Wish World

[WhoHar @whohar]

If, as the Doctor claims, that Poppy is his daughter, then why did he not recognise her in Space Babies?

It seems to me that he should have recognised her then, and not recognised her now but it appears to be the other way round.

Either he’s mistaken (unlikely), lying (but why, and to whom – no one is listening to him as he plummets to the ground*), or he’s right (but see above)

This is another plot thread that will have to be tied up in the final episode. There are many. Hopefully RTD can pull it off, and the final ep is 1 hour and 6 mins of runtime, so he might have a chance.

* a ground that is rapidly disappearing, so what is he going to hit? The Underverse seems the best bet at this point.

[WhoHar @whohar]

I’ve just looked at this again.

“I’ve have a daughter. Poppy is real. Don’t you know what that means?”

We’ve been (logically) assuming that the Doctor is talking about one person i.e. that Poppy is his daughter. But what if she’s not? What if the Doctor is making two unrelated statements?

I have a daughter.

And

Poppy is real.

If so, then we have another mystery – who is the Doctor talking about? Surely, RTD isn’t going to throw Jenny into the mix?

[ScaryB @scaryb]

Thanks to @mudlark and @juniperfish for spots and explanations about Blodeuwedd. Which fits with this season’s theme of myths, fairy tales, and the power of stories. In fact all of Ncuti’s/RTD2’s run.

And to @geoffers for clarifying my muddled thinking. Of course the Rani timetravelled from 1865 to 2025. Similarly, we (and the world’s inhabitants) only THINK this world has been in existence for ages. Presumably it was created not long after Mrs F released Conrad, and just as/after the TARDIS doors blew open at the end of last episode. And also presumably since Belinda was kidnapped by the robots as (apart from being kidnapped by alien robots!) the earth was fine when she left it. Maybe @whohar‘s “schwup” is the key.

“Poppy is real” – in what way is she real, in ways that other characters here aren’t? (Not counting Susan and Rogue who could presumably be figments of the Doctor’s subconscious).

There have been lots of kidnappings throughout Gatwa Doc’s tenure, especially babies – the goblins in Ruby’s first episode, the space babies (abandoned), Ruby herself (abandoned), Belinda (not a baby, but kidnapped), The Story And The Engine (multiple kidnappings AND Poppy’s out of time appearance).  And now the Wish Baby.

Final thought – Ruby remembers living through 2025 before (73 Yards). I had started formulating a theory around colour coding, specifically turquoise and yellow, but there’s a lot of yellow throughout these 2 seasons, so maybe not significant.

PS @whisht – haha, I got distinct Green Goblin vibes from The Rani’s flying scooter too 🙂

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@whohar

We’ve been (logically) assuming that the Doctor is talking about one person i.e. that Poppy is his daughter. But what if she’s not? What if the Doctor is making two unrelated statements?

Interesting. I like it!

It’s been an interesting mix with RTD2 – on the one hand creating a whole pantheon of superpowered mythical creatures and on the other foregrounding about how interesting “ordinary” people are.

And is Omega the Meep’s boss?!

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@winston @whohar

Septimus Valentine – that is indeed magnificent.

In fairy tales it was always the 7th son of the 7th son who was important, daughters didn’t seem to count 😉 . Glad your relatives disrupt the myth 😀

And poppies – remembrance (as well as forgetting/dreaming) – good shout.

WhoHar – throwing Jenny into the mix – he’s brought back just about everyone else, LOL (between him and Chibs anyway).

[ScaryB @scaryb]

Waves @thane16 – good to see you back, and some good points

[Pufferfish @pufferfish]

I love to note how much Conrad resembles Wes Streeting.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

While we may wince at the thought of a Russ ‘kitchen sink’ season end, if it proved to be just an annihilated Omega bootstrapping himself through force of will, I may be slightly disappointed.

I think its all a VR including the Rani VR, in which The Doctor is forced to confront his past and maybe his future. I know the Cyberium might be interested in ‘excellent’ VR if they wanted to avoid being Androids as the Master pointed out to them.

Could be a valid point to make about AI

Also… Conrad. Toxic masculinity. Tends to crowd out everything else. Sound observation. Paradise Towers has ‘Pex’… who didn’t go to war with everyone else (war games – looking at you). Pex redeems himself by blowing himself and The Great Architect up. Perhaps Ruby CAN Conrad?

Poppy? Dunno. I don’t think Space Babies was real either. The Doctor may think because she says ‘no’ to Rani’s VR, she must be real.

[MissRori @missrori]

I get the idea that the whole previous episode, if not season, was taking place in a giant VR simulation – maybe the reason the TARDIS isn’t around is because it’s all inside the TARDIS?  Or is it all real but the Ranis simply materialized the Doctor’s TARDIS around Earth? But either theory would just leave more exposition for the next episode to slog through when there’s already too many unanswered questions that have to be wrapped up, especially if this turns out to be a surprise Grand Finale for 15.

I don’t think Susan and Rogue are figments of the Doctor’s subconscious because why would you take the trouble to actually bring back the performers, instead of just reediting some stock footage, if you weren’t going to actually use them in a meaningful way in the finale? Especially as, as Darren Mooney pointed out, this is probably the last chance they have to resolve the Question of Susan without recasting.

I thought about the possibility that the Doctor was talking about Jenny as his daughter too, but again, that’s too much to add to this pileup of characters this late in the game, and it doesn’t make sense that as he falls to presumably his death he’s screaming about two completely unrelated issues. Again, shouldn’t he be working on saving himself?

Actually I think the resolution of this cliffhanger is that the Doctor and all the other six billion people on Earth are presumably wishing, at this moment, not to die and Desiderium is going to hear all those cries and grant their wishes, causing a challenge for the Ranis, Conrad, and Omega.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@missrori

no Susan and Rogue are definitely NOT illusory. Nor is Roger ap Gwillem, Stukey Bill, or the Space Babies. However, everyone apart from Susan, but perhaps her too, are disguised. If anything, they are all rooted in The Doctor’s REAL consciousness.

We know now the exterior of The Bone Palace is unreal. But is the interior? Mavity precedes The V’indicator. So, where is the V’linx? Why is The Doctor still encountering Villengard? Could Rusty (the Dalek) really not bring them down?

Perhaps what is waiting outside is not Omega but banging video game. But who is holding the xbox?

Or I’m wrong. Omega chews the scenery into submission, and mavity goes with Antimatter like fishfingers and custard.

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

Right hers a couple of guesses of events that are possibly going to happen in the next part Reality war

1. The Doctor manages to kill Omega yet again (the third time in tv cannon not sure in how may times it’s been with non tv sources)

2. Given the rumours and leaks about a regeneration of Ncuti a regeneration happens but it’s Susan  into baby Poppy as others have  mentioned this is probably going to be the last opportunity for CAF to be able to film given her age and it allows for Susan to continue on in the Whoniverse though Poppy could be a ‘watcher” style forerunner of Susan’s regeneration but that is only a guess. I’ve always wondered why timelords don’t appeared to regenerate into children apart from River though that may have been her original incarnation.

5. The Doctor rescues Rouge and he becomes a full-time companion

3. The Rani’s end up imprissioned in the underverse with the Pantheon and Omega if he’s not killed/destroyed.

4. Omega will be played by Peter Davidson – in the AoI Omega tried hijacking Davidsondoc’s genetic code from the  Matrix.

I’d say 1 is an almost certainty obviously , I think 2 is a fan wish and given what RTD has recently said about giving the fans what they want in interviews I would say it would fit perfectly who other than the Rani has been a constant fan call back…… Susan.

Oh I think my brain is going to explode bonkerising

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

As we approach the final episode, I have only one wish:

That Conrad is not redeemed.

 

[WhoHar @whohar]

@blenkinsopthebrave

Conrad is not redeemed

Fifty-fifty in my opinion but I think, given RTDs very clear theme on the subject, it’s probably even less likely, so maybe 40-60. UNLESS he somehow feels something for Ruby and tries to make it up with her, sacrificing himself in the process, so maybe 60-40. Ah, hell, I don’t know.

Similarly, I wonder if Mrs. Flood will turn on the Rani.

My one wish: That they don’t do a similar CGI-generated monstrosity, like they did with Sutekh. An actor, in a big gold mask works perfectly well. And I hope that Omega escapes into our world somehow. And that RTD sticks the finale. OK, so that’s three wishes, but they owe us after last season’s debacle.

I am also getting End of Time vibes: Bringing back Gallifrey, Omega / Rassilon, The Rani / The Master. As noted before, RTD is pulling lots of ideas from his first run into this and repackaging them into new stories.

[MissRori @missrori]

I gotta say that while I like the chemistry they have together, the Doctor-Belinda pairing…never really went anywhere, did it? We barely learned anything about her actual life, she rarely had a big impact on any given adventure. And now the season finale has her trying to save “my daughter”…whom we already know isn’t actually hers. Either she’s somehow still under the Wish World delusion (though it appears no one else is from the Next Time trailer) or we’re going to get yet another giant exposition dump revealing she is a completely different character than the one we’d been following (by way of explaining how she’s the mother of the Doctor’s child), in an episode that’s already doomed to be overstuffed.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Perhaps the Space Babies are VR Time Lords.

Eric was The Doctor??

[syzygy @thane16]

@blenkinsopthebrave

I too wonder if Poppy’s a TL. Having needed a poppy of my own, I also wondered if she is the Doctor -I’m thinking of how stories containing several doctors have existed within a larger story or a main episode…. Such as the 2013  anniversary….And Space Babbies being the first of the main season after the Christmas special/s. 🧐

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

T-45 mins to Doctor Who finale

 

[janetteB @janetteb]

Continuing to be in ‘catch up” mode we watched this episode last night and as with so many episodes this series, it was better than expected.We were catapulted from a kind of Pratchett world into a version of The Handmaid’s Tale. Only RTD could pull that off.

I liked the use of colour and the depiction of the right wing, idealisation of the 1950s,. It was a kind of conservative fantasy world. Loved the Doctor’s extreme smile. Gatwi was perfect in this episode. (Going to miss him)

It was a good story and tense too and for me at least left only one question. WHY. I mean, lovely concept, very well executed by why? I had the feel at the end that the entire episode was “rule of cool”, it looks good, sounds good so lets do it.

Well at least I will enjoy watching it again to see if I can find answers, anything I might have missed with my sleep deprived befuddled brain. and it It still doesn’t fully make sense I will watch again, and again. Most of this series has been high on the re watchability stakes at least.

cheers

Janette

[syzygy @thane16]

@janetteb “why?”

that’s a great question & an interesting set of ideas, Janette.  I felt the same.

For me, the brilliant colourising of the set & cinematography didn’t leave me with a feeling of disquiet?  Had this world of doubt, created by Conrad’s Wish, used a different tone where everything was still 2025 but without the ‘50s particular colour & mood as pictured here, I might’ve felt differently?

I’d have preferred a darker palette mixed with a mysterious score -less vibrant with a leitmotif generating alarm & dread – with several slightly “off” scenes & consequences related to the ‘slip?’

I also disliked the quips- which is all the dialogue of the last 2 seasons. Nothing has time to breathe, to investigate & probe? I think @whohar and @ps1I0v3y0u mentioned this too?

I recall Tennant’s Gridlock. Martha makes him sit & he paints a picture, whilst surrounded by the gloom of New Earth. He speaks of the beautiful Gallifrey,  with red skies & rolling hills. As the hymn starts, there’s a pause of nearly 20 seconds before the Doctor admits he lied “because I liked it. I could pretend they were still alive. Underneath the burnt orange sky. I’m not just a TL. I’m the last.”

After Martha asks another question, the Doctor pauses again: “The second sun would rise in the south & the mountains would shine. The leaves on the trees were silver, & when they caught the light every morning, they looked like a forest on fire.”

We don’t get that breath & time anymore.
And with 8 episodes, not 14; with 44 mins & not Moffat’s 52, we’ve no choice but to move on & also have an overly bright, optimistic Doctor.

As @jimthefish said, the ambiguous & emotional doctors of the early 2000s & 2010s needed to evolve, but I profess that it’s difficult for me!

Also they didn’t address how the Doctor tortured Kid in the Interstellar Song Contest, breaking away from his promise, “never be cruel; never be cowardly. Remember, hate is always foolish. Love is always wise.” Not to mention this Doctor’s weeping. Russ said he didn’t ask Gatwa to do this: “I’d never tell an actor as fine as this not to cry!” But I would’ve liked more resolution.

Puro.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@janetteb

and it It still doesn’t fully make sense I will watch again, and again

I’d recommend watching The Reality War, as they are basically one story split over two parts; it might provide context (or it might leave you more confused).

@thane16

they didn’t address how the Doctor tortured Kid

I think this was a massive mis-step tbh. I found it very jarring to watch.

[TranslatorCircuit @translatorcircuit]

At first, I wondered what was going on here, but it soon became obvious that everyone was brainwashed and living in a fantasy world after The Rani had kidnapped ababy who was the seventh son of a seventh son of aseventh son from 19th Century Bavaria. The Baby had magical powers.

Conrad the podcaster from “Lucky Day” kept appearing on TV telling a fairy story about “Doctor Who” and The Rani.

The Doctor and Belinda were married and had a daughter called Poppy who was actually one of The Space Babies from last year’s series. No one in the fantasy seemed to remember their true identities at first, but doubts soon started to appear, helped by Ruby who somehow remembered what no one else seemed to.

Overall a big improvement compared with the early episodes in this series. The story is very involved and made me wonder exactly what was going on.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

These are my reactions bit by bit on first watching. Well, I can see where the Disney $$ went, and this ep looks great.

The Rani – obviously there’s a lot of background that I could know, but whether the lack of it is a major impediment depends on how RTD? wrote the episode.

Seventh son of a seventh son of a seventh son – that multiplies to 343. Can’t think of any significance in that (but my brain won’t stop doing that sort of stuff 🙂

Um, Belinda and the Doctor – in bed together and apparently a steady couple. Well this is new. Also unexpected, there wasn’t much hint of romance before. Took Rose and Ten two full seasons. What goes on? Oh, and they’ve got a daughter? That was quick! And the TV forecaster promises fine weather all over Great Britain (which is pushing credibility a bit) and New Zealand (now I know this is some alternate reality!)

And the announcer is reading Doctor Who. This is meta turned up to eleven.

What’s with the whole cupboard full of yellow mugs. And – Ruby?? What the ???

“I have someone expressing doubt”. This is going all Truman Show, except I suspect the ‘producers’ will be a lot more ruthless than Truman’s were.

Mel has a bin full of broken yellow mugs. This is getting surreal. I kinda like it. And immediately we have gigantic dinosaur skeletons walking around. OK, RTD isn’t going to build up the suspicions slowly, is he?

Doctor Who’s workplace instantly reminds me of the Ministry of Information in ‘Brazil’, Terry Gilliam’s black comedy, though Who’s ‘world’ is a lot less run-down and gloomy than Gilliam’s. That in turn had elements of ‘1984’. I’ve just realised – ‘Mr Smith’? Winston Smith! And Conrad posters with Big Brother-ish slogans on the walls. RTD acknowledging his inspiration, I think.

Back to Belinda and family, and we’re right back in Truman Show territory. She can’t remember the birth of her daughter. And another yellow coffee mug smashes. “That was quite a slip”. Probably why the rubbish bins have ‘Slip’ written on them.

I’m liking this.

I’ll make a prediction now (before I watch any further) – Belinda and the Doctor are in some kind of illusion ‘world’. The other characters aren’t real.

And now, the Rani. Her, um, bone palace is off the clock. Wall to wall insanity and Disney $$. A vague resemblance to a James Bond villain’s control room. The sensordroids (I call them that) are sensing very strong doubts, which pleases the Rani, I would have thought it should do the opposite.

And this is where it gets positively surreal. Conrad (the rat from three episodes back) is apparently running the Earth for the Rani (or something like that). And the Rani is relying on the Doctor’s doubts reaching some critical figure.

I like the way the test for doubts (I suppose) is coffee mugs smashing. Oh, it’s things falling through tables.

And then Doctor Smith and Belinda are arrested by the Thought Police, all very 1984. Notice that the crown on the door of the police car is a totalitarian-looking design – nice touch, that. The Monks in The Lie of the Land had a very similarly angular symbol.

Umm, then it gets even more surreal. So far as I can understand it – the entire ‘world’ has been generated by Conrad in order to trick the Doctor. So now the Rani is using the Doctor’s doubts in order to break reality so she can somehow find Omega. And she’s dispensing with the world as no longer needed. (Which means the entire population was fictitious, so that takes away the impact it would otherwise have had.) Still, all this is getting a bit too Chibs-like and Flux-like for my liking.

Umm. Well, it started off really promisingly. Then the last third, I think it jumped the shark. Or maybe I’m just not fond of universe-shaking epics.

Just have to see what the next episode brings.

[Author]

Posts