S33 (7) 10 – Hide

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  • #6399
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @whisht

    I think that Clara is normal – but like us all is capable of amazing things because we all are.

    (apologies – almost needed to get a hanky as had something in my eye)…

    Dammit now a bee has coincidentally flown into mine!

    Seriously though, does anyone on here think love is NOT going to save the day 🙂 The odds at the bookies must be rubbish. Ha, now Moff needs to pull off a 180 degree about-face and wreak bloody vengeance (see my post on the Furies above) in the 50th Anniversary special!

    What do you mean, think of all the sobbing kids?

    You think we’re they’re not going to be sobbing when bloody love saves the day? 🙂

    Stock market run on tissues…

    #6400
    Whisht @whisht

    btw @badwolf, @haveyoufedthefish – I kinda prefer your outlandish-but-poetic-more-scientifically-accurate take on Clara.

    [sigh]

    .

    .

    and @haveyoufedthefish – JLC is smaller on the outside.

    mainly.

    #6401
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Wow! So many posts and bonkers new theories 😀

    @lula Great spot on Cumbria esp with the link to Oswald and Oswin. Anyone spot any Cumbrian refs in Cold War?

    @juniperfish – you’re on fire at the moment (both hot fire and steely determined cold fire!) Your recent post re Alice refs reminded me – I was thinking similar, when it occurred to me that the leap thro the wormhole is not unlike Alice jumping down the rabbit hole. He meets, not a white rabbit but a white suited time traveller

    Ghosts in general – Clara’s comment in the graveyard at the end of the Snowmen re don’t believe in ghosts

    #6402
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Seriously though, does anyone on here think love is NOT going to save the day

    Will love save the day? Will asgill suggest that liking the finale merely shows lack of critical discernment?

    Of course love will save the day! (unless the finale cliffhangers into the 50th) We’re dealing with a producer who, when faced with a space and time travelling central character who can pull just about any pretty girl in existence (“It’s the Doctor, girls, get your coat”) promptly marries the bugger off!

    Love will save the day – and then it will have babies. Though, this being a show about time travel, the babies may well be all grown up.

     

    #6403
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @bluesqueakpip

    unless the finale cliffhangers into the 50th

    Don’t think there’s much doubt about that 😀

    But I agree -love will probably save the day eventually! (Dr Who is a child of the 60s after all 😉 )

    #6404
    badwolf99 @badwolf99

    thedoctordude
    Participant

    @badwolf99 I think that’s a very interesting idea that the universe has recreated her three times. If the universe recreated her, that would explain how she has such complete backstories and how she can have such an effect on events.

    I’m really liking these new theories on Clara. They seem to make quite a bit of sense from what we’ve seen.

    Wow Ive have alot of posts to catch up on.  Will be back on later 🙂   Yeah the re-creation theory seems to fit what we see happen, just a complete new background/life but her abililty  to fix/solve impossible problems with impossible solutions is at the heart of it. She is like an empath who (once emotional enough) has immense power to create solutions.  Im sure being Doctor Who,  human love is part of it but hopefully some science (paradox or otherwise) is in the mix.  The really great part in the posts is that we are seeing her importance/power now in the stories 🙂

     

     

    #6405
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    As @lula has given some information on Cumbria, I’ll confess that I was thinking about Bells of St. John and did have the thought it could be a big in-joke if this series is about to be some secret of The Doctor.

    A priory in Cumbria in 1207? Well it could be Cartmel Priory which was founded towards the end of the 1100s. The last time a “big secret” was supposed to be revealed it was Andrew Cartmel’s “Masterplan”. Something so bonkers even we wouldn’t have thought of it (You can probably guess I wasn’t a fan of the idea and was glad it never was completed officially). You can read about it here.

    We may have moved passed this with references to Kendal and Carlisle though.

    #6407
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @Shazzbot

    The companion’s families have been integral to their travels with the Doctor since the reboot (was it like that in Classic Who, too?)

    Ohhhhh no. If you got to see them at all they usually had fairly rapid exits. If you look at the three companions Peter Davison inherited –

    Adric – Only living relative, a Brother, killed trying to save him.
    Tegan – Aunt left as a shrunken corpse on a main road by The Master.
    Nyssa – Stepmother killed, Fathers body invaded by the Master, and in the following story, she saw her entire planet destroyed (boy, that girl was unlucky).

    Being cast as a family member in ye olden times was like being issued a Red Shirt in the original series of Star Trek. 🙂

    #6408
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Okay, so – if the Doctor believes a ‘soul’ is just a person’s memories and stories – and he himself is a lost soul (rather than a monster) – is that why he’s losing his memory?

    His ‘soul’ is becoming lost.

    #6410
    chickenelly @chickenelly

    …it’s taken me ages to read all the above, however it’s given me time to cogitate on some of my theories which (I admit) are a bit different to everyone else’s.

    First of all *chucks a figurative bucket of cold water on double Doctor theory*

    I don’t think there are two Doctors in the pocket universe.  Sure there are fast cuts, but that’s for atmospheric reasons and to show that time is running strangely there.  He picks up the bow tie from the ground where it fell after the doors he tied it to and the house they were in evaporated when the link was broken.

    *lights pipe*

    1) Clara is an incarnation of the clever snow/water which the GI was cooking up in the pond in the Snowmen episode.  As the Doctor says in the Akhaten episode, (something along the lines of) molecules form and keep forming to create a person who is unique.  In this case the opposite keeps happening, they keep forming to create the same person – Clara.  Clara falls into the snow at the end of the episode, ideal time for replication if you ask me and as the human body is mostly water, those molecules are GI in origin.

    2) There have been at least two characters who have been empty vessels as it were, who then mimic what is being said to them.  The governess in the Snowmen and the spoonheads in Bells of St John.  Both were GI in origin.  Does Clara have this trait?  Of course she did repeat what the Doctor told her to say in Cold War to the Ice Warrior, and had a weird turn of phrase in Hide ‘I’m not happy’ which could be echoing what Mrs tree trunk monster was thinking *note to self, needs work*.  However it could explain why she managed to hoover up all that information when she was uploaded to the cloud network in BoSJ.

    3)The slither of ice in the Doctor’s heart is surely to do with the GI?  Or, perhaps the empath has got it wrong and it is Clara who has the ice heart?

    *puffs on pipe looking pleased with herself*

     

    #6411
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    He picks up the bow tie from the ground where it fell after the doors he tied it to and the house they were in evaporated when the link was broken.

    @chickenelly – however, he doesn’t tie it back on. His collar is open when he leaps for the TARDIS.

    Currently I’m on the ‘two Doctors because he overwrites time in the pocket universe’ – there’s one bit in particular where bow-tie-less Doctor is running away from the monster, but bow-tie Doctor seems to be running to him. That makes sense if bow-tie Doctor in the first section is an image of the returning Doctor.

    @phaseshift – yes, your best chance of long-term survival as an early Companion Relative was to remain strictly offscreen. Most Classic Companions seem to either be kidnapped, have their entire family horribly slaughtered, have their entire world horribly slaughtered or get assigned to the Doctor (presumably with the hope they’d be horribly slaughtered – I bet quite a few Time Lords were placing bets on Romana’s life expectancy). Or, of course, they wander into the TARDIS only to find the Doctor can’t actually get them back home. Or can get them back home, but in the wrong century.

    Classic Who had a fairly robust approach to Companion motivation – it usually came down to ‘no actual alternative to travelling on the TARDIS’. 🙂

     

    #6413
    Polaris @polaris

    @Luna @scaryb in Cold War. I can’t get Cumbria but there is a king…
    Grisenko as in the Professor is an anagram of  King & Rose
    So another Rose reference too!

    #6414
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    It is of course always possible that all these references to Cumbria (formerly Cumberland) are a running gag about a certain Mr Cumberbatch.

    I bet those monks were Benedictines 😀

    #6416
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @bluesqueakpip

    Classic Who had a fairly robust approach to Companion motivation – it usually came down to ‘no actual alternative to travelling on the TARDIS’.

    😆

    I actually forgot in my last post that Tegan left once (aunt dead), was re-united with the Doctor in another adventure that left her cousin traumatised and potentially brain damaged – AND SHE BUGGERED OFF AGAIN WITH HIM.

    Some people just ask for it!

    #6417
    InspectorSpacetime @inspectorspacetime

    Anyone else been picking up on Clara referencing the number eleven in each episode? This one was something like “Whiskey is like the ELEVENTH most disgusting thing ever” or something to that effect…I need to look up the other eleventh references in the latest episodes to recall them…Maybe it’s a hint to her being important to the fall of the eleventh…

    #6418
    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    @juniperfish

    Seriously though, does anyone on here think love is NOT going to save the day?

    I still think there’s an outside chance on the day being saved by 6ft4 shape changing trans-sexual kangaroo named Gerald. But failing that, yes, love.

    #6419
    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    @phaseshift – how about the Kendal Masterplan? (freshly minted)

    #6420
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @inspectorspacetime

    Welcome to the forum. I’m being haunted by images of the third Doctor! Yes, some discussion on the “whiskey is the eleventh worst thing” in this episode. As far as I can remember he hasn’t told her he is is the “Eleventh” so some subtle hints at pre-knowledge perhaps.

    I really must go however – make yourself at home.

    @haveyoufedthefish

    Heheh!

    #6421
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @polaris

    Grisenko as in the Professor is an anagram of  King & Rose
    So another Rose reference too!

    Nice spot 🙂

    #6422
    janetteB @janetteb

    Wow. So many good posts. Too many to comment on. I like the Cumbria/Oswald connection. It may not signify anything, just Moffat’s attention to detail. Does it state where Clara grew up? Our pc is currently out of action so I can’t check. The only place reference I recall is the holiday to Blackpool, Lancashire. Red rose is of course associated with Lancaster & Lancashire borders Cumbria. Don’t see how that is significant though. Could the real clara have been substituted with fake Clara when she was lost at Blackpool and the real Clara is currently composing poems by the shore of one of the lakes?? Ok. Forgot that. I think Moffat is teasing us with all these lovely little clues hoping that, like the Dr, we will be distracted by the details and miss the great big elephant about to stomp on us.

    I am clinging to the mother/governess links. Victorian Clara had memories of making souffles implying that she shared some consciousness with Dalek Clara. Modern Clara doesn’t seem to have any of those associations. She hasn’t asked about the Tardis kitchen one.

    I doubt she will turn out to be the Doctor’s former wife as he has a current wife and that might be deemed to radical for the kiddies, though it is hardly a novel concept. Maybe time lords have arranged marriages and she was the woman chosen by his bossy mother who has somehow escaped the time lock and been splintered in time to trap him. No. I don’t like that theory either. Maybe she was an assistant pre 1963, other than Susan. He might not have left Gallifrey alone. She could have regenerated since then. Something might have happened to her back in his past, the splintering might have occurred then. I suspect that discovering Clara’s identity will create the crisis which drives the Anniversary special.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #6423
    janetteB @janetteb

    Just done a little reseach on Cumbria and found that Moffat is one of the names associated with the Border clans known as the Border Reivers. Maybe the reason for all the Cumbria references?

    Cheers

    Janette

    #6424
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @janetteb

    I think Moffat is teasing us with all these lovely little clues hoping that, like the Dr, we will be distracted by the details and miss the great big elephant about to stomp on us.

    HaHaHa – HIGHLY likely!

    discovering Clara’s identity will create the crisis which drives the Anniversary special.

    Agree with that. Or the crisis is what reveals who/what she is. I think the Clara we are following at the moment is “ordinary” and the first. She seems much less experienced and confident than the others – something that could develop as she travls with the Doctor.  She may or may not evolve into one or both of the others or they may be copies or echoes of her.  The self-fixing paradox idea is intriguing though (and is compatable with her starting off ordinary).

    #6425
    ScaryB @scaryb

    The hints about the ultimate question and the title of the last episode have been signposting “Doctor Who??” so much that I am deeply suspicious it will be nothing of the sort!

    But so long as they don’t actually reveal his real name and/or origin then Ill be happy! (And I’m with @phaseshift on the Cartmel Masterplan. Looms indeed. Pah!! (HaHa also @haveyoufedthefish)).

    Being Moffat I suspect the end of 7.2 will see us going –

    So THAT’s it!

    Of COURSE!

    🙂

    <2 min pause. Cue mass furrowing of fan-brows>

    But… but… that only works if …, but then…, so it can’t…

    Cue much shaking ofpuzzled  heads!>

    😉

    OTOH I can see the name of the Doctor being a strong motivating force (the McGuffin – yay!) for his enemies or for the Doctor himself, if he’s lost his memory completely.

    My prediction is still that the Dr is incapacitated (since…?) by the GI.  Clara has to make him remember who he is (unlike the last reboot when it was Amy who had to remember). Memories upload completes, Dr remembers  and “wakes” up (much gnashing of teeth by GI) – alternate reality that he’s been a prisoner in (doing time?) melts away, to reveal…?! (eg Amy suddenly realising she’s not the ganger but is actually a prisoner and about to give birth).  Cue end titles and massive 6 month wait to resolution in the 50th.

    #6426
    janetteB @janetteb

    And could Moffat resist torturing fans with a six month wait for the resolution. I think not.

    the anniversary special will have to work as a complete story as well though but I am certain that isn’t too difficult ot accomplish.

    And I agree that too much has been made of the Doctor’s name. I suspect and hope that it is never revealed.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #6427
    WhoHar @whohar

    Hey @bluesqueakpip

    I posted a similar “Name of the Rose” comment over on the 50th thread., although not in so much detail as your in-depth analysis. Just to go off topic a bit – I read the book, after a recommendation, several years ago now. I enjoyed it very much but it took me about 100 pages to get into it, perhaps because there was a lot of Latin in there and my knowledge is not really up to scratch. Pleased that I perservered though. The film? Not so much.

    Also, Name of the Doctor is very similar to Name of the Father…we’d just need the Son and the Holy Spirit. Three-into-one again.

     

    #6428
    WhoHar @whohar

    @Shazzbot  Sorry, realised I’d criticised one of your fav movies. I guess if I’d seen it and not read the book then I would have thought it was OK but, once I’ve read a book I never, ever think the movie is up to much. Loved LA Confidential though…

    #6429
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @whohar

    I haven’t read the book – I’m dyslexic, and it’s one of those very dense, metaphor laden novels that you flick through briefly and go ‘no chance’. 🙂

    I did enjoy the film, however. I suppose The Name of The Doctor could be  ‘Name of the Father’ – Moffat can definitely write on several levels at once, so there’s nothing to say he couldn’t pick a title with multiple meanings. But we are now picking up a lot of references to ‘rose’.

    It occurs to me that – for a Time Lord – your name is the one constant throughout your regenerations, the one assurance that you’re the same person beneath all these different personas. If he loses/has lost his original name, there’s nothing left except the Doctor. All he now has is (tah-dah!) The Name of the Doctor.

    #6430
    WhoHar @whohar

    Someone upstream (sorry can’t remember who)  mentioned that Clara may have been inthe Tardis when it exploded, fracturing her across time and space. Two comments on that:

    1. What if Clara was the cause of the explosion? ie maybe it’s only a  single Tardis explosion with Clara was on board somewhere she shouldn’t have been.

    2. If so, how did she get to that forbidden place?

    I kind of like the fact that Clara caused the explosion and was scattered as a consequence but  still prefer the two Tardis collision theory (with Doc 10’s Tardis coming back from the alt dimension he dropped 10.5 and Rose in). Only problem with two Tardis collision theory is that Tardis’s have an anti-collision defence don’t they? Maybe Clara turned it off?

    Well this post is rambling and conflicted…

    #6431
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Ooh, ooh! ::bounces up and down and squeaks::

    And if the Eleventh Doctor HAS now forgotten his real name, might that be why we need Ten in the Fiftieth Anniversary? Ten’s reaction to River suggests he still remembers his name.  (reposting this in the Fiftieth conversation).

    #6433
    WhoHar @whohar

    @bluesqueakpip –  I know very little about dyslexia except the hackneyed “I get my wucking mords fuddled”. I heard it allows some people the ability to think / imagine real well in 3D  but it always struck me as a very frustrating condition. BTW I always want to type your name as Bluepipsqueak – not sure if that’s relevant.

    Anyway,  I suspect you are right – my Catholic upbringing leads me to find religious metpahors where there are none. If I apply Occam’s Razor for a moment and assume Rose referes to the companion, thenhow does that fit in with the overall story arc and specifically, how does Clara fit in with Rose, if at all?

    #6434
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @bluesqueakpip

    The name of the Doctor is.. The Doctor

    I like 🙂

    It’s very sneaky in its precision. Perfect get-out clause. Tells you everything and absolutely nothing!

    @whohar  A few people have mentioned that about the exploding Tardis (Clara in it/cause of her splitting etc). River was also in it at that time – would that make a connection between them? And the unexplained big scary voice was there too.

    re the umbrella stand – could be a reminder that the Tardis has had a redesign. Lots of dualities/doubles in this series and previous – Doctor, Clara and Tardis in 7.  And Clara watching the doctor on a screen again in Hide

    #6435
    Anonymous @

    @whohar – “Sorry, realised I’d criticised one of your fav movies”

    Don’t worry, not one of my faves!  The point was that, as a movie, The Name of the Rose was ‘better’ than the book in that it distilled all of those endless pages of religiosity into a more accessible piece of entertainment.  (And it had Christian Slater, naked.  {flutter} But with that horrifically weird haircut.)

    If there was a Desert Island Discs for movies, LA Confidential would be on my list.  I could watch that movie over and over again.  But the source book?  Really really awful, and I speak as a massive James Ellroy fan.

    #6441
    WhoHar @whohar

    @Shazzbot

    Thanks for the tip – I’ll take LA Conf off my list.

    I liked the layers in THoTR but it was a tough read.

    #6445

    Lest anyone hasn’t mentioned it, re 11s.

    Clara may be heathen enough to consider whisky the 11th worst thing ever, but she also thought chapter 11 was by far the best…

    I think it is just a running writers’ joke.

     

    (And the book of LA Conf is fantastic, but must be read in conjunction with the rest of the Dudley Smith Trio. If you want unreadably bad Ellroy, try The Cold 6000)

    #6446
    WhoHar @whohar

    @IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan

    Now I’m really conflicted reb LA Conf. Shall I shan’t I… 🙂

    #6447
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @badwolf99 a walking time-writing typewriter 

    @bluesqueakpip [an] indigestible leaf of infinite might-have-beens 

    @haveyoufedthefish a big, walking, timey-wimey butterfly effect

    Perhaps we can say that if Clara is a pass-word protected repository of the Doctor’s memories, she is therefore the repository of the Doctor’s heart (s) and soul, downloaded to keep it safe.

     
    This fits with her as a representation of Dr. Who the show (a la @bluesqueakpip) and with her being his granddaughter or great great granddaughter, because I can imagine Moffat liking the idea that one’s descendants are the repositories of one’s heart and soul.

    #6448
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    Ahhh. @janetteb. The Border Reivers.

    I could kick myself for that, because my partner has a Reiver name as well. That could be the link to Carlisle. Here is his family name (along with all the other Reiving families) carved in an underpass near Carlisle Castle.

    Sourcepage: http://briansimpsons.wordpress.com/elsewhere/carlisle-the-great-border-city/

    Maybe that is why he holds Catlisle up as an example of unreason? Why celebrate a people who gave us the words “Blackmail” (after what they wore) and “Bereaved” (To Be Reived)?

    #6449
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    As I’ve not been deployed yet, I’ve had time to put put a long post (sorry) together on a train of thought.

    The Name of The Doctor

    I think I agree that what we may learn is not “Who is The Doctor”, but “Why The Doctor”.

    In the RTD run, the Master (rather sneeringly) suggests “the man who tries to make everyone better”. Later according to River in AGMGTW, the people of the Universe have (in the main) adopted “The Doctor” as a term for healer and wise man because of him.

    In that episode, the Doctor says:

    Madame Kovarian: The anger of a good man is not a problem. Good men have too many rules.
    The Doctor: Good men don’t need rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many.

    Well, all Doctors have rules. On Earth outlined in the Hippocratic Oath. Translation 1 is interesting,

    “I will keep them from harm and injustice” would seem like his mission statement.

    Then read the end of the Oath:

    “If I fulfil this path and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honoured with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.”

    In the first half we had a couple of “Doctor” references to show that people are not directly associating him with the name. His “fame among all men” is fading. This series we have a couple of “Professors” not “Doctors”. Perhaps his erasing of his exploits, reducing his fame has had consequences in rendering “The Doctor” name meaningless. As his fame reduces – he has less of a (mirror) image to live up to and his standards are slipping. The Dark Doctor awakes, if you will.

    In Rings of Ankhaten, the Doctor talks of the things he’s done and they do not work. Perhaps they would have if his fame were still alive?

    Clara uses the power of the things that never happened. When you ponder those “might-have-beens” you are usually indulging in regret that they never happened.

    The only way the Doctor can move on is to remember why he adopted his name and his “many rules” in the first place. Remembering a key event that made him adopt the name and his many rules. A BIG Regret. Get back to basics. A good way of looking back and looking forward for the 50th perhaps?

    #6457
    Bobbyfat @bobbyfat

     

    Hi all, this is my interpretation of the episode.

    We are told the Dr has a slither of ice in his heart. When he goes to the heart of the house, the temperature drops, and in particular he finds a cold spot which he draws a circle around.
    When he did this, I presumed he had found the location of the well, much talked about up to that point, the ghost of the well etc. There is a long association of ghosts and wells, particularly in Japanese folk stories, so much so that wells in Japanese culture are now shorthand for portals to the supernatural / other dimensions (eg Murakami’s Wind-up Bird Chronicles). So the circle suggests some sort of portal, as well as possibly referencing 70s horror movies where Satanists draw chalk pentagrams to summon up the devil.
    When the Dr travels to the forest, something about it reminded me of the scenes in the Matrix in the Deadly Assassin (and this was without knowing that the Eye of Harmony came from that episode). I am convinced that the forest represents some sort of mental space for the Dr.
    In the forest the Dr finds a lost time traveller, who many people have seen as referencing River Song, although maybe there is something of the lost time traveller himself about the Dr, and a monster that the Dr is afraid of, a monster that is actually just seeking its lost love.
    Something about those monsters put me in mind of plato’s theory that humans once had 2 heads, 4 arms, 4 legs etc and were then split in two, leaving us yearning for our lost other half…
    Anyway where I am going with this is that Caliburn House represents the Dr’s physical body, with ice in his heart, and the forest represents his mental / psychic state, fearing the monster within. To connect mind and body requires an empath to serve as a lantern (an odd word to use if she was needed just to connect two physical universes). The blue balloon is his physical body, the red balloon his mental condition which survives deflation (regeneration).
    Why “Hide” – hide AND SEEK – the Dr must search within himself, learn that love is not a monster to be feared. He needs an empath to make the connection and that empathy is actually Clara, who steps through the chalk circle portal and via the Tardis into the Dr’s mental world to save him.
    Thanks for reading if you made it this far!
    PS Emma Grayling – link to Professor AC Grayling?

    #6458
    Bobbyfat @bobbyfat

    sorry about lack of spacing, cant work out how to fix it

    #6462
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @bobbyfat – Gosh I really like that, I like it a lot.

    If we see the  heart of the house as the heart (s) of the Doctor then it’s no wonder there are statues recalling weeping angels in there, because he is still grieving the loss of Amy (and Rory) and they were the beasties responsible for separating him from her.

    This theory of yours fits with what I (and others) were saying earlier – that Clara may be the repository of the Doctor’s memories meaning his heart(s) and soul. Music (or perhaps one Dr. Song) is clearly going to be key to bringing the Doctor back to his heart(s).

    However, I think things are going to get a lot more icy before we get there!

     

    #6465
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    If you go down to the woods today…

    #6469
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    #6471
    Anonymous @

    @wolfweed – I simply adore those Lindalee reviews!  Like her, I didn’t think the episode to be very scary.  But one thing I thought she’d pick up (because the I-hate-horror-movies little child in me thought it was the scariest thing in the episode), and yet Lindalee didn’t – or at least it didn’t make the final edit of her review – was the moment ‘I’m not holding your hand …’

    Another haunted house trope, which I think started in ‘The House on the Hill’ [maybe have title wrong?] which had a young woman in bed, gripping what she thought was the hand of her friend, only to discover in the morning that her friend had been elsewhere all night.  (I haven’t read the book for 40 years and for good reason – that one moment scared the living bejeesus out of me as a child!)

    #6474
    Anonymous @

    @wolfweed and @[me] – it’s Shirley Jackson’s ‘The Haunting of Hill House’ made in 1963 to the movie ‘The Haunting’.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Haunting_of_Hill_House

    “All four of the inhabitants begin to experience strange events while in the house, including sounds and unseen spirits roaming the halls at night, strange writing on the walls and other unexplained events. Eleanor tends to experience phenomena to which the others are oblivious. At the same time, Eleanor may be losing touch with reality, and the narrative implies that at least some of what Eleanor witnesses may be products of her imagination. Another implied possibility is that Eleanor possesses a subconscious telekinetic ability which is itself the cause of many of the disturbances experienced by her and other members of the investigative team (which might indicate there is no ghost in the house at all). This possibility is suggested especially by references early in the novel to Eleanor’s childhood memories about episodes of poltergeist-like phenomena that seemed to involve mainly her.”

    Oh wow, I’m more in love with Stephen Moffat than ever before.  Now that I’m a big grown-up, I may re-read this book because I remember it as being the scariest thing, literally ever.

    “Eleanor and Theodora are in a bedroom with an unseen force trying the door, and Eleanor believes after the fact that the hand she was holding in the darkness was Theodora’s. In one episode, as Theodora and Eleanor walk outside Hill House at night, Theodora looks behind them and screams in fear for Eleanor to run, though the book never explains what Theodora sees.”

    tee hee hee.

    #6475
    Anonymous @

    Also from the Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Haunting_of_Hill_House on Shirley Jackson’s ‘The Haunting of Hill House’:

    Stephen King’s Rose Red is also likely a loose adaption of The Haunting of Hill House; both stories run along the same lines of a “sentient” house and a doctor investigating it with a group of people, and the tragic events that follow.”

    tee hee hee, doubly.

    #6482
    Bobbyfat @bobbyfat

    @juniperfish

    oh i hope so!

    at the risk of pushing my metaphors beyond any semblance of credibility, perhaps the water in the well came from an underground River!

    #6486
    Anonymous @

    @bobbyfat – but … but … there was no well on the property.  Established by the Professor’s speech.

    So, where / what was ‘the well’ in this story?

    I’m quite enamoured of your line “perhaps the water in the well came from an underground River”.  Several people are positing that River Song ultimately gets free of The Library, and that really chimes with her repeated get-out-of-gaol-free times in the Stormcage.  She never really could be held in a gaol, could she?!

    #6494
    Bobbyfat @bobbyfat

    @Shazzbot

    well well, the Professor did say that, or if I remember correctly he said something like it didn’t show on any of the old maps, and no one could find it, but I am speculating that the well was where the chalk circle was drawn, and that it was a metaphysical well, a portal of some sort…

    As for River escaping, anything is possible in Moff’s nu-whoniverse but i think he’d have a hell of a job sorting out the narrative time-lines! my brain bubbles just trying to think about it…

    #6497
    thommck @thommck

    @shazzbot @bobbyfat & all that reminds me of when, in bosj, The Doctor says the victims trapped in the WiFi are in a living hell & are better off dead. Seemed a but harsh, esp as he did almost the same to River in the library.

     

    Maybe he decides to set her free or kill her trying!

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