9 May 2017 at 05:15 #57296
What if the Dr went back to the handmine field and stole young Davros. That certainly fits the themes of the season so far but causes huge paradox and time issues. However if we assume the vault is of Galifrey origin then its possible its contents are protected from the usual rules.9 May 2017 at 06:20 #57297
@arch: Why not.
Trouble is, even Davros wouldn’t have been so cheerful about child eating monsters. he’d also have trouble playing the piano. still it’s a theory.
Missy9 May 2017 at 06:29 #57298Anonymous @
yes, I would agree with @arbutus ‘ that the music was probably mood creating -the Bach: Bohemian and the Beethoven a little production ‘trick’ or nudge reminding us of Seasons 8 and 9 and the connection music has with this particular Doctor who played a little of Beethoven’s 5th during the beginning of The Pilot, introducing Bill. It’s a cute Euros/style crossover, though. 🙂 I also like your theorising @bluesqueakpip about ‘going full circle.’
Any return to Clara, Davros or even Lady Me could be a regression (?) to a finalised story, imo. The Lady has a tardis of her own and Clara’s saved in between heart beats. Having seen The Husbands of River Song and recalling how River saw the Doctor in the Library (Doctor 10) and referred specifically to “when the wind stands firm…..[the towers will sing]” knowing that they meet each other ‘backwards,’ I think (sadly) River’s story has ended (or continues on in The Library *-_-*).
It’s a truism that in loving these characters so much we feel that urge to see them ‘one last time’ when I think, and kudos to Moffat for pulling those strings and then letting them go just at the right time, that these journeys do end and need to otherwise the momentum of the show’s questioned. The story, however, to quote Dr 11, “never ends.”
If we know who the occupant is in Episode 6 then I assume as others have above (@jimthefish) that there’s a lot of “over here (hear), look over here” happening and another mystery (possibly the Doctor’s regeneration) is being unveiled via sleight of hand. ?!? I like the idea @tardigrade that the oath is “to his future self.” Was the oath and promise one and the same? Also, was the oath made with regards to the vault, specifically? Someone who has a much better memory than I could clear that up for me?!
I always liked Missy’s comment in The Witches Familiar (series 9), “the friend inside the enemy and the enemy inside the friend” which resonates with the Doctor’s ‘tending’ to this vault (or catapult -an actual story springboard! @idiotsavon -great bonkers!) and as @whisht has said (fab bonkers too!), waiting for whatever’s inside…to “bake.”
@blenkinsopthebrave After the Doctor spoke about TLs, Bill mentioned his bedroom and the Doctor said “when we eat a large meal and during regeneration” (also, a ‘baking’ @whisht). Then Bill asks, “what’s that?” and the Doctor says, “ah the questions, the questions, just remember, TL – for now” and then they’re at their destination (one could see relief in the Doctor’s eyes for a moment!). I agree with you -Susan would be terrific! When Dr Hartnell sees her for the last time, his speech, still brings tears to the ol’ eyes. The reference/glance to Susan on his desk, the picture of her in the Black Archive during the 50th anniversary seeds the hope 🙂 (1)
@missy I think that Bill is definitely curious but knows when to stop? Last week, she said “you’ve been holding out on me, do you have, like, magic whaling powers? and then immediately after says, “or is that a personal question?” I believe she’s curious and self aware but also, considering her own situation, can be necessarily cautious and respectful. She knows where to draw the line at ‘too many questions’ in my opinion.
@frobisher Hah! Rick Wakeman -had to wipe the keyboard from that ‘laughing coffee spit’! Also, love your child in the ‘box’ theory and the connection during The Pilot with Nardole’s explanation. So the vault could be a place to ‘grow/bake’ as well as protection -for whatever’s inside because, as we know, what society fears, generally leads to suspicion, hate and lots of violence (Zygon invasion etc)? That’s a sad thought. 🙁
But perhaps Moff’s going a double bluff?
“it can’t be Missy or the Master in the vault because it’s too obvious, therefore, it WILL be the Master (Simm) in the vault!” ( in the ads I remember Sim surrounded by yellow light -that which emanates from the vault at the end of Knock Knock has a regen ‘tint’ to it).
@swellsmith I’m not sure that there are too many hammy characters in Who? A few, yes, but I don’t think that’s happened this season -or last. Indeed, Nardole is growing on me too but with so many characters in such a short time span it’s probably best he appeared at the end. I think he’s featured next week? btw, you’re a new member? Hallo and welcome to the Club!! With the ‘cheating’ of the Landlord. Really? I think that’s the nature of a young man, now elderly, used to tip-toeing about the house whilst his mother’s ill. It’s also part of any good horror story -the landlord is a ‘creep‘ 😈
the thick plottens…indeed @missy
(1) I still felt a bit underwhelmed with this particular story @blenkinsopthebrave -I respect Mr Suchet, immensely, however. I think this story was important for its dialogue during prologue and epilogue.9 May 2017 at 06:40 #57299tardigrade @tardigrade
None of the people I can think of, would be thrilled about children being eaten.
I don’t think it’s essential that they’re happy about children being eaten. Their interest is in a new story about children being eaten- possibly with the presumption of a happy ending, as the Doctor is choosing to tell the story. I enjoyed this story, but to be clear, I don’t condone paedophagy 🙂 . This is someone who’s been cooped up for decades- a story from the outside might be a big draw, and the Doctor has pretty much been in one place and not generating new stories for some time. His thrilling stories about life on campus may not have been cutting the mustard.
I find the Doctor’s choice to call the students “children” interesting in itself. No doubt a 20-something is a child for a 2000-year old, but that also suggests that the person whom he’s speaking to would also, or maybe he’s just spicing up selling the story a little.9 May 2017 at 07:11 #57300
@wolfweed Always read the small print! Did nobody scrutinise that contract? I’d love to see the actual wording.
I was surprised that the Doctor didn’t have a look at that contract!
@frobisher . . . the twist was unexpected. There is definitely a theme of release going on, imo.
Loved Suchet — and yes, liberation . . . will that be this Doctor’s departure’s resonance?
@countscarlioni David Suchet would have made a marvellous Master!
Good Heavens, yes! He has a splendid voice, too, very noticeable in the after-show interview. And wow, the eyes — you would need a writer with a wider take, though, on the Master and his/her motives and feelings, or you’d be underserving this actor.9 May 2017 at 07:39 #57301tardigrade @tardigrade
Was the oath and promise one and the same? Also, was the oath made with regards to the vault, specifically? Someone who has a much better memory than I could clear that up for me?!
I’m not claiming a better memory- I remembered how to look up a transcript for what that’s worth…
BILL: One question. Little fella said you made an oath? You’re not supposed to leave the planet.
DOCTOR: Okay, I suppose I owe you an explanation. A long time ago, a thing happened. As a result of the thing, I made a promise. As a result of the promise, I have to stay on Earth.
BILL: Guarding a vault.
DOCTOR: Guarding a vault.
BILL: Well, you’re not guarding a vault right now.
DOCTOR: Yes, I am. I have a time machine. I can be back before we left.
BILL: But what if you get lost, or stuck, or something?
DOCTOR: I’ve thought about that.
DOCTOR: Well, it would be a worry, so best not to dwell on it.
So promise = oath, and it seems guarding the vault is part of that. Generally though, if you’re guarding a vault, you’re protecting what’s inside from someone outside, not locking away someone inside to stop them getting out- it’s not a vault then, it’s a prison.9 May 2017 at 07:59 #57302Anonymous @
Thanks. Registered with attention last night, quite right.9 May 2017 at 08:00 #57303
@kharis So, enjoy my latest craziest “person in the vault playing Fur Elise” theory and please come up theories even more insane then this one.
Trying, really trying, but — love it just the way you put it! Ah, there we are — Alan Moore!
@arbutus . . . villains who aren’t really villains. I confess it’s a theme that resonates with me.
Me too; even villains who really *are* villains have their reasons. Time and again, you come across criminals, often child-molester types, whose explanation (excuse) is that they’re only doing what anyone do if they had the courage to follow their instincts instead of submitting to the constraints of the law. And they believe that, because they literally can’t imagine the inside of another person’s head working *differently* than the inside of their own: so everyone else is just pretending to be “good”. To me, now, that’s a real horror story.
@jimthefish My personal theory is that the Doctor’s regeneration has already started or will start about halfway through the series.
Holy crap — that would be a kicker and a half!
@frobisher Could the Christmas special be the story of young 13 going back in time, and growing up under the care of 12, leading up to the start of this series?
Aarrghhh — now I want to see this.
@missy Loved the addition of a piano and Nardole’s comments. “you’ll/you never learn.’
Mm. You never learn — what? I’m thinking, maybe, “You never learn that no matter how considerate and conciliatory you try to be with an enemy/dangerous unknown entity, they will chomp your ass when they get the chance. You never learn not to pet the tiger! That the tiger is not your friend!” After all, the Doctor’s approach to new things is usually curiosity rather than suspicion and defensive offensiveness. That’s part of the courage the Doctor has, and also his foolhardiness — he assumes that other people are like himself inside their heads until they prove otherwise. Which, incidentally, is what makes him the opposite of the child molester who says, “I just have the guts to do what you all would do, if you had the nerve!”
It makes him a “good man”.9 May 2017 at 08:12 #57304
@thane15 Puro — I respect Mr Suchet, immensely, however. I think this story was important for its dialogue during prologue and epilogue.
Ha. Time for a re-watch (I haven’t done that yet. Bugs . . . I’m relieved, though to have them out of the way now, so I don’t have to worry about a heart attack now that they’ve arrived and done their thing).
@tardigrade So promise = oath, and it seems guarding the vault is part of that. Generally though, if you’re guarding a vault, you’re protecting what’s inside from someone outside, not locking away someone inside to stop them getting out- it’s not a vault then, it’s a prison.
And CapDoc did express relief, in Pilot, that whatever was mucking about in the basement wasn’t after or interested in the vault (but seeking Bill). So a threat from outside seems to be what he’s concerned about, which is backed up by his walking in there without hesitation at the end of Knock Knock. So he’s not expecting whatever’s in there to charge out or attack him; so he seems to be guarding something from attack rather than keeping something prone to do the attacking itself from getting out.9 May 2017 at 08:43 #57305
Im still pretty convinced, that whatevers in the vault is a child, almost certainly not davros but if i lose grip on reality momentarily, in the husbands of river song, on their last night together (24 years) maybe they had a child. Now presumably hes been guarding the vault for quite some time, which would make any normal child old, but being half time lord and half river ( who herself had an augmented life) this child could still be young, which would mean the oath was given to river to protect their child, who would undoubtedly have enemies due to who its father is.
However all that aggressive banging makes me sceptical, though if the child were now an unruly teenager, still dosent explain the delight at hearing a story about children being eaten, hmmmm.
It does certainly sound like that whatever is in the vault verges on the more evil side, but whos to know what being confined to a vault would do to a child. Either way im still convinced its a child and not some monster like a dalek, cyberman or weeping angel. If it is in fact the master, my money is on the master as a child.9 May 2017 at 13:01 #57306Anonymous @
going back a day I think you said that the cracks in time were created by ME/Clara etc….I actually thought they were the TLs cracks -having been hidden ‘cupasoup’- like and wanting to be ‘let out’? I think Clara whispered to them that his name was the ‘Doctor’ and with that they bestowed on him a further set of regenerations allowing him to defeat the menace constantly enveloping Trenzalore and allowing the Doctor to begin again….
terrific theory! Plausible too.
So what do we know about the Unearthly Child being Susan? I’m presuming she ‘escaped’ with her ‘grandfather’ on the day he ran from the algorithmic prophecy. And Susan was definitely his grand-daughter? Or was that a handy cover story? My BG Who is appalling -as is monstrously evident! I’m wondering about the crossover between his wife, River, and the possibility of a daughter/or close relative as per @arch‘s theory….(_-_)
Puro.9 May 2017 at 13:05 #57307Anonymous @9 May 2017 at 13:16 #57308Mudlark @mudlark
Im still pretty convinced, that whatevers in the vault is a child,
This would certainly fit with what we saw, or rather heard. Fur Elise is a relatively simple piece for a child to master and, when interest is sparked in the prospect of a new story involving children being eaten, we get the jaunty ‘Pop Goes the Weasel’. * Some children are little ghouls when it comes to such tales, so long as the tales have a fantastical setting and the goodies survive. I also like your idea that the child in question might be the offspring of River and the Doctor, and the promise was made to River. Bearing in mind the River’s experiences as a child with Time Lord abilities, she might have had good reason to be concerned for its safety. Fifty plus years is a long childhood, but perhaps time in the vault passes at a different rate – cf. The Girl Who Waited.
It would also fit all the references to the Doctor in the role of parent or grandparent, and not just of Susan. The fact that he refers to Bill and her housemates as children, when in fact they are young adults, reinforces the sense that he is seeing himself in that role.
Equally I’m drawn to the theory that the occupant of the vault might be a future Doctor, so why not combine the two notions. The person in the vault is the child of the Doctor and River, and the Doctor will regenerate by merging with that child. Moffat and Capaldi have, after all, hinted strongly that this will be a regeneration like none before 😉
* No small mammals of the mustelid persuasion were harmed in the making of this nursery rhyme. The weasel which was pawned (popped) is thought to have been a nickname for craftsman’s tool – possibly a tailors iron.9 May 2017 at 14:13 #57309
Something bothers me though. Would you lock a child in a vault, even for his/hers own protection. Seems rough. Of course if we assume the vault is gallifeyan in origin, it xould be much larger on the inside, i guess we really have no idea how large the vault is or if indeed it conforms to normal time rules, hmmmmm. If its designed to keep something safe and if it does not conform to usual laws of time and space could it perhaps be a young doctor.
Perhaps he has to keep a child version of himself in the vault age him to maturity before letting him take his place. This theory allays almost all my problems, keeping a child captive etc, which seems very undoctor like, as i assume having two of them would shatter time, but safely sealed in a timey wimey gallifreyan vault he can just age and presto take over when the time is right.
Maybe im too hung up on the concept that it has to be a child, i think i need sleep.9 May 2017 at 16:58 #57310The-key1 @the-key1
What about Doctor 12.5 (The Valeyard)?
Being in the vault? We know both Showruner and star love classic who. To mix and test reaction what about a certain game of thrones lady playing the part?? Hence why regeneration not so straight forward? Ties up a loose thread as well,
Love to here comments on this.9 May 2017 at 18:21 #57312Craig @craigEmperor
I liked this recently posted vid. The lovely David Suchet about working on Doctor Who. It’s perhaps a bit ‘luvvie’ but it’s also really nice.
I know one strange fact about David Suchet. His life was quite possibly saved by an episode of Tales of the Unexpected. They used an extreme close-up of his eyes in one episode and a doctor who was watching instantly diagnosed extremely high cholesterol and that a heart attack could be imminent, managed to get in touch, and he’s now on medication to manage it. Weird how life works!9 May 2017 at 21:33 #57320Mudlark @mudlark
Post script to a completely irrelevant footnote. On reflection I think that the weasel in Pop Goes the Weasel might be Cockney rhyming slang: weasel and stoat = coat, which would better fit the once common practice among the perennially cash-strapped of pawning their Sunday-best clothes on a Monday and redeeming them the following weekend after payday. It would also fit the London references in the rhyme – the City Road and the Eagle (a pub/music hall on the City Road).10 May 2017 at 08:45 #57328Frobisher @frobisher
I had another thought about this episode late last night. The episode title reminds me of a classic joke. Could this even be a clue regarding the vault?
Well, yes! How did you guess?
Apologies if this has already been posted. The thread is too long to check now! 😉10 May 2017 at 12:23 #57329geoffers @geoffers
It can only be…RICK WAKEMAN!
LOL… but there aren’t nearly enough notes squeezed into those two little piano pieces, for it to be The Cape, himself!
some great theories about the vault since the last time i checked in. i’m still thinking, tho:
1) the master. (why is the more important question, instead of really?) perhaps the master was dying, after his fight with rassilon, and the doctor promised to help him, with some regeneration energy, but he has to stay in the (stasis?) vault until the doctor regenerates? [i like this idea, but i’ll have to think up a reason why tennant didn’t just help him during his “farewell” tour. shouldn’t be too hard. like, the regen was tainted by the radiation, and the dying master would be killed, instead of healed? lol]
2) the doctor, himself, whilst regenerating. my fanfic of him wanting to put something of himself into the library computer, to be with river forever, just won’t go away… i know, it’s unhealthy. i never learn…
3) river. we’ve still not found out how she became a “ghost out of the machine,” way back in ‘the name of the doctor.’ or perhaps it’s river as a child, and he’s her caretaker, up until he has to return her to her “proper time,” to be a teenager growing up with amy and rory? 😀10 May 2017 at 13:34 #57330janetteB @janetteb
I posted a comment but it appears to have been eaten by woodlice.
I had an insane theory, that the prisoner in the vault in Missy’s daughter. Possibly the Doctor is keeping her safe from her Mum/Dad or imprisoning her because she even more insane than her Mum/Dad. My guess however is that it is Missy in the vault.
Have not read comments yet, but some thoughts before I plunge in,
The play on the Doctor as Grandfather was another nod to Susan and the promise to return. Again the danger of being held to a promise was a theme this episode and the heart of the story was filial relationships which have featured in all but last week’s episode.
The Doctor likes Chinese food, something to add to the Who themed party. The menu is getting more varied but nothing will beat the popularity of fish fingers and custard. (Or Jammy dodgers and custard, an excellent substitute.)
Janette10 May 2017 at 18:47 #57331Mersey @mersey
What if the TARDIS is going to be killed or regenerate and the Doctor is growing the new one in the vault? He did such thing in audios, he even told that new Tardis children stories.11 May 2017 at 01:51 #57335
I’m enjoying the bonkers turn that this thread has taken. @kharis If I’ve read the thread right, I think you were the catalyst. Nice work! @mersey Big box inside a little box inside a size-yet-to-be-determined box. I like it. (I liked your explanation about the combined genres – comic book and drama – in the last thread too. Ages ago I know!)
I’ve had exactly two-and-a-half thoughts about the Doctor’s oath:
Firstly, the Doctor says to Bill that he has to stay on earth guarding a vault because “a thing happened.” In The Husbands of River Song, River asks how it is that the Doctor has a new face (i.e. a new regeneration cycle.) He answers with the same three words: “A thing happened.” Flimsy I know, but since he uses the exact same words, I wonder whether he is referring to the same event. In that case, the whole vault thing would somehow link with the Doctor’s new regeneration cycle.
Secondly, the Doctor “grounded” Strax, who served pennance as a nurse. This wasn’t an entirely original idea on the Doctor’s part: Novice Hame had previously (in the future) served pennance as the Face of Boe’s nurse. So I wonder whether the Doctor is himself serving pennance, and “nursing” whoerver is in the vault. Now, anybody with authority to “ground” the Doctor would I guess have the power to confiscate his TARDIS. So I can only think that the “pennance” would be self-imposed. Perhaps with Nardole as witness, to stop the Doctor rebelling against himself.
And half a thought: Elise is a diminutive form of Elizabeth, which means oath to God. The God bit complicates things in the Whoniverse, but if a writer were looking for a name (and/or piece of music) which had a tenuous link to oaths, they could do worse than Elise/fur Elise.11 May 2017 at 02:15 #57336
It might be interfering with his own timeline, so probably not a thing. But…
Could the Doctor encounter someone in a future episode (say an injured redeemable villain who will take decades to heal) and send them back in time to be imprisoned/brought up/nursed by his past self? The Future Doctor makes his past self promise to give up his off-earth adventuring in order to look after the prisoner and guard the vault. (Remembering, of course, that this is what already happened to him.) The Future Doctor can’t meet his past self face-to-face, so Bill goes as his messenger. This would explain why the Doctor in The Pilot “chooses” Bill out of all the non-students at his lectures: He’s already met Future Bill.11 May 2017 at 02:45 #57337Anonymous @
love both those theories!
The penance idea is interesting, isn’t it? And the “imagine that bigger box inside the small box” works very well as an actual ‘thing.’
I was wondering if it’s Doctor Who himself -Peter Capaldi caught in some confusing regeneration issue?
Except, if we find out in Episode 6 then I expect not!
Someone on the awful interwebs (generally a hate-space for all things Moffat, I find, so I stay clear) mentioned that the Doctor in Series 10 is a baddie playing the Doctor because he doesn’t know answers to exactly how many people he killed, for example. It was noted in the 50th anniversary special that such details don’t normally escape him.
If ‘Pop Goes the Weasel’ really was a Missy song then the hint suggests it’s Gomez/Simm in the vault but I think that might be revealed in the final three episodes of the season rather than thru their presence in the vault. Could it be an ice warrior? The First Doctor? The Valeyard?
As it’s Gallifreyan it’s probably enormous, therefore, is it one thing? Or many? Also, it eats! And Mexican! And it has some fine motor skills —-> piano. As @whisht said ‘Gomez =Mexican’ 🙂
@idiotsavon yes, Fur Elise could’ve been written for one Elizabeth Rockel (sic), a friend of Beethoven’s who following her marriage to another gentleman, had a child named Eliza/Elizabeth. The piece may have been a christening gift. There are a number of apocryphal stories regarding the work. Personally, I think it’s a mood choice -the stutter in the first two bars =something slightly nuts or teasing/waiting for more…. & Pop = fun and games after hearing that some “young people got eaten.”
I think he enjoys spending time with this particular inhabitant. Makes me think he enjoys his own company so it’s PC in the box after all! 😀
Puro.11 May 2017 at 03:05 #57338Anonymous @
@janetteb I was thinking exactly the same! I now need to phone the local Chinese to get my order in instead of looking for jelly babies. The first time I met the lady who now owns the local Chinese restaurant/takeaway she was about 17 (two years older than me). She continued to work there and live nearby during the next 20 odd years whilst I moved here, there and everywhere. When I bought my current house, I found she lived directly behind. I’ve been buying Chinese food for over 28 years from this shop. It’s very timey- whimey, therefore, I will have to order Chinese for every debut episode. I think it’s a vault rather than a shop 🙂
@idiotsavon by Future Doctor do you mean the possibility of the new Doctor revealed? That would be unprecedented!
@geoffers I always wondered about how River, as a child, managed to cope? Perhaps on Darilium they discussed how Child River is to be protected. Did anything on Darilium cause the Doctor to make an oath to River? Nardole was in tHoRS and yet wasn’t in the final act (the 24 years etc).
Now, could River have had a baby? I assume this has been thought thru and bashed up as a theory. She has an augmented lifespan, so anything’s possible I suppose. But then, considering she met Doctor 10 in the Library, where he life ends, you’d think that’d be hinted at there. So, not that then! *\*
I’m running out of ideas…..<-_->
Puro11 May 2017 at 03:47 #57339blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave
Puro, I have always believed that River and the Doctor had a baby:
Who that baby was, is another question.11 May 2017 at 03:51 #57340
@thane15 When I read your spelling of “penance” I saw the one “n” and immediately hung my head in shame! But yes, it’s an interesting possibility. The question is, what did he do that was so wrong?
Peter Capaldi Mark 2 in the vault – I would love that.
The Valeyard is also a strong possibility for me, if only because Moffat maybe needs to get him out of the way, if Chibnall is to get a clean start.
What if the Valeyard is the “confusing regeneration issue?” The Doctor regenerates, but his best and worst sides regenerate in separate bodies. Alter egos, in a way (foreshadowed by the comic- book-stylee “Return of Doctor Mysterio” perhaps.)
Maybe the Valeyard’s original incarnation is Evil Capaldi, before he moves on. That would give us Capaldi in the vault, plus Valeyard.
And regarding the Mexican – it doesn’t have to be food. When @mersey suggested that the Tardis might be the prisoner, I realised the “Mexican” was in plastic bags. It could, for all we know, be a whole load of digital information about Mexican culture and history in a range of different universes and timelines. (Filmed first-hand.)
Could it be that the Doctor doesn’t want to tell Bill how many people he killed because he’s ashamed?11 May 2017 at 04:03 #57342
@Thane15 I was thinking more along the lines of Episode-6-Capaldi needs Dr-Mysterio-Capaldi to hatch an egg or whatever.
But New Doctor Revealed is much more interesting…11 May 2017 at 04:47 #57343Anonymous @
Now, this is timey-whimey. I was watching a youtube video of River’s Timeline -in that were some clips of the above.
Interesting: *strokes chin* I like it a lot.
Ah, spelling, it’s the internet! No hanging head in shame needed. Stop immediately! Exterminate all “hung heads” 😀
True, regarding the Doctor’s shame (in not telling Bill: why ruin a beautiful friendship, and again, his shame…) and then connected with the “outrage” comment which is then referred to by Bill, “you’ve never had time for anything else!” – also true.
Valeyard, yes. I agree: strong possibility. But perhaps not in the Vault (I’d love that though!).
Any reveal of the Master and Missy may very well appear near the end of the season. Unless the rumours of a longer regeneration appearing early are to be believed. This Doctor had 13 new regens bestowed.
I felt his Series 8 , brooding and angst filled (a personal favourite!) was one long regeneration -getting his head around his new….head (as it were!) and so I wonder whether this 2000 year old man (I recall that Doctor 9, said to Rose that he was 987 years old) is perhaps going to experience a strange regeneration -perhaps one he can choose, now (TL technology is highly developed on the planet Karn, for example and we know he visited Karn in Season 9).
But this ties in very well with the two doctors -‘white’ or shadowy, evil or good-ish.
Will his Will and Testament be used again?
Oh gosh, you’re right -it could be anything ‘Mexican’ in the bag. @mersey -that’s also interesting. Perhaps a special sonicy way of bringing down a possible ‘Wall’ – The Trump Wall of Shame!?!
Maybe they need to play Pink Floyd’s The Wall in Episode 5 😈
Could it be Doctor 1? Not sure why, but I like it! And is Missy going to do something rather terrifying?
We saw her in The Witches Familiar where she said, amongst the Oncoming Sewers, “I’ve just had a great idea” which could mean she steals the Doctor’s face? Could she try to steal his regenerations? He has a few to give.
Would he try to protect her? Try to reform her? He can’t remember Clara in the Dalek, placed there by Missy to whom he then said: “run!” In the Tardis, on the blackboard, Clara’s words were, “remember: be a Doctor.” Would he attempt to change his friend/enemy/or friend inside an enemy in order to balance the universe, a little, and thus fulfil his “am I a good man?” reflection from Listen?
And someone said above, “is it a child? and is that child Missy’s daughter?”
Questions, questions *-_-*
Puro11 May 2017 at 05:03 #57344Anonymous @
Yes, I see what you mean – a Doctor hidden in order to do ….doctory/ mysterious things -an egg in an egg (or is it a chicken or a ‘Big G’ -Grant). Whenever I think of “big G” I’m reminded of Moriarty’s statement: “hey, Big G” (to the Governor).
Lots of time left for postulations and attempting derivations from what we actually know…..
In fact, what do we know? It’s often as others have said (@jimthefish @pedant @mudlark et.al) “look over here at the shiny.” There’s a lot of distraction and ‘magical’ appearance. And this Doctor has used the word ‘magic’ a lot this season. Grant is a fantastical young man, who distracts and uses sleight of hand to ‘get into costume’ and ‘come to the rescue’.
I get the sense the Doctor has rescued something and placed it in the vault for its protection and yet others may want it -ie the ‘puddle’ being after Bill and a passenger, but not the interior inhabitant of the Vault itself. Certainly, in the Vault, this inhabitant couldn’t help the Doctor. Nardole’s comment: “there’s plenty of things wanting to eat you right here on earth” was provocative.
Everything seems to be hungry this season…..The Pilot: “not everything is evil, but everything is hungry” followed by Smile, where the skeleton crew set up ‘house’ and planted ‘gardens’. The gardens ate the humans (in a manner of speaking).
The alien aquatic creature eats humans (possibly groceries; hats; sonics) and the woodlice “needed to be fed” to keep Mum wooden and “not too rotten.”
Well, this has increased my appetite!
Puro11 May 2017 at 07:49 #57345
@ichabod: It makes him a “good man”.
True, but as he said to Clara – “Goodness, has nothing to do with it.”
Derek Jacobi was a fine Master. He made me shiver.
Puro: I’m running out of ideas.
And I’ve stopped trying. all will be revealed – eventually. I do enjoy reading all the posts though, and Who knows, one of you might be right.
Missy11 May 2017 at 11:09 #57349Whisht @whisht
@frobisher – I think we have the same (poor?) taste in jokes 😉
So, according to those who know here, it seems time is running out on bonkers vault theories so here’s one to throw into the ring.
There has been much mention of ‘hair’ on the aftershow.
Maybe its more than just a throwaway joke though.
And no, I’m not going to suggest that its the Doctor’s hair in the vault (what do you take me for – a fool??).
No, perhaps its…. his heir!11 May 2017 at 12:29 #57352Anonymous @
perhaps its…. his heir!
Now that’s proper bonkers!
A few others also thought that the Doctor’s daughter could be ‘vaulted’ – not to confuse her with ‘The Doctor’s Daughter’ who appeared in Donna’s/Martha’s episode?
@the-key1 welcome to the Forum! Yes that’s a great theory. I personally think Lady Me/Ashildr isn’t a loose end. She got a companion (in Clara) and rather than the Doctor now spying on Ashildr over hundreds of years, he would probably be very happy to see the two of them together. The fact he doesn’t remember Clara -or that Lady Me would be her companion, is still excellent comedic drama, imo. However, it could easily be her, after all! That’s what makes these episodes so enthralling 🙂
(puro)11 May 2017 at 12:56 #57354
At this point, with all the hints dropped in and out of universe, it is most likely The Master/Missy in the vault. But since there’s still the possibility the Doctor is protecting him/her, what is it from? Perhaps that’s the REAL arc this season, especially considering that Missy turns up again in the finale…the first half of which (“World Enough and Time”) has a title derived from Andrew Marvell’s poem “To His Coy Mistress“.11 May 2017 at 13:38 #57355The-key1 @the-key1
Sorry I wasn’t very clear. I meant game of thrones – Samantha Spiro! she has not been listed in any episodes yet!
What if she plays the Valeyard. As we have heard the vault will reveal who soon. But if we have 2 Masters why not 2 Doctors and it gives enough time to develop this in the remaining episodes. There could be a cut back to Matt Smiths regen and you could see the Doctor split. Quote- A thing happened. We never did see him from the top of the tower till inside Tardis. That’s why 11 phoned Clara.. the man I hope your with?? Help him.11 May 2017 at 14:12 #57356
Hunger, now that is interesting and i think your right.
Perhaps whatevers in the vault is going to devour the doctor, perhaps he made a pact with the devil so to speak and promised his essence or soul to someone or something in exchange for something, perhaps saving someone or something.
Either way the idea is certainly interesting.11 May 2017 at 23:59 #57360Pufferfish @pufferfish
If we’re bonkersing, I feel like nobody’s paid attention to that last scene in The Pilot where so far it’s assumed the Doctor/Tardis came directly from the office above. I’m not sure he/it did.12 May 2017 at 02:56 #57361Anonymous @
@pufferfish OK. and if not? Ah, when the Doctor appears in front of Bill -and we assume it came from the office as the Doctor has changed his mind? Mmm. I wonder what that means? He’s been travelling himself? Checking out her history? Deciding to invite her after all? And what changed his mind?
Looking back at the first episode Nardole asks about the Vault (whilst they travel to Sydney) and the Doctor says “if there’s any movement I’ll get a message on this [psychic paper]” so I’m tending to think it’s a Doctor in the Vault -or, I suppose the original thought -a Master/Missy. All the Doctors have their psychic paper so that’s one idea I guess. This fits with your idea @the-key1.
I get the impression it/him/she needs to be stabilised? It’s possibly stuck inside the vault. Not happily, either.
Puro12 May 2017 at 09:56 #57363Mersey @mersey
@thane15 Actually the first Doctor who had psychic paper was 9th.13 May 2017 at 03:05 #57369winston @winston
There are alot of monsters who are not really monsters in this series.Also alot of hungry monsters who just need to eat and just do what they have to do to survive.Sooooo my theory is that the Master is in the vault being protected from Missy. The last time we saw the Master he was very, very hungry because his regeneration went badly and he is insane but that is the fault of the Time Lords using him for their purposes. He saved the Doctors life( and the earth) in the end so the Doctor may feel he owes him the same and this Doctor has even more reason to hate the Time Lords and how they play with the lives of others. So I think the Doctor is helping the Master recover from his fight with Rassilon while stopping Missy from getting to him.That would be a bad pair. That is my bonkers theory.13 May 2017 at 03:18 #57370Kharis @kharis
idiotsavon Wow, not sure that is bonkers but downright interesting. It would go with my metacrisis theory, it also helps justify my pipe dream that it’s the 8th Doctor. (;13 May 2017 at 03:41 #57371blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave
I really like that theory! In spite of himself, he feels he owes a lot to the Master…and at this point Missy is more unpredictable. Yes, all that makes sense!13 May 2017 at 08:10 #57378
Hey @pufferfish, the idea that the Doctor may have spent time traveling elsewhere between those last two scenes in “The Pilot” isn’t farfetched — or unprecedented. The idea floated that the Ninth Doctor had a much longer life than depicted on screen was the basis for the short story “The Beast of Babylon” (from the 50th anniversary anthology 11 Doctors 11 Stories). According to it, between his briefly leaving Rose then coming back again in the final scene of “Rose”, Nine traveled for about 100 years, mostly alone. In the short story, he takes on a temporary companion — I won’t say why it had to be temporary — but she learns that he kind of misses Rose and recommends he return to her for further travels. And so it goes.
(Later, the anthology added the Twelfth Doctor story “Lights Out”, which is strongly suggested to take place between “Deep Breath” and “Into the Dalek”, explaining why he was away so long getting the coffee for Clara.)
@ichabod and @missy, I think the Doctor is at hearts a good man. (There’s some interesting discussion of this in the “A New Kind of Hero” featurette on the “Return of Doctor Mysterio” DVD.) Thing is — especially with Twelve — as the musical Into the Woods puts it, “Nice is different than good.” Sometimes, the way to get the most-good outcome is to do a lot of less than nice things, to be less than tender with people’s feelings. And…well, I think going back to Series 8, Twelve isn’t nice to all those poor souls who end up in the Nethersphere, but Missy is. “Nice” can easily fill a hole where “good” would otherwise be.
(Deposits $0.02)13 May 2017 at 11:56 #57384
@winston At the end of Last of the Time Lords, the tenth Doctor resolves to keep the Master in the Tardis, saying “It’s time to change. Maybe I’ve been wandering too long. Now I’ve got someone to care for.” The Master is then shot by his wife so it doesn’t happen, but keeping the Master is, we have seen, something the Doctor would do.
@thane15 Good point about hunger as a theme. And with humans the preferred foodstuff, I’m becoming worried about the precise nature of that Mexican the Doctor brought.
@pufferfish I think there’s been quite an emphasis so far this series on the fact that one can go off adventuring in the Tardis and be back “before the kettle boils.” The Doctor has already gone off in secret to take photos of Bill’s mum, so it’s perfectly possible he took a detour on the way down from the office. Good point!14 May 2017 at 03:33 #57427winston @winston14 May 2017 at 06:59 #57438
@missrori Twelve isn’t nice to all those poor souls who end up in the Nethersphere, but Missy is. “Nice” can easily fill a hole where “good” would otherwise be.
Spot-on. The Doctor’s focus is on doing good; he rarely seems concerned at all with “being nice”, which makes a great deal of sense since there’s often not time or space for niceness in an emergency situation, and many of the series’ villains often start off seeming quite nice (even the Landlord, who is both “nice” and creepy, brilliantly done by David Suchet).14 May 2017 at 09:13 #57441
@ichabod Exactly. People with guns to their heads can’t mourn!
Twelve especially doesn’t regard himself as a good man, but rather an idiot who’s still learning. But more than he has in a while, he is willing to accept that he can’t always be nice, that his good intentions sometimes have bad consequences he has to cope with, and that he can’t be selfish and must put others first (these themes also appear in Into the Woods). He tries, and that’s the important thing. 😉14 May 2017 at 21:16 #57476AlexWho @alexwho
Knock Knock re-aired before Oxygen last night. David Suchet’s performance is even better on the second viewing 🙂15 May 2017 at 04:42 #5749917 May 2017 at 04:46 #57576
@thane15: So sorry, I meant to answer your pst to me – I forgot, but now I’ve remembered. *grin*
I think that Bill is definitely curious but knows when to stop? Last week, she said “you’ve been holding out on me, do you have, like, magic whaling powers? and then immediately after says, “or is that a personal question?” I believe she’s curious and self aware but also, considering her own situation, can be necessarily cautious and respectful. She knows where to draw the line at ‘too many questions’ in my opinion.
You are probably right, I just judged her by what I would have done in her place. Wanting to know who and what he was, his planet, why he’s called a Time Lord etcetera. But then again, perhaps in her situation and her age, I wouldn’t have – who nose.
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