Last Christmas

[Barbara Lefty @barbaralefty]

@purofilion, what no entendre? Aw, just give us one! 😉

Ahem, but to keep things strictly on topic, I agree with @blenkinsopthebrave. It’s not that I’m not a fan of the bonkerising, but I think there is plenty of scope for it within series, while allowing the Christmas special to stand alone, a bit anyway.

On the other hand, what *are* we going to do now till after summer? Xx

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@nine9 @bluesqueakpip @purofilion

 I really think that it should do much more and bring characters back as well.

Well, I suppose if you are going to be wrong you might as well be comprehensively wrong.

“Meme” was a term coined by Richard Dawkins for, as stated above, an idea, behavior, or style that spreads from person to person within a culture. It was purposefully analogous to “gene” as a way of describe how information spreads.

Unfortunately, in this specific case, “meme” is exactly analogous to “troll bait”. So it’s like a defective (ge)meme. Which, alas, is what a perfectly harmless 60s Who serial has become. I wish the Zarbis got so much attention. At least that would be funny rather than deeply, deeply, tedious.

[Nine9 @nine9]

I really deeply apologise for having an opinion and that that same opinion bothers you so much.

My observations are that the episode is very well written, it manages to both give the chills and has fantastical moments of hilarity. A mix that I would never associate but it worked tremendously well (thanks to a wonderful writer). I liked a lot the interaction between Santa and Twelve, it reminded me of the rivalrly between Robin Hood and Twelve, which never fails to entertain.

Other theories would involve The Fires of Pompeii but I haven’t developed as many points to ‘prove’ my theory plausible.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@blenkinsopthebrave

But if that is too straight-forward an explanation, then you could also see Clara as the audience. In fact, all the companions, in their own way, are representitive of the audience for the show–they have their Doctor, who they travel with, until they wake up from the dream, and find other interests. Sort of like when we become too sophisticated to believe in Santa. But then we realise (perhaps because we become parents and see the wonder of Santa though the children’s eyes, or perhaps because we re-connect with the small child lurking inside of us all) that Santa (and the Doctor) is something worth believing in again. Even though we know it isn’t “real”.

I think this may be Moffat’s best Christmas special yet. He really is a brilliant writer.

 

Very well said indeed. I think ‘re discussion of the significance of the tangerine on the window sill at the end, it is not a plot device but a direct nod to the audience, a meta comment. This is a family show after all. That tangerine is there for the viewers who do still believe in Santa (ie the younger members of the family) and those who have re-connected with “the small child lurking inside of us all). It is there to remind us that when we watch fiction we suspend disbelief and for a moment we can believe in Santa again. (because deep down we all want to just as much as the people in the dream state did.)

Cheers

Janette

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@nine9

Thank you for opening up the conversation.

I am beginning to wonder whether part of the reason for the Robin Hood episode was to introduce the audience to the idea that characters who are fictional in our universe might be real in the Whoniverse.

This means that we can’t be sure whether or not Santa is real – in fact, even by the end of the episode, we’re still not sure whether Santa is somehow real, since Shona, Fiona and Ashley were all in the dreams and yet were also real.

Yes, the rivalry between Santa and the Doctor was very like the rivalry between Robin Hood and the Doctor. For the same reason, I think. This incarnation of the Doctor hates being the guest star in someone else’s legend.

[lisa @lisa]

I’ve been thinking about @blenkinsopthebrave ‘s post about it just being Clara’s dream- yes and no. Yes a lot
of the details fit but no because at the end @bluesqueakpip pointed out that Clara still needed real rescuing from the Doctor. So now I’m theorizing that it was more than just Clara having a kooky dream. Also it may have even been the Doctors dream? BTW the notion that Missy’s coordinated this with her coordinates sending the Doctor into the dream crab nest is probably rubbish but I sort of like it anyway. just saying…

[nerys @nerys]

@bluesqueakpip It’s just that, it being Christmas, and having seen her family visit her – I’m guessing that this time, she’s at her Dad’s. The Christmas tree has a family sized group of presents around it and the house is much too big for one person – but about right for Dad, Stepmum, Gran living-in and a guest-room for Clara to visit.

I think you are correct, that Clara is at her dad’s … or at least dreaming that she’s there (depending on when the dream actually starts). When she and Danny are downstairs, snuggling on the couch, there’s a knock on the door (this turns out to be the Doctor). As Clara is getting up to answer the door, Danny asks Clara if it’s her dad, and she nods, then says not to get him started on golf. So Clara’s father’s house is indeed the setting for Clara’s dreamscape with Danny.

[Nine9 @nine9]

@bluesqueakpip

I am beginning to wonder whether part of the reason for the Robin Hood episode was to introduce the audience to the idea that characters who are fictional in our universe might be real in the Whoniverse.

I am not sure that just any work of fiction could be introduced as real in Who. I think the Whoniverse works as every other show. Their universe is the one that represents ‘reality’ and every other work of fiction remains fiction in that universe as well. So making Robin Hood real in this universe was a risk but it was also a very pleasant surprise. Moffat told Gatiss to write a story that involves Robin Hood and Robots… maybe he didn’t give him further details and it wasn’t his intention to turn Robin a real person, maybe it was Gatiss’ idea and Moffat simply accepted it afterwords because in a strange way it worked well?
But also Robin Hood’s words “I am as real as you are” really did raise some questions.

This means that we can’t be sure whether or not Santa is real – in fact, even by the end of the episode, we’re still not sure whether Santa is somehow real, since Shona, Fiona and Ashley were all in the dreams and yet were also real.

Making Santa Claus real in the Who universe or in any universe would be terribly wrong. He cannot be real. By the end of the episode we are left to ask ourselves if they are still dreaming or if anything of what happened was real. It could also be Missy behind all that.
If we are taking, for example, the road where we affirm that none of that was real, Shona, Fiona and Ashley would all be fictitious. Implanted in The Doctor’s mind.

This incarnation of the Doctor hates being the guest star in someone else’s legend.

I think that The Doctor doesn’t like being wrong/not knowing. Especially if it’s something as big as a whole planet believing that a person is fiction while, in actuality, is real.

[janetteB @janetteb]

I think the house is just an idealised house, the kind of house Clara would like to live in and not necessarily any particular house. I really must watch again to see that final scene again, if it is the same house but  I don’t think it was clear at the time because I was on the lookout for that. Likewise the presents under the tree are part of her dream and of course one would dream a lot of presents, or at least, I would. Likewise there is an open fire; an emblem of warmth and comfort rather than the more prosaic, dreary central heating unit. The open fire was one of the motifs of the dream. I am not sure that Clara’s step-mother would tolerate an open fire, “smoky, messy things.” Christmas being about family it is fairly natural that she would think of her father, hoping to see him but without the annoying step-mother and of course that sets up the Doctor as father figure which I think will define their relationship in the next series.

@bluesqueakpip

This means that we can’t be sure whether or not Santa is real – in fact, even by the end of the episode, we’re still not sure whether Santa is somehow real, since Shona, Fiona and Ashley were all in the dreams and yet were also real.

Moffat was never going to outright say that Santa was or wasn’t real just as we never will know, (I suspect) if the monster in Listen was real. Ambiguity is one of the strengths, pleasures or torments, (depending upon personal preference I suppose) of his writing.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@nine9 I think you are forgetting that the series is not written for aging fans who have been watching since Hartnell but for fans ranging from age four to 104. The existance of Santa must at least be presented as a possibility and not least for the older fans too because at Christmas we all, regardless of age, want to believe in the existance of a person who has a vehicle that is bigger on the inside and defies the nomal laws of time.

Cheers

Janette

[Nine9 @nine9]

@janetteb

just as we never will know, (I suspect) if the monster in Listen was real.

It was very much implied that the monster in Listen is not a monster at all and therefore is not real. It is all a product of a child’s imagination.

[nerys @nerys]

@nine9 Making Santa Claus real in the Who universe or in any universe would be terribly wrong. He cannot be real. By the end of the episode we are left to ask ourselves if they are still dreaming or if anything of what happened was real. It could also be Missy behind all that.

I disagree … but then that’s what opinions are all about. My perception of that ending was that it was Santa Claus who orchestrated the whole thing to reunite Clara and the Doctor, so that they could repair their Gift of the Magi lies to one another. The tangerine, Santa’s favorite gift, is his calling card. The fact that it was left on the window for us to see tells me he is “real” … or, at least, as real as things get in the Whoniverse. After all, Santa Claus did tell the Doctor, “Before this Christmas Day is done, you will be glad of my help.” And wasn’t he? I think so. He and Clara, both.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@nine9 It is left to the veiwer to read that as they will, after all no rational explanation is given for the moving chalk. Moffat ensures that we can never be entirely certain one way or the other.

Cheers

Janette

[Nine9 @nine9]

@janetteb I don’t know a single person that actually wants Santa to be real. Just because kids are taught to believe in him doesn’t mean that it should be made real. As you said, it’s a show for everyone, it’s not a kids show.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@nine9 I said that we like to occasionally suspend disbelief, after all isn’t that what we do whenever we sit in front of a TV screen or pick up a book, and what parents wouldn’t want there to be a kindly person who delivers presents to our children every Christmas. Think of the savings!! (not to mention an early night on Christmas eve.)

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @janetteb]

or as @blenkinsopthebrave said

But then we realise (perhaps because we become parents and see the wonder of Santa though the children’s eyes, or perhaps because we re-connect with the small child lurking inside of us all) that Santa (and the Doctor) is something worth believing in again. Even though we know it isn’t “real”.

Cheers

Janette

 

[Nine9 @nine9]

@nerys

My perception of that ending was that it was Santa Claus who orchestrated the whole thing to reunite Clara and the Doctor, so that they could repair their Gift of the Magi lies to one another.

You forget that Clara was supposed to be written off in this episode and that Jenna changed her mind on her staying longer during the production, so Moffat was led to rewrite the ending in the last minute. Moffat had already planned the basic plot for the ninth season by that time which didn’t include Clara (obviously). So if he changed the meaning of the episode into that Santa Claus wanted to reunite Clara and Twelve it would change the whole plot of the next series.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@nine9 That is speculation not fact. One dubious news source claimed that JC was quitting and they may have simply been wrong.

Cheers

Janette

[Nine9 @nine9]

@janetteb On the contrary to what people usually think, Santa Claus is not an entity that all cultures believe in. Doctor Who is meant to approach everyone. Making Santa real automatically excludes a portion of people.
Besides Doctor Who is a science fiction show, not a fable.

[Nine9 @nine9]

@janetteb Both Jenna and Moffat confirmed that she wanted to leave and that later on she changed her mind. Jenna talks about it in the Extra of “Last Christmas”

[nerys @nerys]

@nine9 I’m not sure the point is really whether any of us wants Santa Claus to be real. I think many of us are happy to entertain the “what if” fantasy of Santa Claus being real, which is a nice bit of escapism from the drudgery (and worse) of our world. I can think of things far worse than wanting Santa Claus to be real. And I think part of the magic of Christmas, for adults, is enjoying the belief of children. That was something this episode portrayed quite effectively, for me.

As for Jenna leaving, I haven’t seen the extra you refer to, so I could very well be wrong about this. But I felt that these rumors were nothing more than that, rumors planted in the media to build up anticipation over how the Christmas special would be resolved.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@nine9 Not all cultures have access to Dr Who either and I think you will find that most cultures are aware of Santa/Father Christmas even if they don’t celebrate Christmas. (I saw plenty of Santa images in Istanbul for instance.) Secondly if JC confirmed that she was intending to leave then I am wrong but you forget that not all of us have acess to “Extra” (maybe) including @nerys. In future don’t make assumptions about either what other people think or what they know and you will find your comments are generally more apprecaited here.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @janetteb]

sorry (mods please delete this post.)

[Nine9 @nine9]

@nerys What I liked the most about this episode is that is far from Christmas-y. Moffat’s take on Who has since the beginning been more mature. And I really don’t believe that with this episode he wanted to make people question is Santa Claus is real (whether adults enjoy in children’s beliefs or not).

[Nine9 @nine9]

@janetteb All the Extras are on youtube.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@nine9 There is a difference between believing in something and enjoying the suspension of disbelief. I for one would have been very disappointed has this episode not allowed for that but this is a Moffat story and you can read it differently to me because Moffat’s writing allows for that.

cheers

Janette

 

so it is our fault that we haven’t seen Extra is it and not just you being rude?

[Nine9 @nine9]

In future don’t make assumptions about either what other people think or what they know and you will find your comments are generally more apprecaited here.

I am not the one making assumptions here.

And I love that my comments are not appreciated for simply making a statement that Santa Claus is not real.

I shouldn’t have bothered of coming here in the first place.

Adios.

[lisa @lisa]

About the use of the chalkboards – I can imagine that the chalkboards in the Tardis are being used
as a form of a 2 way communication attempting to have conversations and/or send messages to perhaps
other time lords psychically in the same manner that he was using them to communicate with Clara in
the hallway in the house. In other words maybe the chalkboards in the Tardis are a sort of time lord
‘sorcery’ trick being implemented by our favorite magician. Not just working out his ideas and concepts
by himself in isolation but a bit like ET phoning home maybe.
How’s that for a bonkers theory!

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@nine9

Jenna talks about it in the Extra of “Last Christmas”

Total horseshit. There was absolutely nothing that could remotely be interpreted that way in the Extra.

Do you think nobody here watched it?

@craig @jimthefish – one to keep an eye on.

[nerys @nerys]

@nine9 And I love that my comments are not appreciated for simply making a statement that Santa Claus is not real.

I don’t think that’s the problem. I think it’s more an issue of stating opinion as fact. You said that “Making Santa Claus real in the Who universe or in any universe would be terribly wrong. He cannot be real.” That may well be your opinion, and I respect your opinion. You have every right to it, just as each one of us does. Consider this: There are many people who believe in God or a Higher Power given some other name. There has long been a conflict between science and spirituality, because there is precious little in the spiritual world that can be scientifically proven. Yet people still believe, and those beliefs are very real to them.

We face a similar dilemma in this whole question of whether Santa Claus is real. To many children, he certainly is. So why would it be “terrible” to make Santa Claus real in the Whoniverse? After all, the Whoniverse is populated by countless other fictional characters we enjoy watching … and, to varying degrees, believing in. Not necessarily as being “real” … but as being worthwhile pursuits for our imaginations, intellects and emotions.

[Arbutus @arbutus]

@nine9 @janetteb @nerys

In my view, the tangerine on the window was meant to allow the audience (and most importantly, the children in the audience) to believe if they choose to that Santa was real. There was no way that Moffat was ever going to write a Christmas episode, knowing that many families watch with small children, and have it shown that Santa is not real. Whether or not people of all ages or cultures “believe” in Santa isn’t the point. I don’t think it’s the job of Moffat or the BBC to tailor their show to accommodate people in other parts of the world. If they choose to embrace the show, great, but it is a British show first and foremost. I say this as a non-Brit who doesn’t mind absorbing a little unfamiliar British culture now and then– “Merry Christmas Everybody” gets entirely no airplay here as far as I am aware. I have learned, however, that it is a big Christmas deal in the motherland.  🙂

We have discussed at length on this forum the issue of DW as science fiction, and I think most of us would agree that there is a strong element of fantasy running throughout the show and has been for a long time. In any case, in a Christmas special, the rules are often different. When I watch the film “Miracle on 34th Street”, in which Edmund Gwenn is strongly implied to actually be the real Santa, I accept that as part of the reality of the film. It is not meant to be a realistic film. (*Whispers, so as not to upset the fandom* Neither is Doctor Who.)   😉

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

Much more important than anything else, LindaLee has spoken:

 

(@Juniperfish – I know you especially like to check these out. She seems fully recovered now!)

[nerys @nerys]

OK, here’s the link to the “Last Christmas” extra (which, by the way, is lots of fun, so I thank @nine9 for mentioning it). I watched it all the way through but didn’t hear anything about Jenna staying or going, so there must be another extra that I’ve missed? Dunno.

@arbutus In my view, the tangerine on the window was meant to allow the audience (and most importantly, the children in the audience) to believe if they choose to that Santa was real. There was no way that Moffat was ever going to write a Christmas episode, knowing that many families watch with small children, and have it shown that Santa is not real.

Absolutely, I agree. Fantasy is clearly a basis for most, if not all, of Doctor Who. So why not include Santa Claus within a fantastical realm? I think he fits perfectly in that “what if” world.

[nerys @nerys]

By the way, when I talk about something being “real” or believing in Doctor Who, it’s not that I think I’ll bump into the Doctor or one of those characters on the street one day. It’s not that kind of reality. But I do believe in some of the basic truths the stories convey.

One episode, in particular, stands out to me because I consider it the one that made me a Doctor Who fan: “Midnight” from Season 4. The special effects are sparse; the eerie atmosphere is achieved largely through great acting. We learn that the worst does not always bring out the best in people; that’s a hard truth to face about human nature, because it means we have to wonder what we would do in this situation. Even though this frightening idea is conveyed through fictional characters, the message is powerful because we care about the Doctor. (And, to tie this in with “Last Christmas”: David Troughton, who was in “Midnight,” is the brother of Michael Troughton, who was in “Last Christmas” … and of course they are both sons of Patrick Troughton, Doctor No. 2.)

I think this is often a difficult concept to tackle. For some, “real” means tangible, completely grounded in reality. But I think it can also mean vivid, or deeply felt, and stories can help us experience that and sort it out. As @arbutus so eloquently put it, in this episode we’re allowed to make our own choices about what we consider to be real. That’s what I mean about finding truth in fiction, and believing in that truth (even though it’s fiction). I know, that’s probably as clear as mudflaps!

[janetteB @janetteb]

@nerys Perfectly clear. Hopefully we have put the troll to rest. I no longer have steam ejecting from my ears after a couple of glasses of excellent Barossa Alicante. I too will now go and watch Extra. It sounds as though from your comment and @pedant‘s that our “fantasy hating friend” didn’t expect us to either be willing or able to watch it.

In the end however there is no “right or wrong” in this discussion. Moffat very deliberately wrote this story in such as way as to leave that to the viewer to choose. Having opposing views as to whether a being to can traverse the world in a single night in vessel that defys the laws of time and space exists within the world of Dr Who or not is fine as long as we respect each other’s views, as we all do, on this wonderful site. Personally I am happy to believe in Santa just as much as I believe in the Doctor. (And I have long been of the opinion that Santa/Father Christmas is a time lord and longing for the tv series to explain that.) Also in the first AG series Rose does at one point make a comment the like of “you are not Santa”. He responds with a reference to the bike she received when she was nine(I think) implying that the Doctor himself is Santa/Father Christmas. RTD implied also that the patriachial solstice saint was real and if not the Doctor was at the least a time lord.

Cheers

Janette

 

[IdrisTardis @idristardis]

i thourghly enjoyed this as this is my actual 2nd chrissy special. i loved the whole dream with in a dream thing and loved that i was like all happy one minute on the edge of my seat the next minute. i have being watching since about 2011 n the tv series but never really saw the chrissy specails. i think moffat has done a brillant job though some things to me might not have made sence watching for the first time like the face hugger reference ehich was refered to the movie aliens. to me not nessacery but kinda added a moment in which i could have possibly luaghed had it possibly being worked better as i havent seen the alien movie for quite some time now. over all i think moffat has done a great job even though same of as may say his storys arent allways the best

[janetteB @janetteb]

@barbaralefty

On the other hand, what *are* we going to do now till after summer? Xx

Now that is a very important question. I think we need to discuss this over on The Sofa as I am not sure if our wondeful mods have anything planned for 2015 and as you say, it is going to be a very long wait, after our summer and your summer. 🙂

Cheers

Janette

 

[Rob @rob]

Hi All 🙂

Well absolutely brilliantly fantastic and with small orangeous fruits that may have been Satsumas/Tangerines/Clementines/Kumquats/Mandarins/Minneolas (see how I slipped one in there especially for @purofilion )

I must echo @bluesqueakpip post #36511 and say what struck me was how the victims (whose back story was known or alluded to) of the Dream Crabs were those who would go with a dream to make life bearable.

Now someone is touting for a place high up on the naughty list so lets address the reality of Father Christmas.

Clara stays with him she needs his magic more than any other protagonist (in my opinion, other opinions are available just not necessarily correct …. hehehe).

The Doctor awakens goes to find Clara and she is ‘grand old Clara’ we have a 180 degree shift for both the Doctor and Clara from The Time of the Doctor, crackers and all.

Father Santamas not only has a sleigh bigger on the inside (foreshadowed by the Doctor once having pockets bigger on the inside) but by the very nature of present delivery (and therefore in all probability criss-cross’s his own timeline continuously every 24th December) is far more astute at managing micro-time than your common garden Timelords and thus a gift for the Doctor and or Clara (I think purely for the Doctor though as Clara had enjoyed her life post Doctor). Clara’s reaction to being wakened for the second time was ”Am I still old?”

The kicker being the tangerine appearing on the windowsill

On the Celestrial Toymaker, he has already returned to the Whoniverse…….. What did 12 spend the majority of his time doing in Christmas?????

Remember timey-wimey is time flowing in all directions at different speeds at all times or not 😉

[Anonymous @]

@janetteb @nerys @pedant  goodness, that was a bit yuck!  You all did extremely well with our fleeting friend: fleet of foot and not much else.  I am now watching this ep for the 2nd time -I know, a slacker, and all, but I actually missed the first 20 seconds when Clara hopped out of her bed -the first time- and indeed, the bedroom lamp is different. Mmm. I know youse guys referred to this before.

@arbutus  beautiful post above!

The tangerine left on the window I believe is as you said. Interesting that I had no idea, fruit -in particular the satsuma & tangerines – were left in a stocking until the first Christmas Special! I used to put oranges with cloves in (yep, so thick I’m boiling)

Having a Happy Christmas I hope?  And you @Janette, have you seen The Hobbit yet? 🙂

@nerys I missed you here recently – bringing in the NY with resounding song and parties?

The score in this ep, thus far, is not overpowering but subtle and mysterious.

Kindest to all, puro

[Anonymous @]

@rob our posts criss-crossed as time!  Good call on the micro-time managing of the astute Santamas. Thank you for the fruit.

I still love the line  “we’re dealing with creatures which weaponised our dreams against us!” And I do love Capaldi’s change of tone or voice . His surety? It gives great comfort.

 

[Anonymous @]

@bluesqueakpip  Yes meme. I was just thinking of those newspapers which would almost certainly bend it like time -and not in a recognisable way. In one of the places I worked this year, we had a bunch of newly minted English teachers (three actually) , one of which pronounced it ‘maim’ and the other ‘maymay’

I do believe they thought it French!

They were quite tickled to be distributing such refined material: it was an infamous Romeo and Juliet film which I don’t much like.

[Rob @rob]

Surely meme in french would be pronounced moimoi???????????

[Anonymous @]

@nine9 I add -and don’t leave please – that when you suggested that the Doctor ‘hates not knowing’ I believe this isn’t the case. In fact, on many occasions, in this past year, and in Smith’s incarnation, we had the Doctor excited about ‘not knowing.’ Sometimes he’s thrilled to be wrong. So are most of us -on occasion, provided the truth blossoms directly.

@janetteb @barbaralefty  I don’t know about you, but I’ll be watching Breaking Bad (Chrim present) and Buffy (or The Buffster to some. Not me of course, I’m so machure) and a whole lot of Series 8 (Who) which was received specially with Tardis sounds. I recall @bluesqueakpip mentioning that her copy arrived on the doorstep, also with sounds. I thought this was an extra extra Special Edition!  But then, in unpacking the plastic -with my teeth, it started ‘playing’.

@jimthefish -or was it another Forum member altogether?

I’ve been doing an on line mad dash (and JB Hi-Fi) for The Last Kiss Goodnight. I see it’s either not Region 4 or else it’s Blu-ray. So I patiently search. It may not make it into the 12 Days of Christmas Viewing -maybe an Easter re-watch? Part of our viewing, oddly, was To Kill A Mockingbird. Possibly the first time in film History that the word ‘hey’ was used as hello?

Just finished my second watch of LC. How lovely; words can’t describe how I felt seeing it again.  Twelve’s huge grin holding the reins and zooming past all the iconic sights in London was super. Shona’s flat (I know their names now) and her ‘Itinerary’: wonderful elastic scales and arpeggios played in contrary motion @arbutus  -that’s the way I’d sum up Last Christmas.  🙂

@mudlark  how did you find Last Christmas? I recall you saying you were possibly out of town but you had it set to record?

 

[IdrisTardis @idristardis]

@purofilion same take it u have the collectors eddition of seasson.

 

@Jannetteb same might fill that empty void with doctor who as i got 3 new dvds for christmas along with seSon 8 as a late birthday pressie for myself

[IdrisTardis @idristardis]

@purofilion same take it u have the collectors eddition of seasson.   @janetteb same might fill that empty void with doctor who as i got 3 new dvds for christmas along with seSon 8 as a late birthday pressie for myself

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@purofilion    In the event I was permitted to watch it on Christmas Day, though I received some funny looks.  Unfortunately circumstances made it difficult to concentrate, so I wasn’t able to appreciate it properly at the time.  It might have been the distraction of a puppy with very large paws bouncing round the room, or the small cat curled up on my head*, but the fact that I was semi-comatose following consumption of a very large Christmas dinner and a good deal of excellent wine had rather more to do with it.

It was a couple of days before I had the opportunity to view it properly, and I still haven’t had time to read through people’s reactions here, but I hope to be able to gather my thoughts and see if there is anything I can add to the discussion later today.

In the meantime, and in brief, I thoroughly enjoyed it and, for me at least, it ranks as the best of the Christmas specials to date.

*strictly speaking, the cat was partly on my head, partly on the back of the sofa.

 

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@janetteb

I am not sure that Clara’s step-mother would tolerate an open fire, “smoky, messy things.”

This is one of those cultural differences things. The Clean Air Act means that having an open fire in the UK is a) relatively rare and b) aspirational. It’s like having an Aga.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@purofilion yes we saw the Hobbit on Saturday. It was very good. I am hoping to go back and see it again while it is still in cinemas but this time in 2d. (I find 3d distracting and often distorting.)

I too love the scene when the Doctor is flying the sleigh. I am certain that PC was really enjoying himself in that one. I felt that not only has this incarnation of the Doctor finally found his “skin” but that PC is really comfortable in the role.

@rob. Good to hear from you.

@mudlark  I am glad that you got to watch the episode and hope the cat enjoyed it. Most important.

@nerys I was too distracted with the “discussion” to say how much I like your idea that “Santa/Father Christmas orchestrated the entire dream thing in order to get the Doctor and Clara back together in the Tardis.

The question as to whether JC intended to leave or not is really not relevant to the story that we have. I doubt she ever was thinking of leaving but even if she were it is the story that we have now that matters not what might have been. Like any TV script writer Moffat knows that at any time an actor might pull out and scripts must be changed accordingly. No writer has absolute control over the story in tv.

 

[janetteB @janetteb]

@bluesqueakpip I actually thought open fires in the UK were a thing of the past, (like orphanges) which reinforced to me anyway the dream like nature of those scenes. Whenever I travelled in the UK I only ever encountered the fake, gas variety which put out no heat at all. I was surprised in my youth to discover that camp fires are not the done thing either. So much for playing out “the Famous Five” then.

Cheers

Janette

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@janetteb

I doubt she ever was thinking of leaving but even if she were it is the story that we have now that matters not what might have been.

Quite.

I suspect that she always had the option to leave at this point, just as Peter Capaldi had a one-year contract for this first year. Peter Capaldi because it was a big risk (both for him and for the BBC) and an older Doctor might not have worked. Jenna Coleman because – while I’m pretty sure Moffat cast her with his ideas for the next Doctor in mind – she and Peter had never worked together.

So the story line for Series 8 was planned with the possibility in mind that Jenna might take up her option to leave. But at some point after she confirmed she was staying, they decided it would be fun – with that storyline – to spread the rumour that she really was leaving.

I’m going to take a slightly different tangent to @juniperfish‘s ‘Clara as daughter/grandaughter’ idea. I think Clara’s the Doctor’s daughter – but emotionally, metaphorically, not biologically. We saw in The Name of The Doctor that she really was born only because she had to be born – to save the Doctor. The Doctor is the person who is truly responsible for Clara’s existence.

He’s her Space Dad. He’s the reason she was born.

[Since it turns out that Missy is the Woman in The Shop, she’s equally responsible. Essentially, Clara is the ‘daughter’ of the Doctor and Missy. 😯

Which is why they both call her ‘My Clara’. ]

Looking at the storyline in that light, you can see how it repeats and repairs the story of his first granddaughter. Susan travels with the Doctor – but while he thinks he’s looking after her, she’s actually trying to look after him. She’s his ‘child carer’.

She falls in love, he lets her go to live a normal life – by leaving her behind, on Earth, with her boyfriend. And a promise of return. But he didn’t – he stayed away, for centuries.

With Clara, she’s his ‘daughter’, she acts as his ‘carer’ (an adult, this time), she falls in love.

It’s pretty obvious throughout that the Doctor (this time) doesn’t think the new boyfriend is good enough for his Clara; he doesn’t think Danny’s that smart (PE). He also doesn’t think Danny can be trusted (he dragged Rory on board – but he kicks Danny off. When he’s thinking of something to distract Clara, his first thought is of Danny having an affair).

But, Clara is determined – and like Susan, the struggle between staying with Danny and staying with the Doctor is tearing her apart. So, he tries to repeat the same action he took with Susan. He leaves her for her own good.

The final dream-scene with Old Clara is probably the Doctor’s dream, because it repeats what he’s done with Susan, with Sarah Jane, with the Brig and with Jo (we only saw the reunion with Jo in the Sarah Jane Adventures). He leaves them for their own good (maybe not the Brig) and then he stays away until they’re old.

And it’s a mistake.

But this time, with Clara, he gets the chance to repair that mistake.

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