black hole in a negative universe. As has been said by others he survived by gaining the ability to alter his reality in the negative universe.

Another thing that occurred to me is the Rani really Tectun as recreation of the universe was the whole premise of  The flux and the purpose behind the Division. It would also explain the similarities between Tectun and the Rani and how she seems to think she and the doctor have more of a history than tv cannon actually gives them,( there were only 2 stories with 6 and 7 from the PreGap era I’m not including other sources as I’m not overly familiar with them.)

As to Poppy’s relevance could she be regenerated or Bigenerated Susan. It could be that the Doctor has suddenly realised who she is and this is why he says she’s important. Of course she could be a regenerated Jenny (the Doctors Clone Daughter)

Oh hell I think I’m a bit sleep deprived and need to  think where I’m going, that and see where the finale actually goes.

 

[syzygy @thane16]

Hallooo everyone. An exciting but short series!
Love the theories and the characters within the  the rich Blodeuwedd tale. @whisht A shout out to a QLD minimalist composer, Peter Gundry and his Blodeuwedd fantasy composition (available on YouTube).
@whohar you’re definitely one of the gods of prophecy (aren’t they all?)! Perhaps Apollo?

@geoffers oh yes! (Said in the Tennant Doc voice). I loved the Family of Blood 2 parter. Thank you for explaining the skeletons. I absolutely couldn’t understand their significance….
@pufferfish “bi-generation is itself a time lord myth.” Oh that’s wonderful. Essentially, all should be restored but I’m not sure if RTD will want that?

yes, I agree, the Who world since Mavity and salt, is one of stories and also fables.

Perhaps tales of what will happen should we ignore the consequences of the double-think of neo-conservatives, and fail to recognise honest doubt…. When you run out questions, you don’t just run out of answers, but also hope. And the Doctor loves hope. He also loves a name -so I’m no fan of “babes.” 🙂

Without choice we become objects of circumstance: choice being the very definition of humanity. Hatred and desperation quickly become something of a vacuum, they don’t exist with other emotions so we find it hard to feel anything else. This is Conrad’s world.  He reverses reality, making it a catalyst for the distortion of it.

@devilishrobby yes, I wondered about the “stepping over the threshold” too. It reminded me of a husband carrying wife (over the threshold) as well as a door to a “Tardis.”

@scaryb @juniperfish it’s interesting how many episodes are reminiscent of previous Who/RTD series or stories -as you say the Racnoss was similar to the Bone palace and this episode a reminder of Dot and Bubble -indeed the theme is ignorant racism all over again with Conrad fitting in well to that society.

cheers! Puro.

[syzygy @thane16]

@missrori I think anyone falling to their death thinks of their offspring first. It demonstrates how human the Doctor has become. As it shows the very best of us.

[syzygy @thane16]

@pufferfish I think the Rani should be called dumbass forever onwards. And Conrad.
Also, why does Ruby feel the need to see Conrad face to face? She isn’t hoping to “reform him” Is she?  (Echoes of The West Wing there and Sam….).

Puro.

[Whisht @whisht]

Hey @juniperfish – [waves] great spot on the Baba Yaga reference for the bone house/palace.
And her flying was very Wicked Witch (or Green Goblin!).
Maybe Poppy will ease the pain of hurt people, who hurt people?

;¬)

@thane16 – hellooo!
Thanks for the Gundry – he and that song is new to me!
Lovely thoughts on ‘choice’ and Conrad’s world.
As you say, his world doesn’t change. It’s static. There are no choices there.
He has god-like chosen already (which could lead me to pondering Free Will but I haven’t had even a glass of wine!)
(yet).

and thanks @scaryb @juniperfish and everyone else who are helping me see the reflections and echoes this series has thrown up.

“Poppy is real” – does this suggest the other people in this world aren’t real?
They have memories before the unreality of Conrad’s WishWorld.

My head aches and that’s before any wine… ;¬)

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@whisht

“Poppy is real”

I still have this lingering feeling that Poppy might be a Timelord, crazy as that sounds. How else to explain her appearance in “Space Babies” and, briefly, in Lagos?

[BobbyFatv2 @bobbyfatv2]

Thanks @mudlark

two thoughts on baby jonas – quick google suggests derived from Jonah and meaning dove, so lots to ponder there.

but also jonas as a variant of John … Smith, the kidnap of the baby by the rani calling back to the TC story? Is the baby in fact the Dr?

[Whisht @whisht]

@blenkinsopthebrave
I think we agree that unlike Belinda, Poppy is ‘special’!

And being a Time Lady is definitely ‘special’!

;¬)

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@missrori

Poppy and the army can’t do anything if they’re dead, and they all just fell into giant purple portals with buildings collapsing onto them to boot. The whole Earth’s gone to dust, and they’re not going to have a TARDIS swooping in to scoop them up. We already know from previous episodes that Earth is dead-dead-dead post May 24 2025, and the universe’s reality has already adjusted to that going by “The Well” and “The Intergalactic Song Contest”.

True if we take what we have seen at face value, although the deaths of Poppy, Ruby and her companions was only implied. However, throughout this season and the last there have been repeated hints and clues that we have been dealing with alternative realities and alternative time lines, not to mention stories and the telling of stories which have been strong themes running through this seasons episodes in particular;  stories which have the power to conjure worlds which never were and could never be, including the Grimm’s fairy tale opening sequence of this episode.

What I was suggesting – which may of course be completely wrong – was that even the power of the Vindicator web, which the Rani said was equivalent to the power of a billion supernovae, would not be enough to destroy an underlying fundamental reality of the universe,* and that those who could see even partially through the illusion of Conrad’s wish world might be able to anchor us to that fundamental reality. The Doctor’s words as he was falling, ‘Poppy is real’, were certainly meant to carry significance and weight.

* Of course even one supernova could destroy the Earth, or at least life on Earth if it were near enough, but could even a billion supernovae alter reality, other than in the sense that in the singularities at the heart of the resulting black holes the known laws of physics wouldn’t necessarily apply?

 

 

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@bobbyfatv2

On the subject of names, The Rani addressed the baby’s father as Herr Zufall which is certainly significant, since Zufall means chance/happenstance – entirely appropriate for the seventh son of a seventh son in a Black Forest fairy tale.

@thane16

Greetings Puro.

why does Ruby feel the need to see Conrad face to face? She isn’t hoping to “reform him” Is she?

If she’s half the women I think she is it is probably to tell him what she *really* thinks of him 😡   One could almost feel sorry for the poor lad, damaged as he is and with all his insecurities.

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

Oh I’ve just had a really really evil thought about baby Poppy could the Doctor be warning the Rani she was about to do something really stupid if Poppy is real, could Poppy really be an incarnation of the “RANI” and she’s about to cause a Paradox. Ouch now that thought makes my head hurt. I would much prefer to find out Poppy is actually a regenerated Susan but I can’t see how that would save reality. If Poppy is the Rani and by destroying the reality she is infact setting up a Paradox in some way that will negate all that the Rani is trying to do.

[winston @winston]

My Grandfather was the seventh son. He was also born on Valentines Day so he was given the spectacular name of Septimus Valentine. For some reason lost to the past, he went by the name Sid. Unfortunately, or not, nobody has been named for him. Anyway, I don’t think he was particularly lucky or unlucky.

To me the poppy always means remembrance but I don’t know what that could mean except the Doctor did remember her as he was falling.

stay safe

[WhoHar @whohar]

@winston

My Grandfather was the seventh son. He was also born on Valentines Day so he was given the spectacular name of Septimus Valentine.

That’s magnificent.

Funnily enough my Aunt was the 7th child of a 7th child (my grandmother), so down the female line. Apparently the two of them had telepathic abilities but only between the two of them.

[Author]

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