S33 (7) 13 – Nightmare in Silver

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@ardaraith @thommck

The problem with the Silence becoming all powerful is that no-one would remember, LOL.

If he has successfully erased himself completely (the cyber planner suggested it was still an ongoing process (in fact, hold on a minute! When’s he doing that erasing? We’ve not been told it’s ongoing!! <stamps foot> )) that would fit with @bluesqueakpip‘s The Doctor Must Die theory. In a show where memories are currency, if no-one remembers you, you are effectively dead – more than that, like the effects of the crack in time, it will be like you never existed. Especially he fixes that “doctor shaped hole”.  Although the Doctor will still be physically alive.

Once all his ID nos – NI, passport, driving licence, birth cert etc are deleted from the system AND he remembers to delete all his facebook, twitter, tumblr etc accounts (and not forgetting all the tagged photos) – he’s a non-person.

I’m liking this more and more.

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@scaryb and @whohar– I would be honoured- so long as the fish have no objection? 😉

[SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe]

@scaryb A Time Lord, inc the Corsair (love that one)

That’s mine! 😀

A reincarnation of any previous companion (anyone but Mel!!!!)

I saw a suggestion elsewhere that she was River. Yes really.

A present to the Doctor from the universe

I quite like this one.

In a show where memories are currency, if no-one remembers you, you are effectively dead – more than that, like the effects of the crack in time, it will be like you never existed

Yes. So when pressed to truthfully answer a question that (I think) hinges on whether you’re alive or dead, you can lie. Rule One.

[Anonymous @]

@bluesqueakpip – re http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/forums/topic/s33-7-13-nightmare-in-silver/page/10/#post-9407

That was seriously funny – more so because of the grains of truth you incorporated.  And the last line, after all that hilarious madcap-ness, was just sublime:

“Strax, Madame Vastra and Jenny will have to walk home.”

[SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe]

@ardaraith OH!! Could Clara be either RiverSong OR RiverSong’s granddaughter from an alternative timeline??

That’s possible and could, in that mind-frying way, explain how she didn’t recognise the River (theory of course) who gave her a very useful phone number. Stumped about how River would know her though! Well, no, there is that whole River’s past being the Doctor’s future thing. Paradoxes eh? 😀

Yeah, that works. I think.

Oh yeah, that discussion of River and Romana nonchalance over regeneration. Didn’t the Master influence his change from Yana? Although, yes, I suppose he was dying at the time. Makes you wonder why the Doctor hasn’t gone ginger.

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

Fetch a mop…

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

Okay – well…

I think Clara is a normal human who makes herself Impossible this week in some paradox thing (linked probably to the TARDIS but not sure) and that the GI will either possess or kill the Doctor and that Clara will save/stop that in some timey-wimey way. I don’t think River will die; I don’t think Clara is a Pond.

I have no idea where Trenzalore is – but the photos released seem to suggest Gallifrey. Which seems odd to me – Time War and all that…

I doubt that River even knows who Clara is, but if she does, I bet she will not approve.

I also feel certain we will have a cliffhanger that will lead to the Anniversary special.

But otherwise – no idea. Not sure if memories has just been a distraction all along. Cant work it out because I felt so sure before that Clara was a construct but, now, not so sure.

Have a wonderful night tomorrow night all – I am not going to be able to see it til middle of next week at the earliest – so farewell for now.

And happy happy theorising.

xx

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

Just noticed in NIS, a nice little Rory reference: When the doctor gets to the castle and the soldiers draw their guns ‘don’t shoot, I’m nice!’

(in TGC: Rory:’ Don’t shoot we’re nice’

Amy: Did you just say ‘Don’t shoot, we’re nice?’)

[OsakaHatter @osakahatter]

ok, my predictions:

Clara – thanks to @pedant  ‘s spot on It’s A Wonderful Life having a guardian angel named Clarence, I’m going with Clara is there to convince the Doctor of his importance to the universe.  We’ve been seeing flashbacks to examples of the benefits of the Doctor intervening, Clara is telling him these stories, while substituting as a generic companion because she doesn’t know what the other companions have been like (so we get no feel for her because we still haven’t met her being herself).  We’ve also seen the Doctor wanting to jump off the bridge and remove himself from the universe, but we’re yet to see the universe with no Doctor – so I guess this is what we see in TNoTD.  At the end of which, the universal Bedford Falls will come to the Doctor’s aid and he’ll be reunited with his wife.  Clara gets her wings (learns to fly the TARDIS) but is scattered through time and space by some twist at the end which sets up the 50th.

Doctor – his name is the password for something.  I’d guess the timelock because I can’t imagine anything else that important.  Think the bomb in NiS is foreshadow of this.  I’m guessing this is the thing that scatters Clara through time and space, so he ends up creating his own Impossible Girl.  The speaking of his name (which we won’t hear) will not actually be related to the question being asked.

The Question – Doctor Who.  I don’t think this will be in terms of what’s your full name?  Dr what? etc.  I think there is going to be a critical moment when someone asks, Doctor? Doctor Who? Because no-one has ever heard of him.  I’m going to take a stab in the dark that the Silence will fall because they need someone to recognise the doctor to help defend their actions in some way.  But no-one knows who he is, just asking .Doctor who?’ and then resuming their assault on the silence.  (We only did questionable things to you to stop the Doctor.  Doctor?  Doctor who?  Stop lying…)

Reset – suspect this is Moffat hyperbole again, but at most, I’m guessing that the Doctors memories will be gone, so old enemies will seem new again, along with said enemies not knowing him.

Anyway, enjoy the show one and all, and I look forward to the bone picking from tomorrow evening onwards!

[Bobbingbird @bobbingbird]

I’ve avoided the web all week – and have no idea what is going to happen. Tomorrow will be hard in the colonies not even peeking here or at the Guardian.

So my predictions:

Multiple universes colliding or crossing over for the briefest of moments – as posited by @juniperfish. It would answer all the mysteries we’ve been mulling over, as well as apparent plot holes. How this has happened: no idea, but I’m going for Omega, because I want it to be him.

The game changer: River has The Doctor’s baby. This changes the whole future and past of The Doctor. Absolute proof that he is not celibate. Opens up a whole new life and 13 new regenerations, and loads of possibilities.

Feel free to laugh.

Back into hiding until Sunday night.

[Bobbingbird @bobbingbird]

oh, and the Claras will somehow be fused into one full human being. All her inconsistencies are intentional. We will see a much more rounded Clara in series 8.

[thommck @thommck]

Just been listening to my wife’s theory. Considering she hasn’t been enjoying this series & only pays it half her attention, she has picked up on quite a bit.

She believes Clara is a construct & not a real human. Mainly because she doesn’t have any major opinions of her own and not any relationship with her dad.

[Timeloop @timeloop]

@wolfweed nice pic!

[Anonymous @]

@thommck – your wife is right in that it’s distinctly odd that Clara’s dad hasn’t been shown (other than in the scene meeting her mum, and at mum’s graveside).  Odd, that is, in that since 2005, the companion’s families have tended to be integral to the stories.

However, Amy’s family was absent until the wedding scene, and no more was heard of them since.  Rory’s dad showed up quite late in the Amy/Rory arc.  So a lack of family appearances for Clara harkens back to earlier companion stories (grateful thanks to everyone here who has enlightened me on that!).

Your wife’s point about Clara not having opinions, though, is quite interesting; especially for someone who (as you say) has only been paying half attention!

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@Shazzbot @thommck

Re Clara’s Dad – I was thinking that too, but someone reminded me that he left her a concerned phone message (cos he hadn’t heard from her) in BoSJ. It’s her mum that interests me -she’s the one the odd stuff seems to happen to – the dad presenting her with  the baby (usually other way round), the leaf, the I’ll always find you… don’t know how she died either. And there are the 2 missing years in Clara’s diary – age 16 and 23 – just meta refs for the show being “killed” in 89 and 96,or something else?

Sorry to disagree with your missus Thommck (and she’s not the only one) – but I think we’ve seen lots of times when Clara feels things/reacts – after finding the bodies in CW, empathy in Hide and in NiS (“that’s horrible“). But she’s also very young, as in inexperienced; she’s very nervous not to put a foot wrong – the Dr scares her sometimes, remember (JttCotT). we’ve also seen her excited at travelling with the Dr. But she has problems with her own personal memories.  Or else yes, she’s a construct learning how to be a companion 😉

Prediction – as the final knock out blow, just as we’re all reeling from whatever last 3 minute gamechanger reveal that Moff has put in place (having gone thro an emotional episode when we (and the Dr) suddenly understand and bond with Clara), she’s taken away from the Dr and split across time and space.

[Timeloop @timeloop]

Im exited to see which theories of us are fact and which are not! Hopefully we have come close in some way…

Comgratulations to everyone who was not spoilt!

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

Dr Who theories: Happily I’m in the dark as to the true answers. The possibilities are (almost) infinite…
I’m sure we will all kick ourselves once the credits roll – or maybe not – perhaps the clues were as cryptic as a Ted Rodgers 3-2-1 Q&A?
Did that leaf fall or was it pushed? Who in that shop gave Clara the Dr’s phone number?
Who is Clara? Why is she The Impossible Girl?
A sex change? An upgrade?
A twin? A subset? A reflector? A sliver? A shard?
An echo? A future echo bleeding back(wards)
Someone who’s been in the Dr’s cot? Family?
Was she adopted? A Tenza?
If she’s ‘Dr Who the Show Incarnate’, then she’s not a zombie (or is she?!?). The show died and rose from the dead- it’s not a reboot, it’s more like version 2.1 (yet a continuation)…..
The Ghost of Universe 1.11?
An Angel?
A Valkerie?
Queen of the Universe?
The Host of The Great Intelligence?
A Song Key?
A Nanny?
A Granny?
The Watcher?
The Dr’s 2nd cousin twice removed?
His girlfriend? (The Dr is a bigamist, remember)
Any combination of the above (&/or others)
On the Dr’s name: I assume if this is answered at all it will result in a million questions…
The expectations for this episode are huge – Presumably we’re about to learn the big twist that Steven Moffat’s been smirking & boasting about for 5 years…

[topperofgallifrey @topperofgallifrey]

Who thinks the Doctor’s battle with Mr Clever a.k.a The Cyberplanner is funny?

[Anonymous @]

It appears that this thread has long since departed from discussing what people thought about the episode, but I just wanted to put my 2 cents in.

 Until this episode I have never had a single complaint (legitimate complaint that wasn’t simply matter of taste – of which, I’m aware I have very little) about a Doctor Who episode. I even enjoyed this one very much for the first few times of watching it.  The Cybermen were transformed into a truly unstoppable force now, unlike when four Daleks could wipe them out, talking smack like, “You are better at dieing”.  🙂   I found the Cybermites even more frightening and they even induced brief flashbacks to “The Wrath of Kahn” which still makes me clinch my eyes and squirm in my seat. And to me it was one of Matt Smith’s greatest performances. So it is hard for me to say that this is my least favorite episode.   It broke one very important rule for me, essentially a deal breaker in my book.  None of the characters behave the way they should, with no explanation offered.

1. The children discover Clara has been traveling in time. Ok, no problem so far. We have to assume they threaten to reveal her secret unless she brings them along. Ok also. But it is not Ok to skip the Doctors reaction to this idea. Did they blackmail the Doctor too? What would the Doctor’s usual response be to this? We have seen him resist bringing uninvited companions along in the past (Rory, Rory’s Dad, and Micky). Maybe he had other reasons we don’t know about for letting them come, but we never get to see his reaction at all. I have a hard time accepting his response would have been, “Of course, come along. Glad to have you aboard”, but maybe he did. I just need some explanation to the sudden change in behavior in that case.
2. The children seem to be completely unimpressed by the TARDIS. Once again I have a hard time accepting this.  They are technologically advance and smart enough to discover Clara’s secret, but that’s not reason enough for me. I don’t care how cutting edge you are…IT”S THE FRIGGING TARDIS. BE IMPRESSED. That is usually the Doctor’s response as well. Rory wasn’t impressed, but was clearly interested in it enough to study the technology behind it, and the Doctor’s reaction, to Rory’s unusual response, was not a pleasant one. But the children’s disinterest goes unadressed by the Doctor and his reaction is completely skipped.  
3. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the AG Doctors regretted the decision they made in the Time War?  That destroying entire planets for the greater good was an incorrect one, or at least one deserving the utmost consideration before hand. But the Doctor seems to never give a second thought to doing it again in this episode.

For these reasons I must agree with @juniperfish and hope that it was all just a dream (Nightmare in Silver would still be an appropriate title). I also agree with @bluesqueakpip about hating dream solutions, it is such a cop out. But in this case it would be better than the alternative.  When I watch this episode now I can only ask, “Where is the Doctor I know?”

 I could be mistaken that no explantions are offered, since it is possible, some TV executive might have cutout what they thought to be unimportant to the story and therefore I missed the parts I described above.  I watch Doctor Who on American television. Where, for those who may not know, episodes are edited for time in order to fit the format (God forbid they cut any commercial time instead).  😈  They edited Eleven’s kitchen seen with Amy!!! 👿 What else might they think unimportant?

[Anonymous @]

@barnable

I thought it was an enjoyable episode but, like you, have some concerns about the kids blackmail attempt.

So, Clara refuses to take them with her and they then go to their dad and show him the photos of Clara in other time zones. Clara’s excuse? “Oh, me and some mates were just messing around with Photoshop”. Blackmail attempt foiled. Besides, it’s more likely that dad would give them a clip round the ear for telling lies. After all, he’d probably think that time travel’s impossible (but we know differently 😉 ).

Re point 3. It’s been a while since I saw the episode but I’m pretty sure The Doctor did say that under no circumstances was anyone to blow the planet up. It’s possible this was edited out for time.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@barnable – agree with @fatmaninabox that the Doctor was very, very firm about no blowing up of planets until everyone left alive and unconverted was in the one room.

Given that he knows the Empire’s policy with regard to blowing-up-of-planets, he may well have known that the Emperor setting off the bomb triggered an automatic rescue.

If he didn’t, it’s still compatible with his behaviour in The Day of The Doctor. He’s willing to set off the bomb to save the rest of the universe from Cybermen – but he doesn’t want to survive it. Especially since there are two kids in the group.

I’ve heard that when Gaiman was plotting out the episode, ‘the’ Clara was going to be the Victorian version and the kids would’ve been on more TARDIS journeys. Personally, I like to think of the whole ‘blackmail’ plot as an intervention by the Great Intelligence. He feeds the photos to the kids so that the Doctor takes them on a joyride and gets them killed.

[Anonymous @]

@bluesqueakpip

Personally, I like to think of the whole ‘blackmail’ plot as an intervention by the Great Intelligence. He feeds the photos to the kids so that the Doctor takes them on a joyride and gets them killed.

Oh, if only that had happened. Kids just don’t belong in sci-fi. As proof, allow me to present my evidence – Star Trek:TNG’s ‘Wesley Crusher’ and, all the way from the Delta Quadrant, ‘The Borg Children’ and ‘Naomi Wildman’ 🙂

Caitlin Blackwood (Little Amy) is, of course, the exception to the rule.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@fatmaninabox – your evidence only proves that Star Trek can’t handle kids. As you say; Caitlin Blackwood. Indeed, Doctor Who has innumerable small children getting involved in the action.

Then there’s the famous Children of The Stones, Sarah Jane Adventures, The Tomorrow People. Going back to the 1950’s, there was the ‘Kemlo’ series. Scientifically rubbish, but enormous fun. There’s also Robert Heinlein’s series of juvenile novels. 🙂

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

Well it would seem that Clara’s charges have successfully leaned on her, and she has persuaded the Doctor, to take them on a trip. I have to say I like the Maitland kids. They’re intelligent (unlike the obnoxious Courtney of Kill the Moon). And even though the funfair/planet is near derelict, and surely a massive disappointment, they’re open to having their interest aroused.

Warwick Davis (as Porridge / the Emperor) is a delightfully engaging character.

At one point the scariest thing is the Doctor – “Don’t wander off!” but he won’t say why. And Angie does get a little grumpy and annoying at this point.

Clara seems to take being in command quite capably. Helped by the fact that Porridge seems to accept her authority and he seems to be some sort of senior figure (we only know he’s Emperor on a re-watch).

And the argument between the Doctor and Cyberdoc inside his head – that’s good drama.

I have to say I’m aways a little discouraged when we see legions of Cybermen converging on the small platoon of troops. Especially when they can instantly upgrade to neutralise any weapon used against them.

The Doctor getting Cyberdoc to tie up the Cyber-army calculating a chess problem was sheer genius.

Angie deducing that Porridge was the Emperor was smart. And the last-minute rescue signal / implosion bomb seemed a bit convenient on first viewing, but I think it holds up. It’s the Emperor activating it, it would justify sending an Imperial cruiser to the rescue.

I like this much better on a re-watch. This wan’t just another Cybermen story. Neil Gaiman’s sense of whimsy shows through in his characters, and they are, for me, the main interest in this episode.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@dentarthurdent I agree that this episode stands up well on re-watching. It has a lot of qualities, such as the characters, the children and Porridge/Emperor. Angie is acting just as a kid would in the circumstances and I like the setting. I also like the sense of world building in this story. We mostly only see Cybermen and Daleks in relation to the Doctor or Earth. It is interesting to see their impact on other parts of the universe. It puts them in perspective, reminding us of just who dangerous they are. Out in these regions they have conquered, and this is the result of not having the Doctor constantly popping in to save the day.

Cheers

Janette

 

 

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@janetteb Yes, it’s a very good ep, I think it only suffers (slightly) in my recollection if compared with Neil Gaiman’s other episode The Doctor’s Wife. Which is hardly a fair comparison, Doctor’s Wife was exceptional.

Incidentally, the Cybermen all freezing up trying to compute an impossible chess problem, reminds me of a passage from Doug Adams’ Hitchhikers Guide – when the ‘Heart of Gold’s computer Eddie went AWOL trying to make the perfect cup of tea at Arthur Dent’s insistence while Magrathean missiles were homing on them.

Current equivalent – “Please wait while Windows upgrades your system” 🙂

[Author]

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