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2 April 2013 at 12:25 #4015
@jimthefish – to be fair, and just between us, I actually can’t bear to watch Miranda perform either – you think you’ve got it bad? I’ve had to be supportive through ten years of her Edinburgh “shows” … 😀
Please don’t tell her though, she’s considerably bigger than me.. 😐
2 April 2013 at 00:23 #4001@bluesqueakpip – Ha! Monastery/cloister – love it! Ah crap though? Is it really such a bad thing?
@juniperfish – the last line of the full version of oranges and lemons is “the last man is dead”. Go figure …
1 April 2013 at 23:51 #3999Oi! @jimthefish! Watch it – Ms Hart is a friend of mine … 😀
1 April 2013 at 17:53 #3973@juniperfish – good call on the cloister bell! So the thing the doctor is most afraid of … is himself?
And the cloister bell rings because of imminent disaster and it in fact literally “tolls for (because of) thee (the doctor)” – i.e. the doctor is dangerous. Very, very dangerous.
I’ve said elsewhere that I think the big bad (behind a proxy or two) is the Doctor himself and there’s something awful is going to be revealed about him (maybe something he’s suppressed even from himself). And in the new Radio Times Moffatt actually pretty much says as much!
It’s true that the tardis has already exploded, but it has never been explained why. I did hypothesise that maybe the reason for the set change is because if at some point there’s more than one tardis, it will be necessary to tell them apart … maybe river was in *a* tardis that was destroyed in an explosion, but not *the* tardis that was doing the actual exploding (or colliding?)
That’s getting a little bit flimsy though 🙁
1 April 2013 at 16:19 #3963Just a passing thought – “the bells of saint John” (aside from the now obvious phone box pun) made me think of this passage by John Donne
“No man is an Island, intire of it selfe; every man is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine; if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as if a Mannor of thy friends or of thine owne were; any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.”
… an amazing passage simply in that it spawned 2 (if not 2.5) distinct aphorisms … but also pertinent – it’s all of a call to arms (at least that’s how Hemmingway saw it), a realisation that you can’t truly be a recluse, that the death of friends diminishes us as much as our own and an acceptance of the inevitability of approaching death.
If Moffatt is half the smart-arse English graduate I/he thinks he is, I think he’s obliquely referencing this and maybe the title wasn’t quite as throwaway as it first appears.
I bet he was pretty pleased with himself when he thought of that title (assuming I’m right, of course. And of course, I am right 😀 )
1 April 2013 at 14:04 #3955@whisht – thanks for the positive feedback! It does feel like its ticking a lot of boxes, and meeting 2 fragments before the explosion is very moffatt with his habitual non-linear timey wimey shenanigans. Credit where it’s due though, @bluesqueakpip‘s inspired “clara is the show” insight is the keystone to all my reasoning. Respect, respect, respect.
@phaseshift – winter is coming, summer falls, looking forward not back (even “eggs”) etc. That suggestion of “full circle” sounds like hints of a complete reboot to me (a theory I know you’re a fan of).
I’d looked up the data enable life sciences people too but I don’t think they’d reference a real organization (and it’s defo real!). Different logo anyway. Don’t know what to make of that unless it’s a hint for a mini website they haven’t launched yet (I’ll do a DNS search later see what domains the beeb has bought recently)
1 April 2013 at 10:25 #3945Just occurred to me a much simpler explanation for Clara:
The current Clara is now the original ( I think we’re all agreed). There’s nothing special about her except her knowledge of IT is enhanced. The crux is that as a companion she’s simply in the tardis when it explodes ( possibly “run you clever …” are her last words). But instead of killing her, she’s simply scattered through time with no memory except an affinity for kids (Note that in her Dalek guise, Clara was ships entertainment officer, so also probably spent a lot of time minding kids – so a nanny in all 3 incarnations.) and a fixation on her last words. That’s fairly tragic and fits with the tone moffatt seems to be promising. It also fits with her doomed incarnations being slightly older and therefore in the current versions personal future.
Also now I think about it I can’t see a greater “fall” for the doc than losing the tardis and – apparently – a companions life). And he has just made a point about not taking the tardis into battle.( Maybe its more vulnerable now for reasons to be explained in the upcoming “journey to the center of the tardis” ep, possibly connected to the set refit)
After the explosion (and presumably somehow getting the tardis back together) the doc sets out to find one last Clara fragment, and this time not let her die. This may be the plot of the anniversary special. Maybe the numbers in van goths painting give the doc a clue how to reunite the tardis?
I still think outside the narrative, Clara represents the show. Maybe being “exploded” into books, audio, fan fic etc at age 26 is part of that?
What do you think? It would mean there’s nothing special about Clara till she becomes a victim of the docs hubris (for taking her on and thinking he can protect her – note the “under my protection” and “sitting on guard outside” foregrounded just now) and inability to save her (and losing her in all places his “fort” where she should have been safest)
It also means if the special is about getting a new tardis and saving a fragment of Clara, it will also be an allegory for how the show was saved from apparently complete, irreversible destruction. Which I likes, a lot.
I might be wrong but I think this is the first theory which ties exploding tardis (and the painting of it), a great fall/tragedy, fear of killing a companions, clara as “the show” and how Clara fragmented into one theory?
To paraphrase heroes: save the girl, save the show. Thoughts?
31 March 2013 at 23:33 #3925And now for something completely different.
Surprised no-ones mentioned this yet … What does everyone make make of the letter marked DELSA also in claras book ?
31 March 2013 at 21:39 #3919@wolfweed – when you think about it, its astonishing that Eric Roberts only got sucked into the vortex given the remarkable number of things that sucked in that particular production…
31 March 2013 at 20:03 #3909Camels – well in the snowmen, the doc certainly seemed to have the hump.
I thank you.
Also, why don’t the Hugo’s just give moffatt his own category and have done with it?
31 March 2013 at 19:27 #3901@bluesqueakpip – so one of the times Clara died she was the most vile, terrifying, hideous, soulless, pitiless and feared things in the universe … An ill conceived, low budget American TV movie?
Yeah, that works.
31 March 2013 at 13:45 #3815@scaryb – Clara/show’s adventures begin at/with 9? (also would that be roughly when she meets the doc on the swings?)
That fits nicely. In 1998 (age 9) the virgin new adventures just finished so that’s sort of a milestone (ESP since many of the current writers started there, so that’s when they think of when nu who started gestating?)
31 March 2013 at 13:12 #3813Adventures … And still be home in time for tea
… And that’s important, otherwise, “somewhere, someone’s tea is getting cold”?
Maybe a tenuous link to far but given the birthday/filming date coincidence, not entirely improbable?
31 March 2013 at 13:02 #3807@phaseshift and @chickenelly. She defo says “woman in the shop” not “girl”, so river is still a contender. (I made exactly the same mistake on CIF and had to correct myself.)
Given the casting announcement, that she’s worked in a shop, has form for meddling under her own steam (I did not know till today that her own spin off show got as far as budgeting at the beeb) and did use a mobile to contact the doc (can’t remember river using anything as prosaic as a mere phone when you can use mile high letters) Rose looks like shoe-in.
Having said that, if my pet theory today holds water and everyone has got a meddling oar/flipper/sink-plunger (delete appendage as applicable) in, then it may not matter by the end exactly who did what to whom, when.
Sorry to hear about your back old chap. I can only hope the soporific effect of my overlong and excessive posts is in some way analgesic!
31 March 2013 at 12:45 #3805I meant 23 nov not 23 dec for the date soliloqy was filmed/claras birthday above (obviously)
31 March 2013 at 11:47 #3793@bluesqueakpip – just to add to your numerology voodoo:
Age 24 means that Clara was born the year dr who was cancelled (1989), if on the 23 dec then just a) a few weeks before the last episode of survival was broadcast and b) to the day the “somewhere someone’s tea is getting cold” final soliloquy was filmed.
She was killed in the snowmen aged 26 – the age show was when cancelled… And then came back from the dead. In the Easter special no less – reborn?
Missing year 16 is 2005 the year nu who started.
Whether it has any relevance to the plot, she really does seem to represent the show itself, especially its life sustained by fans post cancellation. Personally I don’t think it’s part of the plot, I just think its a nice little Easter egg for fans. It is Easter, after all!
Interesting that she “raises” other people’s children – representing how we as fans were raised on who?
Fits with my theory expounded elsewhere that anniversary will be (in allegory at least) a love letter/thank you note to the fans.
If she is the show itself, why has she been killed and reincarnated twice, not just once (fake cancellation theory again? Does that mean at some point we, as fans, will have to save Clara as she faces extinction?)? What does being uploaded twice (first time unsuccessfully) mean in this context?
Oh I’ve missed this! {takes aim at breeze. Fires}
31 March 2013 at 09:35 #3781Hmmm … I wonder if City of Death is something of an influence for Moffatts master plan:
When Matt Smith was asked to give a clue about the 50th anniversary Episode of Doctor Who By Jonathan Ross he said ‘Paintings’. We’ve unexplained numbers in a van gogh, a portrait of Clara and a painting of the lord of winter in summers fall…
Possibly previous doctors and companions may be giving history little nudges in the right direction in the background, a la Jaggaroth
A big bad in the GI who seems to stuck here and has been here nudging humans history towards it’s own ends over a considerable period (also Jagaroth)… As indeed have the Silence! (that seems too much of a coincidence and implies that they are all actors – Jaggaroth too? – unknowingly implementing someone elses bigger plan over a very long period)
The reveal that the GI has been quietly farming (not ‘hunting’) humans for years reminds me a little of quatermass IV btw … Always found that idea particularly chilling, maybe because it not only suggests helplessness in the face of annihilation but also denies free will; we’re just a crop. You don’t get more powerless than that.
31 March 2013 at 08:41 #3777@jimthefish – given it’s moffatt, it’s probably big bad behind the BB, behind the BB, behind the BB (behind the sofa).
I thought ultimately it might be the doc himself too, but not the valeyard. Stealing shamelessly from total recall, a twist on the doctor loses his memory idea is that he’s always (since we’ve known him) had his memory altered ie he’s not who he thinks he is. The twist is not that he forgets, but that he finally remembers and has to face he’s really something awful. (and chooses to forget again, to go back to being the hero role hed unintentionally carved for himself)
The master with his memory supressed went on to be a hero, so why not the same for the doctor, but over 500 years (50 in ‘fan years’).
Could also tie in with @juniperfish doppelgänger theory – if the real doc goes (back to being) bad, maybe the doppleganger(s) then take up the role of hero to defeat him/turn him back.
31 March 2013 at 01:19 #3771@juniperfish – number 4’s scarf (or one very like it) is draped over the mirror to the right of Clara’s front door. (oh and the bow tie Matt found in a box is number 2’s )
Re “reading ahead”: I do think Amy has implanted ideas in her head via her books (invisible hand(s) at work again); it’s quite possible including number 11’s fate. “summer falls?” Maybe this summer is when the “doctor falls” that we keep hearing about but never materializes. Or that darn silence.
31 March 2013 at 00:59 #3769Nice numerology work, @bluesqueakpip !
31 March 2013 at 00:15 #3761Just some thoughts:
@jimthefish although I think the GI will reoccur, I think what @phaseshift implies is right – the GI is just someone else’s (the true big bad) unwitting pawn… And therefore always was…
Doctors scarf in the hall, River (probably) handing out phone numbers … I get the feeling that other other doctors and companions are invisible guiding hands for the current docs (ie Matt’s) course. In fact, I wonder if we’re going to replay Matt’s trick of revisiting his path in Flesh and Stone but on a grand, 50 year scale: we’ll be reevaluating certain stories, scenes and the doctors actions in old and nu who in a new light as in fact all part of a immense game now entering its end game.
Previous doctors as puppet masters is also a nice way of getting all previous docs involved without necessarily having to have all the actual actors involved…
I also now think “remember you clever boy and run” is an echo of a message through time. Specifically, in the special the doctor will lose his memory so he can’t answer the question “doctor who?”, then at the very end, with danger looming he’ll need to remember again and Clara will say those words, saving his life (because he runs). Possibly it will be the last words of the show. Clara’s importance to the universe is simply to be in the right place, at the right time to say those words and all the other previous docs are ushering her towards that destiny.
19 February 2013 at 00:39 #2757@scaryb :
“Reece Pockney (Alan) as, it seems, a young autograph hunter”
However, as a little throwaway to the audience, I wonder if he’s actually a little Alan Moore ?
18 February 2013 at 23:29 #2755I think there’s a big assumption that a portrayal of Troughton means that must be in the form of the second incarnation. Remember that William Hartnell himself suggested Patrick Troughton could take on the role and from that you can probably assume that they knew each other, perhaps even good friends.
If so, its probably more likely (and maybe even more interesting) that its their behind the scenes relationship that’s being explored – how interesting would it be if they’d discussed how William should work the role long before Patrick ever knew he would take it over, for instance?
On another note, I’ve seen just about everything any of the LoG have ever been in (including on stage and even their very first show at the Edinburgh Festival before they found fame) and imho (even though Reece as Maureen Sowerbutts as Tina Turner may be the single funniest thing I’ve ever seen) I think Reece an actor with somewhat limited range (sorry!); I can’t help but worry that we’re going to see another Shearsmith “turn” rather than some actual, you know, acting. More than happy to be proved wrong though.
18 February 2013 at 14:24 #2741In a plot development stolen directly from the Deadly Assassin, Julian Assange, a man at the centre of a nefarious plot and corruption at the very heart of government puts himself forward for high office to avoid prosecution …
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2013/feb/18/julian-assange-wikileaks-senate-victory
Dr who predicts all! #whodathunkit #thisisnottwitterdummy
12 February 2013 at 23:14 #2645Awww – @bluesqueakpip that kinda kills my next theory: that in the lack of series 8 announcements coincide with a special that kind of wraps up who for good (i.e. he dies) in a shock ending. Production team announce “that’s in, we wanted to end on a high, not ruin it by running it into the ground. 8 seasons is a really good run for a TV prog these days, you didn’t think it would go on forever, did you?” etc, etc.
Then secretly they orchestrate a grass roots campaign, backed by newspapers, to bring it back. Shades of “doctor finally defeated by his greatest enemy – the BBC” from the 90’s.
BBC eventually caves in and low and behold, they had an xmas special all along, it was just a ruse to big up the show after all.
Hows that for breaking the 4th wall @blenkinsopthebrave? That’s what I call an interactive audience experience!
All bobbins though. B.O.B.B.I.N.S.
12 February 2013 at 23:04 #2643OK – lets summarise how this thread is going in video form:
😀
9 February 2013 at 10:16 #2527@phaseshift – Eddies in the space time continuum? Is he now… What’s he doing there?
8 February 2013 at 22:21 #2503I have to admit I’d not given much credence to the wrapping of the current team since they seemed to be having such a ball, but in the last few days given Matt is clearly trying to break holywoodland … yeah, now I think its now more likely than not.
Moffatt to go too … well given how nervous he seemed in recent interviews about getting the 50th right, I can easily imagine him on the night of the 23rd shouting “START THE CAR!!!!”, slamming the tape into the VCR, hitting play then high-tailing it out of BBC TV centre and straight to the airport for the first flight to south america, never to be seen again. So maybe.
For reasons I’ve stated before. I don’t think Gatiss will replace him. It’s the BBC’s choice, not the current showrunners (you get interviewed for the job like any other, and judged on past performance. There’s no heir apparent, its a corporation, not an empire), and I don’t think they’ll have enough confidence in him as a showrunner, or feel that he can do a family friendly show based on his previous output.
TobyW is the best candidate imho. He’s shown he can single handedly run not one but two previous shows successfully and he’s shown he can target demographics that Dr Who struggles with with No Angels (Gatiss has only ever had success as part of a team). Even though I’ve never been struck by his who scripts (but I adored Being Human and NA) to the people paying the bill’s he’s a safe pair of hands in the light entertainment mould of both RTD and Moffatt. That was clearly a formula that worked, why mess? Gatiss looks too fringe, maverick and frankly just a little bit weird (in a good way, imho. I loved LoG even more than Tobys shows) in comparison.
Also, consider that Being Human may be wrapping because the BBC offered him DW, but only on the condition he didn’t try to run 2 shows at once. If that’s the case, clearly they won’t be able to be entirely honest about why the show is ending yet. The timing of announcing its been axed when the series has already been produced with a grand finale suggests that this has actually been planned for a while …
A complete reboot would be the perfect time for a all team change too – I think one theory definitely supports the other.
8 February 2013 at 01:15 #2479@rob – of course! Daleks love all things Viennese, especially the biscuits.
Not a lot of people know that.
7 February 2013 at 13:25 #2461@rob – Oooooh I do like plots rooted in quantum mechanics: In fact may have just had a metacrisis in the trouser area :O. In other words: like!
Chris Bidmead will forever be a hero for rooting not just a story but half a season on the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Which by the way: if you can’t fight city hall, and you can’t fight entropy, does that mean logically city hall = entropy ? No wonder I can never got my parking permit revalidated …
7 February 2013 at 13:16 #2459@rob / @juniperfish – “what sort of music would [Daleks] create?”. Waltzes of course!
7 February 2013 at 00:12 #2449Actually @whisht, you’ve given me an idea. The phasing you’re describing sounds a Tharil (Warriors Gate). Tharils are facinating, possibly the most morally ambigious creatures the Doc ever encountered. Once they were a cruel and tyrannical race, by the time the doctor meets them they have been enslaved by the races they once terrorised. They may be the only race facing obvious injustice they Doc seemed to have reservations about helping. Romana leaves the Doctor to help their fight for emancipation.
My Doctor who monster would be … Romana. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist: like the Doc she’s been adventuring across the universe emancipating the wronged, and like the Doc and from all she learned from the the Tharils, she has become incredibly powerful – like omega, nearly godlike.
However … somewhere along the way, she has lost her judgement and clashes with the doctor one either side of a war – except from her perspective, it’s the doctor who has horrifyingly been corrupted and is supporting the side of injustice. And because of their history and disbelief she has really wandered so far from the path, the Doctor repeatedly pulls his punches, where as Romana gives no quarters and somehow tragically keeps misconstruing the Doctors actions.
Also, as we know, all Timelords left to their own devices go ga-ga, so it’s inevitable, so why fight it? Can’t fight
city hallpsychopathic timelord tendencies, dude.(Yeah i know that’s a cannon issue as I know in the New Adventures Romana returned to gallifrey and became president. Lets just pretend that never happened as my idea is better)
Or, even better … all the above, but substitute for Romana … … Jenny! The Doctor would literally be fighting himself. It would be just like the Valeyard. Except, y’know – good.
Apologies @whisht for completely co-opting your excellent original suggestion!
6 February 2013 at 19:28 #2443@rob – Michael Gove?
Also has anyone noticed the resemblance between Michael Gove and Rich Moranis:
Michael Gove: http://i2.listal.com/image/196630/500full.jpg
Rick Moranis: http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/1/23/1358930222219/Michael-Gove-010.jpg
… and you never see them in the same room …
6 February 2013 at 18:52 #2441@miapatrick – I dug up 2 photos:
http://fandomania.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/16/dw602-2.jpg
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110831163047/tardis/images/8/86/Amy-and-baby-melody.jpg
Although there minor continuity problems (e.g. hair up instead of down) there’s nothing that explicitly rules out the picture being taken at Demons Run. Side by side seems highly plausible, in fact.
6 February 2013 at 18:35 #2437@janetteb – that was the first thing I thought of too, but it doesn’t quite gel with the way Karen phrased it. It was huge (and awful) revelation, but it doesn’t “deal” with “[not being] allowed to physically raise Melody from a baby” as Karen phrased it. Karen phrases it like the revelation she means mitigates the Melody tragedy, not compound it further.
I’m probably reading to much into phrasing by an actor caught with a difficult plot question on the hoof, and given that they didn’t even know that River was her mother at the time of production (they apparently filmed the end of AGMGTW in such as way that only some of the crew knew, but almost all the cast didn’t, even if they were in the scene) I can’t believe that Karen actually has any knowledge of future events, only what they’ve already filmed (and even then, maybe not exactly what they’ve filmed means in context).
So on balance, you’re probably right – unless they’ve already filmed her future scenes, of course, while on location in NY (handily with a limited core crew with less chance of a leak) …
6 February 2013 at 03:12 #2423@miapatrick – In Mawdryn Undead it was more or less obliquely confirmed that a time lord can only have 12 regenerations (13 incarnations) and the doctor at the time was on his 5th (i.e. that there was no incarnations before Hartnell). In the Sarah Jane adventures the Doctor states that he can regenerate 507 times – but there’s a good chance he was just being flippant (and tbh 507 doesn’t really fit with the idea that the Master used up all his regenerations. You’d really have to be regeneration-happy to get through more than 500)
I had forgotten about the photos I’ll dig around for some copies and see if inspires some mad thoughts!
5 February 2013 at 02:40 #2407@blenkinsopthebrave – yes you absolutely must! Neuromancer, Snowcrash and Accelerando are all superb books with very different takes on what it means to be a human living inside the machine. All cracking good page turners, to boot.
The Altered Carbon trilogy is a stonking good read too, with a take on what it’s like to be “sleeved” (sometimes involuntarily, and sometimes technically reborn) in new bodies around the galaxy – maybe this is a influence for Clara too …
5 February 2013 at 02:02 #2403@phaseshift – interestingly Baker says that his most favourite thing ever about being who was meeting kids and being 100% in character for them, so you probably made his day as much as he made yours.
Hmmm memories – weirdly I remember being aware of the show but not especially connecting to it as a kid. I can remember Daleks, so I must have watched Genesis and Destiny, but that’s about it. Like @jimthefish my main connection was through the target novelizations – I don’t think the BBC production values (ropy effects and iffy acting all) could compete with my imagination (which was done exclusively by ILM).
I probably didn’t watch in earnest till Davison, and drifted out during McCoys tenure (Really catching it at it’s best there, dude – Androzani excepted), what with Uni, computers, music, booze, girls and so on. Never read any new adventures (except lungbarrow, and wished I hadn’t). It took till nuwho before BBC production ability caught up with the potential of the show, I guess (and getting all the uni, computers, music, booze and girls out of my system in the meantime, of course).
But coming at it from books really focussed my mind forensically on how storytelling actually works (I rarely fail to predict a plot twist), and the show always had the very best scripters working in UK television clearly having a ball, so how better to see how the mechanics of drama and comedy function (and it clearly rubbed of on the current generation of script-o-nauts too).
I’m fascinated by how the piecemeal, inconsistent stories (and occasional attempted fixes) with no overall direction came together into the “canon” – a long form story which only a lunatic could write; arguably no sci-fi canon has ever been (or will ever again be again) written this way.
And of course I fell in love with the idea of the doctor – having the nerve to just wander the world without ties or worries (any day now I will do this. Any day now. And have adventures), being British-to-the-Max, taking a stand against the immoral unarmed or without even a plan (I hate planning), there’s no problem that some disarming humour, humanity and liberal application of brains at the last minute won’t solve. I try to emulate all of those, with some Han Solo style laconic cynicism thrown in. I don’t have any illusions that I pull neither off and actually come across as an over-opinionated and needlessly sarcastic Italian with a slightly absurd dress sense.
I also have a nerf gun on my desk at work, so technically I’m not unarmed either …
4 February 2013 at 23:58 #2399I did once bump into Sylvester – and he pretty much dresses exactly the same in real life, btw – at a film at the Cameo Cinema in Edinburgh about ’95 (Madagascar Skin I think – execrable film – or maybe Dead Man). He was driving an old red Ford Escort if I remember right.
4 February 2013 at 23:39 #2397Something else I stumbled upon – an interview with the cast
where karen seems to indicate there’s a little more to her/rivers story: “[in answer too not being] allowed to physically raise Melody from a baby? … there’s a pretty huge revelation along those lines … we are going to learn something very, very vital to that story line. And it’s going to be dealt with through that”Best guess: Amy & Rory are finally revealed to have found and raised the newly regenerated River/Mel in New York after all.
Also – anyone else notice the omega symbol on Melody Ponds cot?
a) seems like the reoccuring omega symbol (e.g. alpha-omega insignia) is not a coincidence
b) seems like melody/river might still be involved/significant
c) I can’t help also noticing River was named after the river in the Gamma Forest. Too many Greek letters to be a coincidence (and also that the doctor kept telling young Lorna Bucket to “run” …)I don’t think the River story has quite “run” its clever course …
4 February 2013 at 23:37 #2395Did someone order a bonkers theory?
@blenkinsopthebrave & @phaseshift – confine speculation to just moffatts own universe? OK I can work with that: I can easily buy the idea that moffatt has a vision and is hubristic enough to only work within the narrative reach of his own creation(s).
However, though moffatt doesn’t tend to reference other Who writers, he does tend to overtly reference external influences, which brings me too …
@whisht … “i snow” eh? Well moffat has appropriated the time travellers wife for the concept of River (a love story out of sequence). Is it possible he’s now referencing Neal Stephensons seminal Snowcrash? There are some interesting parallels – Snowcrash includes:
-word(s) as a virus that affect/reprogram both humans and computers (hello Clara?)
-the virus is protected by a religious cult (“Cult of Asherah” – the Silence is a religious order, as are the Headless Monks, Anglican marines and Father Octavian’s lot.)
-the linguistic virus/computer virus is both the personification of and the creation of a goddess (Asherah. Oswin means goddess, I think we established somewhere?)
-ancient humans were immunised from the language virus by essentially losing the ability to speak the original language (sumerian). Silence will fall, so that the question will not be asked?
-the story moves interchangeably between the real world and an artificial construct called the Metaverse. Clara lived in an artificual world, River ended up in one and we’ve speculated that the fairy tale tinged universe actually is one.
As a writer I think moffatt would be powerfully drawn to the idea of words that are the low level programming language of the brain. To some extent, River has said as much (with the “what Doctor means” speech).
Which (finally) brings me to: what do we make of moffatts recent statement “the doctors greatest secret is in jeopardy” for the next 8 episodes?
One obvious interpretation is that someone will uncover who he really is. The doctors real name seems to be part of this, which implies he’s not “nobody”, but a name that’s significant, that will be recognised or is important. I’ve never liked the idea he’s “someone” for the reasons I’ve given elsewhere – but the above might give an alternative explanation for why the Doctors name is significant and can’t be revealed. His name is in fact one such powerful (deadly, even) word.
It also explains why the doc must keep his name hidden when no other Timelord apparently seems to (Master excepting).
I’m feeling this idea has the lowest Bobbins Quotient (B.Q.) yet. Thoughts anyone?
No coffee was harmed in the formulation of this theory.
28 January 2013 at 09:34 #2039Also the treasure hunt form is a perfect form for implying tension and therefore feels exciting and epic (just ask Dan Brown and Homer) : race to Clara (lose), race to HOO(lose), race to omega(lose), race to gallifrey(lose). All hope lost. Deus ex machina. Win, again the odds. Happy audience.
Moffat will be looking for a guaranteed “home run” story format that is both exciting to non fans, oozes fan references but the fan references are only mcguffins to kick start the story. This is the best candidate I’ve seen so far…
** should read “do a deal with omega”
28 January 2013 at 09:22 #2037@blenkinsopthebrave – well they have made a point of showing skaro survived so the HOO didn’t detonate. So what happens to it? Let’s say daleks captured it as spoils. By their standards its not too formidable a weapon so simply possessing it is not itself a crisis. But it has a connection to both the doctor and omega – could the daleks use it to find and release omega, and use or do a with omega to open the time lock to destroy gallifrey? He would and he’s probably the only man who could without the key?
Another possibility for Clara is that she’s the personality of or a message from the captured HOO? Or a tamper warning from the lock itself?
So we have a plot excuse for a major baddie mash up and it not only resonates with multi earlier anniversaries it literally carries on where they left off. I think you’re on to something!
And this is just the mcguffin, it in no way interferes with the idea of it concluding with a reboot.
28 January 2013 at 02:02 #2031@jimthefish – Re: “fall of the eleventh”. While this could mean the death of the Doctor, it could also simply mean simply “fall from grace”. Given that the Doctor is in some way currently engaged in an erasure of his own myth, to (deliberately or otherwise) disgrace that legend would fit.
Can’t help thinking that references to the “fall of Arcadia” are there to prime us to think about “fall” in the military sense, thus misdirecting us from other interpretations.
@bluesqueakpip – “the eleventh hour” – I only just got that title pun. Only taken me 3 years…
28 January 2013 at 01:09 #2029@jimthefish – neat: so basically what Morbius was doing physically in fact all timelords are unwittingly doing psychically? The last dark cost that Rassilon (it’s always Rassilon) bequeathed on an unsuspecting Gallifrey; a sort of Soylent Green horror reveal of what extending their lives actually cost…
That.Is.An.Epic.Idea – and I’ll tell you why: the Doc would have no moral choice but to not only relinquish all his regenerations (and in the doctors words from Mawdryn Undead: if he can’t regenerate, he’s no longer a timelord) but to also persuade all other TimeLords to do the same. So that would mean the de-facto end of the TimeLords … DW ideas don’t get bigger than that!
(Unfortunately, it would also kind of kill off the dues ex machina that allowed DW to continue so long – regenerations – so you’d have to think of a clever get out clause that allows regeneration to continue just for the Doc – maybe via the flame/elixir on Karn?)
27 January 2013 at 19:34 #2019@craig – I’m a professional cynic (but my heart’s not in it) so I’d tend to think like a raston warrior robot, he’s playing with us.
The more that I hear that a full reunion is either not logistically possible (e.g. because Chris doesn’t want to do it, too old etc) or technically (because computer graphics aren’t there yet) the more I think that’s the T.V. equivalent of being told “oh we didn’t arrange a party for you this year” all week, before … well if I told you, it wouldn’t be a surprise now, would it? 😀
27 January 2013 at 19:22 #2017@scaryb – what got me thinking of the “all over TV” idea was Mark Bentons collection of pictures of the Doc through recent history (not that it made a lot of sense in the show, given the implication was that he’d only recently regenerated, and hadn’t had a chance to appraise his new face yet).
Also didn’t Harry Hill do something like this for months, with a certain cuddly toy appearing randomly in the background of other peoples live TV shows throughout each week? Matt is very nearly a cuddly toy, imho …
27 January 2013 at 19:08 #2015@jimthefish – I have to agree that although I admire the goal of the Cartmell Master Plan – re-injecting mystery – I was deeply unhappy about the execution, especially Lungbarrow. For me the joy of the Doctor as a lead character is that he’s isn’t armed, isn’t a vigilante, he’s NOT a superhero, he wasn’t “chosen”, he has NO special powers. He’s just a galactic Huckleberry Finn, but when he finds something wrong, an injustice, he stands his ground, he doesn’t walk away (though he did at first!* But Ian and Barbaras liberal teachers idealism gradually rubbed off on him and the virtuous circle continues through Sarah Jane, Rose, Romana and Cap’n Jack, perfectly encapsulated in Harnells goodbye to Susan).
Therefore any of us could be an Earthly Doctor – if we just had the nerve, and I think that’s why the character is so inspiring. Cartmells “the Other” concept kinda pollutes the purity of that idea, for me.
(Actually though, mostly it was actually the scheming CIA of Pertwee’s tenure and Tom Bakers first season that I was thinking of though rather than Cartmell era TimeLords)
@janetteb & Jim – I love your thoughts about the nature of Gallifreyan society and @scaryb I think your Gormengast reference is spot on; I’d be amazed if that hasn’t been an influence on Mr Dicks et al. Jim I think you’re right that TL is a rank rather than race. I’m not entirely sure though that to ascend to lordship is a right available to all Galifreyans (e.g not for guards as Janette notes), so there may be a caste element to Galifrey (as you suggest, @scaryb). Given the Doc told Sarah other races can’t even visit Galifrey, it seems unlikely its available to other races …
@scaryb – interesting thought about what drove the TL’s over the edge to consider Galactic Genocide. My feeling is that the time war was only ever about self-preservation rather than any concern for the rest of the universe – the TL’s foresaw daleks eventually subjugating Galifrey and if ending the universe is what took to prevent that … so be it. In the 50’s US and USSR generals considered frankly insane “survivable nuclear first strike scenarios”, so this is really just an extension of the “TimeLords as sociological satire” idea that Janette expanded on.
Will TL’s feature more? I think opening the TimeLock is inevitable, but the more the TL’s are in it, the more (as Cartmell felt) it defused the sense of mystery around the Doc. Given that Moffatt seems to be all about bringing a hint of magical-realism to the DW experience, that’s suggests it won’t be quite that simple. Bring back the TL’s and reignite the mystery? That’s a tall order and maybe something we could have some fun theorising around …
* Yeah I know that doesn’t really fit with my earlier comments – unless he started an idealist, became jaded on the way to Totters Yard and contact with Ian etc reawakened it).
25 January 2013 at 00:38 #1895@craig – that’s where Destiny of the Dali’s went wrong imho: too many melting clocks and lobster telephones
25 January 2013 at 00:29 #1893OK I take the “Doc made the Lodgers Tardis” idea back. I just actually skipped through the Lodger (I was working from a hazy 2 year old memory) and clearly I’m talking. Complete. Bobbins.
I’ll stick to tea in future!
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