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Interesting that Clara has presumably not cleaned up the Dr’s deaths that led to his regenerations.  Some things still have to happen; deaths are not always when you lose, sometimes they are the right thing to do, the thing you have to embrace in order to win.

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@wolfweed

The dropping of the flambeaux in the Tomb TARDIS seems to have some future significanc

That was very spotlit, wasn’t it? I was expecting a big fire to follow – really not very H&E conscious was it?!

There were other intriguing dangly bits – Clara mentions more than once to the Dr that they have done things before. Just before stepping into the timestream she says “I’ve always done it”

And there’s the jump from the Dr and Clara being in the Tardis (thro River’s secret entrance) to the Dr confronting Simeon outside, at the front doors. Clara doesn’t seem to be with him, she’s later seen beside the Paternoster Gang.

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@jimthefish

It’s a stroke of genius when you think about it. Moffatt has now essentially neutered all the continuity bores once and for all…

@bluesqueakpip

This is Moffat’s gift to the future producers; canon is now whatever they want it to be

Exactly. It was what I was thinking about when I originally suggested about a memories (as in the previous 50 years) upload but this is much cooler solution than the Dr being an insane dalek dreaming of being a timelord. Oops. Really excited about the audacity of this.

LOL – it might have neutred all the cb arguments, but I bet it doesn’t shut them up

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@Shazzbot

And for that reason I say, the past can’t be re-written (in the sense of stories aired over the last 50 years cannot be changed retrospectively into being wins when they were originally defeats).

Agreed, but we don’t know if what we’ve seen in the series up till now is what actually happened or it’s the version that Clara “cleaned up” (with the implication that it might now not have happened exactly the way it did originally – ie any little inconsistencies in the canon backstory can now be explained as being the post Clara versions)

Agree no detail about HOW Clara managed the retconning, but then there isn’t any detail about what the GI actually did either (presumably for time and technical reasons). We are left to imagine it, but we see the effects – stars going out, Strax reverting to Sontaran nature, Jenny dying – the Wonderful Life moment. We’ve heard the jeering deep voice in the background since Eleventh Hour, heard how Kovarian etc thought the Dr was the evil monster. BUT is the Dr’s dark reputation down to the GI alone, or is it also down to the Hurt Dr?

Random thought – Was the dark Dr originally intended to be Eccleston but he wouldn’t play?

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@bluesqueakpip

Writing meta-refs

So does Moffat see himself as Clara – rewriting the show’s back story as and when required…?

🙂

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@Shazzbot

Stop trying to eliminate River, LOL <stamps foot 😉 >

Yes, this could be her character’s ending but there’s plenty of scope to bring her back,  if the writers feel the need!

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The Dr’s death – when they are discussing Trenzalore, I thought Smith says something about it being a long time in his future. But yes the question arises whether that (final) battle was GI-influenced, therefore something that was retconned by one of the Claras.

2 possibilities about previous canon –

1 – Was everything we have seen in the last 50 years the way it “originally” happened? or

2 – Was at least some of what we saw under GI influence? Or did we watch the Clara-influenced “retconned” version?

Is the GI still lurking in some dark places in the Dr’s timestream?

To paraphrase the intro to the much missed soap satire Soap –

Confused? You will be!!

I love the idea that Hurt’s Dr will turn out to have done things that “our” Dr is deeply ashamed of (to the point of trying to erase him from his memory) but that he has done them from the very best of intentions. “In the name of peace and sanity…” does sound like a reference to the Time War

 

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Thanks @wolfweed @whisht for the Judge Death ref – very apt

And thanks also for the Fury from the Deep vid – I’d forgotten about Oak and Quill.  I’d also forgotten how terrified I was of foam! (really scary story that one!)

Whispermen unlikely to make a comeback sadly, as clearly an extension of the GI. Unless Simeon comes back. Presumably some of his fractured selves could still be lurking around the Dr’s timeline…?

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@Shazzbot

the past can’t be re-written as it’s canon, but the future is going to have to be re-written

What we’ve seen in this episode is the past being completely rewritten! Twice!!

NOTHING needs to be canon any more beyond the basic fact the Hartnell stole the Type 40 (with Susan) and is followed by at least the incarnations we know and now the new one, who may be the first (zero), 8, 8.5 or a future Dr. Agree with people who are saying there was a very Eccleston vibe about Hurt, and possible Time War connection.

There is no way of knowing how long the Time War lasted – it’s a meaningless question in many ways. My understanding is that it woud involve anyone with time travel – the daleks and the time lords prinicpally – going back to different points in time and altering key events. You’d never know what was going. Chaos.

 

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@craig – seconded re @chickenelly‘s avatar award.  And thank you for choosing the bigger option for avatars on this board,  so much more scope 🙂

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@jimthefish @miapatrick @bluesqueakpip

Not been on the G Blog today. Probably been modded by now Ha! LOL’d at Miapatrick’s 4 glasses of wine comment. Ditto 🙂

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@Shazzbot @lula @jimthefish

River – this could be the end for River post SitL (and what a beautiful end!) but there’s plenty of scope to bring her back (a pre SitL version) if the writers think there’s a good opportunity to, And she’s not necessarily limited to 10, 11. She could be, but not necessarily, there’s enough scope – incl the fact that we’ve not seen her find out the Dr’s name, still heavily teasered. (LOL’d at te suggestion upstream it’s when she and the Dr register the birth of their child).

It’s also heavily suggested that this time she does just fade away, but it’s also River who says she kept the line of communication to Clara open, so she can also cut it. That bit of dialogue was also to establish to the Dr that Clara was still alive (unlike the GI who we are told would die, although also split into massive no of copies (to wreak havoc in the Dr’s timeline).

<sniffs at thought of River’s 2-300 years in the Library waiting for the Dr to come back and visit. A Dr who couldn’t bear to come back to her. Her being saved to the Library was a compromise for the Dr, the best he could do for her in the circumstances, but felt like a failure. Aaaw 😥 >

And no, sorry, I don’t buy River as a Clara – she’s too independent, and different. Also – why would Vastra be able to call both River and Clara to the conference if that was the case?

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@timeloop I’d say the door/portal is wide open for River to come back whenever. He stories are out of time anyway, and she’s just proved she can get out of the virtual library, at least sometimes. She implied in STL that “her” Dr was older (than Tennant) so she could potentially be in the Dr’s timeline for ages, so long as the writers come up with good stories for her. this was the first time we’ve seen her since SiTL tho.

“hands not flailing” Ha! No indeed. I felt we got to see more ofhte Dr than we usually do in this episode – some of the emotional stuff he usually keeps tightly locked up

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@bluesqueakpip

Oooh! yes please, looking forward to it

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@timeloop – Ah, that was brilliant!  For our shy Eleven, he looked quite chuffed with himself 🙂 (Cut to quick shot of bemused looking P-gang)

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And Clara and the Dr running through the bowels of the Tardis after coming thro River’s secret entrance – Clara says something about they’ve done this before. Followed by the quick jump to the scene outside with Simeon and his snowmen substitutes – the Dr reappears (from outside?) the Tardis

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Random thoughts –

The whole thing wouldn’t have happened if the Paternoster Gang hadn’t listened to the whispers and called the emergency conference call.

Did the Dr originally die at Trenzalore at a different time (so he really really dies at some point) or is his death at Trenzalore supposed to happen in this episode as a result of the GI? So has his death also been rewritten? (Think I need to go and think about this a bit more!)

Love how the full phrase is  “Run you clever boy and remember me”

LOVED the reference to Glasgow! Feel that my home town is finally on the map – been insulted in Dr Who along with Carlisle, hehe

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Still enjoying thinking about that episode – epic! (And trying not to thnk about Smith, Tennant AND Hurt ALL in the next one! 6 months? I’m going to implode)

@bluesqueakpip @phaseshift

You raise interesting arguments, and much as I’d love Clara to be the next Dr, I’m also quite happy that she started off ordinary. Well, relatively. Given that she engineered the leaf that brought her parents together so she could be born! But the Clara we’ve seen in 7.2 is the original (as we guessed – YAY!!). The thing that makes her unusual is her decision to step into the Dr’s timeline. then she’s all over the place, every time. I don’t think she’s a double bluff (hey! what do U know, look at my track record! 🙂  )  But now they are (presumably) out of the Dr’s corrupted timestream she can be ordinary (but enhanced LOL) again.

 

If you are still entertaining the idea that you are an exception to this rule, ask yourself one question: what is his name.

Clara knows the Doctor’s birth name. The TARDIS made sure she knows it. Why? She has no need to know it. But the TARDIS sees her as ‘an exception to this rule’.

Yes, but when Vastra originally asks the question, Clara’s reaction strongly suggests she doesn’t know it. And she’s also clearly bluffing when she suggests she’s familiar with River Song.  Her comment re not knowing River is a woman highlights to River that the Dr doesn’t talk about her as his wife (which strengthens her uncertainty about how the Dr really feels about her).

The telepathic circuits are awakening memories you shouldn’t even have.

But she has them. Hidden – but she remembers everything about Journey ttCotT. The TARDIS also made sure she saw the History of the Time War.

That’s the point isn’t it? The Tardis is leaking everywere, presumably trying to help?

 

There’s only me here. That’s the point.

Agree that’s ambiguous, but I think “except you” (ie Clara) is understood

 

 

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Wee news article by Stephen Moffat on the Graun. Made a sooky comment and invited him in! 🙂

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Heeeey! @rob Long time no see – glad you made it

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So.. elements of correct theorising going on here (taken a while to work this out!) – it’s clearly pointing to all of Matt’s run could have been us seeing what happened when his stories were under the influence of the GI – eg the voice in 11th hour, in the Tardis when River was trapped, how the Doctor’s reputation was being changed (blood soaked monster etc).

WoooHooo! Go us 😀

Right, must get over to the blog to watch the fanboys explode about the kiss (mwuhuhuhuh )

And Gallifrey…! Think I need a lie down, am too old for all this 😉

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<crunch!> (sound of jaw hitting floor in a BIG way!!!)

Lots of bits of grit in the eyes too, dammit!

John Hurt!!!!!!!!

New Doctor or new DARK Doctor?  🙂

Matt!!!

JLC – think we can safely say Clara’s come into her own this episode.

Hope everyone enjoyed that as much as I did! Off to the Graun (too much magic! not proper sci fi! how dare they play with the canon? Too noisy, love saves the day again (yawn), don’t understand it/too simple)  then back later.

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@Shazzbot @thommck

Re Clara’s Dad – I was thinking that too, but someone reminded me that he left her a concerned phone message (cos he hadn’t heard from her) in BoSJ. It’s her mum that interests me -she’s the one the odd stuff seems to happen to – the dad presenting her with  the baby (usually other way round), the leaf, the I’ll always find you… don’t know how she died either. And there are the 2 missing years in Clara’s diary – age 16 and 23 – just meta refs for the show being “killed” in 89 and 96,or something else?

Sorry to disagree with your missus Thommck (and she’s not the only one) – but I think we’ve seen lots of times when Clara feels things/reacts – after finding the bodies in CW, empathy in Hide and in NiS (“that’s horrible“). But she’s also very young, as in inexperienced; she’s very nervous not to put a foot wrong – the Dr scares her sometimes, remember (JttCotT). we’ve also seen her excited at travelling with the Dr. But she has problems with her own personal memories.  Or else yes, she’s a construct learning how to be a companion 😉

Prediction – as the final knock out blow, just as we’re all reeling from whatever last 3 minute gamechanger reveal that Moff has put in place (having gone thro an emotional episode when we (and the Dr) suddenly understand and bond with Clara), she’s taken away from the Dr and split across time and space.

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@Shazzbot Oi!!!!

(S’OK, I stole it too 😳  (much in the manner of the Dr giving his memories in RoA, we can both wear it at the same time 🙂 )

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Ok… Got my Thinking Fez on, double bow tie theory <waves @juniperfish> in place. Optimistic single Tardis in there too. (Hands in place to peek thro fingers in case it’s as scary as last week’s 🙂 )

Hoping this evening brings fruition to all our favourite theories… or an even better resolution that we never even considered. Surely we’ve got to have at least spotted the clue, even if we didn’t know what to do with it, haha.Thanks again to everyone on here for a really fun series 7. This board has turned into everything we could possibly have imagined if we’d wished really REALLY hard   And is proving to be considerably bigger on the inside than you’d think.

Thinking about @htpbdet – everything crossed for you and look forward to seeing you back here later in the week

@Antipodean members – Feeling it for all of you. I may be in same boat – may have to timeshift tonight, but we can do this!! Not spoilered till now, just a few more hours

Last thought for now – there were photos being taken in Crimson Horror… by whom?  The photos the Dr took (on his travels from the start of the earth), then developed, in Hide proved crucial to him working out about the time traveller

Last thought for now – there were photos being taken in Crimson Horror… by whom?  The photos the Dr took (on his travels from the start of the earth), then developed, in Hide proved crucial to him working out about the time traveller

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@Shazzbot – thanks for all the links – will be interesting to see if they pan out to anything – keeping off even that site for the moment though. Did spot a pic of the Whispermen though, which suggested very strongly what their origin is (intriguing rather than spoilery)

@phaseshift Also like  @whohar‘s suggestion re whiling away the time till 50th with the Caption competition, but maybe leave that till later in the week, people will be focused on the immediate aftermath for next few days. And could maybe ask @wolfweed to post some more, maybe around Thurs (assuming they don’t close the G-Blog early again <sighs, remembering the days when it used to stay open for a full week> )

@chickenelly – wooo-hoo! Look at YOU 😀 Extremely nifty, love it. And thanks to you and Phaseshift for compliments on my new avatar – girl has to make an effort, LOL – bit of plaster of paris works wonders (and photoshop airbrushing is very “in” these days, or so I’m told).

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Not a spoiler surely (not at this stage, from this source), but…

But…

…

…

@wolfweed – why’s the master got a cherub???

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@phaseshift

Re your SMW-ing (I like it v much btw – gold star 🙂 )

I’d recommend keeping it short, first part is great. Then how about –

You can entertain yourself in the time between now and the Fiftieth at The Doctor Who Forum. It contains more delights than Webley’s World of Wonders, and theories more bonkers than a bathful of fishes*

 

*copyright @miapatrick

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@craig

Our reluctant hero, haha, just like the Doctor.

Have a good night

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@jimthefish – LOL

Maybe he thinks he’s acquired a stalker! Actually it’s more likely to be because you reply. He loves to stir it and get a reaction, and he loves to get the last word. He may even think he’s being funny. I have a friend like that – love him dearly – but he can’t understand that forceful dry humour just doesn’t translate on to paper/screen, and especially if you don’t know him. He’s pissed off a few people (not on the G blog).

 

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@Shazzbot

But here we have contributors generously posting magnificently detailed and thoughtful analyses of characters, individual storylines, story arcs…

We have to – you keep asking very detailed questions, LOL

(And thanks for your own contributions – doesn’t matter how long you’ve been watching the show for)

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Setting up this forum has been a fascinating experiment, particularly when you see the rising tide of grinchiness on the G-blog (and elsewhere) esp since they introduced nesting. And especially given that none of us actually know each other; I’m guessing we’re a wide range at least of ages and experiences, not to mention fish, fowl, dogs, cats and aliens; the one common factor (after Who) is maybe a tendency to read Graun blogs.

Anyway, it’s been a wonderful haven in here this week, much appreciated, when the trolls and spoilery things are barking in the woods outside!

😎

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@craig And yes agree re tone of the forum. The biggest change has been over the last 8 weeks – when membership’s approximately quadrupled. I’d’ve thought that was the danger point, given we were only about 40 in March and a fairly tight group. But the new folk have been great.  The way it’s been set up doesn’t encourage trolling, and the general niceness would probably kill them if they stayed too long.  I’d expect the newbies joining rate to slow down again after next week, without the series and Dan’s blog, which will give it time to bed in again and new folk to find their feet.

Just wondering about Fulcanelli from last week, who I see has since left. Feeling a bit bad about that and not sure if it read as if I was over-reacting. Was trying to keep it light and I’d just said I didn’t want to hear a whisper of a breath of a hint of a spoiler (or something similar).  Then he commented on my post with ref to a (granted, non-specific) spoiler! Thanks for your support on that btw, but let me know if you think I was too nippy with him.

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Re the 50th thread – come Sunday we may all have abandoned this forum in disgust that Moff’s solution isn’t anything like as creative or fun as the stuff we’ve been dreaming up LOL 😈

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@craig

I am impressed with everyone on here

Me too. And I think it would have been the same with or without the heightened threat. It was just a case of sorting out the definitions of what everyone thinks is a spoiler and agreeing where to post.  What was it you said – “aim is to create a place for those who love spoilers and those who hate them to happily co-exist”

Yay! Go us 🙂  (thanks @everyone)

Re the stats – so no matter how many times eg I log in and post in a day, that counts as 1 unique viewer? Wow! There again you’ve done great work with the search engines, regularly in top 5 (and all the video links etc won’t do any harm either)

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@phaseshift – great minds and all that! I just came back in to post that, LOL. If there isn’t a problem re the no of threads we can have, then great. There’s over 200 posts on the 50th already. A clean sheet would be good – since we’ve scribbled and doodled all over the one that’s there 🙂 And I suspect we may have to rethink a lot of it after Sat (tomorrow!!!) anyway. But still being able to link to it from the new thread would be good, tho not visible on front page.

Also – given that the new 50th is going to have to last 5 months 🙁 is it worth having a think (after Sat) re how it could be broken up eg the way it looks at the moment it could be The Doctor, Clara, What monsters do we think will be in it, Beyond the 50th. Who knows what will crop up in tNotD

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@craig Re closing 50th thread next week – good idea I think too. Discussions seem to evolve naturally to the next episode after the first few days. And it sounds like there’s going to be LOTS to talk about after Sat 🙂  It’s been working pretty well this week I think. (Apart from the frustration of watching the Spoilers thread buzzing, LOL, but that’s my choice. And everyone has been really good about keepng even slight spoilers off the main threads. 😀 )

btw what are the traffic stats this week? (And did you have to beat off any trolls? (concerned for our Mods on portal duty))

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@ardaraith @thommck

The problem with the Silence becoming all powerful is that no-one would remember, LOL.

If he has successfully erased himself completely (the cyber planner suggested it was still an ongoing process (in fact, hold on a minute! When’s he doing that erasing? We’ve not been told it’s ongoing!! <stamps foot> )) that would fit with @bluesqueakpip‘s The Doctor Must Die theory. In a show where memories are currency, if no-one remembers you, you are effectively dead – more than that, like the effects of the crack in time, it will be like you never existed. Especially he fixes that “doctor shaped hole”.  Although the Doctor will still be physically alive.

Once all his ID nos – NI, passport, driving licence, birth cert etc are deleted from the system AND he remembers to delete all his facebook, twitter, tumblr etc accounts (and not forgetting all the tagged photos) – he’s a non-person.

I’m liking this more and more.

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Just reposting – summary of most of our collected theories about Clara – feel free to add, delete or otherwise amend

Clara could be (in no particular order) –

A key (or has the password)

A fake or a forgery

A ghost

Normal human who has meta-crisis/time fracture either by accident or as choice to save the Doctor

The Doctor (past, present or future)

The Doctor’s daughter (Susan or Jenny), or granddaughter

The Doctor’s mum, sister or any other female relative

The Rani

Omega

A Time Lord, inc the Corsair (love that one)

A reincarnation of any previous companion (anyone but Mel!!!!)

River

River’s daughter or mother

The (or a) Tardis

A construct by the Tardis

Isis

The Master

A trap

A solution

A D*M

A computer programme

A computer virus

A computer upload

Dr Who the programme/all the Doctor’s memories

A Zygon

A Dalek

God/the universe

A present to the Doctor from the universe

None of the above

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New unspoilery blog from @danmartin, with a brilliant little tease at the end. (I’ve made 1 comment (being supportive and excusing absence, LOL) but haven’t read the rest, just in case. Caught a bit of the first couple – they looked moany 🙄  )

http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2013/may/17/has-doctor-who-lost-its-way?commentpage=1

Squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee 😮

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And I’d like to propose that @miapatrick‘s phrase – bonkers as a bath full of fishes is now adopted as official replacement for mad as a box of frogs as the standard measure for ultimate bonkers-ness 🙂

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It’s fascinating that since AotD we’ve evolved many, many, MANY theories (and lost very few (never let it be said we’re not kind to our old theories!)), observed lots of clues, tropes, fishy things, ducks’ eggs machinations, possible loose ends… and I would say we’re an optimistic 1% closer to solving Clara’s mystery than we were then!

😈

So – big question for me – will we see Clara’s mum again? Will we ever find out why she felt she could so rashly promise that she’d find Clara wherever she is? (And why she didn’t find her daughter  in AotD)?

@thommck – award all the points you like – but just don’t deduct any for wrong ones or I’ll end up with -100!

 

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@htpbdet Seriously going to miss your posts in next few days. Sending lots of positive nanobots in your direction (don’t know what good they’ll do, but they were the most portable virtual things to hand 😉 ). Hope all goes well.

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<now mopping massive splutter of coffee off desk and computer screen. Thank you @bluesqueakpip >

😆

 

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Still managing to resist typing “Dr who series 7 spoilers” into google! *proud*

Did come across this in the Graun, as they try to eek out the non-story that was the Whovian/Trekkie non-fight in Norwich. Not so much the article which takes a (light hearted but predictable) look at various sci fi “tribes” – but the comments are great, and completely disprove the article that they have no sense of humout and that there is any rivalry between them!

The only grumpy voice is from a Who (Troughton) fan (or could be a Trekkie in disguise, LOL) – “Remember the days when the doctor did more than run around and shout a lot, waving that ****ing screwdriver like a light sabre?” 🙄

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/tvandradioblog/2013/may/16/sci-fi-tribes-trekkies-browncoats

 

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Just found this on the BBC Who site – really lovely interview with Warwick Davis (about last week’s) http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0192lhw

I like what he says about the cast getting to chose things like his watch from a wee pile of props. That would explain Webley’s rather strange looking timepiece

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Greetings everyone, the night shift’s been buzzing I see 🙂

No theories to add to what I’ve already posted – GI generated multiple realities – the Dr has to sort out which (if any) is real. Resolved by reveal of who/what Clara is – she speaks key  code – cue his memories uploading. Dr is revealed to be crazy dalek in asylum having dream of being a timelord. And it’s set in a hall of mirrors – there’s so much bloody mirroring going on it wouldn’t surprise me, LOL.

Clara is construct of the Tardis – the perfect companion – cos he keeps breaking or losing the others!

Alternatively it’s all 10’s fault – he didn’t regenerate properly and is still hanging around, causing a paradox (and exploding Tardis etc)

I don’t expect all the loose ends to be tied up – Moff’s got to leave some loose ends for picking up later. But I won’t be surprised if there’s a revisit to 11th hour.

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@ardaraith @miapatrick @lula

It’s also very easy to accommodate it thro @bluesqueakpip‘s theory that the regenerations get more complicated when you get into double figs, or maybe the Dr just being older and more widely time-travelled means he has more limited options. We have a very small sample to work from and they may all be atypical.

I’m with @htpbdet – “I don’t think I have ever met a continuity “error” which I couldn’t accommodate (if I was in the mood to bother with such things)”

Not sure @phaseshift‘s going to be too happy with “the phrase “a box of frogs” comes to mind” hehe 😈

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@bluesqueakpip

where the different personalities cannot be contained and their version of dementia sets in

That’s neat. Human dementia = not enough memories; TL dementia = too many memories

@ardaraith re special talents for female Timelords – more likely vestigial sexism in the scriptwriters LOL (And refusing to acknowledge the phrase  time ladies isn’t canon btw, just my own personal prejudice 😉 ) But I’ll happily go with biology 

 

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Hmmm @ardaraith

Romana also went through a few potential regens before she settled on one. Maybe it’s an extra talent that only female Timelords have?

🙂

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