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Some final thoughts for now, and apologies for dominating the board (Lots of catching up!)

I loved this episode btw, great fun and genuinely scary. Loved the IW makeover and all the film refs.  Agree with post further up (@htpbdet?) about the fact that it was a Russian sub and they had no accents, which allowed the actors to concentrate on acting. Wonder if Hungry like the Wolf was in Russian…!

The one (very minor) flaw is the sailor who acts independently to thaw out the IW. It really should have thawed out naturally over a 2-parter.  But if you’ve only got 45 mins you need to get him into the action quickly. They made it work by having him wake up angry, thinking he was under attack.

Sonic – they’ve been really teasing about the Dr losing the sonic recently – nearly crunched under the door last week, dropped in water this week. See note above re bluffing (it’s more effective than a jammy dodger).

And I liked the spot by someone re the ET heart-light ref. Lots of great film refs this week, and agree there does seem to be at least a flavour of different Doctors in these episodes.

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End of the story –

I think all  the various appeals to Skaldak helped, and delayed his decision to push the button, just long enough to let the rescue party find him. The game-changer for him is that he is no longer the last of his kind, marooned with a bunch of apes!  And can you imagine his reception when he gets to the IW ship – this IW is a LEGEND! He disappeared, presumed dead, 5,000 years ago. It’d be akin to King Arthur or Alexander the Great turning up on earth. Nuking hte earth would seem like a small-fry thought after that. (And IW’s are honorable, not sneaky like Daleks).

Re the sonic as a weapon to blow up the sub – maybe, like a mobile phone can set off a bomb, a sonic signal could explode the sub’s weapons payload remotely. Or maybe the Doctor is BLUFFING.  The essence of MAD (Mutually Assured Distruction (it’s hard to tell the fact from fiction sometimes!) was ALL about bluff and counter-bluff. About persuading the other side that you really were bonkers enough that you just might trigger the possible end of all life on earth.

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@bluesqueakpip Re Clara as container of Dr’s memories – in terms of your meta-theory (she is the programme) then that’s the logical conclusion (as I posted in the other place). So at some point we will get to a place where the Dr is mind-wiped/regenerated /scattered and needs to be rebooted. (See my pet theory that this is what’s already happening)

I really like your idea of password-protected memories. Also an old idea of @phaseshift (I think!) that Clara’s fav phrase is actually a computer instruction  –

RUN: You Clever Boy (ie that’s the name of the programme)

REMEMBER

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Ah. it’s good to be back 🙂

Finally caught up with postings on here – lots of great ideas as usual.

Not really sold on the idea of the Professor being the/a Dr, lovely tho it is as an idea. He seems more of a Wilf type character – someone who provides a bit of emotional back-up when the Dr’s had to rush off (he frequently left/lost companions in the past). He’s also a human who quickly understands/isn’t completely freaked out by the idea of aliens and time travel… the best of us? He’s the balance for the war-hungry one (sorry forgot then name).

He’s a professor, he’s curious; he has access to foreign tech (walkman in  early 80s was very new-fangled) and foreign music. Shooting at the IW is very human reaction not a Doctory one.

His comment about it being a younger man’s game, when running about, is double edged – suggests he was maybe a bit of an action man when younger, but also the joke that the Dr is of course much older than him.

I think his character is the in-story substitute-Dr for Clara when 11 is off doing other things, but in the sense that he’ll try to protect her, listen to her worries etc. OTOH if they bring back Stephen Berkoff as the Shakri then I’ll happily concede Warner as the first Dr.

🙂

And agree with @whohar re the way they left him sitting in the open doorway, blocking our view of anything that might sneak up on him – classic! 🙂

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@juniperfish (and everyone!) – Cheers <hic> 😉

Song refs in Asylum – Carmen… and the Dr said he was on the recording that was blasting out, presumably from Clara’s psyche

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re the numbers – well remembered @phaseshift and @haveyoufedthefish

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<collapses, traumatised but triumphant, on the sofa>

Millions of thanks to @craig for sneaking me past the server guardians. And kudos to his Ming the Mighty for standing strong against the evil forces of the brute force cyber-attackers and keeping our bigger than it looks sofa safe 🙂

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@jimthefish @ardaraith Numbers on the Tardis – I seem to remember on Dan’s blog at the time that someone came up with a theory that these are the gps(?)/orienteering/map refs (something like that) for some of the Who on-location shoots. (They had it down to which numbers represented which location)

(And I agree with your verdict re BB and TPO) (Not least cos us “it’s not a continuity error, it’s a different doctor” theorists were completely vindicated, LOL))

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@phaseshift – spluttered my coffee at your depiction of Chris and his agent, 🙂

@jimthefish we were talking about possible double Tardises, and I posted link to the Van Gogh warning painting.  Further to that, just remembered there was interview with Matt, early this year, when he said something about how he couldn’t give anything away BUT there was something about paintings.

<Hmmmm, more coffee required!>

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@ardaraith @juniperfish @whisht

<Jumping up and down at the official reinstatement of *my* dalekised Doctor theory>

@phaseshift – Re Clara – you’re right re the “I don’t know why, I only know who”   Yet he doesn’t seem to have the same impulse with this Clara – he’s being very wary. he asks the Tardis who she is and the Tardis screen shows the 3 versions we’ve met so far (and if @bluesqueakpip is right there aren’t any more). (Would we say she’s about 7 when he first meets her btw (the prequel at the swings)? ie in series 7…)

And LOVE all the Egyptian refs, brilliantly worked out

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@jimthefish re 60 mins, maybe 90 mins – maybe Moff’s just found he’s got FAR too much to squeeze into 60mins 😉

Bonkers theory re innovations for 50th – they’ve discovered a way to really make the show “bigger on the inside”.  There will be a real-life Time Condenser included in the programme – option to click the red button which will take the viewer into a time-expanded Who-universe which includes hours of additional story 🙂 (Casual viewers can stick with the regulation 60 mins)

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@jimthefish Maybe it’s 3 film-length epis in November to make up for lack of series 8! (We can wish really really hard!)

Further thought on Clara as the programme (all hail to @bluesqueakpip) – in Asylum she keeps out the daleks with her willpower, but another way of looking at it is that she does it by creating stories for herself – ie much like the programme does for us, the viewers – creates a world of stories for us to dive into to avoid the real life daleks for a while. (I’m not proposing this as a plot point btw, but it adds amazing texture)

@besd1 I think you might be right about the sign on the Tardis door – it rings a bell re something I read ages ago about Tardis designs, no idea wherre though! (Welcome to the forum btw)

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If anyone’s in Milton Keynes at the end of May and looking for something cool to do(!) this might be the place.   Lots of Who special guests (time travelling a lot of them, especially if the photos are anything to go by!!). Inc a rare one by Nabil Shaban who played sneaky Sil.

@Thommick – don’t get yourself barred, LOL. (Clara as Carole Voderman is just SCARY!) (Welcome to the sofa!)

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@bluesqueakpip – Agreed re not bringing too much of the dimension of Real Life over here (Tho I suspect an MT debate with you could be fascinatingly intense!!) 🙂

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@craig

Just to let you know I’ve been having problems logging on and posting this morning. Site keeps crashing when I try to post (Error connecting to database). I’ve had it odd times before but it’s usually fine the second time of trying. Today’s been much more frequent. (All other sites I’ve been on behaving as usual, internet cconnection seems to be fine)

NB THIS ISN’T A COMPLAINT, JUST REPORTING IN CASE IT HELPS!!

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Lots more pics from Trafalgar Sq shoot here https://twitter.com/drwhofilming

Interestingly there don’t seem to be any which are definitely identifiable as Matt or JLC. And the twitter site is suspecting it’s been blindsided and that other filming is going on elsewhere, with Tennant and Billie. 🙂

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@haveyoufedthefish Matrix as the ultimate problem… Ooooh, I like 🙂 (Could tie in with lots of things, not least @juniperfish‘s hope for return of the Timelords). What could be bigger foe than their own tech turned against them, subtext of be careful of the consequences of using scientific developments before you fully understand them.

<goes off to have a caffeine-fuelled lunchtime ponder 🙂 >

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@jimthefish Well, if the inteior’s had a makeover, it makes sense they might have tweaked the outside as well. On the other hand your post put reminded me of  Van Gogh’s warning painting  in the Big Bang. Remember there was a huge debate re whether there was actually 2 tardises depicted? I think you might be on to something…

 

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Doctor Who in Trafalgar Sq today – you can also watch it on the Trafalgar Sq webcam thro the link @wolfweed provided on Spoilers thread (silver cloak strikes again). Modern technology, eh?!

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Tardis in Trafalgar Sq. contd –

CAUTION: maybe mildly spoilery, in that it’s more dramatic, with the Dr and Clara in it.

http://becks28nz.tumblr.com/post/47527176402/tardis-flying-trafalgar-square-50th-anniversary

@chickenelly – you walked past!!!!

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@chickenelly

Ooooooh, exciting spot. No worries about your camera – other people did!!

https://twitter.com/DavidHHeadley/status/321518844239835136/photo/1

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@haveyoufedthefish

Anyone for a “doctor who – it’s a bit non standard” t-shirt?

Yes please 😀

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Someone upthread did a detailed list of all the “ghost” references in last few episodes. There’s a lot. Combine that with the concept of body/mind separation in the uploading of “souls”, eating of memories (again called souls, or stories) suggests that they are pointing to that sort of a resolution.

Question then could be – is the Doctor also separated from his body?

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@janetteb @thedoctordude

I think Clara’s processing as a dalek was recognised as being incomplete due to her huge strength of will. But as @Bluequeakpip pointed out, although she has the computing skills that she acquires in BoSJ, she doesn’t recognise the Doctor (or does she?!), suggesting either a memory wipe or that she is not quite the same.

On the other hand the Tardis runs through all 3 versions when the Doctor asks “who is she”, strongly suggesting that she is 3 aspects of the same person (And I love @bluesqueakpip‘s meta-theory reasoning (3 parts to Dr Who the programme – classic, film, Nu-Who. So which is which?).  Add into that the fact that she loves kids and kids love her. Parents think she’s a  great person to look after kids).

@bobbingbird – agree, great to get lots of new faces and minds to chew over bonkers and bobbins speculations

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OK

Have recovered a bit from being completely awe-struck by recent posts – numbers, Clara theories etc. I’ve read through them and pondered, and realised there is only 1 possible conclusion.

Clara’s mum promises – and a GREAT deal is made of that scene –  to “always come and find her.”  Now clearly she’s not going to be able to do that as she’s now dead. So either the show is pushing a “don’t trust your mum” message, which seems unlikely, or… the Doctor is Clara’s mum!

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Re the sonic – while I’m not arguing that it does get a bit overused, it also saves a lot of time (episode 2 usually, in the old days) dodging daleks, cybermen and other aliens with no peripheral vision while sneaking along corridors trying to find a way in.  Only to be captured again at the end and having to spend episode 3 trying to get out of the handcuffs. A wee sonic or the odd anti-grav bike can solve that in a spectacular stroke 😉

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@jimthefish Would seem so, their bits could be filmed separately eg the way Clara’s scenes were in Asylum. Have to say (again!) that our Antipodean friends seem to be making more of the 50th than the UK!   Notice T Baker isn’t there.

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Hi fins indeed 🙂

27 – impressed

101 – ditto (I noticed it then completely forgot again). Have I also forgotten a 1984 ref in last week’s?

Clara’s mum a TL…?  Yup, liking that a lot 🙂

Hive-mind on here is buzzing 🙂

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@jimthefish – absolutely not a problem – I consider it a rite of passage 🙂 (If I could be arsed I’d go back and ask him why it’s OK for him to use that phrasing and not me, but life’s too short 🙂  )

@phaseshift – re Alexander – I did indeed, but for some reason (luck most likely) I avoided his delete beam.

Re cif in general – it’s really not a pleasant place to be – the first hour or so after the show is OK, then the trolls and vitriol come out. Dan’s threads on the old Doctors don’t seem to suffer in the same way, but the nesting means it’s not really working. Also I think people expect them to close after a while. @phaseshift pointed out that some of them even closed early, a mod said it was a mistake, but I don’t think they’ve re-opened.  The first one (Unearthly Child) is still open but hasn’t been added to for ages – it’s way down the list of blogs.  Last post is mine, moaning about the difficulties of following updates with nesting.

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And special call-out to @bluesqueakpip – Award for Awesome Research most def! Tying in 11/9/60 date to Sydney Newamn’s earlier show, that was FAST!

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@juniperfish @haveyoufedthefish Massive reboot… memory upload – Ahem!! (Refer to Dec theory post re what we have been viewing for last 50 years is Doctor’s memory upload!! (in which case, it’s probably completely wrong, as my theories tend to be 🙂  )

@juniperfish – nice post re text analysis/parallels

Couple of problems with the episode  in hindsight – Dr gives “grandfather” all his memories, including secrets and knowledge “that  knowledge that should “never be told” (or shared presumably) – was that wise?!

The planet seems to explode at the end – does that not kill off the 7 little planets that are orbiting it? (Presumably not as the Doctor goes back there). Would it not have been better (if less dramatic visually) to put it back to sleep?

@bobbingbird – great to see you back – we’ve missed you! And @htpbdet too, in surprisingly mellow mode 🙂

Footnote – I rather like the idea (not original) that “grandfather” is a meta-ref to us, the audience.

@Shazzbot (and others) nice callout re Lorna Bucket’s “name leaf”

Moff said in an interview before he took up the reins that memories are very important, that they make us who we are. Also said (more recently – @phaseshift posted the link, I quoted some of it in On the Sofa thread)  the companions are the focus, they are the people the Dr happens to. (Which is why his vision show-runner is never going to appeal to a certain section of fandom). And that we will probably never know why he left Gallifrey in the first place (I really hope he sticks to that)

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<Deep bow while doffing hat to @wolfweed (difficult for a chained-up stone angel, but no-one was looking)>

That “troll” post is absolute genius! (and agree with @phaseshift – a virtual award for post of the week is definitely in order)

Meanwhile I’ve been “modded” – my first ever! 🙂 (If anyone’s interested it was in the middle of @jimthefish‘s altercations with Jayarava.  I wrote “@Jayarava – “No. It’s an opinion. People have opinions, get over yourself.“” Which was a cut and paste (except for the name) of his post to our fishy friend a couple of posts earlier. Which hasn’t been deleted. So he can give it, but can’t take it)

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PS @lula – Good spot on the necklace – hadn’t noticed that at all.

Incidentally – anything to be made of Clara’s “Looks different” about her home when she looks out the TARDIS when they get back to earth?

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@haveyoufedthefish – My apologies, point taken (In my defence, had just got back from a scrap on the G-blog – hackles were up!)

@jimthefish – that’s a good point re order – she would have recognised him in Asylum if that came after what we’re seeng now, assuming she’s the same person.

@lula – Clara’s memory – it does happen, but not usually in one so young… And yes, good point also about the Dr being happier for Clara to “pay”. Maybe it wouldn’t be a good idea for something imbued with the Dr’s memories to be floating about the universe for anyone to pick up. But I love your ref to Amy’s glasses – which pocket does he keep those in?

Re TARDIS – I generally love steampunk, and I liked the last version, but I grew up thinking the TARDIS had a fairly compact control room and was shiny, white-ish, with clean lines. And roundels! A safe haven from the squelchy dark-side “other” outside. I love that the current one suggests deeper corridors leading off.  Anyway that’s my opinion and I DEMAND that EVERYONE else agrees with me or I’m going to throw an almighty strop and NEVER watch the programme again!!

😉

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@jimthefish Re trolls – I know, but what can you do?  Much of the critiscism is lazier than the scripting they accuse of the same thing.

Re the Dr’s ego (ref your recent blog-tussle) – if anything they really have pulled it right back down this series. Few people know the Dr when he first arrives somewhere. His big speech in this was built up to, seemed more like offering a tempting menu to the “god” rather than boasting – it wasn’t about what he’d done or achieved, it was about what he remembered. (And shows a different side to him than the potentially creepy stalker Clara might otherwise come away with).

This episode was about getting to know Clara a bit more – interesting to speculate that her later feistiness eg in Asylum, comes from her experiences with the Dr.   And about conveying the sheer heady excitement of travelling in the TARDIS, esp for the first time.

Plus as you say, this was Who doing “big sci fi/fantasy genre” with lots of nods to classics from the past.  I liked the big speech – if you’re going to copy/pay tribute to, do it from/to the best!  Most of the current target audience wouldn’t know the equivalent speech in Bladerunner.

Also like your point about the TARDIS makeover (love the new version, personally, but then I’m old school. If they ever bring back the original doors opening noise I’ll be in fangirl heaven, LOL)

@haveyoufedthefish – I like that too, re it being about Clara’s future, not her past, but I really hope she’s not going to have a tragic end!  (But please go and look up the meaning of Deus ex machina – former companions don’t fall under this heading!)

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@chickenelly

1) Clara remembered seeing the Doctor at her mother’s funeral only at the end of the episode, is he therefore retrospectively visiting her past and implanting himself in her memories?

He’s doing the TL equivalent of googling!

2) The little girl was dressed in a red hood, but instead of seeing grandmother, she was to see grandfather – who gets eaten by the big bad wolf.

Love it 🙂

 

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@bluesqueakpip – need your awesome research skills on 11/9/60. Well done on 05/3/05 connection. Another thing I picked up somewhere was a suggestion that in the Xmas special the Dr is vague on the details of his previous experience with the GI, cos these are among the episodes that were wiped. Love it!

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All the attention on Clara’s mum… where’s her Dad?

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Interesting take on religion in this.  The Doctor is evidently not a creationist but recognises that faith or belief in something is important to people. So long as it’s a benign system he isn’t going to criticise how people live their lives. Indeed, he’s happy to participate in the ceremony, as being something of a special experience.  Presumably the little girl wasn’t intended as a sacrifice originally, but was to become the new singer (the old one buggered off pretty sharpish as soon as he thought things were about to get tricky – uh oh, lullaby didn’t work, I’m outta here! Kudos to the girl for wanting to fix things) – a lot of it, inc the costuming, made me think of the Kumari tradition in Nepal (young girls selected at early age to become “living goddesses”).

Bit of a reversal on the usual – singing to your god to keep it asleep – ie they reckon they get on fine without any interference from divine beings! Presumably no one remembers the last time it awoke, but they still observe the ceremonial traditions.

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Having rewatched, it’s easy to see why the trolls and old school Whovians would have a go at this.

It’s about the joy and excitement of the first adventure for a companion, and as such it’s heavier on the fantasy than sci fi. The story is about establishing Clara’s character.  (Classical) music saves the day – never a popular one, that!  Music soothing savage beasts has long tradition though. But obv doesn’t work on trolls!

@phaseshift posted interesting link a few days ago – interview with Moffatt where he clearly states that the companion is who the story happens to and is the one on the journey. There are limits to how much the Doctor can change (barring a regeneration).  Early Who was more about the Dr and companion(s) all being observers of/visitors to the stories of the people where they landed ( a more post-colonial attitude?).

Then again, Doctor Who has always been about shaking up formula every so often. Which is why it’s lasted so long.

Adapt or die! Evolution rocks baby!

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@pufferfish – Nice call. But then Joni has a habit of being relevant! There’s also “We are stardust, Billion year old carbon, we are golden” from Woodstock… bloody hippies!! 😉

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Welcome @sheena444 and all the other escapees who have recently teleported in  from “the other place”.  Stay vigilant on the portals oh mighty mods @craig and  @phaseshift – the trolls are massing, and have been joined by orcs and all manner of grumpy, unpleasant creatures (armed with The Cribbers Guide of Film Critic Terms (the one with no explanations of how to use them!))

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Oh, and Clara afraid of being lost – foreshadowing (after the event) of  “I don’t know where I am” from last week

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@juniperfish Re Akhenaten – he was also married to Nefertiti; referred to the god of his new religion as the sun god.

@phaseshift –

@Bluequeakpip – which seems to be currently attracting enough trolls to police the whole of Ankh-Morpork

You’ve not copyrighted that have you. NOW THAT IS CUT OUT AND KEEP.

Compeletely agree. Priceless. you should post it on the blog.

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Yup, I enjoyed it too. Solid 2nd new companion episode, and visually quite stunning.

Some thoughts – nice call on Marion Ravenwood @bluesqueakpip (that ref gets my vote despite valiant anagramming from @wolfweed)

Grand-daughter/Grandfather, mum, mummy… Hmm. Someone suggested something on the other blog that got me thinking (as in @bluesqueakpip‘s Clara as programme metaphor), that the old god might be us, the TV audience, insatiably hoovering up other people’s memories, lives (ie TV progs), with Dr Who as the biggie, the only one that satisfies (with added leaf for dessert, LOL)

In the prologue, as Clara’s Dad to be is walking along the road, the tune is Ghost Town…

He mentions all the little coincidences that brought him and Ellie together; echoed in the Dr’s speech to the little girl about how the atoms in her body came together. (LOL’d at him suddenly veering off into Lewis Carroll – prob’ly thnking “oops, this is a bit of a long explanation, think Im losing her!)

The Dr looks mostly worried when he’s dipping into Clara’s life

The Dr who meets the young Clara in this story is post the one in last weeks’ episode (got the new gear on)

Clara’s mum was born on 11 Sep – memorable date for day and month, if not the year. (So if Clara is 26 now, she was 18 when her mum died, age 44)

And why didn’t the Doctor lose his memories? (or as @jimthefish suggested, maybe he has)

Is the Doctor checking up on Clara in her early life his equivalent of googling?!

Nice touch that he gives her the ring back at the end (her mother’s?). A wee callback to Rory, who didn’t quite get wiped from existence by the crack because the Dr still had his engagement ring?

In between him looking worried about Clara, there’s some lovely stuff as he shows her the universe – bright, shiny, strange, diverse, exciting. You get a sense of why he like impressionable young humans – being able to share the excitement of travelling and discovery

Don’t have a problem with him wandering off – he just expects her to be keeping up, as his attention keeps switching to other exciting stuff.

The leaf’s not the same one that was in Clara’s book last week

Red/brown bow tie

No doppelganger Doctors this week but uploading/stealing memories continuing

 

 

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<ah, that’s better! Grauniad blog getting a bit nippy sweeties now>

Why isn’t it the same leaf as last week? (Canadian maple I believe it was ID’d as) (I know, I know, all the wonders of a new planet, LOTS OF ALIENS!, a big fiery head and I can’t get past the flaming leaf!)

And thanks again to everyone on here for making it such a cosy Who-space

<gets comfy on the sofa and prepares for re-watch>

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@haveyoufedthefish Yeah, I wondered about a dalek link too. Didn’t come up with anything halfway as ingenious as your missing letter concept tho. kudos 🙂

As far as anagrams go, it’s either that or @jimthefish‘s Noddy Holder

Could indicate that Clara is in some way still connected to / part of the Dalek pathweb? And/or she’s still almost (but not quite) still a dalek.

Either that, or the Doctor is.

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@craig Re Tennant – not necessarily, he could still play both. And knowing Moffatt he’ll have had several possible story strands depending on who and what technology (eg old footage) is available.  Shame Ecclestone is pissed off.  He deserves to enjoy the credit for being a key part of the reboot.

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And yes agree, lovely tribute @IAmNotAFishIAmaFreeMan

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Coincidentally (or was it destiny?!) Dougray Scott who played older brother Lewis in the TV adaptation of the Crow Road (and went on to star in various Mission Impossibles) is featured in 1 of the upcoming episodes.  Which was filmed on location in Scotland.

<hangs head. why did I not know about this when it was happening? 🙁 >

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