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@ardaraith – I promise you that a) I’m nowhere near Cork and b) I’m eating the bloomin’ things myself.

If we see 10.5 in the 50th, we may find out. There’s nothing to stop Moffat ‘explaining’ that Ten secretly hid the coral in 10.5’s pocket or something. 🙂

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@whisht – of course. He’s a jammy dodger! 😉

NINJA’D!

(Or on this site, should that be GANGERED! ?)

 

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@juniperfish – well, if the surprise is that Coleman is Twelve, I wouldn’t be astonished if they kept the reborn Doctor as genuinely young again. Smithy’s ‘ancient man in young body’ will be very hard to follow. I remain astonished at his ability – when in his twenties – to convincingly play very old and very tired.

Or, all these flying rumours have been put about for disinformation and the ambition of his life is to beat Tom Baker’s stint. 🙂

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How are new TARDIS born? TARDIS coral?

@ardaraith -There was a sadly deleted scene in which 10.5 and Rose were given a piece of TARDIS coral by Ten – so they could grow their own TARDIS. Russell T Davies says he still considers that canon.

Must be something in the air about awful Mexican food – I’ve just made a batch of tortillas that turned out a total failure. I ended up baking the wretched things into tortilla chips, or rather, corn biscuits. Rock hard corn biscuits…

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The cover will delight those who anticipate a surprise regeneration

Who, me? 😀

Yup, still going for a surprise regeneration, or alternatively a surprise reveal of the next Doctor. And I still think there’s a big shock coming at the finale – and that Smith is regenerating this year.

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@phileasf and @ardaraith – he’s definitely acting out of character, isn’t he?

I like the Dalekisation theory because it’s a great explanation of why the Doctor’s been acting steadily more out of character (and out of control) since Asylum. But sorry, not buying any ‘it was all a dream’ explanations until you point me to the blindingly obvious ‘Madame Kovarian sticks her head through the hatch’ type clue that this is a dream. 😀

But Dalekisation – yes, there’s enough there. The missing bracelet, the increasing anger, the people pointing out that he’s behaving in a way that scares them, the normally teetotal Doctor starting to drink, killing Soloman and nearly killing Kaler-Jex, threatening to self-destruct… it’s not as blatant as Mme Kovarian, but there’s certainly enough clues to use it as a child-friendly explanation for why their hero has gone all darkside. The adults might be asked to form their own opinion. 🙂

And remember

Oh, definitely to us. Very much so. I think it makes sense of the Eleventh Doctor’s comment to Amy, in his very first series: “anyone that is remembered can be brought back.” Because that’s what’s happened to the Doctor – in the form of ‘Doctor Who’, the show. He was remembered. And he was brought back.

Maybe we’re about to find out that it’s true in-show as well. 🙂

 

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@thommck – yes, I think there are only three Clara’s. Mainly because I had a serious attack of numerology after Bells of St John/Rings of Akhaten and worked out that the dates in Clara’s various life stories all match in some way to important dates in Doctor Who. Even her mother’s date of birth matches with the first broadcast of the previous children’s SF series produced by Sidney Newman.

Doctor Who has died twice (as the Doctor says in the preview, “I met her twice before and I lost her both times”). So has Clara. So I think there’s only three of them, representing Classic Who, the Movie Who and Nu-Who. Or, in-show, past, present and future. The past and the future both died – the Doctor has to learn to live in the present. 🙂

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@thedoctordude

Yes, she could well know who the Doctor is. If she’s the Doctor’s granddaughter, her mum could have told her. Looking back at the prequel to Bells of St John, two things come across very clearly:

Firstly, she’s very empathic. She picks up on the Doctor being sad and lonely, and her last line about him is “I was talking to the sad man.”

Secondly, her Mum told her not to talk to strange men. And, indeed, promptly takes Clara away. Normal eighties ‘stranger danger’? Or “don’t talk to strange men” because I know that one day, a very strange man indeed is going to come looking for you?

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@polaris – sorry, in hindsight the above might have sounded a bit rude.

What I meant to say was that Clara being an ordinary (ordinary except for having the entirely human psychic ability of empathy) human and the problem being the Doctor is kind of the ‘in plain sight’ solution. Agreed. She’s ordinary. Her ‘impossibility’ is a distraction from the visible evidence that the Doctor’s going increasingly nuts: paranoia, memory loss, do as I say or I kill us all. This madness is going to lead to some horrible disaster (probably involving The Silence) in which a perfectly ordinary girl gets split into three parts across time.

Entirely possible: I just don’t believe it. 🙂

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@polaris – well, yes, but that’s boring.

Remember our mission statement. 😀

 

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though it works almost as well his daughter too

@haveyoufedthefish – yes. I think Moffat’s hiding the solution from the mad theorisers (i.e. us) by making different solutions equally possible. Running through them again, I think we’re still basically down to three main solutions:

Possibility 1. Clara is a copy of the Doctor – a ‘mirror image’.

Possibility 2. Clara is a daughter/granddaughter of the Doctor.

Possibility 3. Clara IS the Doctor. Either pre-Hartnell or the reborn future Doctor.

All three solutions would result in her behaving like a very young Doctor. Possibilities 1 and 3 would explain the ‘Doctor Who’ dates in her life-story. Possibility 2 would mean that the ‘Doctor Who’ dates don’t really refer to her personally, they’re a reference to her ‘re-starting’ the show; the Doctor will again be a wanderer in space and time, travelling with his child/grandchild.

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@whohar – I don’t think they’ll do brother and sister again for a bit, because they did it with 10.5 and Doctor-Donna.

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Oh, and bonkers addition: how about – when the Doctor plans the ‘trap’ for himself, he creates Dalek Clara as a computer download into an insane Dalek and Victorian Clara is run as a Ganger? Rather than her being genuinely split in time?

Or is that explanation too sane? 🙂

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@scaryb – BlueFinPip?

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could River have visited Gallifrey?

River was born after the Time Lords had been sealed behind the Time Lock -which happened in the ‘lost’ period between the failure of the TV movie (Eighth Doctor) and the Ninth Doctor’s return to Earth (Nu-Who).

So the only way she could ever visit Gallifrey is if the Time Lock is broken.

 

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Well, it would make sense of all that Master/Doctor subtext that’s going on. 🙂

That would certainly be one way for Moffat to go all timey-wimey; Clara is the pre-Hartnell Doctor. But I think, when I’m saying Young Doctor, that I’m really thinking our Doctor has been reborn and that’s why Clara sometimes wears a phoenix necklace. She’s the reborn Doctor. The Doctor’s chosen to get rid of all this baggage and start again, but carefully created a situation where Clara could find out Who she is.

So she’s Young Doctor mentally; she’s not 1000+ years old, because she doesn’t have those memories (yet?). Currently she’s a 26 year old version of the Doctor. Very intelligent, wants to travel, more frightened than she lets on. Can’t pilot the TARDIS properly, but finds that exciting rather than scary (there was a distinct ‘woo-hoo!’ the second time into the pocket universe). And very, very young. Much younger in feel than you’d expect of a 26 year old human – because she’s really a Time Lord, and 26 years old for a Time Lord is a young kid, still in school.

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And now I’ve got an image of Clara-as-Doctor hammering on the door of the TARDIS and yelling “Yes! I’ve turned into a woman! Get over it!

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Looking at the image again from the ‘Clara is a future Doctor’ point of view:

It strikes me that – if the image is folded round the crack, then yes – as someone up above whose name I can’t find, sorry, said – Clara and the Doctor are staring rather suspiciously at each other.

What it reminds me of is another Moffat Episode: A Christmas Carol, where we all think Old Kazran is going to be shown his Future. But in fact, it’s Young Kazran who’s being shown his future, so he can change it. It’s a mirror image: we never saw Young Kazran, but he was there all along.

So, turn it around. What if this whole series of episodes isn’t about the Old Doctor being shown/remembering his past?  What if this is the Young Doctor learning about her past?

Final note: if we think of the two images as Old Doctor and Young Doctor, the smaller images are Old Doctor downcast (weighed down by his past), Young Doctor looking back – but running. In the entire image, Clara is the only person doing what the Doctor normally does – run.

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@whohar – either the Doctor or a Dalek, and I don’t think Daleks are really into writing books.

Another example of the Doctor being too locked-onto his past?

 

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So, introducing another bonkers thought to the mix (yes, I have a day off today) – going with the constant ‘breaking glass’ images and combining Clara-is-the-programme with ‘about to break the fourth wall’:

Suppose the ‘fourth wall’ is about to be broken? The Doctor’s about to find out (has found out) that he’s a character in a popular family television series? That all the angst and drama of his life (up to and including the genocide of his own people) is down to a bunch of over-caffeinated writers on a deadline – and the need to please equally over-excited four year olds? That the dimension he’s living in is in fact a ‘Land of Fiction’?

That’d be enough to send anyone to the Dark Side.  🙂

 

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I don’t think we know that this Dr is embarrassed by sex, just sex with humans.

A friend of mine once pointed out that the Doctor’s attitude to sex with River changed noticeably – after the marriage ceremony.

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Maybe Clara is a future incarnation of the Dr come back to save him from his dark self.

@scaryb Given that people are still insisting that the references to the Corsair don’t necessarily mean the Doctor can be a woman, it would be nice to have it definitely, incontrovertibly, in-canon established that the Doctor can be ‘she’ instead of ‘he’.

I really like all the insane theories about the Doctor and River being Adam and Eve to the Time Lords. The one thing that I don’t like about it is that if you make the Doctor his own grandpa then you’re still looking at the past and Moffat, I seem to remember, has said:

“We can’t make this all about looking backwards. It’s actually got to be the start of a new story.”

So I’d take that theory and say ‘it’s about the Oubourous circle.’ They aren’t the Adam and Eve to the Classic Time Lords, they’re the Adam and Eve to the Nu-Time-Lords. 🙂

The Doctor is both dark and light, both last and first. Last of the Time Lords and First of the … whatever they’ll call them.

@haveyoufedthefish, it would make perfect sense that River would be desperate to hide Clara. She herself was kidnapped because she was a human Time Lord. For her baby to have a chance of a normal upbringing, she’d need to be adopted far away from any hint that she was ‘special’. Otherwise the Madame Kovarians of this world wouldn’t see a baby, they’d see an exciting opportunity. Clara, for her own safety, has to look like a completely ordinary girl.

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indeed it would seem “light is the left hand of darkness”

And darkness the right hand of light. Yes. I wonder if – if Moffat’s using a few of LeGuin’s ideas – the Doctor can only defeat the dark side of himself by facing it and calling it by its true name. That is, his own true name.

Or, is he increasingly identifying the dark side of himself with his true name, and his light side with the name of ‘The Doctor’?

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@TooManyPeopleToMentionThemAll – whatever Clara is – daughter, future Doctor, repository of memories – she’s a mirror image of the Doctor. Look at the posters. In over half the posters, she’s placed as the Doctor’s mirror. She’s a reflection of the Doctor; young to his old, uninterested in history to his bowed down by history, all future to his all past – and finally, female to his male. Oh, and they’re both alien to each other.

I don’t actually feel worried about the big kiss @ardaraith; I feel fairly confident that if she is the Doctor’s daughter it will be promptly laughed off with a moment of comic horror. And it would deal in a child-friendly way with one of the very real dangers of ‘blind’ adoptions – that you can later mistake a ‘familial attraction’ as ‘romantic attraction’.

The Doctor and Clara are both developing love for each other (because they’re father and daughter) and because they don’t yet know they’re father and daughter, they’re assuming they’re just ‘in’ love with the other person. Like Amy wanting to leap into bed with her future son-in-law (still astonished they got that past the BBC execs), it’s later going to be one of those embarrassing things – where fortunately, nothing happened beyond a snog.

Because the Eleventh finds sex embarrassing. As Madame Vastra says:

I know how you blush.

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@phaseshift – also sticking with the ‘blue, squeaky and small’ mammalian group. We will not be assimilated! 😀

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Also, the Master knows that “The Doctor” is a title, from which I infer he knows / may know the Doc’s true name

Or he may not – though admittedly The End of Time reveals they’ve known each other from childhood. It’s something we don’t know about Time Lord society; are they a culture that has ‘use-names’ and ‘true-names’? The way they cheerfully accept various weirdos calling themselves The [insert something exciting sounding here] suggests that all the TL names we’ve heard may in fact be ‘use-names’.

Ursula Le Guin used this idea in her Earthsea series: she had children being given childhood names until they were old enough to understand how very important a true-name was. It was also normal to for people to change their ‘use-name’ on reaching adulthood.

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I reckon they asked him to use that to cover up the hints of scottish-ness he couldn’t reign in, but I still think they kept escaping

There is a rumour that RTD had a running gag going with Tennant  – where he’d make sure to script precisely those words  most likely to reveal Tennant’s native Scots.

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Yes, @htpbdet, hope everything goes well.

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 I reckon she’s simply gone a bit trans-pennine 

@haveyoufedthefish – that’s what’s puzzling me. Her first job was four years in Emmerdale and her character was from Lancs; so it’s not like she immediately had to adopt Received Pronunciation. She’s used to using her natural accent throughout a script.

I’ll have to listen next time I rewatch.

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Genuine complaint and there is no non-show reason for it – Jenna-Louise Coleman was brought up in Blackpool, she’s spent years working at jobs that used her Lancashire accent, they’ve even given her screen parents from the area.

And yet she is audibly wobbling between a clearly Northern accent and something much more ‘London’, even drifting into ‘London middle class’. Yet, in The Snowmen, ‘Miss Montague’ had perfect RP.

Similarly, Matt Smith in last week’s Cold War was also audibly wobbling between ‘London’ and Eleven’s normal RP.

So I’d say, yes, rabbit, hole. The rabbit is probably wearing a fob watch.

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The Doctor’s costume is very HG Wells The Time Machine. (1960 film, I’m thinking).  The central figures above are both breaking the fourth wall – they’re looking directly at us. In fact Clara seems to be about to tap on the glass of the TV screen.

I think the pattern on Clara’s dress is supposed to be flowers, but it’s reminding me of a star field. Red, black, white, something like: 

 

In the clips they’ve released, scenes with the Doctor seem extremely blue lit, and scenes with Clara extremely red lit.

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Perhaps his name is the key to the lock on the Time Lords which sealed the Time War and if he utters it or anyone else does, the lock opens?

@htpbdet – it’s still possible that the Doctor saying his name aloud would open the time lock – but nobody else. Otherwise River would have opened it when she whispered his name into his ear.

The other point I’d raise is that River told the Doctor his own name to get him to trust her. This kind of implies that it isn’t anything that could be told to lots of people and it certainly implies that Ten would never dream he could tell it to an enemy.

Granted that Ten didn’t know anything about Trenzalore, his reaction is still a) shocked and b) horrified. Going back to @juniperfish‘s Egyptian mythology, it’s almost like – in telling her his name – he’s given his very soul into her safekeeping.  It both shocks him to the core, and makes him trust River.

Given that the actual syllables of the dratted thing are likely to be utterly meaningless (barring Rassilon or Omega), it’s definitely going to be the reason he keeps it hidden that will prove to be the important thing. And why telling it to anyone, anyone at all signals that he trusts that person beyond all measure.

 

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@theatreguy – yes, it is odd. And while it may prove to be nothing, in the coming next part at the end of Hide, the Doctor says ‘you can have the machine’.

It might simply turn out that he wants to hide what the TARDIS is – but I thought it odd.

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@scaryb – a governess is someone who teaches lessons. Clara is both a nanny (someone who looks after and entertains children) and a governess.

So what did the Doctor need to learn in Asylum of the Daleks, before the memory of the Doctor was forever lost to the Daleks?

That’s possibly not going to be apparent until the finale or the 50th – where we’ll find out if this is virtual reality, or Clara is taking the Doctor where he needs to go. (Which might be why the TARDIS dislikes her – taking the Doctor where he needs to go is her job). But my guess would be that he needed to find out that the Daleks could have caught him in a trap and killed him any time they felt like it – but that they didn’t, because

extinguishing such divine hatred is offensive to us.

The ice in his heart. He hates them so much they see it as holy; he’s become the monsters’ monster. And in fact, in the S6 finale, the Doctor describes himself (to a Dalek) as ‘the Devil himself’.

Well, to a demon – ‘the Devil himself’ is the person they follow. The person they admire. The person they model themselves on. And that would be what the Doctor has to turn away from; being admired by the Daleks isn’t exactly admirable.

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@scaryb

Just one problem – the Dr would never have been near the Asylum if it hadn’t been for Clara.

Yup. If the purpose of the exercise was simply to save the Doctor’s life, Clara should never have gone near the Asylum in the first place, and her presence was accidental.

If the purpose of the exercise was to remove the ‘ghost’ of the Oncoming Storm, she had to be there. Only a dalek could wipe the database. Only a human would understand why they should.

And the Daleks would understand that she was so dangerous, only the Doctor could defeat her.

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@htpbdet – sorry to hear you’ve been ill. Hope it’s all sorted out now.

Clara is definitely a ‘solution’ – if you read her other selves; future Clara and Victorian Clara as having been placed in those times and places deliberately, then you can see that she’s there to save the Doctor.

In the Asylum Clara is in the only position where she can help him. Firstly, no human can survive the Asylum, the nano-wotsits convert them unless they have a bracelet. Secondly, no human could hack into the Dalek’s cloud database. So Clara has to perform the difficult task of being Dalek enough to survive/hack the Daleks, and yet be human enough to remember who she is and to want to save Rory, Amy and the Doctor. Finally, she removes the ‘ghost’ of the Doctor as Greatest Enemy of the Daleks. They now don’t know who he is. Do they even remember the Time War at all? Do they remember any Time Lords? How many ‘ghosts’ did she destroy?

In The Snowmen she has to firstly meet the Doctor – so she’s being a barmaid in the pub near where he investigates, and secondly in a position to know about the pond. Her role in that adventure is mainly to pull the Doctor out of his sulk; he’s retired. He’s lost in so much grief that he’s decided it’s easiest to freeze up and not feel anything, not do anything. Clara pulls him out of that twice; firstly by getting him involved in the mystery of the Snowmen – and after that’s solved, by making him go look for modern Clara.

So she removes the ‘ghosts’ of the Ponds. The Doctor starts looking forward, not back.

In time travel, there really are no such things as ghosts. The Doctor’s current view (Clara’s empathic nature means that she’s almost certainly picked up the Doctor’s real feeling) that he’s talking to ghosts, to the already dead is another mirror-image. The already dead are also the not-yet born.

But in fact, if time travel exists, those who have lived are still living – in their proper time. Between that date-of-birth and date-of-death they are always alive. As long as you remember them, they can be brought back. They are not ghosts, they are the mirror-image – living people who live in your past and your memory.

Yes. She’s a Ghostbuster.

 

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@thommck – different circumstances, admittedly. River and her friends are in a virtual reality run by a young girl in exactly the same position they are. Namely, they’re all dead except insofar as they can ‘live’ in the virtual reality. CAL only wants the people living there to be safe and lets them out (those with bodies to go back to) the second she can.

The WiFi victims are being used for some nefarious purpose. The Doctor never really finds out what – but since Clara is kidnapped and dying, he can make a reasonable guess that this virtual universe is a living hell.

Though I do wonder if the difference in attitude is all part of the ‘sliver in his heart’. It was remarkably un-Doctorish to go down the ‘oh, yeah, it’ll kill them, so what, they’re better dead’ route.

 

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Yes, on reflection I suppose our speculation about S7 is bound to change and alter as the episodes progress. For example, the mad speculation on the meaning of the leaf had a solution in the very next episode.

So keeping our speculation in each episode forum is probably the right way to keep it in historical context, as it were. After all, most of us have come here from the Guardian episode blog, so as long as we all keep in mind that the place for current speculation is the current episode – it should be fine.

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That’s weird. They’ve just closed the Guardian blog – when people were still talking.

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@blenkinsopthebrave (hopefully imbibing freebies in the Quantas lounge) – entirely possible, but if that is the case I’m looking forward to the moment of comic horror  – as they each realise they fancied each other. 😀

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Can happen. Writing SF is quite a trick – and it may well be that he enjoys reading/watching it, but isn’t as strong at writing it.

United is extremely good – as Tennant said in the commentary, it’s not really about football. It’s about coping with disaster.

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Or, Clara is sent by one of the good Time Lords (the Doctor’s mother, or Susan, or both). But it’s not to unlock the Time Lords. They need to be behind a time lock. No, it’s to restore lots of hidden little Time Lord children to their Gallifreyan nature.

Just something that always bugged me about the Time War: given that the Time Lords had the perfect means to hide themselves, why didn’t they at least evacuate the children from Gallifrey? At least The End of Time gave me a partial explanation – they were all as mad as a box of frogs. 🙂

But this bonkers theory would go with ‘Clara is a descendent of the Doctor’. She’s a carefully hidden descendent – but she’s not the only carefully hidden child. Her job is ‘first find the Doctor’ – which is why she’s been scattered through time, to be interesting to him. And ‘then, find the kids’. Which is why she’s so good with children.

 

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It occurs to me that – for a Time Lord – your name is the one constant throughout your regenerations, the one assurance that you’re the same person beneath all these different personas. If he loses/has lost his original name, there’s nothing left except the Doctor. All he now has is (tah-dah!) The Name of the Doctor.

And if the Eleventh Doctor HAS now forgotten his real name, might that be why we need Ten in the Fiftieth Anniversary? Ten’s reaction to River suggests he still remembers his name. 

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Ooh, ooh! ::bounces up and down and squeaks::

And if the Eleventh Doctor HAS now forgotten his real name, might that be why we need Ten in the Fiftieth Anniversary? Ten’s reaction to River suggests he still remembers his name.  (reposting this in the Fiftieth conversation).

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@whohar

I haven’t read the book – I’m dyslexic, and it’s one of those very dense, metaphor laden novels that you flick through briefly and go ‘no chance’. 🙂

I did enjoy the film, however. I suppose The Name of The Doctor could be  ‘Name of the Father’ – Moffat can definitely write on several levels at once, so there’s nothing to say he couldn’t pick a title with multiple meanings. But we are now picking up a lot of references to ‘rose’.

It occurs to me that – for a Time Lord – your name is the one constant throughout your regenerations, the one assurance that you’re the same person beneath all these different personas. If he loses/has lost his original name, there’s nothing left except the Doctor. All he now has is (tah-dah!) The Name of the Doctor.

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It is of course always possible that all these references to Cumbria (formerly Cumberland) are a running gag about a certain Mr Cumberbatch.

I bet those monks were Benedictines 😀

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@jimthefish – did you never see his drama doc ‘United’ (also with David Tennant)? That was pretty darn good as well.

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He picks up the bow tie from the ground where it fell after the doors he tied it to and the house they were in evaporated when the link was broken.

@chickenelly – however, he doesn’t tie it back on. His collar is open when he leaps for the TARDIS.

Currently I’m on the ‘two Doctors because he overwrites time in the pocket universe’ – there’s one bit in particular where bow-tie-less Doctor is running away from the monster, but bow-tie Doctor seems to be running to him. That makes sense if bow-tie Doctor in the first section is an image of the returning Doctor.

@phaseshift – yes, your best chance of long-term survival as an early Companion Relative was to remain strictly offscreen. Most Classic Companions seem to either be kidnapped, have their entire family horribly slaughtered, have their entire world horribly slaughtered or get assigned to the Doctor (presumably with the hope they’d be horribly slaughtered – I bet quite a few Time Lords were placing bets on Romana’s life expectancy). Or, of course, they wander into the TARDIS only to find the Doctor can’t actually get them back home. Or can get them back home, but in the wrong century.

Classic Who had a fairly robust approach to Companion motivation – it usually came down to ‘no actual alternative to travelling on the TARDIS’. 🙂

 

[Bluesqueakpip @replies]

Okay, so – if the Doctor believes a ‘soul’ is just a person’s memories and stories – and he himself is a lost soul (rather than a monster) – is that why he’s losing his memory?

His ‘soul’ is becoming lost.

[Bluesqueakpip @replies]

Seriously though, does anyone on here think love is NOT going to save the day

Will love save the day? Will asgill suggest that liking the finale merely shows lack of critical discernment?

Of course love will save the day! (unless the finale cliffhangers into the 50th) We’re dealing with a producer who, when faced with a space and time travelling central character who can pull just about any pretty girl in existence (“It’s the Doctor, girls, get your coat”) promptly marries the bugger off!

Love will save the day – and then it will have babies. Though, this being a show about time travel, the babies may well be all grown up.

 

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