S33 (7) 13 – Nightmare in Silver
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Dentarthurdent 2 years, 11 months ago.
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15 May 2013 at 17:09 #9223
Anonymous @
@satsumajoe – “and those memories the memory-chowing planet gobbled up”
Now, this is why I require other people’s interpretations of the show to feed my theorising needs (because I am so bad at it). I know that Grandfather ate up Clara’s leaf, leaving her leaf-less; but for some reason right up until I read your comment, it didn’t occur to me that Grandfather ate up the Doctor’s memories — leaving him memory-less. I guess I thought a physical object was different to brain waves, but you’re right (and I’m looking a total fool to everyone now); if the Doctor offered up his memories to be chowed down on, then those memories are as gone as Clara’s leaf.
Arrrgh! I have to re-read all the RoA comments again! And re-visit all the theories about Clara being a repository of memories which the Doctor has now lost. Although I will repeat something I said earlier: if David Tennant is coming back as 10.2 (or is it 10.5? 10.1? anyway, the human-TimeLord metacrisis in the parallel universe) then he has all the necessary memories.
15 May 2013 at 17:17 #9224For my part, Tennant’s final line was shattering – mostly because it summed up that he knew he had gone off the rails and that because he had he had to pay the ultimate price; but, at the same time, it was the Pixie Professor, as I liked to think of him, being told he could not play anymore.
I thought it perfectly summed up the dichotomy which represented his journey as the Doctor. I never thought of it as reluctance though.
And while I hated the long regeneration farewell scene, I can understand why Tennant’s Dr, in RTD’s eyes, needed it – his life was flashing before his eyes as he faced the final moment pre-regeneration.
Hartnell simply collapsed, his body having “worn thin” possibly from the loss of energy to Mondas, possibly for other end-of-incarnation reasons; Troughton was regenerated by the Time Lords as a punishment; Pertwee committed suicide because he knew his interference had caused a problem and he had to fix it and to fix it would kill him; Tom Baker gave up, tired and replete, ready for change and “the moment (having) been prepared for”; Davison also committed suicide, to save his companion and unsure whether he had gone so far as to be able to regenerate (so, easily the most heroic death); Colin Baker we never saw regenerate so who knows, but possibly he disappeared up his own bottom to start the process; McCoy was murdered so his end was involuntary and his “accident” which seemed fairly fatal turned out not to be ( a reference to Troughton’s assertion that Time Lords “live forever barring accidents” ); McGann – nobody knows; either before, during or after the Time War he became Ecclestone (apparently); Ecclestone committed suicide to save Rose; Tennant committed suicide to save Wilf.
15 May 2013 at 17:22 #9225@satsumajoe I don’t think we know exactly what happened but it looked to me that the Doctor said “take me”, gobble me up – but clara stepped in with the leaf and saved the Doctor.
That said, it did look like there was regernation energy flowing….so we may yet revisit that scene. But, on balance, I think it is just that Clara saved the Doctor from making the sacrifice.
And we do not know in what capacity Tennant is returning in the 50th – but I suspect that he will be his Doctor with Rose out of their timestream, rather than the “other” Doctor married to Rose in alternative world happiness….but we will see.
15 May 2013 at 17:40 #9228@Shazzbot (and I’m looking a total fool to everyone now)
Nah. Have you seen my theories? Everyone’s a fish. It’s not easy!
Back to the other stuff. Perhaps one thing to note from that line of thought – the infinite potential of that leaf, all those possibilities that could have been (and so have yet to be), in consideration of the same quality the Cyber-planner (or Cyberiad unless there’s a distinction) sees in children but sees even more in the Doctor. Still thinking on what that could mean.
Hmm, there is a bit of a focus on children as pivotal figures. OK, maybe two things to note.
@htpbdet That’s very true. I’ll have to rewatch TRoA now! I don’t mind the singing.
15 May 2013 at 17:43 #9229@htpbdet – “he knew he had gone off the rails and that because he had he had to pay the ultimate price”
This is where I have to say, I just don’t get it. ‘Ultimate price’? Maybe I’m over-thinking the whole regeneration thing, and maybe I just don’t understand what sentimental attachment the Doctor has to any one persona. And I’m certainly putting my own feelings into the mix — having an entirely new body / personality? Fan-tastic! If I’ve effed up horribly (as I have; as hopefully other people feel they might have done in their own lives), then having a brand spanking new start is a blessing, not a curse.
Thank you, btw, for that quick flip-through of regenerations (your feelings on Colin Baker are not just represented by his absence in your moniker!).
“the “other” Doctor married to Rose in alternative world happiness”
Aww, who says they’re married? 😉
15 May 2013 at 17:54 #9230@Shazzbot I think it depends on each “character” of the Doctor. Tennant was not ready to regenerate but he had to because he had to take responsibility. Ecclestone went cheerfully enough, so did Davison for that matter, but each in their own way, reflects their own individual idiosyncracies.
TimeLords may not see a new start as a blessing…
🙂
15 May 2013 at 18:05 #9239I’d love to know how far in advance Tennant was booked for the 50th.
LOL – he was still denying he’d even been asked (and everything else) on Jonathon Ross in Jan(?). Actors, eh!
Interesting thought re Moff giving RTD notes for the regen episode – we know he wrote the last scene, when Matt takes over, so it’s certainly not inconceivable that he’d have more input if he’s plannning to link us all back to there.
@htpbdet Nice rundown on the regens, if just a teensy bit partial in some cases, as I’m sure you won’t mind me saying! Certainly none of them, even Hartnell, has regenerated totally voluntarily. It’s a fact of TL life, it’s not dying completely as he retains full memories of previous incarnations, but effectively it’s the death of that face, body and personality.
BTW I thought that the grandfather (RoA (please keep up!!)) sucked up the Dr’s memories but was still hungry – hence the leaf. There’s LOTS of discussion about it on the thread 🙂
<has little sniffle in corner remembering T’s last scene ;-( >
15 May 2013 at 19:44 #9252Curious now… @htpbdet Has the Cyberiad been mentioned before in the series? Wondering from seeing “The duo are best friends and rivals. When they are not busy constructing revolutionary mechanisms at home, they travel the universe, aiding those in need” as part of a synopsis for a book by that name. Those possible little nods again.
15 May 2013 at 20:37 #9262I have a different (maybe more naive) view of RoA. He said “take it, take it all, baby” (if I remember correctly)
He shares them with the grandfather but must remain them. Otherwise Clara eg. might not be the impossible girl to him anymore (he would have forgotten). Remembering all those horrible things he has seen must have been a clearing experience. All those things he had on his shoulders with no one to share and finally being able to let go of them. He even cried. Maybe he made some peace with his past. That was my take on the episode and I was one of the few who really liked it (Had not found you guys yet. Most of you are not so fond of RoA, right?) But memories are limited. possibilities are not. There are bezilionmilions.
@htpbdet That was no regeneration energy but grandfather reaching out. I am absolutely certain.Also – saving someone from dying is no suicide. He changed form, but he did not die. He was alturistic.
15 May 2013 at 21:51 #9272What do you guys think about the change of the Doctor in the movie posters? He does not look so much like himself in TNOTD especially in comparison to CW.
15 May 2013 at 22:35 #9278@htpbdet – OK, so what you have anthologised in the Doctors’ various regenerations is:
2 = bodily collapse, or emotional collapse (‘gave up, ready to move on’)
1 = Time Lord punishment
4 = suicide, for mostly good causes
1 = murder
2 = not filmed2 + 1 + 4 + 1 + 2 = 10 regenerations
So if we’re theorising about 11’s departure – which I sincerely hope we aren’t – the odds are that it will be suicide for a good cause, when he will become the 12th.
Putting the show into wider societal context, it seems that protagonists do quite well nowadays when dying for a good cause. Not being filmed (or indeed referred to) isn’t an option; murder doesn’t fit the ‘family-friendly’ re-boot brief; however, emotional/physical collapse is surging ahead in the polls due to the ‘Dark Doctor’ theories.
However, 11 has had a ‘regeneration’ of sorts already, in that he’s gone to ground, been presumed dead, and got himself erased from the Dalek pathweb — so perhaps this is what those extra timey-wimey graphics in the mind scene in NiS are meant to represent. Not anything about the change from 10 –> 11, but the fact that 11 has ‘died’ once already.
15 May 2013 at 23:05 #9280I think @scaryb is right – some of my characterisations may be my own take. Tom Baker seemed to me to give up, to let go of the Telescope and therefore commit suicide by falling to his death. But it did not seem to me the same as the four “heroic” suicides and, in a way, I think it entirely suited where Baker was when he went.
However, whether Smith goes sooner or later, I would not discount him being murdered – its possible. And it would be dramatic and, in a way poetic, given the timeline he was avoiding in Impossible Astronaut to Wedding of River Song.
And it would be a first for Post-Rose/Time War ( see what I did there? :-)) which could be exciting – especially as it would be a first for a newly regenerated Doctor to solve his own murder.
And we don’t get that many firsts in Doctor Who….
15 May 2013 at 23:07 #9281@shazzbot Sorry, forgot.
i think the regeneration image of 10 becoming 11 was just to emphasise the process to the Cyberiad.
15 May 2013 at 23:15 #9282@timeloop. Suicide can be altruistic. I think all of the Doctors who died that way were altruistic….the exception for me is Tom Baker, because he seemed to me to justo give up – he had had enough.
I did not hate Rings but found that section, about the Doctor’s memories, odd. I see your take and it’s neat. Except that the Doctor is not noticeably unburdened afterwards and he does not lose his memory.
@satsumajoe. Cyberiad has not been mentioned on TV before. Which book are you referencing? I don’t know it.
15 May 2013 at 23:23 #9283Oooh, @htpbdet – I was fishing for a completely different 11 –> 12 regeneration concept, even though I didn’t explicitly say so; and you batted it out of the park (as American baseball fans would say) !
Yes, a murder which the subsequent Doctor has to solve is certainly new in the canon. And it fits with my own personal concept of the Doctor as The Eternal Detective. But does it re-start – some might say ‘regenerate’ [ ! ] – the programme in the way Moffat has been implying?
I’m wondering how ‘refreshed’ the on-going story will be. Gone are the Daleks? Away with the Cybermen? No more Master? Silence and Weeping Angels forgotten? Or simply, a female Doctor as the ultimate game-changer TM? How much baggage will the new series of DW carry from its long and glorious history – or do you think the 50th anniversary special is designed to put all of that baggage onto the Carousel Of History, and start completely afresh, with brand-new baddies?
That last paragraph isn’t directed solely at @htpbdet; I’m really interested to know what other people think and theorise – or indeed, hope or despair! – about the post 50th DW.
15 May 2013 at 23:53 #9286Suicide can be altruistic. I think all of the Doctors who died that way were altruistic….the exception for me is Tom Baker, because he seemed to me to justo give up – he had had enough
A bit mischievous of you that one.
You can read it that way if you wish, but it was still altruistic and heroic. To prevent the Master controlling the fate of the Universe he clambers along the outside of a radar dish to disconnect a power cable. The Master starts to rotate the dish to dislodge him. He successfully disconnects the cable and dangles from it, with little hope of recovery, before plunging to his fate.
The regeneration is unusual in that he has clearly been told his current existence is going to end by The Watcher earlier in the story….who merges with him to become the fifth. A predestined event, and so “prepared for”.
I think your letting your bias (your self-expressed desire for another regeneration) get the better of you on this one. 😀
15 May 2013 at 23:54 #9287@Shazzbot — RE. the 50th. I don’t think any elements of Who lore will be irrevocably gone. The Daleks, Cybermen etc will be able to return. They just won’t know who the Doctor is anymore, that’s all. And possibly the Doctor won’t know that much about who they are either. The Master has to be the exception to the rule as his shared history with the Doctor is a key part of the character.
I think the show will essentially be ‘reset’ down to the core concept but without the burden of 50 years of backstory/continuity pulling it back.
16 May 2013 at 00:02 #9290@phaseshift. Guilty as charged. Kind of anyway. Yes, I wanted him to go. But I wanted him to have a better deal than he got.
Hated the Watcher concept. And I hated how they killed him.
So I have always thought of it as heroic. – but giving up to whatever the Watcher had told him. Because by then his incarnation had had enough – I mean, seriously , five stories with Adric and anyone would want to regenerate…
🙂
@Shazzbot. I am with @jimthefish in part.
I don’t care what Moffat says – the “greatest secret” ain’t gonna be that great. It may just be that all his life he has been saved by a girl…
I am not even so sure anymore that his memories will be gone.
16 May 2013 at 00:06 #929216 May 2013 at 00:07 #9293Many thanks for the response on my post – I’ve quickly skimmed it and your own “stories” one, but I’m going to have to respond tomorrow evening. I have to get up at absurd-o-clock unfortunately 🙁
Only three more sleeps though!
16 May 2013 at 00:09 #9294Three more sleeps and then months to come =/
16 May 2013 at 00:17 #9296@timeloop Come on, Moffat has told us Doctor Who is going to be everywhere in the run up to the 50th. Don’t you believe him? 😀
P.S. You may have missed Phaseshift’s guide to using the site, but if you want proper smilies, here’s a good reference point:
16 May 2013 at 01:13 #9306@craig It seems nobody does 😉 Nah, I found that guide the other day. I just prefer mine (do you guys get the meaning of them eg. =3 ?) It is just more complex. >_<” o(((>_<)))o *.* Ö_Ö T_T u_u n_n ~.* ^^~ O.ô >_> =3 ^^/)) -.-+ -.-# ._. -_- >_>” Y_Y ò.ó ó.ò :* ='( =/ =( =) =D […]
/)/)
=( ‘ . ‘ )=
,,,,(,,,’,,,,),,,,,,
16 May 2013 at 01:26 #930716 May 2013 at 03:32 #9308Regarding Tennant’s regen: RTD was trying to get away from the notion of “oh, I’m hurt / poisoned / shot, now I’m regenerating, now I’m Ok”. He didn’t want a regen to be akin to healing a broken arm – it has to be (almost) like losing a life.
16 May 2013 at 08:41 #9312@whohar Agreed. Time Lords don’t regenerate till they are in a situation in which, if they couldn’t regenerate, they would die. It’s a more fundamental process than just changing shape. Hence T’s reluctance to go.
16 May 2013 at 08:50 #9314@whohar– while I found ten’s farewells tedious in places enough to cushion the blow of his leaving, I did also find it an interesting aspect of Who. It bought home, I thought, the fact that although he regenerates, with all the memories of the incarnations before him, it is still death, because the personality changes, and that particular person is no more. In fact, in one of the flesh episodes, when the real doctor (who people think is the ganger at the time) loses it over the flesh crying out, eleven does say something about ‘dying over and over again and all you can ask is why’ and I wondered if this affected him partly because he has the memories of all these different ‘doctors’, including their death.
I felt that ten’s struggle at the end of his time was because he, personally, the person he was, was going away. His body (in a different shape) his history, his memories, his mission and even his penchant for human beings might remain. But for his particular consciousness, it does feel like death. (reminded me a little of Tibetan Buddhism. ‘reincarnated Lamas are thought to have the memories of previous incarnations, recognising old toys etc, but are not expected to have the same personality. (One of the previous Dali Lama’s wrote poetry about women and wine. In brief: he was a fan).
So while, as I said, I felt ten’s farewell got rather tedious, I do think the concept of it was interesting. And it also underlined how the incarnations of the doctor, in nu-who at least, turn up all fresh and funny and enthusiastic, (we didn’t see nine at this stage) but when they leave- when ten did at least, and eleven is showing wear- they seem slightly broken. And maybe new personalities are necessary to cope with living so long-
16 May 2013 at 09:34 #9315@miapatrick Beautifully put. I especially liked
he has the memories of all these different ‘doctors’, including their death… maybe new personalities are necessary to cope with living so long
I wonder if previous Doctors “live inside his head” like Troughton says of his dead relatives…
16 May 2013 at 10:22 #9316@scaryb– thank you!
I feel Matt Smith’s always played Eleven as though he is, frequently, having conversations in his head. I even wonder if that is one reason he was so happy to see Ganger Eleven- he appreciated the back-up.
I can see this as a reason for a finite number of regenerations, aside from physical limitations- it gets increasingly crowded in there. So even if the regeneration limit can be addressed- is there a physiological limit?
I don’t think they’d be in there in their entirety, like the uploaded consciousness’s in TBOSJ. But memory has been such an important theme in Moffit, along with duplicates, and the question of what makes them ‘real’. He could do something really interesting with this, maybe for the anniversary special.
(Thinking of the meta-theories as well. To what extent are memories of previous doctors, in the minds of fans, interfering with their reactions to nu-who? For all the people able to say ‘well, x is my doctor, but I enjoy y’, or ‘y isn’t really my cup of tea, but nor was x, I liked z’ and keep an open mind, there seem to be many (guardian thread) who can’t see past their memories of older who, and seem to watch nu-who only to carp on about how bad they find it in comparison. Which would be fine if they wouldn’t, sometimes, be so mean spirited and abusive about it. As a show, DW regenerates both with different doctors, and different show-runners. Obviously, as it gets older, it’s legacy gets longer and more complex.
16 May 2013 at 10:38 #9317@scaryb – I think they’d sleep; otherwise it’d be like having ten backseat drivers.
“I wouldn’t have done it that way – I’d have offered him a jelly baby.”
“Do you really need that sonic screwdriver so much?”
“For heavens sake, Doctor, reverse the polarity!”
“I’m going to cry…”
[Further suggestions for ‘backseat Doctoring’ gratefully accepted] 😀
16 May 2013 at 10:44 #9318maybe new personalities are necessary to cope with living so long
This is nice and makes perfect sense. Imagine all that dying-and-being reborn without some kind of memory wipe. It would make the Doc harder and more bitter as he got older.
Apparently Tennant recorded 4 versions of his ” I don’t want to go”, with version 1 being pretty hard-faced / stoic and version 4 being melodramatically emotional. They used version 3 in the show. I thought it was about right.
16 May 2013 at 10:52 #9319LOL @bluesqueakpip
I meant more like ghosts or as memories – a bit like dead family, but a bit more intimate since he will presumably remember being them. Remembered just occasionally, when he wants to. Or has a metacrisis. Otherwise crowded isn’t the word!
Further suggestions for ‘backseat Doctoring’ – “Come along m’boy, come along!”
@whohar – I heard that about the other versions – would like to see them, just for interest. Are they on any of the DVDs do you know? Ha! I’d forgive Tennant’s Dr anything! (but a bit of judicious editing wouldn’t have gone amiss 🙂 )
16 May 2013 at 10:54 #9320@miapatrick – I think that’s definitely been the case for S7; Matt Smith has been playing it as though Eleven is having increasing difficulty holding himself together as a coherent personality. The original Time Lord limit was twelve lives; and there was some suggestion (New Adventures?) that this was because twelve formed a natural limit.
It would certainly explain why older Time Lords had a noticeable tendency to go completely nuts.
But if that’s the case, he really does have to ‘die’ this time. I’m currently leaning towards a scenario where his past, his memories are wiped – and while he does have some knowledge of what he was, they’re not his (or her) memories. They’re a story he’s (she’s) been told.
As if ‘The Doctor’ was a character on television. 🙂
16 May 2013 at 11:19 #9323@bluesqueakpip My first reaction to this –
But if that’s the case, he really does have to ‘die’ this time. I’m currently leaning towards a scenario where his past, his memories are wiped – and while he does have some knowledge of what he was, they’re not his (or her) memories. They’re a story he’s (she’s) been told.
was – Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
🙂
My second was – that’s interesting. You mean “die” metaphorically? So that there would be some continuation of the person ie we would see the connection to the previous 10/11? Could still be Matt? So Series 8 and on would see him essentially starting afresh? Maybe meeting daleks, cybermen (who would possibly know more about him than he does himself) etc like it’s the first time? Hmmm.
Is the logical conclusion of erasing yourself from databases that you eventually erase yourself in fact? You just get sort of thinner till you fade away completely. With only Clara as (or the key to) all his memories/the stories.
So all the old canon did happen but it just isn’t remembered by anyone any more? Has it been retconned out? I can see the fanbase have some problems with that 😉 Or would there still be a Dr-shaped hole (just in case it doesn’t go down at all well!!)?
Alternative (completely unconnected) theory time (it’s that stage of the week) – The Dr is actually an insane dalek having a (very long) dream of being a Time Lord?! Probably being played out on a video monitor, transmitted through the wires attached to its brain (Shame to wake it up really)
16 May 2013 at 11:22 #9324Can we discuss the prequel on here or should I move to news?
16 May 2013 at 11:33 #9326@bluesqueakpip– yes, I’m with you on that one. Incidentally, all the more reason to have a copy of a ‘history of the timewar’ on the tardis. The tardis being the tardis, that could be acquired at any point in the doctors timeline, surely? and still be found by Clara when it was. In fact, the encyclopaedia as well, and the memories played by the tardis in JTTCOTT. The tardis would still remember and be able to guide him/(her?).
16 May 2013 at 11:37 #9327Could be metaphorically, if they could figure out how to explain it coherently to the smaller members of the audience. Or it could be ‘regenerate as a baby’.
In which case, I’d lay bets that Moffat has avoided the CBBC series ‘Young Doctor Who’ by already showing us the Doctor growing up 😀
Yes, I think erasing himself from the database is going to prove to be a very big mistake. In the Whoniverse a ‘soul’ is your memories and the stories about you. Because in the meta, that is precisely what the Doctor’s ‘soul’ is; the soul of Doctor Who is both the memories of the audience and the stories told about the Doctor.
So in erasing himself from the database he is, quite literally, losing part of his soul. Though given Moffat knows Buffy, I wouldn’t be surprised if the ‘space around the object’ – the Doctor who can be reconstructed by the gaps left in the data – also becomes very important.
Prequel should probably be discussed in ‘news’, just so that people who don’t want to see it know where to avoid. I’m not going anywhere near the ‘Spoilers’ forum. 🙂
16 May 2013 at 11:45 #9329@scaryb– last night I dreamt I was a dalek. Now I don’t know if I am a dalek dreaming I am a timelord.
nooooo is sort of my reaction too. Thinking of River- ‘not those memories, don’t you dare.’ I know River died in SITL mostly to protect her own memories of who the doctor was going to be, but it would be heart-breaking if she was left alone with them.
But I can see it happening. I tend to think with Moffit as well we’re more likely to see a weaving together of themes and patterns, rather than having every separate plot tied up.
16 May 2013 at 11:58 #9330@bluesqueakpip He can’t die in fact – there has to be seen to be a continuation in some way of his atoms or “essential Whoness” or there would be uproar! And I do tend to agree with @miapatrick re the value of memories in Who. It’s intriguing tho – off to ponder a bit more (ie do some work!)
<River alone in the library with no Dr in the universe *sniffs*>
Backseat Doctors contd – “Oh my giddy aunt, whatever do you think you’re doing?!”
16 May 2013 at 12:08 #9333Evil b*gg*r that I am, I have worked out a way that River could end up with a happy ending (and the ending of Silence in the Library is clearly supposed to be a happy ending) while simultaneously wiping the Doctor’s memories. Namely, if the Sonic that’s used to download River’s personality is also used to take a copy of the Doctor.
I’ve mentioned this particular bonkers theory before. In mitigation, m’lud, I point out:
The sonic has already been planted as ‘something that can hold a personality for download’.
River, who in every other story is paranoid about spoilers, tells Ten exactly where and when he’s going to give her that Sonic.
We’ve already seen the same sonic screwdriver go round a time loop in the Pandorica Opens.
So if there is a memory wipe, and River’s in that episode – I’d suggest Future!Doctor gives her the sonic we saw in Silence itL, telling her that she has to swap it with the one Eleven will give her. And he tells her where and when, so she can swap it before he gives it to her, so that there’s enough time for it to download Eleven’s personality/memories.
The sonic he gives her (to swap) is the one she pick-pocketed from Eleven. She’s also told where to hide it in the TARDIS.
And if the swap goes according to plan, she’s to tell his past self where and when to give her the sonic. Which will, in fact, then download both River and Eleven.
A version of Eleven is already in the Library (and is that why ‘Clara’ shares much of her name with CAL?)
16 May 2013 at 12:13 #9335@scaryb – the only way the Doctor can die in fact is if we’re in a ‘time can be changed’ scenario – and frankly, Moffat’s already done ‘the Doctor dies’. I don’t think he’s going to be so careless a writer as to repeat that.
I’m going for ‘the name of The Doctor’ as a metaphorical title. Who can lay claim to ‘The Name of The Doctor’? The person in possession of ‘The Doctor’s’ body? The person in possession of his ‘soul’?
Or the person who may become ‘The Doctor’? The Potential Doctor. Who is ‘The Doctor’ – if, and only if, Eleven regenerates.
🙂
16 May 2013 at 12:22 #9336@Scary B
I’m not sure where I heard about the 4 versions of Tennant’s regen. I’ve certainly not seen it anywhere 🙁
What about this: As you say, Doc 11 has his memory wiped in tNotD. And, he’s not in any database anymore. Also, his planet and people are gone. So, no-one in the Universe now knows about him. Except the Impossible Girl (somehow). So, the cliffhanger to the 50th will be the Doc as a hole in the universe / a metaphorical baby. The 50th special will be about how Clara helps him recover himself / grow up.
16 May 2013 at 12:23 #9337@bluesqueakpip – “the potential Doctor” – you mean like final season Buffy with potential slayers? Not sure that works for Who. The Slayer was always seen as someone completely different from her predecesors, just sharing some of the same talents and destiny. The Doctor is different in that he has always been seen to be the same continuous person (with admitted gap between 8 and 9).
@whohar – I quite like that re 50th thoughts. There are quite a few theories circulating round here re how to achieve a reboot. For that to happen there has to be some way of basically packing the past into an old trunk and putting it in the attic while the Doctor sets off on new adventures. But how to do that without saying it doesn’t exist any more.
I’m still hankering after a faulty regeneration/it was all 10’s fault hence exploding tardises – cracks in time – need for reset theory
16 May 2013 at 12:28 #9339Thinking about the question- assuming ‘Doctor Who’ is the question, we don’t really know how it is punctuated.
‘Doctor Who?’ (are you) Doctor- who?’ (i.e.: Doctor- who (are you talking about)) ‘Doctor: who …….’ (for example: Doctor: who (am I?))
@bluesqueakpip– I like it. Also- wouldn’t this mean there is a ‘clean’ copy of the Doctor already in existence? Gives a little room to play for ‘Dark Doctor’ theories…
16 May 2013 at 12:31 #9340LOL at old school fanboy reaction to River and the Dr have been living in virtual bliss in the library all this time! Works for me but maybe a bit fanfic shippy?
16 May 2013 at 12:49 #9343I just recently got out the Doctor Who book “Shada” from my local library which features A character called Chronotis. He’s a timelord who has used all 12 regenerations up and is whiling away the years as a Cambridge professor. Is that story canon, i.e. is it actually a story based on a T.V. episode?
Anyway, it made me think that the Doctor has got through his regenerations a lot quicker than most of the old-school timelords who could presumably live 1000s of years before using even 1 of their regenerations. This means that the Doctor probably doesn’t feel that old or tired overall as his life is a blink in the eye of most timelords lifespan.The story also features a special book on the ancient laws of Gallifrey which seems very similar to the book in library. When humans touch it they see old memories, which may explain why Clara says “So that’s who”.
P.S. I’m only 1/3 through the book so no spoilers please!
16 May 2013 at 13:01 #9346@thommck — Shada is definitely canon. It’s based on an actual TV story, written by Douglas Adams, upon which filming had to be abandoned due to a BBC electricians’ strike. It was ‘remade’ a few years back as an animated adventure on the Beeb’s website with Paul McGann taking over from Tom Baker but with Lalla Ward reprising her role as Romana.
I personally find it a wee bit silly and on the overrated side, largely because Adams’s name is attached to it and it seems to have attained ‘legendary’ status because it was never completed. (The clips of Tom Baker in the Five Doctors are taken from Shada.)
However, I would have thought it was a prime candidate for the current vogue of completing missing adventures with animation on DVD.
16 May 2013 at 13:03 #9347Strax reports on the upcoming episode. Don’t worry, no spoilers…
16 May 2013 at 13:22 #9350@whohar Agreed. Time Lords don’t regenerate till they are in a situation in which, if they couldn’t regenerate, they would die. It’s a more fundamental process than just changing shape. Hence T’s reluctance to go.
@scaryb (for some reason my iPad made you: Scarbyte) Yet, River’s regen in LKH was exactly that: “just changing shapes.”
16 May 2013 at 13:36 #9351@ardaraith– I don’t know. I saw some difference between ‘Mels’ and ‘River’. They shared traits, which they would, having at that point exactly the same memories, but I do think they were different ‘people’, and ‘Mels’ was no more the Doctors River Song then Ten was Alex Kingstons’ River Songs’ Doctor.
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