73 Yards

@mudlark Dark is definitely worth a watch: the key to it all is a fabulous character based study where crossing timelines (not necessarily the most important part of the drama) creates a stunning backdrop for the story.

I’m pretty sure -& no spoilers here- one of the female characters is her own mother…. There’re a few instances of  timey whimey plot points – though not repeated exactly.

@mudlark

I like your explanation of the Ruby’s timelines very much. And, as you say, it wasn’t explained how this could be done. Perhaps we will never find out, but that only leads to more theorizing so it’s a win either way.

I’m going to stop thinking about this in any more detail though, as there is surely a paradox in there, and tbh – like @juniperfish – my head is starting to ache.

And think of the stories your multi-generational ring could tell. There’s a DW ep right there.

First of all, sorry to hear about your troubles, @devilishrobby, and glad to hear that you’re on the mend now. Get well soon.

In terms of the episode, a bit late to this party so I’ve really nothing to add the insightful comments above so will just say that this was another absolute corker — RTD’s best Who episode in my opinion. As others have said, there’s lots of echoes of previous episodes in here  — the pub scenes had the same paranoic chamber scene vibe as Midnight and the second half of the episode definitely went down a Turn Left (not to mention Years and Years vibe). But there was also an almost Moffat-era feeling to some of it as well. Once we got to the Old Ruby stuff, I was reminded a little of Last Christmas.

I’d also definitely agree there seems to be an alternate timelines theme emerging and I’ll be very interested in seeing where that goes. Could it be that it’s a consequence of the bi-generation? Put it this way, I wouldn’t be massively surprised if 14 made an appearance at the finale.

The only other thing I’d say is that the NMDs’ moaning about ratings and the imminent death of the show are way, way off (aren’t they always?) For my money, this is shaping up to be one of the best series of Nu Who, despite its truncated run. Maybe not s5 or s10 brilliant but it’s definitely up there. Certainly it’s just as strong, if not stronger than, the first series of the reboot all those years ago.

Talking of which, it’s starting to flabber my ghast that it will be nu-Who’s 20th anniversary next year. That strikes me as quite incredible and it basically makes this story the State of Decay (ish) to Rose’s Unearthly Child.

On that was – I very much liked last weeks episode but I’ve never and never thought I would watch an RTD episode after a Moffat one and prefer it so much.

re RIP and I miss you – I think you can love someone and miss them and be absolutely determined that they remain out of your life.

is it possible the dangerous prime minister remains a more manageable level of danger but not full ‘got the nuclear codes and will definitely use them’? It seemed like he was about to do more than bring the world to the brink of nuclear war till Ruby stopped him.

how the Doctor disappeared and still knew a different timeline I don’t know. As in I don’t know quite how many timelines we’re dealing with here. But after all hasn’t the Doctor been promised another one on one with Time?

this episode tapped into so many fears. Slow, persistence predator, everyone, even those you love and trust turning against you. Standing back and letting someone get hurt.

@cookgroom

Large parts of 73 yards do not bear logical analysis… part of what makes the story so scary. Of course there are issues with scary. The Hamlet test: the ghost ain’t supposed to make you titter; you are permitted to experience fridge logic, but this is my point. Reckon nobody knows…

re 10/14 (is that something to do with cb radio?)…

1. Ruby has never been introduced to him or Donna

2. We don’t actually know if Ruby’s London precedes or follows Donna Starbeast/Giggle London. Doctor Ham may not be here yet.

3. 10/14 still has his own Tardis doesn’t he? I bet Donna may have occasion to say ‘Oi long streak! Nerys says I’m looking peaky; take me somewhere with some rays. And wine.’ So, no, not sure Kate would know where he was.

4. He might be wearing a shimmer. As you do.

5. Finding 10/14 might well be Kate’s back-up plan, but then Witchy-woo spoke to her on the magic talking bone and she went off-grid to become a low carbon footprint spoon-wittler. Cos that seemed to be Mad Jack’s experience.

@blenkinsopthebrave

no crazier than any other theory.

Or did 15 recognise the woman who pointed? (Of course we don’t see anyone)

Also, 3,000 odd year old diagnosis of Ruby in Boom; if that is a subjective biological age for Ruby, why did abandoned Witchy Ruby turn up her toes in her eighties? Does she regenerate? So has she regenerated before?

Why did there have be only one Timeless Child? Is Ruby in ‘Brendan mode,’ a proto timelord, unexploited by the likes of Tecteun?

Quite honestly, if that doesn’t bear any relationship to Zchib’s narrative, I ain’t bothered.

@janetteb

Has anyone ever measured the proportion of Doctor’s companions who were female? Obviously the numbers are overwhelming. That being the case it’s actually a bit pointless to start moaning about Bechdel Who.

But Moffat did seem to have a problem here… Doctor’s wife, Doctor’s mother in law, Doctor’s guardian angel… it isn’t enough to blame this on the curse of the Cartmel plan. Liz, Sarah Jane, Leela and Ace are popular simply because they had gumption; Leela and Liz so much so that they proved too difficult to write.

Ace, as one of Fenrics’s wolves, is closest to the nuwho companions.

Rose did something she shouldn’t with Tardis and became Badwolf girl before she was hurried off into a parallel universe. Martha was anti-Rose.

Donna was a forerunner of Amy and Clara; somehow intertwined with the Dalek’s reality bomb. The universe collapses about Amy for no very good reason that I could see, and the rather tortuous result was River. Clara was supremely abstract and I don’t think we’ve yet seen the final outcome of that.

Or they were simply friends defined by their sacrifices for the Doctor and/or the Doctor’s sacrifice for them?

Bill was another fighting companion and I have wondered whether she was originally written as more significant before Moffat was cut off at the knees. Or perhaps her transformation to a cyberman became more significant. Because it is. How to define humanity? Take it away.

I say nothing about The Fam.

I really don’t think RTD is playing with us by setting up Ruby as significant. The Doctor is humane. The Loon is a loon (I struggled with Missy’s reform but then it was aborted). If the Cartmel Plan is significant it’s not because the Doctor came to be through some plot twist, but because he… became. He grew. And the Loon did not. He really is a scratched record. Perhaps Ruby’s story will illustrate this.

Hello!

In Boom, Ruby’s age is simply calculated from her birth year in the 21st century.

Loving the return to Bonkers Theories, and hello to all the other fishes, Puro and Scary B!

@ps1l0v3y0u  @janetteb

The problem with the idea that Ruby might be a Time Lord, whether the Doctor’s mother or his sister or any other relative is, as  I noted in an earlier post, that the visual projection of the Tardis analysis registered her under ‘species’ as ‘homo sapiens’ – and I did pause the recording and look carefully.  Before I checked it did cross my mind that she might be Susan’s daughter, but even if Susan was too young when she left Gallifrey to have been confirmed as a full Time Lord, not having been exposed to the Untempered Schism or whatever, she would presumably still have Time Lord DNA (or equivalent), and her hypothetical offspring would therefore not register as human.

Further to my suggestion that there was a split in the time line – and for ease of reference I will refer to the Ruby whose life we followed as Ruby I and her hypothetical alter ego as Ruby II – I realised that I may not have made it entirely clear that neither Ruby I or Ruby II is likely to have understood on their own that theirs was not the only time line, and only when they merged at death would they realise that there was a way in which the dystopian line could be nullified. So it could only have been the merged self which returned to the point of division

I had another look at the final scenes to check the details and realised that I had  blinked* and missed  something; to whit the flashed sequence of images from Ruby I’s life since the arrival of the Tardis in Wales. This is obviously a reference to the notion that people at the point of death see their life flashing before their mind’s eye, but in this case the sequence is in reverse order, a rewind indicating a physical return to the crucial event, – physical at least insofar as old Ruby I+II is sufficiently corporeal for other people to see see, speak and respond to her. It is not explained how this is possible, and presumably we were  supposed to just accept it, but since we are free to speculate, the fact that Ruby has had some experience of travel in time and space might be a factor.

I made a note of old Ruby I+II’s exact words as she watched her younger self emerging from the Tardis. ‘I’m sorry I took so long. And I tried so hard. What else could I do?  It took all these years, all these long years.’  It seems she might have thought she could intervene at an earlier stage to correct things, but that it was only possible once both versions of Ruby had lived their lives to the end.  Then, as the Doctor approaches the fairy circle, she whispers repeatedly, ‘Don’t step, don’t step’, which Ruby I obviously doesn’t hear but maybe registers subconsciously.

The simpler and relatively boring explanation is, of course, that there was only one version of Ruby, and that she alone went back to the crucial event in order to create an alternative time line. This is probably what RTD had in mind, but I don’t find it as satisfactory.

*Good thing that there were no Weeping  Angels nearby.

@mudlark is probably correct here. I had forgotten about the DNA scan but there might we ways around it, some kind of scriptwriting jiggery pokery. Ruby might be a granddaughter and possibly the Doctor already has some human DNA, given that he is not of Gallifreyan origin after all. Had the Doctor ever scanned their own DNA? (I really need to make time for a second watch. One viewing is never enough especially when that is with family members complaining about babies and music.)

Maybe Ruby is human and is a kind of gift for the Doctor knowing they will need a companion in the future. (the boring explanation) Then the big question is, “who was the mystery woman who left her at the church” and not, “who is Ruby”.

Hi @pufferfish. Nice to see you back here.

Cheers

Janette

@ps1l0v3y0u

 before Moffat was cut off at the knees

Ooh, tell me more.

@mudlark

@janetteb

@blenkinsopthebrave

@ps1l0v3y0u

On the Ruby question, I tend to agree with Mudlark on this. Otherwise, why show the scan on screen – it must be for a reason. Obviously, there is plenty of scope for jiggery-pokery with Ruby’s species from what we’ve seen in previous Who – in which case the DNA might be a red herring (although I would consider this a bit of a cheat if that’s the route they go down.)

I’m really hoping Ruby is not TL or related to the Timeless Child storyline. However, given we know very little about the TC, then there is plenty of opportunity should RTD want to double down on that.

@blenkinsopthebrave

I like this idea but, if so, it means Ruby abandoned herself. To what end?

@whohar

To what end?

To save herself.

I am not sure why I said that, but it somehow just seemed right.

@whohar

Moffat’s knees… my own little theory; a record scratched worse than anything by the Loon.

The BBC had increasing issues/were reorganised to have issues with Moffat’s sexual politics/atheism/undiverse writing buddies, but mainly his treatment of The Great War anniversary and the need to sell DW to a streaming service. Series 9 & 10 were nobbled. He had a plan to go on 2020 but was out the door by 2016.

After Zchib’s failure to make a soap based Who anymore attractive than anything commissioned by Michael Grade, and the petulant sledgehammering of The Cartmel Plan, RTD may be trying to put it back together again. Maybe not.

Interesting. To all those recalling the Scan the Doctor does I’d forgotten this.

I’m remembering how safe the companion is often not; and how promises are broken. I’m reminded of The God Complex where the Doctor says to both young and current Amy: “I knew this would happen. I can’t save you and there is nothing I can do to stop this….I’ve led you by the hand to your death. This is what ALWAYS happens. I took you with me because I wanted to be adored. I’m not a hero. I’m just a mad man in a box. It’s time we saw each other as we really are.” The loss of her faith is a stunning realisation and in a way we’ve returned to this.

It’s time to stop waiting.

Puro.

@blenkinsopthebrave  @juniperfish

I have been twisting myself into a pretzel trying to get my head around the logic of Ruby being her own mother in the manner suggested, but any way I look at the paradox it seems to end in a completely closed loop with no beginning and no end – not even Ouroboros, because the ring has no head or tail.  If there was a hypothetical entry point in time when the sequence had a beginning, then I don’t see how Ruby-the-mother at that initial point could have been her own child

But no doubt I’ve overlooked something crucial. I never did get round to studying formal logic.

@juniperfish

River’s immortal line from The Husbands of River Song, “I’m an archaeologist from the future, I dug you up”.

Yes, I remember grinning broadly at that line 😀   I would love to have had River’s sonic trowel, too, way back in my digging days. There is a lot to be said in favour of the trusty forged tang WHS 4 inch pointing trowels, (never on any account choose a trowel with a riveted tang) but they wear down remarkably quickly and I got through a good many in the course of my early career.

@mudlark

 If there was a hypothetical entry point in time when the sequence had a beginning, then I don’t see how Ruby-the-mother at that initial point could have been her own child

Although the idea has its attractions, I tend to agree about the paradox. But (there’s always a but), we are now in a realm of fantasy Who, so…magic. I will be disappointed if they go down this route as it is often narratively unsatisfying, unless there are well-defined rules.

I tend to think that @mudlark is right and Ruby cannot be her own Mum. However that does not discount the possibility that the woman who leaves baby Ruby on the church doorstep is not an older, alternative timeline Ruby who has gone back in time, rescued herself for some reason and left herself on the doorstop for the Doctor to find.

Having said that I don’t think the mystery woman is Ruby. I would not put money on it anyway, if I was of a gambolling inclination which I am not. I think Master/Missy, granddaughter Susan, Susan Twist or River Song would all be safer bets.

Cheers

Janette

Hmm, finally had a chance to watch the episode properly finally. A couple of thoughts occurred to me, firstly was the Doctor aware in some way that he or more correctly Ruby had been in some kind of time loop/paradox especially as in the first time when the Doctor stepped on the fairy ring he didn’t seem to know what it was but the second time he knew exactly what it was as soon as he saw it and stopped Ruby from disturbing the notes. Also re the witchy lady, I’m not so convinced  she/it was a future version of Ruby she had more a feel of a version of a weeping angel especially when she finally came close to Old Ruby. Also I see our friend Susan Twist was back again this must mean she has some significant meaning/role in the series’s arc plot. Right better go before the tother half tells me off for over doing things in my recovery 😉

@devilishrobby

All power to your convalescence, but I, too, advise taking things gradually 😉

I’m curious as to why you think that the witchy lady wasn’t an older version of Ruby, because that seemed to me to have been indicated fairly plainly. Granted that when the witchy lady first appeared she conveyed a very spooky vibe, but once it became clear that she was always going to maintain that distance of 73 yards, and once Ruby had come to terms with this follower and even realised how she could use her to thwart the fascistic Roger Ap Gwilliam, any resemblance to the weeping angels pretty much vanished, leaving us with a far less threatening enigma. In fact after Ruby accepted her as simply another mystery factor in her life I began to see this watcher semper distans as an almost protective presence.

Towards the end of the episode, when Ruby in old age visits the site of the now dilapidated Tardis*  with her carer, it seems she has begun to have an inkling of the meaning of this ghost-like presence which had haunted her for so long, ‘I’ve been thinking I know why. The woman.  … Why she’s here.’  Then the scene switches to the care home where, dying, she sees her constant follower at last approach and holds out her arms in welcome.

What follows seemed to me fairly explicit. We hear the sound of the monitor flatlining, followed by a rapid sequence of flashed images from Ruby’s life in reverse order, indicating a journey back in time. So far, so weeping angels, except that we end up where we began, and now we are seeing things from the witchy woman’s point of view as she sees young Ruby and the Doctor emerging from the Tardis. What she says then makes it clear that her intentions were all along benign, and crucially she ends with, ‘And look at me, I was so young’. So who could the watcher be other than an older version of Ruby, whether in the most straightforward sense or in a more complex timey-wimey way. It is presumably significant that on this second occasion she appears before the Tardis door opens, whereas the first time she appeared only after the fairy circle had been broken and young Ruby had read a couple of the scrolls.

Whether the Doctor knew more on this second time around than he did the first time is an interesting question. The dialogue is the same up to the point where he mentions Roger Ap Gwilliam, but he stops short of the reference to him leading the world to the brink of nuclear war because Ruby interrupts to stop him treading on the fairy circle.  While this is going on the old woman on the skyline is whispering ‘Don’t step, don’t step ..’, surely too softly for either the Doctor or Ruby to hear, but perhaps it registers subliminally for one or both of them. Agreed, it may be significant that the Doctor  seems to have a slightly better understanding of the fairy circle on this second occasion, but equally it could be simply because the sequence was interrupted, the ring was not broken, and his wits are less scattered in consequence.

*protected by a perception filter?

Late to say but having talked about Ruby being a changeling I thought again about the butterfly stepping episode – oh-so-throwaway as it seemed – where in that alternative life she looked much more like a fairy than anything.

It would be good to see a getaway from the young woman companions, I agree, so maybe the fact Ruby Sunday (I mean, the name!) is so very reminiscent of Rose/Amy/Clara is because she’s full on alien, even in the world of Who. That is, she isn’t just alien, she’s a supernatural/fairy tale/Disney character.

Which makes me wonder, is she even real to the Doctor, only he doesn’t know it yet?

@wolvesarerunning. Welcome. glad you decided to post and it is never too late to join the party. Nice theory. I like it.

Cheers

Janette

@cathannabel Hi and nice to see you. I agree. Witchy ruby has a almost hypnotic effect on people. I don’t think there is anything she could say that would make Ruby’s mother run from her like that.

cheers

Janette

@juniperfish

Yessssss – and therefore only “real” in the “mavity” universe, and so when the Doctor has to restore the timeline, and undo what he unleashed with the salt line at the edge of the universe, Ruby will have to vanish, like the changeling she is – back into faerieland…

Hmmm, liking it. Which suggests that nothing will be resolved until Millie G is leaving… Well, was already thinking there isn’t time to wrap up the mavity issue in only a few more episodes!

Perhaps some part of him already knows this, and that’s why he cries in every episode – his body is trying to warn him about the loss to come

Gorgeous.

Another waste of time.

Continuing the unbroken streak of terrible plots, truly pointless!