8 May 2017 at 00:09 #57235
Clara would make sense, but so would Ashildr. You all know I believe her to be the Nightmare Child, so it wouldn’t surprise me. The writers are certainly trying to set it up to be the Master in our minds, I just have a hard time from experience believing it would be that obvious. I believe Clara ends up trapped in a Dalek in the Cloisters, so I don’t believe her story is at done, or her Nightmare Child partner’s. Still don’t understand why Ashildr is wearing Clara’s mom clothes in that one screen shot. Something is undone here, that’s my instinct.8 May 2017 at 00:15 #57236Anonymous @
Thinking thinking: Fur Elise. A call back to the Bootstrap Paradox wherein the Doctor “goes back to Beethoven” and Beethoven copies out the sheet music: “this didn’t happen” says the Doctor during that particular episode. I think it was Listen….
Still, Beethoven died about 40 years before Fur Elise or Fur Therese was published and there’s quite some gossip about whether it was written for an ‘Elise’ or -according to a Nohl, an annoying musicologist (ahem) – the title actually read ‘therese’ and not ‘Elise’ which, knowing Beethoven’s hand writing of titles, isn’t a likely mistake (he was relatively neat). Still, a simple piece and possibly also written for a friend of Beethoven’s -an Elizabeth Rockel, who was oftentimes known simply as ‘Elise’.
So, in the Vault is a paradox, in my opinion….Clue being the bootstrap paradox.
I’m more thrilled with the episode than I was twice around but Thane hung his head. Subtlety doesn’t get him. Or he it. 🙂8 May 2017 at 00:20 #57237Anonymous @
Ah, so you think Clara is not where we think, still? In the Doctor’s mind she’s out there having adventures but she’s still stuck in someplace nasty?
Oh no! I hope not, I thought that was dispatched with relative ease?
Puro8 May 2017 at 00:37 #57238Anonymous @
Clara in the cloisters?
Are there daleks in the cloisters? There are ghostly impressions of them and the cloisters contain the ‘walkers’ (that’s my term, anyway, for dead and gone TLs). Do you mean at the end of The Witches Familiar when Missy locks her in and the Doctor pulls the connectors away and says: “don’t know if there’s any long term affects”?
This is interesting. I remember that. So, everything else contains the Doctor believing Clara is next to him, when he’s dreaming -or hoping?
Mmm, dunno. I thought it was pretty wrapped up in Face the Raven and the point of Heaven/Bent was to extract Clara from the second before her death ??
Which he did. The memory wipe taken by the Doctor was then used as a parallel to the ‘Donna Incident’ & then in The Pilot we were reminded again via “I know a mind wipe when I see one” (Bill) together with Clara’s theme.
@mudlark You’ve got knowledge about ‘bugs’ !! Yes, that makes perfect sense. The dryads are evil (sort of) interplanetary wood lice (actually, they’re just doing what they’re supposed to be doing).
Interesting that they responded to the ‘A’ note on the tuning fork. Much like the Rondo (Fur Elise) which is also in a (min).
I know, rambling, and making connections where there are none. Gotta have some fun.
Loved the phrase by the Doctor:
“info dump and busk”
Puro8 May 2017 at 01:03 #57239RorySmith @rorysmith
Another thing that sticks out for me is Peter’s accent has been stronger this series.
I’m American so the stronger Scott accent is a little harder for me to understand. His accent is as strong as Michelle Gomez’s. Another clue to me that we have been watching the Master having adventures and going back to the vault to brag to the Doctor.8 May 2017 at 01:12 #57240IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant
There was far too much emotional punch invested in Clara’s not-quite-death and the Doctor’s auto-mind-wipe for that to be retconned. Do not believe for a second that Moffat would go there. also, I am pretty sure we would have heard if Maisie Williams was coming back. If she is, and they have kept that secret, I will be delightedly gobsmacked.
All we really know is this:
1. It is someone who is annoyed at being cooped up, but doesn’t appear to be trying to escape;
2. The Doctor does not fear her/ him/ it.
Everything else is Moffat going “Look at the shiny! Look at the shiny!”8 May 2017 at 01:44 #57242tardigrade @tardigrade
I enjoyed this as a standalone story. I actually got a strong vibe of an old X-Files standalone episode, more so than of BG Who (as one or two people mentioned). And David Suchet was of course a brilliant choice for his role and he more than made up for one or two less stellar performances amongst the supporting cast.
Having said that, I’m ready for a story arc to really kick in, beyond the teasing of the inhabitant of the vault. I’m looking for a surprise in the vault, so at this point, given the heavy hints towards the Master/Missy, I don’t see that’s the direction it will go. I could speculate beyond that, but without much to go on, that would veer towards fan fiction rather than even bonkers theories 🙂8 May 2017 at 01:50 #57243Anonymous @
I hear you: although I was thinking that at times it wasn’t as strong as, say, series 8, when, what with dinosaurs and an overblown score, I couldn’t understand Capaldi. By the next series he’d toned down the Scot but possibly in this last episode the accent was ‘turned up’ again.
Fortunately, our telly has subtitles/captions. It’s embarrassing that whilst I knew it had the subtitle ‘button’ I assumed it was only used for DVDs. For four years I could’ve used the captions on any live or recorded episode! Hilarious.
It was Mr Ilion who, last week, fiddled with it and typically I said “like, really, that’s going to work. It’s not a DVD for heaven’s sake,” after which I apologised profusely alongside Thane’s peels of laughter.
Puro (the occasional dumb nut)8 May 2017 at 02:54 #57244Anonymous @
interesting that in the first episode Bill mentions her Mum’s passed away. The Doctor asks “how do you know what she said then?”
Bill replies, “In my head” and then in Knock Knock, she asks of her mum’s photo, “you proud?” followed by “thanks.”
I know that it’s all suggestible and as a younger girl, after mum died, I too would’ve imaginary conversations in my head with her. I’d do something ‘naughty’ and imagine Mum shaking her head or smiling.
It’s weird that it’s been referenced twice but then Bill appears to be very different; smiling etc instead of frowning; always taking a slightly differently view from the rest of the Pudding Brains. What do you think @ichabod?
(Puro)8 May 2017 at 03:00 #57245
I could speculate beyond that, but
Oh, go on, you’re among friends!
I am trying to link it to anyone we know from Who history, but I am stymied by the piano playing. I cannot link that to anyone.
Unless it’s Stevie Wonder, who found out about performing under London Bridge for River and the Doctor…8 May 2017 at 03:22 #57246Anonymous @
I agree. All I could think of was Beethoven and the Doctor’s own Bootstrap Paradox discussion. He met Beethoven (though there’s some satire & exposition connected with that) so it could be one of his earlier regens in the vault: rather grumpy and teasing?
This is why Thane commented on the Thin Ice thread (by mistake): I thought it was a sweet touch connecting Sherlock and Euros to this element/theme what with Moriarty & Euros complaining about Sherlock’s Bach and the romantic attachment to Fur Elise via Missy’s flirty behaviour towards the Doctor. And Pop Goes the Weasel would work very well when recalling Missy and poor Osgood -who we thought was lost on the fatal plane crash when it was ‘Zygood’ instead.
If the Doctor can riff on Beethoven’s 5th, he could do the same with Fur Elise….and transfer it, via sonic to a piano?
But it’s been noted by Nardole that “you brought a piano in!” Hmmm. A puzzle indeed…
Puro (but we love ’em)8 May 2017 at 05:15 #57247CountScarlioni @countscarlioni
@geoffers if bill lost all her friends like that, she may not have wanted to continue on with traveling with the doctor. she was already a bit leery of his “can’t save everyone” attitude last week…
Agreed. I thought it was dramatically a bit weak for all of them to escape.
I obviously should have been clearer; not suggesting Susan is in the vault (don’t think she’d get excited at the news of the death of young people), but that she may be in play somewhere later in this series, as suggested by a range of people.
@bluesqueakpip As suggested upthread, I agree Clara’s story is over and done as far as the Doctor is concerned and agree with your suggestion the photo of Bill’s Mum is a production joke. But if someone was trying very hard and had been drinking way too much, would it be possible to frame a (definitely) bonkers theory along the lines of unfinished business from Clara, Danny Pink and Orson Pink (we never did get an explanation of the post-it note). What does the timeline look like if Bill’s Mum is the offspring of Clara and Danny? Why has the Doctor parked the Vault at St. Luke’s University? Has he really run into Bill by chance?8 May 2017 at 06:06 #57248
@thane15 I think Clara ends up the Dalek in the Cloisters saying “Kill ME” and Ashildr ends up the nightmare child. They are the hybrid in my opinion, and why I think one of them may be in the vault, or it could be the obvious and it’s the Master.8 May 2017 at 07:36 #57250Anna Sewell Smith @swellsmith
I think the episode cheated quite a lot with the landlord character, hinting that his abrupt appearances and disappearances were due to an inhuman nature, in order to make it a surprise in the end that he is in fact human.
The Doctor’s chummy relationship with the crazy, genocidal Master/Mistress makes him a much less likeable hero to me, but Moffat has talked about how much he likes the friendship angle between the two, so I’m not looking forward to seeing what/who’s in the vault. It’s too bad that less hammy characters like David Suchet’s are inevitably one-offs.
More than any other companion, Bill reminds me of Ace, a character who was consciously crafted to represent a character who captures the youthful spirit of the times. I didn’t care for Nardole in his original two appearances, but he’s grown on me, and he should have been in this episode more.8 May 2017 at 08:29 #57251idiotsavon @idiotsavon
@geoffers I mean, what do you keep locked away, anyway? a treasure, a weapon, a prisoner… a madman/madwoman? (or all of the above?)
I’ve been wondering about that. In the Doomsday vault in Svalbard they keep seeds from around the world, ready for armageddon. Could the Doctor be protecting/preserving a person/people for similar reasons? Someone who’s going to be instrumental in saving the universe when the time comes, perhaps.
The word vault has multiple meanings, too. Could it be a burial chamber (that happens to have a living piano player in it??) If you think ‘vault’ in the sense of ‘spring/jump’ it could perhaps turn out to be a rocket of sorts.
I definitely think the “prisoner” is complicit.
<span style=”line-height: 1.5;”>Doesn’t really add anything to the conversation, but… p</span>
p8 May 2017 at 09:10 #57252Mersey @mersey
I feel sorry for the Doctor. He seems so lonely. It’s apparent that he needs Bill more than she needs him. And he has no one except her (and freak in the vault who is happy to hear that someone got killed) and in her normal life he is like a fifth wheel.
What is the status of Susan? I’ve watched The Five Doctors recently and there was Susan accompanying the First Doctor (played by Richard Hurndall) and when they met The Fifth, The First asked him ‘Do you remember Susan’? And Fifith said ‘of course’ or something like that and they greeted each other but there were no family feelings between them.8 May 2017 at 09:12 #57253Arch @arch
Great little take. Love capaldi but think he really shines without competition ( heaven sent, which is phenomenal for example is one of the best performances by any actor i’ve seen) cause for me Suchet stole the show ( may be biased, adore them both but suchet is just better for me in a crowd). In any case another awesome stand alone which i love because i can watch with the wife without too many questions ;). As to the vault, i agree with other that the master would be a little obvious, so id be learning towards everyones favorite immortal Me, shes certainly a threat and also someone he knows well and would feel he needs to protect, though their was that thing with clara, now im doubting it could be her.8 May 2017 at 11:40 #57255MissRori @missrori
@mersey In the expanded universe of the Big Finish audios, specifically the New Eighth Doctor Adventures range, the Eighth Doctor and an older Susan Foreman interacted in several stories, but post-Last Great Time War her status is “unknown”.
@pedant, Of course another reason it’s probably not Clara in the vault is that having her be key to the story arc would take away from Bill’s role in it all. It would be interesting to have Me be in the vault, but why would the Doctor still care about her after the hand she had in his sorrows in Series 9? I still don’t understand why he just let her follow him onto TARDIS 2.0, as he seemed still unwilling to forgive her.
Actually, the whole Series 9 business would seem to be a reason why it can’t be the Master/Missy. Now that he has an understanding of how s/he hoped to ruin him by pairing him with Clara and creating the Hybrid, I would imagine his fondness for his crazy misguided frienemy is not as strong.
My never-going-to-happen, pie-in-the-sky choice for the vault is the real Hybrid, the one whose identity the Doctor really did want to protect… 😉8 May 2017 at 12:53 #57256
I feel it’s a lot more fun to play around with “pie in the sky” theories.
In the end, probably the Master, but let’s get some crazy theories going before the big reveal.8 May 2017 at 13:07 #57257Arch @arch
Crazy their for vault dweller; Davros.8 May 2017 at 13:22 #57258
I get what everyone is saying about Clara’s story being done, but her one heart beat away from death having joy rides with the ME/Nightmare/Ashildr is what clearly caused the cracks in time. The Doctor knew this when he took her out of the isolation chamber, so how unfinished is her story if that is the case?
Also, all this talk about how the Doctor would be mad at Missy, cause he now knows about her involvement in Clara, or any of that kind of theorising about the Doctor remembering things about Clara has a fundamental flaw – before that kind of theorising takes place we would have to establish he consiously remembers her in the first place.8 May 2017 at 13:27 #57259
@arch Oh! Now that’s a fun theory to chew on. Davros, interesting – sort of has the same feel as Omega in the vault for me; this feeling the Doctor’s mercy is going to cause him a lot of short term trouble.8 May 2017 at 13:41 #57260Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip
Yes, I think it’s a little production joke: Clara was positioned as the Doctor’s ‘daughter’, Bill is positioned as ‘granddaughter’, therefore the picture of her mum – as a little joke – really resembles Clara.
I dunno if we’ll see Susan herself, but Moffat really has re-taken the Doctor through his entire life cycle. We’ve seen him acting like a big kid with his parents (in law), first dates, getting married, having a surrogate-daughter – and now ‘Grandfather’ has a grand-daughter. Full Circle. Back to where he began – except nowadays its a university rather than Coal Hill School, because the Doctor’s journey is more a spiral (see credits) than a circle.8 May 2017 at 13:47 #57261
Okay, crazy theory about vault: ME is forever bitter she was made to live forever because of the Doctor’s misguided mercy, so as revenge she gives meta crisis human Doctor 10 her other chip, which means he is forced to outlive Rose which turns him bitter, dangerous and the true Hybrid. Metacrisis, part human, part time lord and now part Mire would make him the Hybrid, and would explain the Doctor’s fear of the Hybrid.
So, enjoy my latest craziest “person in the vault playing Fur Elise” theory and please come up theories even more insane then this one.8 May 2017 at 14:03 #57262
ok, so here’s my (latest) theory as to what is in the vault (if not who).
I think that the ‘person’ in the vault is a hero of the Doctor’s.
Well, Mofatt has played around with heroes for a while throughout his tenure (Robin Hood, Father Xmas, Superman in xmas special etc etc).
But these are usually human heroes – our heroes.
Who are the Doctor’s heroes?
Now, in terms of a bonkers theory, so far all I’ve suggested is a theory (yes, I should stop while I’m ahead!).
So here’s the bonkers bit.
The person in the vault is someone who likes stories. They have connections to the Doctor and writing; they’re interested in heroes themselves; they have connections to ‘magic’ (Capaldoc has been mentioning it a few times). Maybe they’re a hero to Mofatt as well, to bring the whole thing a bit more meta…
Yes – Alan Moore is in the vault.8 May 2017 at 14:32 #57263IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant
Yes – Alan Moore is in the vault.
By Jove! I think you’ve cracked it(1)!
(1) For some values of “cracked”.8 May 2017 at 14:47 #57264Mirime @mirime
Alan Moore is in the vault.
@wisht I would love this. Now I’m going to be so disappointed with whoever actually is in there.8 May 2017 at 15:12 #57265Erfan Ostadi @theuncomingstorm
A rather fine episode, though containing some plot holes. David Suchet shined as the landlord… brilliant performance.
I am new to this forum (after years of being a die-hard fan of DrWho, I wondered why I hadn’t joined a forum to discuss it with people who share the passion for it!) But what I want to point out specifically, is a solid theory on who’s actually inside the vault.
I am pretty sure it will end up being true and it isn’t the obvious candidate, so read at your own risk:
We’ve all come to know Steven Moffat and his style of haunting the souls of fans across his story arcs. People are pointing out now that the person inside the vault is Missy (or the Master, as we know will show up again this season) but isn’t that way too obvious for Moffat? No, that can’t be it!
What if the person inside the vault is none other than the titular Valeyard?!!! We all know that Peter Capaldi is saying goodbye this season and as promised by the Master, the Valeyard is in evil incarnation of the Doctor who will show face somewhere along his 12th and last regeneration. (And of course, the Moff is a fan of the classic era.) Remember The Name of the Doctor? the GI mentioned that the Doctor will go on to be known by many other titles, including the Valeyard. Now, Moffat doesn’t just sit down and refer to these stuff throughout his scripts incidentally! So yeah… we’re definitely seeing the evil side of the Doctor.
—–8 May 2017 at 15:31 #57266
As bonkers theories go, it is probably impossible to beat that one!8 May 2017 at 16:15 #57267
Hang on, hang on! It all becomes clear!!! All the clues are there!!!
The vault contains someone/thing that is needs to be contained, presumably for the good of the universe…
The repeated David Bowie references…
Is there Life on Mars? It can only be…
Cracked it. <Drops mic.>8 May 2017 at 17:09 #57268
@blenkinsopthebrave – ‘In show piano player extraordinaire’ – It’s Dodo! (#Dodo’s in the vault)8 May 2017 at 18:24 #57269
Ahhhh, yeah, this is what I love…keep the bonkers theories going. (:
So, my Metacrisis theory, way too crazy?
@whisht Nice theory. Alan Moore, ha ha! Can’t beat that.8 May 2017 at 18:31 #57270
Very much enjoying the feel of all these episodes. I’m thinking that emotionally, this is the lowest key doctor since Tom Baker. Like @countscarlioni, I like the scope of the threats as well. We’re definitely seeing a thread of villains who aren’t really villains. I confess it’s a theme that resonates with me. Increasingly in the world as it has become, I’m finding myself wanting to believe that most people really don’t mean any harm. (@Redlemons, even before the “reveal” at the end, I wasn’t thinking of the lice as the villains, rather the landlord who was using them.) I also agree with @blenkinsopthebrave about the parent/child references. I feel as though there as a theme of “care” running through the series, which would tie in with the vault. I’ve only watched each episode once, though, so I’ll have to go back and look at them all again.
Loved this line: “I was never in with a chance! Awesome!”8 May 2017 at 18:34 #57271
Who is in the vault? So far, I’m leaning toward the Master, except that it seems too obvious to be a fun reveal. @blenkinsopthebrave, I thought all through Series 8 that “Missy as Master” was way too obvious for Moffat! 🙂 But I suppose the surprise could be more in the line of “how/why” rather than “who”. The Doctor doesn’t fear whomever it is, but Nardole definitey does!
@thane15 i’m currently holding to the belief that the music choices were made for reasons of mood. The emotive Bohemian feeling of the Bach sonata, the contemplative melancholy of Fur Elise.“The typical annoying opening is like a ‘stutter’ for children who often play the first bar repeatedly!” One of my current students is a bright little autistic girl, who never plays a piece the same way twice (meaning different mistakes every time!). The number of repeats on that stutter varies from only a couple extra to multitudes!
Am I imagining things, or did Roger Delgado’s master once play the organ?8 May 2017 at 18:35 #57272MissRori @missrori
Also, all this talk about how the Doctor would be mad at Missy, cause he now knows about her involvement in Clara, or any of that kind of theorising about the Doctor remembering things about Clara has a fundamental flaw – before that kind of theorising takes place we would have to establish he consiously remembers her in the first place.
Point taken. Still, at the very least the Doctor knows there’s a Clara-shaped hole in his memory, and in “Hell Bent” he admitted to Clara-the-waitress that he was looking for her…
@arbutus The “care” theme looks to be a pretty strong one in this series; if the “episode guide” Moffat released to the Radio Times is any indication, it’s crucial to the finale and the Doctor’s actions in it.8 May 2017 at 18:37 #57273
@mudlark If you accept the premise of alien woodlice, then it doesn’t require a great deal more effort to suspend disbelief as regards their alien powers. In my view, a lot of DW watchers need to be told this a lot more often! 🙂8 May 2017 at 18:39 #57274
@missrori Interesting. I confess I’ve stayed away as much as possible from any information about what’s to come. However, based on even the little we know about the vault, that doesn’t seem surprising.8 May 2017 at 19:27 #57277CountScarlioni @countscarlioni
@arbutus Am I imagining things, or did Roger Delgado’s master once play the organ?
I don’t recall the Master ever playing the organ, but the Doctor has at least a couple of times, perhaps more. The occasions I can remember are in The Lazarus Experiment and the 6th Doctor story Attack of the Cybermen, in which the Doctor actually fixed the chameleon circuit for a time and it became an organ. The Doctor I think therefore played tunes on the Tardis in a junkyard in Totters Lane (yes, perhaps best forgotten!).8 May 2017 at 20:30 #57279
ah, thanks all for being kind to my spot of bonkerising.
Must admit, I’m a bit out of practice but hopefully the truth is at least as crazy!
Unfortunately I’ve now been struck by a bout of anti-bonkers (it’ll pass).
But some non-silly tidbits:
As has been seen, my humour is poor, but I do wonder whether the use of Bach is simply a bad pun (ie “bark”).
When the Doctor says he’s brought food he says “mexican” and the pianist hits a dour note. A Michelle Gomez joke?
And didn’t Missy say/sing “pop goes the weasel” in an earlier series… oh I must be imagining that.
Either miss(y)direction or it really is him/her.
Hm….. need to get me some bonkers.
or some music !
:¬)8 May 2017 at 20:33 #57280
Did The Master play the organ while masquerading as a vicar in The Daemons? The image is half there in my head…8 May 2017 at 21:07 #57283JimTheFish @jimthefishTime Lord
Another great episode. This series is continuing to knock it right out of the park. (Even in the mighty s5 we’d have had to sit through Vampires in Venice by now). The ‘misunderstood monster’ trope seems to be continuing which still makes me think that we’ll be seeing some ultimate rehabilitation of the Master/Missy at some point (which interests me because if so where does that leave the character for when Chibnall takes over?)
Fine work on the developing relationship between the Doctor and Bill — and I still see Bill as a much more Rose-like character than I do a Donna-like one. (And have to say @bluesqueakpip, who do you think Bill’s mum reminds you of?)
On the vault, some great ideas above. Of the suggestions offered, I’m loving Alan Moore, Chris Chibnall but especially Dodo. That would be a curveball and a half.
But to be honest, I think this whole vault thing is going to be like the ‘hybrid’ of last season. It’s not in the end going to really matter that much. I suspect @pedant is right and that there’s a lot of Moffat-ey ‘look over there’ going on and that the vault’s contents will be revealed with barely a whisper. The fact that we’re going to learn what’s inside by episode 6 suggests it’s not going to be a massive deal in terms of the entire arc I suspect.8 May 2017 at 21:34 #57284
OK, I am will to assume @jimthefish and @pedant are correct and the whole focus on the vault is a distraction. If so, then it will probably be Missy in the vault, if she appears in episode 6. (But, @jimthefish, has it actually been established that we will learn what’s inside the vault in episode 6?)
If the vault is a distraction, what is he distracting us from? I can only assume that Moffat has already seeded something else which we haven’t noticed because we have focussed (as he intended) on the vault. Following this line of reasoning, I would assume it is something to do with the regeneration. In this episode, for instance, he mentions regeneration to Bill, but cuts the conversation short, as if he did not want to talk about it in detail. But I cannot remember what the exact dialogue was. Nor am I sure if there was anything said in the previous episodes this series that alludes to regeneration. If Moffat has indeed seeded something else and it is not regeneration, then I can only assume it concerns Susan, who has been alluded to. And actually, that’s what I am really hoping for.8 May 2017 at 22:15 #57285
hmmmm…. actually I may have a development on my previous bonkers theory.
Like others, I’d said that the Doctor’s next regeneration may be in the vault, yet needing time to ‘bake’.
Now, if I take a theme of this series so far and that is parents and children and taking care of them, perhaps the Doctor has already regenerated but as a child.
Knowing that its not the best physical form to have when confronting humans who would simply dismiss him (Daleks are wiser and wouldn’t care about his form), he goes back in time to his previous regeneration (Capaldi) and asks him to look after him till he physically grows ‘old’ enough to not have to hide anymore. Like around 50 years or so.
hm, on second thoughts maybe I should stick with Moore and move on to other bonkerising.8 May 2017 at 22:32 #57286JimTheFish @jimthefishTime Lord
@blenkinsopthebrave– hopefully it’s not a spoiler to reveal (in DWM I think) that SM has said that we’ll see inside the vault in ep6. I think you’re right that regeneration is going to be the key and also caught in Knock Knock that significant beat about regeneration at the start of the episode. My personal theory is that the Doctor’s regeneration has already started or will start about halfway through the series.
And while the cat is halfway out of the bag, I suspect that what SM is trying to distract us from is indeed something of a Susan-ey (and related character) nature…8 May 2017 at 22:48 #57287
Oh my, @whisht! That is fabulous bonkerising! 🙂
The fact 12 seems to have grown into a parent/grandparent figure, the lines about regeneration and not leaving your charge behind. If 13 did travel back in time as a child to get 12’s help, maybe 13’s TARDIS is also in the vault with him or her. That would tie into Nardole’s suggestion to Bill to consider a TARDIS as a big box inside a smaller box.
Mild spoilers below…
Bonus level bonkerising: Peter Capaldi has said he has already filmed his character’s death scene. Yet the Christmas special, in which he was expected to appear, has not yet been filmed. Could the Christmas special be the story of young 13 going back in time, and growing up under the care of 12, leading up to the start of this series? You could even imagine a theme running through of the maturing 13’s experiences of Christmasses over the 50 odd years 12 & 13 jr are together. That would be sweet.8 May 2017 at 23:01 #57288
Just got this off of Wikipedia…
The melody of “Pop Goes the Weasel” was used as a leitmotif in several episodes of the 1960s science fiction series ‘The Prisoner’, particularly in the series’ penultimate episode ” Once Upon a Time” in which the lead character, under an intense form of interrogation, obsessively sings the song, with “POP” identified as a meme representing the directive “protect other people.”8 May 2017 at 23:19 #57289
Gwendoline from Ghost Light also tinkled the ivories…
Here she is doing her impression of Kate Bush circa 1883…9 May 2017 at 02:01 #57290tardigrade @tardigrade
Oh, go on, you’re among friends!
If you insist…
The idea I’m fondest of is that Moffat will do something new with the regeneration story- it’s something that’s been done fairly similarly many times. So perhaps it’s a future version of the Doctor who is in the vault. Hints suggest that the vault-dweller may not be quite a prisoner- certainly the Doctor appears willing to enter the vault and engage with whoever is in there, albeit without Nardole’s approval. The Doctor has been seen to play piano/pipe organ in the past. And I can imagine after being isolated for decades he’d be hungry for a new story (and a spot of Indian takeaway). Quite why he’d need to be locked away, I don’t know- perhaps he inadvertently killed his earlier incarnation and this is an attempt to stop/delay that (and the vault is an extraction chamber)? So the oath might be to his future self?
Or if that’s too bonkers, perhaps it could be Rassilon – someone the Doctor has a complicated relationship with and who might be best locked away. In that case, perhaps his oath is to the Time Lords, to keep Rassilon from seeking vengeance for his banishment. To me that’s a much bigger loose end than Clara / Ashildr – I really think their story is over (though a future cameo isn’t completely out of the question- they are both functionally immortal after all). The Master/Missy could still be involved, in that case maybe working with the Doctor against a common enemy. Again, I like the idea of Missy being a “companion” for a story arc (it couldn’t be long-term!), needing to work together as uneasy allies against a common foe.
I don’t read a lot into the piano tying to a particular character- it seems more to be a plot device to allow interaction with the Doctor without the viewer seeing or hearing the character, and so maintain the mystery. And of course, it doesn’t have to be an existing character, but if that’s the case, then drawing out the reveal and teasing who’s in there seems like it would only be setting up for a let down. I’m getting keen to see who’s in there and get the story arc moving along.
Crazy their for vault dweller; Davros
The idea has occurred to me- he’s certainly again someone with whom the Doctor has a complicated relationship, and who might need to be isolated from the universe at large. However, I can’t picture him physically playing a piano. Maybe a younger version of Davros, in a attempt to stop the Daleks coming about in the first place, or some such plan (paradoxes notwithstanding)?9 May 2017 at 03:06 #57294Missy @missy
I’m following the lead of a member who wrote their opinion before reading the rest.
David Suchet was menacing, simply because most of the time he was so charming and gentle. Beautifully done.
At last Bill has discovered that the Doctor is a Time Lord, but only because he offered the information. She is such a curious young woman as a rule, so why didn’t she ask more about the Doctor’s origins before? I found that odd and out of character. Also, did she try to stop the Doctor helping her to move in because she didn’t want to share him? Or because, as she says, this was her time – without him.
The creaky floorboards, good one, really scary.
The highlight for me? Telling whoever/whatever, is in the vault that he has a story to tell, and the occupants reaction when he mentions ‘it eats children.’ The joyous rendering of “Pop goes the weasel” was classic, and brought to mind John Simm’s ‘Master.’
Loved the addition of a piano and Nardole’s comments. “you’ll/you never learn.’
The plot is definitely thickening.
Now I must trawl though all your posts.
otrs.9 May 2017 at 03:48 #57295Missy @missy
None of the people I can think of, would be thrilled about children being eaten.
How can Clara be in the vault, the Doctor doesn’t remember her, only her name? As for ME, she is with Clara and neither of them would rejoice in the consuming of children.
The Sherlock touch, was fun -could it be Euros? Not likely.
The photo didn’t remind me of Clara.
Frankly I’m stumped and possibly the Vault is meant to steer us away form what’s really going on.
There were so many interesting things. The bugs reminded me of the cyber-mats. A couple of the passages put me in mind of Mycroft’s house in The Final Problem and of course the piano and does Nardole know that the Doctor actually enters the vault? More and more, but I cannot think of them at the moment.
Yes, this has been mentioned I believe. Where was the boy’s Father during his Mother’s illness?
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