Empire of Death
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21 June 2024 at 23:30 #76474
It’s the series finalé. Sutekh is back. The Doctor has lost. His ageless enemy reigns supreme, and a shadow is falling over creation.
Nothing can stop the devastation… except, perhaps, one woman.
As with last week this is written by Russell T Davies and directed by Jamie Donoughue.
All the cast from last week are obviously back to finish off the story.
Hopefully this all ends with a bang.
22 June 2024 at 01:21 #76480After a long day, and then a long evening feeding people, I’m now commenting after 1am.
My initial thoughts are just that, that was okay, I suppose. It had some nice emotional beats to pluck at the heartstrings. But it didn’t make much sense to me.
Loved the first 10 minutes. I wondered where they were gonna go from there. But the resolution was, dare I say it, a deus ex machina. Or maybe more literally a deus ex spatium cuniculum (or something like that – my Latin is rusty).
But RTD does know how to do emotion with his endings, and that seemed to be the overall point. And I liked that. I did shed a little tear.
Now, I’m off to bed.
22 June 2024 at 02:22 #76481Well, here are a couple of reflections.I think we should change the subtitle of our forum to:
“Theories even more dramatically satisfying than what’s actually happening.”
Don’t get me wrong, I like fantasy. But if I am looking for pure fantasy I will turn to Michael Powell’s gorgeous version of “The Thief of Baghdad”. But not, alas, to this.
22 June 2024 at 03:53 #76483The Doctor says, though, @blenkinsopthebrave that “we invest things with significance.”
you did good work @craig 🙏
22 June 2024 at 04:12 #76485So it appears the rumour’s were true or were they and we have unfinished threads to be revealed and that’s all I’ll say for now cause I couldn’t wait and watched it on iPlayer like our fantastic leader😉
22 June 2024 at 04:14 #76486@miapatrick I think you won @mudlark some cash… “Mrs Flood chameleon arced til Christmas.”
Niiice.
I really, really would’ve liked the carol to have been used a little more. But overall, I can see why RTD has gone down this particular path. We’ve had reality bombs, the most important woman in the universe, the end of the world. And the death of the end…. So the death of death makes sense…..
and I enjoyed the use of 73 Yards.
22 June 2024 at 08:54 #76489I confess I am slightly underwhelmed.
Too many clues? Or are we all just bonkers?
Problems: in the original, Sutekh’s time corridor was extended into the future. Nothing about the Vortex. Scarman never touched the tardis controls… they would only respond to The Doctor. Maybe Sutekh did something telekinetically. Continuity shmontinuity. But not very satisfactory.
Not sure how Mel was ‘infected.’
The demise of the world was via the show’s new favourite mode of death… echoes the death of Scarman, but I did previously wonder if the Monks might have something to do with Sutekh cos they did turn people to dust. They also employed weird slow astral lightning; Dust Death was to do with the ‘purity’ of consent. DD also utilised in Sleep No More.
In that Dust Death was reversed once Sutekh had been destroyed, it does beg the question in my mind whether any of this was ‘real.’ Were the characters deleted from the program but ‘saved.’ However, isn’t the speculation about virtual reality just a reflection of our dissatisfaction with this kind of fantasy?
Basically The Doctor took the dog for a walk. Very funny.
Positives:
Ruby’s decision was real and believable. Satisfying, like Martha saying that wasn’t what she wanted. Not like Mel going off with Sabalom Glitz (actually I never even watched that). The fact that Mel actually went WAS ironically satisfying. The business of the scan and Ruby’s untraceable DNA was us being played.
The Doctor seems to be tasked with finding his family. Interesting that this seems to be a continuation of the sometimes criticised ‘who is Who/Cartmel 2.0’ arc that commenced with Moff and was then given little more than lip service by Zchib. RTD seems to have defeated the continuity bashers. Anyway, on the basis of this series, Susan and the Doctor’s biological mother seem on the radar, but who knows where that search may lead?
Up in the air: Mavity; Rogue and REG; the fate of the Space Babies; the fate of the Finetime Flakes; why is there a girl called Splice?; wither Rog!; Mrs Flood!; and lastly, when will POTUS pull the plug on UNIT, their recruitment seems out of control folks.
I also need to check what happened to Harriet because I have a nasty feeling she’s still in The Tardis.
22 June 2024 at 09:01 #76490Well, there’s the Russell.
the total death and destruction so early on confirmed we were watching to see how he undoes it, no ifs. Which is fine and it wasn’t badly done but…
Ruby is important because she was important to the Doctor. Which isn’t a bad shift back in emphasis rather than a second Clara.
but what does this explain? Why was she making it snow? Why was the importance of who her mother was to her able to make her seem so significant? We’re still entrenched into the magic entering the world, but, is that the big boss sorted?
It’s not been confirmed Mrs Flood ISN’T Susan 😜. She does remain interesting – she’s not a minion of the god, she’s not a normal human. She seems to be at times on the side of the Doctor.
22 June 2024 at 09:24 #76491Mrs Flood said just before she and gran were turned to dust that she had so many plans this to me seems to indicate she will be a big bad at some point and her behavior is making me think she may be a new Master in the vien of Missy so more of a frenemy again than an outright enemy. Harriet got forcibly ejected from the Tardis by the Tardis shooting some kind of energy weapon when the Doctor regained control of the Tardis. I loved how they have bought in the Memory Tardis concept and have effectively tied in Tales of the Tardis series into the main Who universe.
22 June 2024 at 10:37 #76492Hmm… very emotional, but the unwinding of time seemed a bit ‘how the hell we going to undo this, oh well, lets just do it’.
22 June 2024 at 10:47 #76493@ps1l0v3y0u. quit possibly we’ll see him actively looking out for his daughter/son, which he said he’s rather shied away from, but knew would exist at some point, because he knew Susan. RTD hasn’t told us/decided yet how much he knows. I think he thinks Jenny is dead. But this is one thing I really do like – the Time-whimey child, who’s own child turn up so much earlier in the Doctor’s Timeline than them.
And I think overall this kind of thing works better done the River way – a mysterious reoccurring character, rather than a full time companion so I’m glad it’s not Ruby after all. And its so much easier for the show to lean into the idea that everybody matters, everybody is important, when its not carrying a show-stompingly significant one of the kind literally the centre of the universe human around at the same time.
@blenkinsopthebrave I feel similar, but as a consolation, the Doctor was right there with us for a while. Who is Ruby? Is that woman Susan? There must be some clues in this tape. But he’s just happy to have one of those ‘nobody dies’ episodes (this episode anyway, I know someone died last week). and, as you say, @thane16, ‘we invest things with significance’.
22 June 2024 at 10:57 #76494Well that was so disappointing. All those theories about who Ruby’s mother was and it just turns out to be a teenager who gets pregnant and abandons her child. Just why was Sutekh so obsessed with knowing. He’s the god of death, surely he has better things to do.
Tbh, I couldn’t give a toss who Ruby’s mother was and the sentimental crap just slowed everything down. Same goes for the woman with the spoon, no one cared about that either.
How could the TARDIS have no idea what Sutekh had done?
Another episode and another reset. Killing people really isn’t worth the bother is it? All those planets dead and bought back to life. Does that include Skaro, now that can’t be a good idea. God I miss the Daleks!
RTD’s writing for Dr Who has gone downhill and the series is in trouble.
22 June 2024 at 11:40 #76495@classicsrule1 welcome to the forum!
I do think that the entire season WAS about the significance of Ruby’s mother. Pretty much from Christmas.Many orphans, like the Doctor, and those who don’t know their parents, have taken this story to heart (Still, I understand you registered just to complain 😀). The series is strong and has been this way for many years. I’m sure it’ll go from strength to strength. There’s usually something in it for most people. This season, no exception.
@miapatrick yes, agreed. The ordinary amongst us shine. Not everyone is the Impossible Girl. I loved The Kind Woman. How memories die before people -like a virus attacking before the Dust drowns. I liked that image and idea.
Puro. x
22 June 2024 at 11:43 #76496@miapatrick flood shouldnt be susan, but must be linked to time lords in some way, because the first time she appeared she didn’t recognise the Tardis when she first sees it (“who dumped that in the middle of the street”) but recognises it as a Tardis when it dematerialises. By the same argument, she shouldn’t be the Master or Rani.
22 June 2024 at 11:47 #76497Now why did we think the episodes were part of a virtual reality? I remember how Rose was able to phone her mum on her first trip into space. The same scene and photography with Ruby -who also phoned her mum, Clara… We had Rogue, much like Capt Jack…. There’s probably something there which could still be relevant to our ideas about VR… & the similarity of these episodes to many others. From Carla to Clara etc etc…
22 June 2024 at 12:17 #76498First impressions? Very underwhelming.
22 June 2024 at 13:05 #76499@classicsrule1 @thane16 @cookgroom
Sutekh’s obsession with hoodie woman was odd. Makes you wonder if that was really Sutekh. What were all the other goddy names about? Is this a reflection of The Doctor himself… Sutekh was obsessed because The Doctor is obsessed and mortified by his own origins? It’s easier for him to believe they’re all dead rather than look them in the eye.
So why saddle a C21st populist nutjob with a High Medieval Celtic handle? Why have a girl called Splice? Why despatch suspiciously Daleky looking Space Babies (who happen to have a Sutekhy looking snot dog in the basement) to a far from certain destination? Why did Finetime and Homeworld remind me of The Library and it’s security system? Why is Rogue a ringer for Capn Jack and was that really REG in ‘the scan’?
Do we abandon the VR theory and decide Russ can’t write anymore? Early days… but bits of this series has been flawed… almost as if he’s trying to out meta Moff. It’s like The Stones doing psychedelia pre Beggars Banquet (actually I’m a fan of Brian in full Dulcimer pomp)… not everyone’s cup of tea.
VR games fits in with the Toymaker. Or it could be another aspect of The Doctor who once made his name rocking The Matrix.
Mrs Flood? Pre Melody River; long since conditioned against The Doctor but has never seen the Police Box. Presumably means she’ll regenerate as a little girl.
22 June 2024 at 13:43 #76500After the first two episodes of this season flopped for me and my partner, we got really invested from episode 3 onwards, we really enjoyed the rest of the season. Lots of speculation about the Pantheon, Ruby’s mum, Ruby herself, Mrs Flood, The Doctor and his descendants…
I refuse to believe that RTD et al weren’t aware that we’d spend this whole season speculating and coming up with wild (but plausible) theories. So it strikes me me as incredibly odd that out of all the theories which could have been true, the writers chose the one conclusion we dismissed as too unbelievably boring, only to handwave at exactly how that happened, and ignore half of our remaining questions.
We were given an entire pantheon of borderline-metatextual gods to play with. We were given the possibility of part-timelords running around, we were given timey-wimey stuff. All to throw us off the course that, actually, this mystery fascinating enough that the god of death (who had been dormant for centuries) came out of hiding just because it was just super invested in the same mystery we were, would culminate in a pretty much homeopathic plot resolution much less exciting than what any of the fans came up with :/
I guess I’m not so bothered about the resolution itself, only that much cooler and more fun alternatives which actually made more sense were ignored. After all that buildup!
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On a side note, did anyone else feel like The Doctor was pretty much ghosting Ruby at the end there? “Of course I’ll come back, hon… Toodles forever!”
22 June 2024 at 14:11 #76501I guess Ruby was lucky that she didn’t end up being called ‘Road. I hope we do get to see her make some more appearances in what they’ll call Season 2. The problem is that season is already being filmed so there isn’t the opportunity to address what was wrong with the previous season – i.e. The Doctor crying far too much and boring us to death about his family and a lack of good villains. Wouldn’t it have been better in the finale just shown that all the Gods made an appearance rather than just Sutekh and his harbingers.
There’s just too many mysteries that never seem to be properly explained or have a disappointing revelation. What’s next? Why does Susan Twist make such poor tea? What exactly does Rose do?
22 June 2024 at 15:15 #76502Rose makes plushies. Good for UNIT morale.
Susan Triad’s mind is too highly trained to make tea.
The Vlinx is the all important link to… ah forget I said that.
22 June 2024 at 15:34 #76503And in the cold light of morning…still totally underwhelmed.
What was the Doctor’s line: “The death of death is life”…or some such nonsense. Come on…even at the level of fantasy, this is simply stupid. And Ruby discovers her mother’s name because the fascist Welsh Prime Minister has conveniently ordered everyone in the UK to have a DNA sample taken in the 2040s, and it is conveniently accessible for the Doctor and Ruby to find and access. Really? That’s it? That’s how we resolve the question of Ruby’s identity? Did RTD2 write that or did the Space Babies write it in a group session?
And where did it all end up? With a pure soap opera conclusion of Ruby and her two mothers, all embracing as the Tardis disappears. Come back, Chibnall, all is forgiven!
22 June 2024 at 15:46 #76504I was thinking about stories this morning. As some of you know I used to work in the film industry and did script analysis. Before that, film (especially scriptwriting) was my MA.
The simplest explanation I ever read for plotting a film, and the one that stuck with me the most, was this:
Get your character(s) stuck up a tree. Throw rocks at them. Get them down again.
And in these final two episodes RTD did a great job of getting our characters stuck up a tree. And he threw a lot of rocks at them, including the death of everyone in the universe. I just don’t think getting them down again was satisfying.
And I say that as someone who actually bought into the silliness of a planet being towed back into orbit by a TARDIS. But that involved groundwork, and it involved all the characters working together, each having something to do something to contribute.
I think if I had read this I would have argued that, if you want to resolve the situation in this way, we need to establish reasonably early that Sutekh is not just death, but can reincarnate by bringing death to death.
That could have been done subtly. Maybe Rose or Kate has some dried flowers on her desk, and there’s a joke made about them early on. Then the Doctor notices that the flowers were revived as Sutekh was turning people to dust.
Or it could have been done bigger, with the Doctor testing a theory by luring Sutekh to a pile of ash and seeing the person come back to life.
I dunno. But it would have helped with my suspension of disbelief issues. Because I don’t know how it all works.
I mean, Sutekh hung around in London after everyone was dust, and no one was revived. So how does a quick fly-by change that? Is it from power from the vortex? Can Sutekh choose not to revive but somehow being in the vortex discombobulated them or something?
It’s just disappointing that no one said at some point “This still needs a bit of work because I have questions”.
22 June 2024 at 16:17 #76505Following on from my last post, I just imagined a scene where the Doctor tricks Sutekh into bringing Kate back to life. So we all learn Sutekh can bring death to death.
Kate then sees all her colleagues as dust.
And then, knowing what he is about to do for the whole universe, the Doctor has to apologise to Kate and say to Sutekh “Kill her again”.
Because Kate has to be dead to be revived along with everyone else.
Now that would have been great drama (if I do say so myself).
22 June 2024 at 16:29 #76506@classicsrule1 @craig @blenkinsopthebrave
Well, the only possible explanation is it’s VR.
Ruby (and Bill before her) were deserted. The Doctor was deserted and abused. His mind has been wiped several times. This is someone examining the fluff in Doctor’s navel… like ‘Extremis’ but based on The Doctor. The Doctor is ultimately being turned against himself by… well, this is the guy in The Scan. He doesn’t cry… he snows.
That actually makes sense. If it’s not this or something better (I sincerely hope) then yes it rivals Zchib for incomprehensible garbage. The UNIT seems horribly Fam like, saved only by Jemma. Maybe Russ is even saying, ‘that ain’t easy Chris I know, nothing personal.’
It has to be a constructed reality. I think you misunderstand the ‘death of death’ speech. The Doctor, who doesn’t use a gun (against sentience) is murdering the giver of death. He hopes to reverse what has been done… but ‘death of death is life’ is still nonsense. Or like some theoretical physicist explaining the Black hole information paradox. What’s wrong with a one way information plug hole? Why is infinity (really very big) the same as infinity (you got the sum wrong)?
I’m an intuitionist.
Seriously the statement is on a par with ‘a cold sun, I ask you?’ from Amy’s choice.
It can’t be real. And it would seem to have been designed that way.
As for the art… how it’s been written… well I admit I dunno.
22 June 2024 at 17:51 #76507UNIT seems horribly Fam like, saved only by Jemma.
Yes, indeed, but did you not see Kate and Col. Ibrahim reach out and hold each other’s hand after they miraculously come back to life. My heart sinks about where that might lead.
And as for everyone on Earth as well as the entire universe miraculously coming back to life, the more I think about it, the more offensive I find it. Yes, RTD2 may want to invoke magic and embrace fantasy, but the idea of the Doctor waving a magic wand, with Sutekh at the end, and everyone comes back to life seems like a cheap conjuror’s trick. When the Doctor in “Pyramids of Mars” defeated Sutekh he did it because he understood time (the 2 minute gap for radio waves travelling between Earth and Mars). His power was knowledge (and that was inspiring to a kid like me when I saw it originally).
22 June 2024 at 17:54 #76508Well done everyone for being 2000 million times more imaginative than RTD (at least in his current iteration – did he just get old and sentimental, or what?)
Things that most hurt:
Death plus death = life. Is that like two wrongs making a right?! Uh-uh.
Gatwa still so half-powered. I know it can’t stay the same forever but compared with the immediate impact and then ongoing huge development performance-wise – reaching Shakespearean levels – of Eccleston through to Capaldi, he’s still so absent and limited. Yes, a lot of it IS the writing, but his one big speech to Sutekh here was empty. We’ve all been going on about him crying, but rewatching The Giggle I was instantly struck (for example) by Tennant’s* tears, so wracked and wrought.
He was superb in Rogue (not written by RTD, noted). Maybe he needs to join the cast of Bridgerton, or we need much more humour, playfulness and wit, and more juicy antagonists for him to bounce off
Didn’t cry one bit, despite the ending’s best efforts. Seriously, all that ordinary is only a pov is great but as with Dot and Bubble I felt bludgeoned. It was sub-Spielberg for syrup and cliche. All the women standing together. It feels like an idea from Lockdown, when the nurses were ‘angels’. Come on.
Is it Disney?? I need someone to blame, and the evil corporation is always my preferred choice. But I fear.
Let’s hope we are right and it’s all AI/a magic trick real or imagined, still to be explored in a stronger season 2.
Meanwhile, the best bit was the Flood ending. Which was tacked on, desperately hoping to make people return after this fiasco. So here she is white-coated, a Snow Queen for the Christmas episode (more derivation?). Just hoping it doesn’t get even more panto. If the Doctor’s wearing thigh boots and whiskers and carrying an orange knapsack, don’t be surprised!
Oh well, happily back to iPlayer and Hartnell. Thank God I have all of classic to get through. It should take me to Christmas and I can ride through the next new EP on a wave of nostalgia. Which is what this season has largely done.
Pleeaassse now can we have genuine newness and something to make us feel alive?
*I seem to have mentioned DT a lot. He isn’t my fave, actually, but I think is part of a golden age, after all.
22 June 2024 at 18:22 #76509Oh, btw, was it @blenkinsopthebrave who suggested Sutekh would be defeated by the Doctor taping over Ruby’s video with an episode of EastEnders?!
That is pretty much what happened in the end. So someone got something right!👍
Also, happy that Ruby is gone. Her departure moved me not a jot. I never got a sense of her so it was like ‘go on, get out of the TARDIS!’
But…
Would like to ask… Is it me/some of us? Are there any Americans here to shed light on whether things are playing better for the intended new audience(s) in the US? Is my disappointment to do with my age and culture? Not saying this was good, but am I missing the things that other audiences now look for? Younger audiences, used to other references?
This whole series (bar three eps) reminds me of The Greatest Showman, which I expected things from that just weren’t there. Other people loved that film, and the surface theme of diversity and self-affirmation, plus a tune or two, was enough to make it a huge hit.
Am I looking for a Shakespearean levels of characterisation in the Doctor still, where all anyone else wants is a pretty face (that again here), a honey-hug, and a slick song and dance routine?
22 June 2024 at 18:37 #76510@bunface re: the brilliant Eastenders line–no that wasn’t me. It was the incomparable @whohar.
On the question of Gatwa’s performance that you raised @bunface, when I compare him to Tennant (also not my personal favourite) Gatwa can do charm effortlessly, but I don’t feel he can do anger all that well. Yes, he can scream at the seeming death of humanity or punch the wall over his role in the death of Col. Chidozi, but they are examples of him expressing anger at himself. But if you compare him to Tennant’s anger in “The Giggle”, Gatwa cannot reach those levels.
22 June 2024 at 20:02 #76511Well just rewatched the official BBC showing of the episode and a couple of things I either missed or they just passed me by. Mrs Flood as well as definitely indicating she is definitely something big to come. I now have a sneaking suspicion that she may not be such a big bad because as well as she said “she had such plans ” when she started to turn to dust but when she returns she calls the Doctor “you cleaver cleaver boy” now who else has called him that hmmmm but I wouldn’t bet on it being River just yet, my main thought is this series has been asking who is Rubys mother but what if there is a second subtext as the Doctor is we now know is a foundling who is his Mother could Mrs Flood possibly be his real mother….. may be I’m just clutching at straws.
The other big reveal was that Sutekhs “infection” of the Tardis was not recent but he’s been there since the original PoM story. Okay now I am rambling.
22 June 2024 at 20:14 #76512Narrator voice <Ruby was not, in fact, Horus, God of Rejuvenation>
I’m tickled my suggestion that Sutekh had been travelling in shadow-form with the TARDIS ever since The Pyramids of Mars panned out though, at least. I do really, really appreciate having, in RTD2, a fan of the classic series.
Like others, I was also disappointed in The Empire of Death on first watch. I think, having re-watched The Pyramids of Mars, I just miss the longer story format of old.
The Red TARDIS possessed by Sutekh, the Doctor travelling to speak with the remnants of people, on planets become barren desert worlds in the path of the death-wave, looking for material/ pieces of the puzzle needed to defeat Sutekh… had these ideas had narrative room to breath, over several episodes, they could have been amazing.
I LOVE the Red TARDIS, and I wanted the Doctor to have time to have a conversation with her, to tell her how sorry he was he didn’t realise Sutekh was growing in strength inside of her, like an Osiran parasite, all this time.
The sequence with the woman and the dusty cradle in the tent on an unknown world; the woman who’d forgotten her baby had already died, and who gave the Doctor her precious metal spoon, was excellent. No big special effects, just great acting.
I think the spoon is a reference to the Fourth Doctor’s quote from The Creature from the Pit:
“Well, to be fair I did have a couple of gadgets which he probably didn’t, like a teaspoon and an open mind.”
And honestly, if you haven’t seen the Creature, do yourself a silly favour – the Beeb’s props department would not get away with that monster now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD2NT8fd4Kk
By contrast, the scene when the Unit “Fam” were firing all kinds of weapons and bullets at the Red TARDIS was just cringe. Of course, human weaponry wasn’t going to be able to touch a Time Lord’s time machine, let alone one being possessed by a God of Death! And Kate Lethbridge-Stewart should have known that. I just hate a bunch of guns for no reason, and so (at least historically) does the Doctor.
I understand there will be a UNIT spin-off for Disney, hence the Unit “Fam” set-up…
On a second watch, I think many of the mysteries we’ve been pursuing remain unresolved and continue to point to a universe where fantasy and reality have been bleeding into one another.
Why could Ruby physically make it snow through the power of memory?
Why were her memories able to physically manifest a “Memory TARDIS” (with the help of the Time Window and then the Memory TARDIS’s own memories of herself)? It was a bit of a “death trap” as the Doctor said, sure, but it could actually fly?
Why is The Carol of the Bells physcially embedded in Ruby and plays when the scary fascist DNA database is searching for her mother?
I know the answers are supposed to be – because of the power of Ruby’s wish to find her mother again. But that means we are now in a universe where wishes can materially manifest.
In the universe-before-mavity that wouldn’t have happened. Fantasy made manifest is definitely abroad in this universe, and that’s new.
The Doctor at the end was so very like Peter Pan, trying to persuade Ruby not to go into the cafe and speak to her birth mother, because he knew if she did, she’d grow up a little more and leave him.
And Ruby’s wish physically manifesting is also straight out of Peter Pan, when Tinkerbell was dying and she was saved by Peter calling on all the children of the world to say out loud – “I believe in fairies”…
And why was Mrs. Flood/ the Snow Queen hiding out as Ruby’s neighbour in particular all this time?
I don’t think the Legend of Ruby Sunday is done just yet and I’m sure we’ll see her again.
22 June 2024 at 20:20 #76513So aside from the Doctor, has Sutekh now been in more episodes of Dr Who than any other character?
22 June 2024 at 20:37 #76514@classicsrule1 – The TARDIS still beats Sutekh, as she only got infected by him during the Fourth Doctor’s era, so she was whirling through the episodes with just the Doc before that!
22 June 2024 at 21:00 #76515Why could Ruby physically make it snow through the power of memory?
Why were her memories able to physically manifest a “Memory TARDIS” (with the help of the Time Window and then the Memory TARDIS’s own memories of herself)? It was a bit of a “death trap” as the Doctor said, sure, but it could actually fly?
I thought the Doctor said something about Memory being Life??
So the spark of life, the re-emergence of the life force that is memory (the compost?!) powered up the Tardis that was a seedbed of refs and memories, with Ruby’s memories acting as a super fertiliser?
And therefore a physical manifestation can be born?
Or something…
22 June 2024 at 21:04 #76516I think the spoon is a reference to the Fourth Doctor’s quote from The Creature from the Pit:
Also to Robot of Sherwood?
22 June 2024 at 21:10 #76517Totally agree that it all may have worked better if it had multiple episodes to develop, as in the early days of Who. On the other hand, perhaps he did have multiple episodes, but chose to prioritize other issues in those episodes. Stuff like the snow, Ruby’s relationship to music, etc , were left strangely unfilfilled.
Love the cartoon of Sutekh as Snoopy!
And appreciate your points about how RTD2 incorporates stuff like Peter Pan.
22 June 2024 at 21:20 #76518Brilliant posts people!
With the wishes at the end of the universe as @juniperfish elucidated, is it possible this applies to “death to death = life” @bunface you wrote of “2 wrongs don’t make a right.” And @blenkinsopthebrave yes, it seems “stupid” unless it IS connected to the wishes?
But if that’s so, then wouldn’t the Doctor need to work through this which, he decidedly did not do, so I’m stumped too!@craig “characters stuck up a tree and get them down.” Yes, quite right.
@devilishrobby indeed, is seems she is a big bad or, with the “clever boy” idea is it that she’s a watcher figure? But this doesn’t explain the prophetic utterances about “tell your maker.”
😳22 June 2024 at 21:40 #76519@thane16 indeed her comment’s appear contradictory at times on one hand there’s menacing intent then on the other hand she’ll appear pleased with the doctors actions or success. It was this behavior that that made me wonder earlier if she was a female incarnation of the master/Missy could it be that the female versions of the master are predisposed to liking the doctor and the male incarnations are positively homicidal towards him, but as others have noted surely an incarnation of the master would recognise the Tardis so it makes this an unlikely probability.
22 June 2024 at 22:26 #76520Still processing, and will re-watch. But did anyone else think Infinity Wars when people started crumbling to dust? And Endgame when those deaths were overturned?
22 June 2024 at 22:34 #76521@cathannabell oh please please don’t let Disney have had a hand in that though now you have pointed it out the suspicion does come to mind I mean even the Cornel was returned to life though as Sutekhs “first” victim it did make sense
22 June 2024 at 22:57 #76522I know. I wasn’t impressed. And I am probably hoping for too much. But, nonetheless, here goes:
Mrs Flood at the end.
Was she covered in costume of…snow flakes?
Was she like an epilogue figure in a Shakespearean play? (And the one that comes to mind is “The Tempest”.)
22 June 2024 at 22:59 #76523@cathannabel @devilishrobby I did indeed think about Thanos’ big Snap from Avengers.
Thanos vs Sutekh – Sutekh would presumably win, as Thanos *only* wanted to depopulate the universe by half, not slaughter everyone.
It also made me think about Torchwood: Miracle Day when Jack Harkness’ blood is used to abolish death on earth (with predictably awful consequences).
I wondered whether the Doctor bringing “death to death” by killing Sutekh might lead to a similar scenario next season, where the dead have been resurrected across the universe by the Doctor’s murder of the God of Death.
Perhaps reversing the effects of the Flux? Perhaps revivifying the genocide of Gallifrey by the Master’s Death Particle?
22 June 2024 at 23:06 #76524After all the hype and advance publicity, with RTG telling us it would be devastating, heart rending and the most spectacular season finale ever, that was something of a disappointment to put it mildly. All the musical cues and clues led nowhere, it seems, and the mystery of Ruby and her parentage turned out to be nothing out of the ordinary, even though Sutekh thought it important enough for him to spare Ruby and the Doctor in an attempt to find the answer. All it amounted to was that Ruby’s unknown mother was of cosmic importance because she was important to Ruby and the Doctor, but in the wider world that is hardly unique. Many if not most people at some time in their lives are of overwhelming importance to at least one other person, so why were they the only ones spared?
Before these last two instalments aired I wrote that I worried that the whole thing would end up collapsing in a heap of incoherence, and the resolution of the crisis did indeed seem incoherent, sad to say. What does the ‘death of death is life’ even mean? Even the absence of death doesn’t necessarily mean life, and in any case Sutekh is a bringer of death, not death itself. If it comes to a personification of Death I think I’ll settle for Terry Pratchett’s version. If the Tardis, in the course of dragging Sutekh into the Time vortex, had also dragged him back through time and in so doing annulled all his works, the solution might have been plausible, but unless I missed something (which is entirely possible, since this is after watching for the first time), that didn’t seem to be what was intended.
On the plus side the episode was visually effective, but even there I had reservations. The apparition of Sutekh, realised through a mixture of puppetry and CGI, was impressive, but to me he looked like a cross between a donkey and a wolf*, which rather spoiled the effect. They would, I think, have done better to start with the image of Sutekh in Pyramids of Mars, which was suitably weird and sinister looking, and work on that (‘glow up’ is, I think, the current term).
It saddens me to be so negative, but there were things I really liked. The Tardis in the Time Window, being the memory of the Tardis and its essence and summation over all her time with the Doctor, was a wonderful concept and wonderfully realised. In particular I liked the mini replica of the designer’s monstrosity that was the thirteenth Doctor’s console room, reduced to a hearth fire around which the Doctor and Ruby could warm themselves and so performing a function for which it was much better suited. The idea that Sutekh had been a hidden presence in the Tardis ever since the Doctor first encountered him in 1911 was genuinely chilling, though I did wonder how he had evaded detection by the Tardis herself. But she isn’t omniscient, and it’s conceivable that a parasite lurking in the crevices might escape her notice. On the other hand, a parasite who is at the same time a god of cosmic evil, steadily increasing in power, might have some difficulty escaping notice. The story of the discovery of Ruby’s birth family was touching, but not enough in itself to be the whole stuff of Doctor Who, let alone a finale’. Even as a coda it was it was rather overwhelmed by the pyrotechnics
Unless there is something more about Ruby yet to be revealed, which seems unlikely, we are now left with just the enigma of Mrs Flood. She is obviously more than she seemed, but then we knew that from the end of The Church on Ruby Road onward. She wasn’t possessed by Sutekh, but it isn’t clear that she is entirely on the side of the angels either, and evidently she has her own agenda. We leave her, looking like a cross between the Snow Queen and Mary Poppins, foretelling more trouble for the Doctor.
Please note: I didn’t read any of the comments before posting this, so if I have repeated points already made by others I apologise, but it was not intentional
* The wolf would have been appropriate enough as a signifier of death if we were dealing with the Norse gods and Fenris, but we weren’t
22 June 2024 at 23:19 #76525@blenkinsopthebrave – I’ve had The Tempest in mind as an inspiration for this season because of the magic entering the universe since Wild Blue Yonder.
The Tempest has been ripe for modern discussion in the context of colonialism – Prospero seems like a cool magician aristocrat but he sets about enslaving the spirits of the island he and his daughter *colonise*.
I know RTD prefers to wear his popular culture references on his sleeve, not his Shakespeare, but I also know what a political animal he is at heart, and Ncuti Gatwa being a child Rwandan refugee originally, at a time the UK Government has been trying to implement its hostile Rwanda deportation policy is just too good for him not to use in some way, metaphorically. I noticed Gatwa’s Doctor pointed out to Ruby in Empire of Death that the looting of Egyptian artefacts back to Britain in The Pyramids of Mars was “cultural appropriation”.
Space Babies was a refugee story, and it opened this season. I expect the theme of refugees to return.
I noticed that we got a shot of one of the symbols this incarnation of the Doctor has on his fingernails in Empire of Death and it looked like a psychick cross:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thee_Temple_ov_Psychick_Youth#/media/File:Psychick_cross.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thee_Temple_ov_Psychick_Youth
I don’t think it’s meant to be a direct reference to TOPY!
But it IS meant to suggest a magical/ occult/ Time Lordy symbol of some kind.
Perhaps the Meep’s Boss is a Master (or Mistress) Sorcerer – maybe it’s Mrs. Flood!
22 June 2024 at 23:58 #76526Well, here are a couple of reflections. I think we should change the subtitle of our forum to:
“Theories even more dramatically satisfying than what’s actually happening.”
Perhaps they should employ the members of this forum collectively as a kind of think tank to come up with scenarios for future Doctor Who episodes 😉
Further thoughts arising on the subject of unresolved questions. Given that the legions which the Toymaker said were coming never showed up, are they still to come? Maestro and Sutekh plus a couple of people temporarily possessed by Sutekh, don’t really match up to the definition of ‘legions’.
If Ruby was, as it turned out, just an ordinary human being, how come she could, just by the power of memory, cause it to snow any time, anywhere?
23 June 2024 at 00:05 #76527These last two episodes made no sense.
They did not explain why Ruby made it snow and had music embedded in her.
Ruby would not remember the day she was abandoned. She was a baby. The two episodes hinge on this.
Sutekh could have not been riding the TARDIS since Pyramids of Mars. The TARDIS has been blownup, thrown in a reactor, hit by lightning in the vortex, possessed, and beaten up numerous times. It was even ripped from it’s shell and materialized with a new one.
I am amazed that this made it to television.
23 June 2024 at 00:33 #76528@mudlark Ha! Well, given the choice between engaging in collective and convivial bonkerizing, and the dubious charms of coming up with script ideas that would guarantee sufficient viewing numbers to satisfy the suits at Disney+, I vote in favour of doing just what we have been doing and enjoying on this wonderful site for the last decade (can it be that long?).
@krathoon Good point about the Tardis. When the Gatwa Doctor whacks Tennant’s Tardis and creates a new one, did Sutekh divide in two, or stay with Tennant’s Tardis, or conveniently (for the purpose of this episode) slide into the Gatwa Tardis, or…?
23 June 2024 at 01:46 #76529Oh. The TARDIS was also shrunk. Did it shrink Sutekh?
23 June 2024 at 02:06 #76530@bunface & @juniperfish yes, I’m thinking which is it?
If it’s collective wishes emerging from Wild Blue Yonder then why did the Doctor narrate a completely different reason for the return of life itself? That “ memory is life ?”A pedantic friend said that RTD “has the gift of conciseness.” In rewatching Before Gap or classic episodes, many of them stretched the plot out undesirably with obstacles each Doctor fixed before moving onto another. This didn’t happen here, RTD was concise, providing just enough information for us to follow along.
I know @juniperfish you stated that ideas “needed to breathe” & I get that, but is that our problem rather than the writer’s, I wonder…?.
Puro
23 June 2024 at 02:12 #76531Interesting point!
@blenkinsopthebraveah! Yes I think it probably stayed with the Doctor proper?! What do we called that? Doctor to the first power…. 🤔
(Sorry about this -I do most posts on my phone & attempting to cut & paste quotes is often not possible for some reason).
@mudlark I think the snow came because of the world now hinging on wishes -from Blue Yonder. I think this comes from further exposition in The Church on Ruby Sunday. Also words like “luck” were chucked about a lot & we had goblins 👹 which reminds me of fairies- the same category perhaps.23 June 2024 at 02:32 #76532Yeah. I think this season leaned a little too much on fantasy and did not make as much sense in the final two episodes.
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