Empire of Death

[syzygy @thane16]

@krathoon I’m not sure the episodes hinged on Ruby remembering anything as a baby. She has the VHS tape. She went to the time window where they could see who else was there & to closely see if she could describe who her mother was -as in clearly describe or draw. UNIT would have sufficient information to be able to create a composite of this person I’m assuming.

[Krathoon @krathoon]

@syzygy Ok. It confused me when the Doctor told Ruby to concentrate to make the Memory TARDIS solid. She would not remember. She was a baby at the time.

[syzygy @thane16]

@krathoon because she’s remembering only her previous memory of the Time Window & her previous memories of looking at the VHS. We’ve learned, in the last 10+ years, that when we think we recall a fact or a memory that really we’re remembering HOW we remembered it last. But recall now how the Doctor LET wishes into the universe. This is significant.

Lastly, Ruby has no awareness-memory of being a baby BUT she was there: her DNA, her construct, her super structure, was there. This memory, then, is still a true one.

Also the SPOON. a clever clog remembered the spoon in The Sherwood Story (sorry, I can’t scroll back at the mo) but it’s also in Hell Bent and Heaven Sent.

I’m reminded of the Doctor eating soup from the village dwellers. This was sufficiently concise a point for us to recognise his alliance with them & his dislike of TL society. That conciseness is in this episode but I’d argue it’s a simpler story.

Puro.

[syzygy @thane16]

@juniperfish and @bunface you both referenced the Spoon.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@thane16

but is that our problem rather than the writer’s, I wonder…?

The writer’s. Definitely. Like @craig, I too have an MA in scriptwriting. If I’d submitted this ep for comment, it would have been returned with copious notes, one if which would have intimated that it was really a first draft.

@mudlark, @blenkinsopthebrave

I’ve previously stated that this forum could write a killer ep of Doctor Who. There is such a breadth of knowledge on here on a range of topics, as well as a level of intelligence and a willingness to engage in a collegiate way.

I think it would be a lot of fun and, if what we were to produce was not as good as we hoped, then we’d at least gain insight into the process of writing Who.

Not sure of the practicalities of how thus would work, but I’m happy to try.

[WhoHar @whohar]

And back to the ep.

Not sure why RTD suggested watching that list of eps. prior to watching the finale. The only link to Spearhead From Space was the “Who 1” numberplate from Bessie, that we saw briefly in the memory TARDIS.

My heart sank a bit when it was revealed that not only Earth but the whole Universe was affected. Again.

And where was 14 while all this was going on?

I wasn’t invested enough in the characters to have any kind of emotional response when Ruby left. I think the series has been much too short to develop any sense of bond between the Doc and Ruby. So her leaving carried no weight. Suprising really as RTD has normally done this aspect very well.

[syzygy @thane16]

@whohar I don’t agree that it is the writer’s, necessarily. We all have some form of post-grad here so we can think, obviously, but could it not be a situation where we are not accounting for the concise writing RTD might have shown here?

We want MORE emphasis on why Ruby felt/saw snow or why the carol’s so dynamic & I believe that this was answered specifically in Wild Blue Yonder & in The Church on Ruby Road.

Very old Who, like the original PoM, had a series of obstacles which the Doctor either failed to climb or eventually succeeded in climbing. Audiences now see that a LOT in the dross of excessive streaming platforms & new series (after series), soulless pieces with little development of specific characters who are trite, have claustrophobic scenes in which we’re not invested & yet rumour spreads like a blaze in thatch….
Perhaps what this episode needed was more spine…

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

The final scene with Mrs Flood: Is there anyone out there who has both better equipment and better reflexes to focus on the ring on her finger? Is it similar to one of the Doctor’s rings?

 

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

Oh my what an influx of posts o/n @juniperfish I too wondered what this means for Gallifrey though so far the only ones we know were resurrected we the ones dusted by Sutekh’s dust so presumably those that were dead prior stay dead. Right now to look back at the posts I missed

 

[WhoHar @whohar]

@thane16

I wasn’t flashing my post grad creds, just pointing out that the EoD script as is would not have passed muster on my specific course.

I think that having an 8 ep season has meant that RTD may have had to cut things that would otherwise have improved the overall storyline. Maybe.

I presume the 8 eps was because Gatwa wasn’t available but, if so, then maybe pick another actor.

My view is that the level of bombast coming out of the DW prod team and  RTD were at the expense of the writing. It’s almost as if the teasing of the fans was their focus, rather than telling an entertaining story.

The finale is a great example of this. Prior to the eps airing, it was all about the greatest threat, the high stakes and the emotional pull. None of that played out on screen. And that’s down to the writer’s choices: he chose to make Ruby’s mum an ordinary person, he chose to let the Doctor kill the most fearsome adversary by taking it for walkies with the Tardis, and he chose to reuse the Avengers Thanos plotline so everyone lives. Choices.

Perhaps he needs someone to rein him in a bit, or at least provide a counterpoint or an arm around the shoulder. It’s a tough job writing anything well, and Who has it’s specific foibles, so I have sympathy. But, objectively, the season has been a middling success.

[syzygy @thane16]

@whohar no, I totally get that. Certainly there’s a feel that the series is a tad ….thin, for me, at times? I’m reminded of characters who pirouetted on screen during 2011-2017 in chewy, but digestible stories in 11-14 eps a season including Christmas -certainly RTD had all sorts of specials after the success of season 2.

Whilst I like Ruby I do wonder if she’s sufficiently…complex beyond the not-orphan story? Rogue & Doom were captivating enough, showcasing her talents, but in general I have to admit there were meagre triumphs & vagrant habits.

I recall Mickey’s knavery, Rose & her mum -how operatically those stories were laid out. Amy & Rory: from boy to the man; the punch & humour;  the investigations of, & deep dives into, their alliance; their daughter; & their almost-divorce.

Then jousting Clara, all fractious sarcasm & a noble almost-death, recalling her simple-duple “Run you Clever Boy & remember mes” & the stunning writing. Compiling her losses is too difficult to do- there were many. But Moffat knew that a finale had to be earned, in the  campaign & the pursuit, was the win. Better to keep the capture til the last.

Sigh. 😞

Mind you, I don’t write verse: why enter a crowded field? 😀

Puro x

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@cookgroom My theory is Chameleon arced. At some point during the Christmas episode it was broken.

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@nanoroar I’m the same. Episodes three to seven were fantastic to me. I felt really engaged in the speculation. The resolution isn’t so satisfying. I do think there are possible threads. I don’t really understand why the snow – was it the Tardis engaging with Ruby? Mrs Flood remains intriguing. Rogue will hopefully be another River-Character.

At the end of the day I liked Moffat’s Who. incomparably more than RTDs, and I enjoyed the specials and this season more than I enjoyed his first run around (apart from the Donna season). I think Chibs might get a bit of a reassessment as time goes on and more credit for the audacity of what he did with the Doctor’s past.

 

But yes, there was so much to play with. I’m left hoping that this wasn’t the hinted biggest bad after all.

[UNITPICKER @unitpicker]

I always felt Moffat was the king of providing unsatisfactory reveals to season long mystery boxes. Yet with the Ruby’s mother outcome, RTD surpassed even Hell Bent’s ‘The Hybrid’ reveal in sheer “Alan Partridge nonplussed shrug meme” factor.

I’ll be the first to say that given the show has leant way too much into cosmically significant companions since 2005, having Ruby just be ordinary isn’t a bad idea in isolation. However, to build the story of her and her mother as a huge cosmic mystery that scared and confused Gods and monsters only to then have it revealed as something fairly mundane was always going to fall flat. They had limitless possibilities and yet went for a reveal that wouldn’t even pass muster as an Eastenders cliffhanger.

I guess maybe the 73 yards antics were Sutekh related, needing the Doctor back in order to keep helping him travel around space and time to grow his powers. If not then what was older Ruby saying to scare people so dramatically?

There is the lingering Mrs Flood mystery box to open later. I have a horrible feeling that they don’t yet know who she is and will make it up as they go along.

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@thane16 @whohar @blenkinsopthebrave

So are we agreed, the problem is the art not the arc?

Well, we don’t know what the arc is yet… but to quote the easter egg from Blink AGAIN… that (EoD) got away from him.

Or is it the new demographic and paymasters? I hate  the idea of The Unit spinoff. Sorry.

Justified criticism… death – death = life. Well basically this is a big reset button in demonic dog form. So, been done before. Been done by Moff, several times. Maybe we’ve been watching NuWho too long. A new generation needs to engage with facile metaphysics and expensive CGI.

Related gripe… big meh story… the earth should be room enough. The original Sutekh just wanted to KILL ALL HUMANS. Maybe Russ supersized the threat, maybe that’s VR.

Problematic criticism. Ruby is ordinary. Ruby is emblematic of The Doctor. And she is a standing criticism of him. The Doctor despised his people. Didn’t he? With good reason. He turned his back on his family – yes they were timey wimey and never there, but surely he has given up on them… and Gallifrey too easily? He was actually going to use The Moment to destroy them.

If Ruby can change his mindset, she is EXTRAORDINARY. But is she VR? Actually, ordinary Ruby with her ordinary mum and the healing (hopefully) is the best bit. I can forgive the all the nonsense on that basis. Did someone say The Doctor almost ghosts Ruby at the end?; he knows what the deal is. She has her family and is going to leave, and he is alone. What will he do?

The arc is VR. The VR is created by someone who knows The Doctor as well as they know themself (is that really a word? Spellcheck says good!) Who did it with the Matrix many years ago… or in the future. If we’re confused, blame it on The Ultimate Foe. We were all confused.

Why does Ruby snow? The VR snows. Someone else was known for snow. REG in the scan. Big flake at the end of Boom. But no little ice crystal teeth… not yet. Timey wimey.

In short, it’s not as tight as RTD’s previous series. Still far more watchable than Zchib, which you might say doesn’t mean much because it was mostly unwatchable.

I think he’s been influenced by Moff, and perhaps that is a reaction to Zchib, too. But maybe he’s not up to this style. It does worry me that the Christmas Special is supposedly Moff’s last hurrah (surely not). The only other writer in his class was Mathieson… but is he Disney friendly? There will be other writers I know.

[syzygy @thane16]

@ps1l0v3y0u

I think the false face REG lookalike Doc in Rogue could be successfully utilised at any time? And wasn’t it Moff’s last hurrah in 2016 too? I’m sure he’ll come back unless he has more writing for BBC or HBO to do?

God yeah, “the earth should be …enough.”
RTD loves reality bombs, end of universes, outside of universes, cyber men AND daleks etc etc. Maybe it was time to put dog on a leash? – which I have to say was very funny.

I’m not sure how copyright works in telly. Maybe those with education can tell me? If a story is written by …. (Insert name) then can anyone use snow, for example & have it linked to, say, REG in The Snowmen Xmas special with Matt Smith, without series legal issues? Q

It’s a bit like those hoping for River. She had a fantastic end with CapDoc… it’s over! And that’s a good thing. There are others.. Well, God, I sure hope so.

So I really don’t think they’d bring a low level baddie like that back? After all, 20-somethings were all “WHO?” when Sutekh returned.

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@ps1l0v3y0u

The arc is VR. The VR is created by someone who knows The Doctor as well as they know themself…

Why does Ruby snow? The VR snows…

I really like this theory – which might lead to the Great Intelligence, as others have previously theorised, given the snow connection. Or alternatively to a Time Lord using a grand-scale version of The Matrix, as you say.

I also like our other hive-mind theory that in the “mavity” universe, fantasy and reality have been bleeding together, which is why goblins and the Snow Queen are showing up in Doctor Who, why the Doctor is Willy Wonka crossed with Peter Pan, and why Ruby can manifest snow and a “Memory TARDIS” in reality just by wishing hard enough.

I haven’t given up @thane16 on our conviction that the Doctor’s tears mean something, other than just that this incarnation is less emotionally constipated than earlier ones.

In the Grimm fairy tale, The Goose Girl at the Well, a youngest daughter is cast out by her father the King because he demands that each of his daughters tell him how much they love him and she says she loves him as much as salt (which he miscontrues, because salt is ordinary, but of course it’s also essential for life). She is exiled to the forest and cries tears which become pearls (and which help her become independently wealthy, ergo free of her father’s control later) and she is helped by a witch:

https://www.grimmstories.com/en/grimm_fairy-tales/the_goose_girl_at_the_well

The Doctor has been (as far as he knows) abandoned by his birth parents and treated horribly by his wicked adoptive mother Tecteun, so he’s very much a lost child in a fairytale at the moment…

Mrs. Flood is definitely rather witchy…

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

Also – “there’s always a twist at the end” and Moffat has written the Christmas special…

So my guess is – yes, it’s true that Ruby is an ordinary person with ordinary parents which fits with RTD’s very wonderful recurring message for Doctor Who about how every ordinary person is valuable and meaningful.

However, it’s also going to be the case that there’s a “twist” to come…

 

[TheConsultant @theconsultant]

First episode was weak, last episode was poor verging on unacceptable.

What’s the snow about?

Why does a god want to know the name of a single mum?

The whole thing felt crammed, and illogical. Frankly the tom baker encounter with Set is still superior.

Acting is great for me the story writer needs replacement and please can we loose the music playing all the time it’s soooo annoying

The plot with ruby I felt was rewritten to take her out with a mum reunion. I suspect another ending was planned.

Great TARDIS great actors all round aside from the token disabled child thrown in to meet a quota of some sort I guess? Stories 73 yards was great…I want to watch this but really it’s to tight on its story, nothing hangs together between….I miss an episodic approach

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@juniperfish @thane16 – he looked in pain when Ruby left – but was he crying? I’m not sure there were tears.

I think somebody has said here that this Doctor hasn’t shown the kind of awe inspiring anger that some of the last Doctors have, there is an outside chance that a Doctor might be too  well adjusted – or alternatively, we’re just not used to one who’s sorted his baggage out. Or, on the other hand, he doesn’t quite have balance yet. He went through instant attraction through come away and travel with me (understandable, Rogue was entirely his type, type being: River (tending towards the amoral but also acts of terrifying devotion)  to ‘it’s very sad he’s gone but I have to keep moving forward’. You’ve got to not brood on your pain but you’ve not to avoid it.

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@theconsultant I don’ love this episode, but I think the point with the god was, he couldn’t see her. He assumed she must be incredibly significant and important for that to be the case. And she was, but just to Ruby.

[Cath Annabel @cathannabel]

@miapatrick Exactly! He couldn’t see her, therefore he feared her, as a potential ‘rogue’ element that could sabotage his plan. So he was thwarted by his lack of understanding of the species he was about to destroy, to whom ordinariness can be extraordinary.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@thane16 @juniperfish

The arc has been seeded with clues. Too many. We’re all over them and that’s what Russ wanted… but does that make for good art?

It’s like Line of Duty and morse code. The problem with the ‘in show solution’ and the obvious solution have hamstrung the narrative a bit.
As it happens there’s not enough information to predict what happens at Christmas or next year.</p>
But certain things cannot be accidental. No one, no one is called Roger ap William… so it must be significant. If he was Bill Probert he’d be ‘crazy hat mega star’ or just a guy called Bill, but no, he’s ‘big spear crazy hat’ because his name is given in the medieval form, but he’s also elected in 2046. There is a crown that accesses The Matrix and a rod that controls The Eye of Harmony.

Little girls (I’m afraid) have flower names or goddess names; Splice is downright weird in a culture that seems to place emphasis on religion.

River a low level baddie? She very nearly terminally killed him with a kiss. That’s bad and it ain’t a boring meh death of reality. My Kind of Woild! as the Loon would say. But River left 1969 as a tittle girl. Presumably Kovarian told her she could regenerate but we don’t know what else she knew about The Doctor or what she was supposed to be doing. With the disruption the Moon landing caused to The Silence, we don’t know if Kovarian was in control until later.

What River certainly had, is another stolen childhood. Did the Doctor love her for what she was or will be?; Russ may need to spell out this is not complicated sympathy. Lets Kill Hitler was difficult on many levels. Is this arc a Fix It Fic???

Not sure how she knew about Sutekh though… unless she wasn’t talking about him, but someone else.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@miapatrick @cathannabel

He couldn’t see her, therefore he feared her, as a potential ‘rogue’ element that could sabotage his plan.

True, but in the population of Earth, let alone in the universe as a whole, how many people are mysteries to themselves and others, so why was it Ruby alone whom Sutekh couldn’t see?  Was it the additional fact that she was travelling with the Doctor which imbued her mystery with unique significance in his eyes?

@juniperfish

RTD’s very wonderful recurring message for Doctor Who about how every ordinary person is valuable and meaningful.

That, I think, was certainly the message that he wanted us to take away from the episode. The problem, for me at least, was that after all the previous build up which misled us into thinking Ruby must be special in an extraordinary, possibly timey or extra-terrestrial way, and overpowered by the apocalyptic events earlier in the episode, it fell rather flat.

 

[Mudlark @mudlark]

Mrs Flood’s Snow Queen get up at the end suggests that she may play a bigger part in events in the Christmas episode, and given Moffat’s record in basing Christmas specials on what could loosely be termed fairy stories, maybe we should expect a Hans Andersen theme.

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@mudlark my impression was that it was Ruby’s mother who he couldn’t see – this mysterious hooded person in the video that was projected into the room.

[WolvesAreRunning @wolvesarerunning]

Well like many on here, I watched that episode with a sinking feeling. I’m not normally someone who talks to their TV, but even I found myself muttering ‘no no no’ as the Doctor screamed into space, blaming himself for something he had no control over. I mean, surely for that emotion to land he had to have actually done something wrong? Ignored some clear warning sign that the Lord of Death was hitching a ride? But there wasn’t one, as far as I could see, so he just came across as self-absorbed. It made me think of the 11th’s tears in A Good Man Goes to War. Moffat spent a season and a half building up to those, to make them feel warranted.

But I think my hopes finally settled on the sea floor when we learnt Ruby’s mother is a nurse living in Coventry. I don’t mind that as an idea (even though, if AI did an RTD script, that’s what it would come up with), but it was done in such a lazy way. There was no moment where you’re confronted with your own preconceptions. No moment where you’re made to realise you hadn’t thought a nurse from Coventry could be special. In fact, we were actively steered in the wrong direction – because what 15 year old was wearing a hooded cloak in 2004?? What young mother names her child by turning dramatically and pointing to a road sign? It just smacks of a writer trying to have their cake and eat it. On the one hand, they spice their scripts with all sorts of intriguing, mysterious moments, and on the other they say ‘ha! Gotcha! It’s actually the ordinary that’s extraordinary!’ Well, if that’s the case, don’t spend a whole series leaning on the mystery to keep viewers’ interest! It just comes across as a bit preachy and trite.

And I know this sounds harsh. I feel bad for writing it. But the reason I’m so disappointed is the RTD is such a fantastic writer. It’s a Sin is one of THE great series. And 73 Yards pulled off the amazing feat of overshadowing a Who episode penned by Moffat. But that just makes me annoyed all over again, because what explanation were we given for how Old Ruby went back in time? Or what she said (or was) to make everyone desert her? Just a throwaway line about how strange things can be seen at 73 yards?? That’s it?! Come on.

And actually, that highlights the core problem with not giving satisfying explanations for things like this – it tarnishes the stories. Not just the ones already gone, but the ones to come as well. Because next time there’s an episode like 73 Yards, I’ll know not to invest much time thinking about it too deeply, because the writer himself probably won’t have! (I know, I know, not everyone places importance on the same things.)

But I want to end on a more positive note, because up until Empire of Death, I really enjoyed the series. I watched the first two episodes with my five year old son, which is something I’ve been looking forward to for years. He loved Space Babies and we watched it together four times. And he’s now also developed a deep suspicion of pianos after watching The Devil’s Chord. Surely a rite of passage for any Whovian – developing an irrational fear of an everyday object, whether it’s pepper pots, statues, etc!

And just one final thing, to finish a train of thought. I loved the scene in Empire of Death with the mother in the tent. It almost seemed dropped in from another, better episode. An episode more confident and sure-footed in what needs explaining and what doesn’t. Because I didn’t need to know anything more about that mother, or her family, or her life. It was a fleeting, poignant glimpse, much as things are in real life. Not everything in a story needs an explanation (see Alien compared to Prometheus for proof of that!) But what you shouldn’t do is build your story around a mystery, and then offer no satisfying explanation. That’s just mis-selling.

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@mudlark

The problem, for me at least, was that after all the previous build up which misled us into thinking Ruby must be special in an extraordinary, possibly timey or extra-terrestrial way, and overpowered by the apocalyptic events earlier in the episode, it fell rather flat.

Yes, I did think it would have been awesome if Ruby’s eyes had turned into glowing eyes of Horus and her skin had blushed gold and she’d taken the Doctor by the hand and said, “I’ve been shadow-possessing this child in preparation for a long time. The Osirans have come to sort out your monumental screw-up – what the hell have you been doing carting my evil brother-uncle Sutekh about the universe in your space/time machine, allowing him to spread his sands of death, you idiot!”

However, I’m touched by Ruby’s (apparent) ordinaryness (I’m still suspicious about a twist at the end regarding her identity) and I think this is because RTD2 and Moffat have a bit of a rivalry over their visions of Nu Who.

RTD1’s companions – Rose, Martha, Donna, have been ordinary people, from clearly marked working-class/ modest backgrounds, particularly Rose (shop-girl) and Donna (temp). Martha is a bit more ambiguous as she’s at Medical School, a place of social mobility.

Moffat’s have been – mystery women – The Girl Who Waited (Amy), The Mysterious Woman (River), The Impossible Girl (Clara) and have not been depicted as coming from the British working-classes in the same way.

With Ruby, RTD is returning to his kitchen-sink drama roots, which is part of his political vision for Dr. Who – to make sure that what makes the Doctor a wonderful kind of hero, in his era, is that he isn’t snobby or classist (although he comes from Patrician class on Gallifrey) but that he champions ordinary people, seeing the imaginative potential in everyone, whereever they are in the hierarchy of their society.

[WolvesAreRunning @wolvesarerunning]

@juniperfish

Yes, I agree with this. And I don’t want to sound too harsh in my previous post. My main takeaway from this series is that it felt like proper Doctor Who. Monsters and scares, limitless possibility and a good heart. I just think someone needed to ask RTD to give more thought to certain elements of his scripts. And by the way, I completely understand what he and Moffat always say about Doctor Who – that it’s the hardest show on television to write. Because you need to be good at everything – emotion, comedy, drama, plotting, etc.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@thane16

sorry meant to say this earlier. Copyright in Who… there were problems with Daleks in the sixties. Terry Nation wanted to sell them to the states, but maybe they weren’t commie enough.

Jonathon Nathan Turner was anxious to shed Nyssa because he had to pay royalties everytime she appeared. I suspect she was originally going to become an android in Four til Doomsday. But Davison decreed she must stay or he would be listening to Tegan forever (JNT needed to sell Who down under)

The GI was Haisman and Lincoln. The GI stories are classics. Then they wrote The Dominators and weren’t asked back.

Moff riffed hard on GI, why shouldn’t RTD? Not sure Pip and Jane Baker or the Holmes estate owns V man. Do you think I need to ‘linx’ that to rest of my theory?

 

 

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@miapatrick

… it was Ruby’s mother who he couldn’t see

Yes, now that you point it out. I suppose my mind was wandering down another path and interpreting ‘see’ in a much wider sense. But why, among all the other mothers who have abandoned their babies or given them up for adoption and whose children have since tried and failed to find them, was her identity so important to Sutekh? The answer, or so we were told, was because it was important to Ruby, which implies that the identity of Ruby herself was an unresolved enigma and therefore an obstacle to him, as it was for Maestro also.

@juniperfish

Your alternative scenario with Ruby manifesting as the eye of Horus would indeed have been wonderful and much more satisfying.  I agree that the more mundane and low key story of Ruby finding and being reunited with her birth parents was touching in itself, but as a kind of afterword to all that thunder and spectacle it lacked the impact that it might have had in another context.

@wolvesarerunning

What young mother names her child by turning dramatically and pointing to a road sign?

To make it even more unlikely and confusing, she did so only in the ‘remembered’ scenes in the Time Window, and in that case, who or what was doing the remembering and who did she think was there to see? The Doctor said that he didn’t think she was aware of him or Ruby watching her.   In the original sequence of events as shown in The Church on Ruby Road there is no evidence that she witnessed the arrival of the Doctor or anything of the events which followed immediately after, because by that time she was already well past that point, walking away in the distance.

Now for a little nit picking if you will indulge me.  The setting is presumably supposed to be urban, and in the context of a heavily built up district or suburb a street with a relatively modern name such as Ruby Road is not unlikely, and nor is a Victorian or modern church on such a road. However, for all that they attempted to create the impression of such a setting – and the fact that they were shooting the scenes at night helped – they couldn’t entirely disguise the fact that the church and pub were surrounded by trees and bushes and fields. The church was/is medieval with perhaps some Victorian restoration work on the tower ( I had a good look at the stonework and so can vouch for this), and where there is a medieval church in existence, even if it has been engulfed by later buildings, the road on which it stands will almost invariably be called Church Road or Church Lane, or else named after the saint to whom the church is dedicated.

My apologies. I will now go away and do penance for my pedantry, but I’m sensitive to this kind of topographical detail.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

Perhaps this has been answered above (if so, apologies), but if Ruby’s mother points at the road sign as a way of naming her, who is aware enough of this to have it put on her birth certificate?

Watched “The Giggle” again last night and it shows that RTD2 can write an excellent episode if he wants to. Which make “Empire of Death” even more inexplicable.

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@blenkinsopthebrave

No. Not answered. Most things to do with the Time Window seem utterly baffling.

Either:

it’s a coincidence. High % chance she would be named Ruby by whoever. Did we get the name of the church? If it was All Saints, she could have been Nic Shaz Nat Mel Sunday.

or they made it up to be nice to Ruby, she was actually pointing to something else

or she was pointing at the sign to someone invisible who then did the certificate

or she was pointing at it to The Doctor after all, but he was too dumb to realise.

But pointing at a sign called Ruby might have worried Sutekh because the Eye of Horus in PoM was a ruby.

I suspect the story may have been rewritten and fell apart in his hands guvnor.

Good moments, bad set up. 5 out of 8 (Babies and Chord were serviceable) scrapes you a lower second Mr Davies, which will get you a job on The Coal Board.

 

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@blenkinsopthebrave

As  @ps1l0v3y0u  says, there is no answer; in fact nothing adds up in terms of the explanation offered. Who attaches a road sign to a lamp post on the premises of a pub, anyway? (For the record, I checked all the scenes in the Time Window where the lamp post is visible and, although the images aren’t exactly crystal clear, there is nowhere the slightest indication of anything attached to it. For what my opinion is worth, I still think that she was pointing at the Doctor or the Tardis. Perhaps the VHS recording had changed again to tease and mislead.

If what we saw in The Church on Ruby Road was an accurate depiction of what happened on that Christmas Eve 2005, then there was no indication that the woman in the caped hood saw the Doctor at any point, or even that she noticed the kerfuffle with the goblins. She was already far along the road and past the church by the time he arrived on the scene. Nor  was there evidence of anyone else around, either then or in the Time Window, so it looked as if  the alternative version of the woman, the one in the Time Window who stopped and pointed, whether at the Doctor, the Tardis or the Road sign, was aware of the Doctor and Ruby and other witnesses from the future. otherwise why point?

The discrepancies in the sequence of events shown in the Time Window must be deliberate and significant, in fact the Doctor noted and was puzzled by them.   Maybe someone or something was tampering with the memories and thus with the past, but until it is all accounted for, Ruby’s story is not done.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

I know it is highly unlikely to happen, but I do hope  that RTD2 has second thoughts about all the magic malarky.

I confess that I do not really want to see fairies on Who (except, perhaps, the Cottingley Fairies). An episode where the Doctor has to break it to Conan Doyle that he was duped sounds pretty great to me.

But alas, I fear I may be waiting a long time.

 

[VickyMallard @vickymallard]

Hm. After all this hoo-ha, and the absolute gripping last episode, I found this one rather anticlimactic. Or at least not what I had expected. It did have nice moments and twists – I liked Mel becoming “evil”, for example. Regarding the plt, I got a bit lost. The Doctor, Mel and Ruby travelled in… what exactly? A Tardis materialising from the memories of all timelord incarnations? I loved that set, I have to say, even if I only recognised a few very iconic bits and pieces. I loved how Mel reacted to the costumes of “her” Doctors, up to the point of cuddling with the sweater. And even though it was rather cramped, I actually liked it a lot more than the current modern Tardis.

Other than that… hm. That big Death Cloud wiping out all of the universe (or whatever is left of it after the Flux (?) ) offered some nice scenes, yes – like the Doctor once again screaming and crying about the devastation he has brought over everyone he meets, and I also liked Kate Lethbridge-Steward’s “signing off”. But overall that whole bit didn’t captivate me at all, because it was clear that the episode would not end with everyone being dead. I also found it rather unrealistic that everyone is desperately trying to escape that cloud, all roads jammed, etc., but the litte orange scooter just miraculously escapes. Sure. (Also, where did that second helmet come from? Mel opens the seat and hands one to the Doctor – but is suddenly wearing one herself?). When I saw the Death Cloud in the trailer, I have to admit I was a bit sceptical how they would plausibly keep the Fourteenth Doctor out of it. I mean, I am very happy for him to be in retirement, but if he were aware of imminent destruction of London, there is no way he would stay in Chiswick with Donna (neither would her, especially not with Rose at Unit). But it seemed to be a rather quick and sudden development, so I’m good with that.

I don’t know much about the time vortex yet, so I didn’t really get that “dragging Sutek on a leash” through it. But whatever that was, it was cancelling out the Death Wave. And after the “leash” was cut, Sutek sort of exploded… because he wasn’t connected to the Tardis any more? Can you kill a God of Death? You certainly can’t kill Death. (Okay, Sutek wasn’t Death itself, I guess, because people were still dying while he was exiled. I’ll have to rewatch, I guess).

Ruby’s mother was an ordinary person and Sutek only didn’t kill Ruby because in her mind, her mother was such a big mystery? I think I got lost somewhere along the way. I didn’t really get that memory/reality thing anyway. Also that mother who gave the Doctor the spoon – how did the Doctor find her? And how has she been surviving all on her own in that devastation? That whole subplot didn’t make much sense to me other than “okay, now the Doctor has obtained a metal object”. I smiled a bit when – after the grand finale – all the planet started to come back and the Doctor mentioned some of them (the Ood sphere! I love the Ood!) but actually not Skaro. But I guess it came back just like everything else.

What else was there… We still don’t know who Mrs. Flood is, and she predicts that the Doctor’s story will end terribly (or whatever her exact words were). The Unit soldier and Kate were holding hands. What was that thing with the lamppost?! Ruby is named Ruby because her mother pointed to the roadsign? That made no sense to me whatsoever, because… who saw her pointing? If I remember correctly, she was found by someone from the Church and was then named because it was the Church on Ruby Road. How could whoever named her know that her mother had ever pointed to that sign? Did I miss something? Anyway, her poor father is in for the shock of lifetime now, I guess, if Real Mum never even told him she was pregnant.

And next season we’ll get a new companion – and I do hope we get more storylines like 73 Yards and Boom and The Legend of Ruby Sunday, and less singing and goblins and babies. Let the adventures continue!

[WhoHar @whohar]

@wolvesarerunning

I loved the scene in Empire of Death with the mother in the tent.

Hands down the best scene in the ep imo.

One other thing, I don’t think has been mentioned yet. Wasn’t Ruby’s father called Garnet? Could just be RTD being playful, but Ruby and Garnet? Seems like it could / should have additional meaning.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@mudlark @blenkinsopthebrave

Profiles of the Future: Arthur C Clarke’s 3rd Law…

‘Any sufficiently advanced technology is inextinguishable from magic’

…apparently.

The Time Window was tampered with…? Mmmm. We know someone who likes to mess around with that stuff, don’t we children? TUF guy. V. Mysterious. Could Warp your Mind! In fact the last Loon got his crucial Timelord damning information from this very reprobate’s old stamping ground.

btw… was it ever established, before he became The Toy Maker’s tooth, where The Last Loon stood with regards to Missy or Skeletor? Timey Wimey. If he predates Anthony Ainley, then he might not have known what lurks in The Matrix.

One way of rewriting Zchib I suppose.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@blenkinsopthebrave

I do not really want to see fairies on Who

I’m similarly minded. Although wasn’t there a Torchwood episode with evil fae in it? I may have imagined this…

And, as @ps1l0v3y0u mentioned previously, I’d also prefer more science in the Sci-Fi part of Who. I also would like to see less of the romance angle unless it can be worked well into the plot. It’s been a bit overdone in recent seasons IMHO.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@thane16

I really, really would’ve liked the carol to have been used a little more.

Yes. It’s a great piece. Probably better for the Christmas episode though. Don’t give up hope yet.

[bunface @bunface]

The comments have been excellent, and I feel like there’s a collective attempt to come to terms with this episode! Which means it has some value?

I’m actually feeling so upset/angry I couldn’t speak yesterday. Thanks to everyone for eloquently expressing what I’m feeling! Even now I can’t really think. But a few people puzzled about the pointing at the sign leading to the naming leads me to think (with others) that:

Ruby’s REAL REAL VR FAERY mum or otherworld version of human mum (or Other? – not necessarily Mum? – ) cast a spell by pointing at the sign.

Ruby’s human Mum may have left her at the Church, but the pointing figure isn’t her, that’s an overlaid version. Humum may have been there at a different time altogether, or if the same night  she’s wearing a hoodie like all teens do…

So basically the 73 yards world coexists in the same video tape, and the humum and the faery ‘other mum’ appear at once. Which accounts for the same but different feelings of the Time Window scenes.

This all suggests:

Ruby will be back, probably to save the Doctor from witchy poo Flood at Christmas (which would be very Moffat, making her a mysterious girl after all). Maybe she’s both human and faery after all, which extends or reaffirms the theme of ordinary/extraordinary depending on what you see and what bubble you exist in.

Also, very interested in your thoughts @thane16 about concise writing and, basically, the way we read or are being asked to put stories together. Hopefully I can get my head together to discuss further!

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@wolvesarerunning I feel like I’m defending an episode I was pretty disappointed with but here’s the thing – when pictures of Ruby’s mother popped up by instinctive, instant reaction was ‘oh, she looks so ordinary’. And RTD did, as you say, troll the hell out of us with possibilities. The woman in the tent, no one can’t convince me that wasn’t a bit of misdirection when the Doctor turns up – is that baby Ruby? Is she the hooded figure or is it the Doctor after all? Ruby was set up as another impossible girl. But I respect the ordinary twist (I was disappointed by Ray Palpatine in another franchise). I like the idea of the companions not having a wild, impressive origin.

 

@mudlark see above, but, I think it’s because he was in the Time window with them, and that’s why he encountered Ruby’s mother, and it was so strange that he couldn’t see her.

@whohar,@blenkinsopthebrave sentimentalised post-Victorian Fairies, no, me neither. But Elves handled like Terry Pratchett handled them….

“Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.
No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.”

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar

see Spoilers for my comment re Mr Garnett.

More science… in general ‘smaller’ is better. Mainly in terms of threat. But science too. If you decide to go with speculative theoretical physics ok. But make it tight. Black Hole Information Paradox: show me what it means! Your challenge for next season Russ!

Even the maligned ‘Babies’ and ‘Chord’ contain some nice science: our ‘population’ issues are solvable scientifically, it’s just dogmatic people who are a problem; music is hard wired into mammalian brains, what does that mean for us, and they way we think?

Fantasy: I’m in two minds because I used to really love fantasy. But not what has been done with it. There again, I don’t (please don’t burn me at the stake) like Star Wars much. That’s sci fi gone mainstream. Stadium. Plastic. Not that real sci fi is great on characters or emotional connection. But neither is Star Wars really. Too big. Too Manichaean. The midichlorians are VERY silly.

I hate most of what Jackson has done to Tolkien. Can’t watch it anymore. I DON’T insist that the result be ‘just like the book’, but I dislike aggressively story-boarded films. Film is a series of images, but image should not damage the structure of the narrative. In the words of my old creative writing tutor (a bit of a twit but this was a good point), ‘the narrative is what you eat.’

I’m stating the obvious, but fantasy tends to the Manichaean, allegorical, simplistic and/or (GoT stylee) sadisticly misogynistic. I used to rail that no one has ever made a successful attempt to interpret LeGuin’s Earthsea but, really, thank goodness. I don’t really want to see more fantasy in WHO but I admit the show has always existed at the squidgy end of soft sci fi.

I keep hoping for some kind of science with my VR speculation. The romance content is acceptable. The ‘I’m a crazy alien, mad me!’ schtick was wearing a bit thin. Didn’t believe it. The Doctor is obviously an emotional being and drawn to humanity.

@miapatrick

Elves are NOT nice. They’re not human; there is an absence of human ‘good.’ But The Doctor is also alien. Why is he not an ‘elvish wight’?
<p style=”text-align: left;”>But yes it’s partly a kid’s program. No paving slabs please.</p>
@wolvesarerunning

the woman in the tent scene was SO strong… what we see on nearly every news broadcast. Makes you wonder if that came first and the rest was cobbled together to make it work.

 

 

[WhoHar @whohar]

@miapatrick
I’d not seen that Pratchett-ism before, although I am no expert. I keep meaning to read Discworld but there’s so much of it, I’m not sure where to start.

@ps1l0v3y0u
Another writer! I liked Jackson’s LOTR but hated The Hobbit. But even the Hobbit is genius when placed next to that Amazon atrocity.

And, yeah, agree that Who has never been anywhere close to hard sci-fi really, but it has leaned into the fantasy element more and more as the show has progressed.

At the end of the day, if the stories are good and have good internal logic, I’m happy. I think a series of Who based on English, Welsh or Irish folk horror would be epic, but I do love The Daemons.

Btw, what was that Welsh (?) folk text you previously mentioned on another thread?

@bunface

I like the two mums theory. However, if RTD does pull something out of the bag next season, I’ll still be annoyed. Cake and eat it comes to mind. I think that the main threads for a season should be wrapped up in that season. I don’t mind some side threads being carried over (e.g. Flood). I don’t know that Christmas will change the narrative all that much because:

1. Moffat us writing it and wouldn’t unilaterally undermine the whole of RTDs season.

2. Christmas eps tend to be standalone and a bit fluffy.

But I’ve been wrong before. Many times.

 

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@whohar oh that is a matter of great debate! most people agree that Night Watch is hands down his best work, but it works better with the context of the earlier watch books, feelings are very mixed about the first few novels, wars break out about standalone v particular series (the witches, industrial revolution, wizards, DEATH, the Watch). Just don’t mention the Night Watch series, it’s the only point at which the fans turn violent. His earliest works are basically having affectionate fun with fantasy tropes, by the end it’s social commentary. He’s very much a writer who evolved as he was writing. You might like one phase and dislike the later.

[bunface @bunface]

@whohar

I suppose I’m still reading this as a series that discusses (if that’s not too generous a term!) the interplay of ‘fantasy’ and ‘reality’, or ‘ordinary’ and ‘extraordinary’ across every episode. Except that I think there wasn’t time to bring it together, to expand it enough, to realise a full villain, so we ended up with a botched oh that will do for now, quick get Sutekh out of the way because he’s just a bit of throwback nostalgia no more important than the myriad other references to Who and other TV/film/stories, including the ‘cultural appropriation’ of Egyptian mythology. Yes, the whole point being that all our lovely memories create the everlasting life that will defeat death…

And no doubt the Enemies of the Arts in the current cultural war.

You may be right that that’s as far as it goes. That basically the point has been made in this episode that these days fantasy and reality are more clearly the same thing (arguably always have been, but I don’t really want to get into a postmodern showdown) and that the ‘kids’ don’t worry about it but just accept that we are our memories and fantasies, and that if we cosplay (physically or mentally) as the Doctor(s) we are the Doctor(s).

But with the Flood coda there’s obviously some more to say on the idea that at the same moment as we’re all being ordinary we’re simultaneously living in our imaginations, our bubbles, and the unsatisfactory lack of resolution to do with Ruby here could be nicely realised in a Christmas special, where Christmas is all about ‘magic’ (especially in Disneyland) and the extraordinary and ordinary/domestic coming together. Far from undermining RTD, that would reinforce the whole series and this sort of challenge is right up Moffat’s street.

Let’s face it, it takes him to sort out and refine RTD’s chaos. He’s cleverer, and a fantasy/reality/AI/VR theme needs clever.

And it can still be heartwarming and Christmassy! Double win.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar

I’m sure that would be the Mabinogion. Not that I am an expert but comparative analysis of Welsh and Irish myth is insightful.

I was musing on the power of 3 during the discussion on Dot and Bubble. That it’s problematical to say 3 is necessarily significant because it has become its own trope.

The Celts seemed to need to be told something 3 times (in triads interestingly!) before they would admit it was real.

 

[bunface @bunface]

Oh, I do keep wanting to say that I find the death of death thing intensely maddening. Not only because, as others have said, it’s nonsensical, but beyond that I find any cultural inability to accept death offensive and troubling. So it alarms me that RTD seems to be pushing the idea that we can all live forever, even if he means through imagination and art and memory.

Even then, everything’s a beach in the end, even memories. That was clear in the woman in a tent scene. I guess she ensured that memory/life persisted by giving the Doctor the Spoon of Memory, but I still have a problem with death being seen as a Bad Thing that needs reversing per se. Ideologically, it bothers me.

 

 

[WhoHar @whohar]

@miapatrick

Thanks for the tips. So basically anywhere, as long as you pick a series. But Night Watch, I’ll start there.

@ps1l0v3y0u

Mabinogion

Ah yes. Thanks. I’ll check it out. Probably some crossover with Irish tales, of which I have a reference text.

And I saw your comment on the other thread:

Alf Garnett. Alien Life Form Garnett? Hmmm.

@bunface

Far from undermining RTD, that would reinforce the whole series and this sort of challenge is right up Moffat’s street.

Agreed. But RTD is showrunner, so what he says takes precedent. And I can’t imagine a showrunner’s ego will let that happen.

[bunface @bunface]

can’t imagine a showrunner’s ego will let that happen.

@whohar

On behalf of RTD…

Ouch!

😂

 

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