Last Christmas
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janetteB 9 months, 4 weeks ago.
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6 January 2015 at 01:00 #37013
@barbaralefty — Oh, *lots* of sugar, must go straight to energy to drink your coffee like that and end up with a body like a 6′ stepladder. It would *take* a face crab to get to sleep after a dose like that.
*Love* your addition to Obscuritantarian lore — or are they “Oscurritantes”, sort of Latinized like “Los Penitentes” who haul real great big wooden crosses around up near the hill villages at Easter round here? What brilliant, otherworldly Newton discovered the Law of Brevity, do you think? Was there — a tangerine involved (in this case meaning a piece of fruit, not a person from Tangiers)(or maybe not?)? And how long did it take her? How many tangerines had to fall on her head (oh, *definitely* fruit, not the other thing) before she “got” it?
Also like your take on Clara more or less forcing D to come save her from brain-eating dreams; that’s our girl.
The Dub-step Dalek? Has someone come up with that music over on the music thread? *Why not*?
I’d prefer Shona, but would be happy with Ashley — or both? Too much, with Clara? Which one brings the tarot deck (somebody has to bring a tarot deck).(Except, no — they’d just get it all wrong; most people do . . . Faget I said that)?
6 January 2015 at 01:25 #37015Yes, that is my take – Ashley’s life is full of the trappings of success, but emotionally and intellectually empty.
Bonkers theories are rather the mission statement around here!
6 January 2015 at 01:25 #37016@purofilion I think it’s a form of — waking up?! What??? Blasted face huggers! Never trust a (face) hug, it’s just a way to eat your brain . . .
I’m not in the UK but in the American Southwest, though I’m often still up at 1 a.m. It’s the other thing — basically, a health issue at home (not mine but SO’s) has been festering since diagnosis in 2005, and I pretty much gave up and moved it all out of the house early last summer so that one of us, at least, might actually survive the experience. House to myself, lots of sleep and shuffling around making coffee at all hours, but now brain connections are coming to life with all of the energy of an escape at last from the unwanted but necessary “job” of, essentially, running a 24 hour clinic for one patient. And I’ve begun weaning self off a mild dose of tranqs, so that probably contributes, too.
Hence, butterflies (thanks for that image, sleeping @whisht) and confetti. At least, I think that’s what’s going on.
Hey, is a conversation like this okay here? Should it go someplace else? It’s not, strictly speaking, about “Last Christmas”, is it.
6 January 2015 at 08:51 #37021Anonymous @
6 January 2015 at 20:15 #37025Danny has died three no four times, so he may still yet return……. well 99.999999% not
Death One, was to destroy Clara to get her to try dealing woth the Doctor ( using the Timelord techno copy Dream Crab) The accident orchestrated by Missy in this theory
Death Two, Cyber Danny deals with his PTSD (has already planned to try and save the boy) and then sacrifices himself and the Cyber army to save the world
Death Three, he saves the boy by not returning
Death Four, he heals Clara and the Doctor, he started off as a dream but the real Danny broke through to make Clata choose life. As Santa was real both within the dream and outside of it (tangerine on the sill) so Danny was Dream-Danny and Real-Danny within the dream
Ahhh Coffee
ps what is the average age for trolls ? That last one must have been 56 plus if anything posted was true….. doh
6 January 2015 at 22:07 #37028Ok, not quite sure where best to pose this question, but since Last Christmas was the finale of Series 8 (well, I consider it to be the real finale) I shall put it here and let our gracious mods kick it elsewhere if necessary 🙂
So, having now seen all of the episodes and then looking back at the various trailers for Series 8 before any episodes aired I can’t help but notice there are some scenes that have never actually appeared in any of the episodes. I won’t go into detail here in case the reason is because there are things still to appear next series!? (do they even do that?) and therefore it could be some sort of timey wimey spoiler and i get melted with acid.
Anyway, this is really bugging me! Gah! Why put stuff in the trailer if it’s not going to be in an episode for the series you are trailing – or am I going completely barking mad.
(\(\;;/)/) *woof* (that’s a spider, barking… so mad, barking mad you see? No? Ah, ok, I’ll get me coat…)
7 January 2015 at 00:35 #37042@ichabod –
I really like thinking about the stuff I like thinking about, and thinking through fingers+keyboard in a congenial atmosphere is about as good as it gets.
Couldn’t agree more 🙂 Tho there seem to be a lot of butterflies fluttering by in here 😉
and
too much pudding, not enough brain
Definitely how I feel a lot of the time, ha ha.
@rob – Danny’s had more deaths and comebacks than Rory!
My prediction for season 9 is that Clara will scoot off for a period of full time adventure with in the TARDIS. Her link with her “real” life has gone, and she can come back in 5 minutes to pick up her teaching career if she wants. But her initial grief has been dealt with, Danny has given her “permission” (and not in a controlling way!!) to get on with her life. Still holding out for them bumping into Orson at some point.
It’s interesting to look how far the show has come since 2005 (10 years!!). Moffat’s done a complete reboot in the most sympathetic and organic way. No longer the (almost) omniscient, lonely PTSD-afflicted Doctor, but back to the wandering “idiot with a box” who will try to help if he can, but who doesn’t have all the answers. He is also (presumably) reconciled with his extra quota of regenerations (thanks to Santa) and the weight of his 2000 years lifespan.
He spent all of series 8 working out just who he was/is/wants to be (as you would if you’ve just effectively been made immortal), mirrored by Clara (almost) evolving into him, but hopefully now happier to just be herself. Now he just has to work out if really wants to find Gallifrey (and the TimeLords) sooner rather than later. After all, he’s got at least another 11 regenerations before it becomes an issue. For him at least. 😈
Still hoping to see River return, hopefully Missy too. And Vastra and Jenny would be the icing on the cake 🙂
7 January 2015 at 01:21 #37045@spider! Bad dog-spider! There’s nothing there so stop barking! (Nips round to YouTube to check if there is actually something lurking there in the shadows…)
7 January 2015 at 18:16 #37074@barbaralefty Eep! Sorry. Sitting nicely, waiting for a biscuit – good dog spider 😉
Looking again, it’s maybe not stuff from the full 60s trailer (although I think there are snippets) the one I’m really meaning is one of the ones released before the main trailers. These seemed to be called ‘teasers’ rather than trailers, and the one I’m really thinking of is the ‘I see into your soul’ one, below is a link to it on the BBC webpage.
PLEASE NOTE: I’m pretty sure this is cannot be a spoiler thing since it quite clearly labeled as being for series 8 which we have seen now, but if any one isn’t sure about it please don’t click!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0225wyr
I don’t remember seeing THAT, do you? Which is annoying cos I kept wondering when/why it would happen! Meh.
(\(\;;/)/) *waiting happily for good spider biscuit* (but possibly about to get thwacked across the nose with a newspaper)
7 January 2015 at 21:11 #37076@spider, I’m pretty sure that was created especially for the teaser, rather than intended to be part of an episode. I could be wrong, of course.
So my favorite bonkers theory is one that was alluded to briefly by @nerys and others many pages ago. The tangerine is not only a sign that Santa is real, but that Santa in fact saved the day. To wit:
It is Christmas Eve, and Santa is doing what he does on Christmas Eve. He gets to Clara’s house to deliver a tangerine and discovers her being sucked dry by a dream crab. Being no dummy (and possibly part Time Lord), Santa recognizes the dream crab, knows that his old pal the Doctor must be involved, and that the only way to break someone of a crab-induced dream is to allow oneself to be crabbed (so to speak) and enter the dream. So Santa thinks about dream crabs until one pops around and hugs his face.
Santa literally drops into Clara’s dream by landing on her rooftop. He addresses the Doctor’s scorn by telling the Doctor he will be glad of his help before the night is through. He reappears to save the day in the North Pole dream, and is the catalyst which allows the Doctor and everyone else to realize that they are in fact dreaming.
Being extra careful, Santa keeps a close eye, and breaks into the Doctor’s “old Clara” dream to make sure they get all the way out. Santa breaks out of his own crabbing just before the Doctor arrives (being magical and whatnot), and leaves a tangerine on her windowsill as a thank-you.
7 January 2015 at 23:36 #370868 January 2015 at 00:38 #37087@drben I like your bonkers theory! It’s along the lines of what I was thinking, except that I didn’t take the time to imagine the elaborate backstory that you did. Bravo!
8 January 2015 at 01:00 #37088Nicely done @drben! I too subscribe to the Santa is real theory. I’ve been unable to make much progress towards how that happened, but the chain-of-events you describe are exactly what I was hoping to find. Santa was crabbed too!!! That is the missing peice, brilliant!
It still doesn’t completely make sense to me, but that is mostly because I just haven’t thought about it enough, I think. Although, one small change I’m leaning toward is Santa’s connection to the dream crabs. Everything else of your theory still holds together exactly the same way, even with this change, but I think the inclusion of the other characters makes more sense (if the dream crabs are explained in a different way than attacking Santa).
I think Santa delivered the dream crabs to everyone as Christmas presents (just like delivering puppies and ponies really). 🙂
I like this because everyone in the dream was unhappy in real life, so they were all making Christmas wishes. The only way Santa could give them what the wanted for Christmas was with dream crabs. He delivered them just like delivering toys, and if we reverse the order of when they woke up, then that gives us the order of when the crabs were delivered.
One really dark thought though – I’m not sold on it, but have to mention it since it does make some sense in the story – about the professor who was killed in the dream. He might have wished to be dead, before being dream crabbed. That has very dark implications about Santa, but maybe not as bad as it sounds.
We never see the professor wake up, so he might have been on life support, suffering terribly, without any hope of recovery, just like in the movie Million Dollar Baby. Santa might have assisted in his suicide??
OK… too dark. Happy thoughts, happy thoughts, happy thoughts…
8 January 2015 at 01:37 #37089Correction: I confused myself again.
The order the dreamers wake up, is the same order they were dream crabbed. (not reversed)
So, Santa is the last one who was crabbed, he had to crab himself after delivering presents. He should have been the last one to wake up too. Maybe he was still dreaming at the North Pole, at the end. I think Santa wished for people to believe in Santa Claus, so he got his Christmas present (at least for the people he dream crabbed).
It was partly Santa’s nightmare at the same time. His raindeer got loose and ran away. 😆
Mostly Santa dreams he is as cool as the Doctor. His sleigh is bigger on the inside, he has cooler elves for companions, he does the scientific exsplanations, and Bad Ass Santa saves the day!!!
8 January 2015 at 01:53 #37090So Santa brought the threat as Xmas gifts? Hm ? Don’t know if I feel good about blaming old Santa.
We are going into slightly villainous territory attributing some very unusually dark behavior to
Santa with that thinking? But was this why the Doctor shows up on the roof and tells Clara to get into
the Tardis – to get her away from what he assumes is a bad Santa? Nice and very creepy!
But I’m also still leaning on and thinking that it was the Doctor who was the first crabbing attack
but how did that occur? Santa may have found Clara and Doctor in a state of crabbed-ness is how
I still feel for the moment. Santa didn’t deliver the crabs to them. He had to have just discovered
Clara and the Doctor that way and joined in the dream party.8 January 2015 at 02:18 #37091I agree @lisa that this theory is not one for the children. But I like it.
I disagree that Santa was evil or that the dream crabs were even actually a threat to anyone. Most DW monsters as it turns out are not really monsters. The dream crabs might only work for a certain amount of time, before they fall off and die. So Santa was just granting Christmas wishes, with very scary looking pixie dust that wears off after a short time.
Some would argue that assisted suicide is a kindness, and not villainous at all. But I can understand not wanting to think about Santa being involved in something controversial.
Of course this isn’t the only possible theory. Dreams within dreams, it’s limitless.
8 January 2015 at 02:56 #37092I love the suggestion as made by @drben and @nerys that Santa orchestrated the entire thing to get Clara back where she needs to be, in the Tardis. However I think it is important to remember that the interpretation of the significance of the Tangerine at the end is open. I am happy to choose the “Santa saves the day” option but those who prefer a more “rational” or “grown up” (not in my view) explanation can choose the, “Clara just left the tangerine there for a midnight snack”, theory. Moffat leaves the ending deliberately open letting the viewer made up their minds, come to their own conclusion. I just stomped on someone’s toes over on the Guardian for stating that the episode was rubbish because “Santa saves the day.” Moffat’s writing is far more ambigious than that, which is why those trolls of limited imagination can’t cope with it. There is no definitive answer to that one. Those who really can’t cope wtih the concept of Santa being real in a family show about an alien who travels through time in a box that is bigger on the inside, … oh wait. I have said that before haven’t I and it doesn’t need to be said here. (been spending too much time BTL on the Guardian lately.) The tangerine, (confusing citrissey type fruit) was left on the window sill for true fans like us. 🙂 I love the little clues that Moffat gives us, things that might be meaningful or might not. He certainly knows how to keep us bonkerising..
We see the dream crabs fall off people’s faces so we know they are real but we don’t know if they are as dangerous as stated because that was in the dream. I am not sure how much of what was said within the dream states we can trust. Also if Santa did orchestate the entire episode and the crabs were lethal he might have done so trusting that he and the Doctor, two time lords combined, would be able to counter any actual danger.
Of course this isn’t the only possible theory. Dreams within dreams, it’s limitless.
That is so Moffat. He is at his best when writing these kind of open ended/multiple interpretation stories. (as with Listen)
Cheers
Janette
8 January 2015 at 05:36 #37093@barnable — @lisa and all — Santa giving a Christmas present of a sort if assisted suicide — My God, I *love* you guys! I don’t know whether to laugh my self sick, or go jump off the roof. In any case, I am finding the idea of Santa giving everybody what they want via dream crabs irresistible. But the professor is a problem: if you were giving somebody a death-present, wouldn’t you make it a heroic death, or a sweet goodbye, a death a person could be pleased with or proud of? Getting sucked through a window/screen/thingie seems rather — abrupt, brutal, and insultingly perfunctory to me.
But suppose we solve that somehow (as in, explain away — DW offers an endless, rich banquet of stuff that needs explaining away, doesn’t it); then there’s this other problem, because butterflies or not, I have a pragmatic streak that just won’t quit, and I can’t find the off-button. So, lookit: the Doctor and Clara have had their parting of the ways in the cafe, leaving us all gutted and the Doctor alone in the Tardis afterwards, having, I think, one of his cat-naps only sitting down at the console.
And Santa knocks and tells him to pull his thumb out, there’s serious resolution-work to do.
CUT — to Clara’s bedroom, and some elfish oaf or oafish elf is bullying his employees on her roof.
Has the dreaming already begun? If so, which people already have been face-crabbed, and how? There were no face-crabs in the cafe; I didn’t see any in the Tardis, post Big Fat Lies, so who’s got the crabs — as it were? Is the Doctor already crabbed, and we’re seeing him from an external viewpoint, although we are in fact already in *his* dream? Not likely — where would he have, um, caught the crabs, between the cafe and the Tardis? Wandering around on his own with his eyes shut, maybe, because face it (heh!), on his own he is unstable at best, and falling into a face-crab mine wouldn’t be all that unusual; and we don’t see the thing because we’re looking with his own P.O.V. but from outside his actual head?
OR — Santa knocks, Clever Boy lets him in, and Santa crabs him. But then how do we get to Clara’s rooftop, before the D shows up? At what point, exactly, do we all enter the shared dream (we are, after all, dreaming it too for the duration of the show), and whose dream is it at least for starters, since the P.O.V. does shift quite a bit? Or is it all Clara’s dream from the beginning — her dreaming that Santa gives the D a wakeup call and then heads to her roof expecting a rendezvous with the D there?
I don’t think we can conclude anything useful about the ending(s) of the dream(s) until we figure out where, how, and via whom it got started. Or — are the dream-crabs just a fantasy themselves, an artifact of dreaming minds to answer the need for some cause for all this dreaming going on, although we know that dreams do whatever they want to well beyond any control by logic or reason.
What I want to know is (now, because late August is too far away) the next time we see the D and Clara together, will they remember all that dream stuff (like, admitting their lies to each other)? Or only bits of it? Or none of it, and both are still be stepping out of that hug in the cafe and the melancholy mood it left for both of them, or months later still remember that conversation as their last contact?
The tone of their first episode of season 9 kind of depends on answers about this Xmas dream, doesn’t it?
8 January 2015 at 07:23 #37096@ichabod rule number 1 is that the Doctor lies. The main reason I think it was assisted suicide is because D says the people die when the dream-crab-dreamers grab you. But the Doctor lies, for all we know the professor woke up and is alive and well still. His wish just didn’t come true, like everyone else had theirs come true.
D got second chance, Clara said good-bye to Danny, Shona forgave Dave, Fiona got to walk again, and Ashley was a scientist.
All of these Christmas wishes are things Santa can’t bring in his sleigh, so he has to use dream crabs instead. Santa doesn’t control the dreams at all (he crabbed himself though and helped out a bit, but still wasn’t in complete control). It’s up to the people to not get caught by the dream-crab-dreamers to get their wishes.
Santa giving dream crabs isn’t bad at all, if the worst thing that happens is you don’t get your Christmas wish to come true.
So that’s another theory to explain the professor’s death in the dream.
Since Santa is real for this theory, then his knock on the Tardis door is easy to explain. It was just what we saw happen, Santa didn’t need to dream crab D to show up coz Santa is real.
At that time, Santa might have just asked the Doctor what he wanted for Christmas?
But, the first crabbing happened on Christmas Eve, weeks after D and Clara said goodbye.
As far as order of dream crabbing,
professor (unknown for sure since grabbed), Fiona, Ashley, Shona, Doctor, Clara, Santa
I agree that the beginning of S9 should depend on the events of Last Christmas. We know that Clara is staying with D now, so that is one thing that LC changed already. I think they still remember their dreams.
8 January 2015 at 07:45 #37097@barnable — I certainly *hope* the D and Clara remember their dreams when we rejoin them next August; otherwise, they might not still be traveling together, since one of the things they will have forgotten is reversing the Cafe of Mutual Lies, so they’d still have to re-create their resolution of that and reconnection for joint travel. This got done in the dream, quietly, really, no fuss, and I liked that and would prefer that they *not* have to do it again because they don’t remember telling each other the truth inside the crab face dreams.
Maybe it’s just better to let sleeping Docs lie . . .
8 January 2015 at 07:53 #37098@ichabod – Yep, it’s much better if they remember dreaming for the reasons you said. Like @janetteb said Moffat episodes are always ambiguous. Just keep thinking of new theories until you find one you like. That’s why Moffat is my favorite writer, because the bonkers theorizing is the fun part and his episodes are usually the most timey-wimey. 🙂
8 January 2015 at 17:26 #37105Here’s a goofball idea (and I don’t think this is an original thought; seems to me I read someone else making this observation, but I’ll just take it a step further): What if the Dave on Shona’s list is actually Professor Albert? The shock of seeing the professor killed by the dream crabs has stayed with her in her waking state and troubles her enough that she is now willing to forgive him for that “comforting” pat on the knee … which I’m thinking she experienced in real life, and so it played a role in her dream. Dave is still alive; we just don’t get to see him wake up, because Shona checking that item off on her list leaves it to our imagination as to how that will play out.
8 January 2015 at 22:10 #37109that “comforting” pat on the knee … which I’m thinking [Shona] experienced in real life, and so it played a role in her dream.
I’m am thinking something like that happened too. Professor Albert might have just reminded her of Dave. Also, Professor Albert said it was just an innocent gesture? We know how that sounds, but it might be true. So maybe Shona realized that she might have overreacted from Dave?
If not then seeing Professor Albert get swallowed by a TV had it’s therapeutic benefits for Shona. 🙂
9 January 2015 at 08:57 #37128@bluesqueakpip we need another one of your diagrams re: When the Crabs Started
@barnable @ichabod @lisa @nerys ?
@barnable she over-reacted? Yeah? In show she just said “Oh, I remember the briefing alright. The knee…”
I don’t think she made a ‘fuss’ “as women are prone to do”. If indeed, Dave, as you referred to him, might have done the same thing (similar thing) as the Prof?? I could have inferred your statement wrongly. If not:….
Naughty Corner.
9 January 2015 at 10:35 #37130Oh wow! There is so much that I’ve missed here! (Being in Warsaw over Christmas, and away until after New Year makes it difficult to keep up!).
I can state quite categorically that Last Christmas is by far my favourite of the Xmas special episodes – definitely a 5-star story.
It is fascinating to see all the theories regarding the reality/unreality of Santa (when did it become standard in the UK to refer to him as such, and not Father Christmas?) – I just interpreted him as being a figment of their dreaming imaginations and didn’t really notice how Moff used the tangerine at the end to leave the question open for those still young enough to believe.
Not sure if I’d want to see Shona again as a companion – I think I’d find her a little irritating if she goofed around as she did here in a more serious story (she is forgiven this time – it was her dream after all!)
Ashley would make a far better companion, based on the evidence of this episode – she is much more focused, and has a degree of quiet melancholy that makes her more potentially interesting to me than Shona’s boozy bumbling.
Looking forward to series 9 proper!
9 January 2015 at 11:09 #37132@Purofilion –
I don’t think she made a ‘fuss’ “as women are prone to do”.
That is all your statement. You said that not me. I don’t know who you are quoting other than yourself.
I could have inferred your statement wrongly.
No you didn’t INFER anything! You completely made it up!
My statement is two possible theories of “what might have happened”. Prof. Albert and Shona have conflicting stories about the intent of “the pat on the knee”. I don’t assume to know which one is true. So, I definitely didn’t attempt to answer “why it happened” without knowing “what happened” first.
I always let the writers of the characters explain their motivations, but even if I did try to answer that question, I would never say anything as offensive you did.
9 January 2015 at 15:38 #37134Also, Professor Albert said it was just an innocent gesture?
History is littered with men who think there gestures “innocent”. It is never innocent to place an uninvited hand on a knee (or any other party of the anatomy) especially when in a position of authority.
(There is nothing in the writing to suggest a relationship between Dave and Albert and nothing in the way Troughton played it.)
9 January 2015 at 16:50 #371359 January 2015 at 18:09 #37140@spider Regarding the trailer, I don’t remember seeing those visuals, but the spoken lines come from Into the Dalek.
@ichabod Spending time on this forum will definitely change your day. Witness the following:
@barnable Mostly Santa dreams he is as cool as the Doctor. and I can understand not wanting to think about Santa being involved in something controversial.
Furthermore: @lisa attributing some very unusually dark behavior to Santa with that thinking
You have to love a forum where phrases like these can be used in all seriousness!
9 January 2015 at 18:31 #37142@ichabod @barnable You have hit on something that I have wondered about as well. How much of the dream do any of the dreamers remember? They are all slightly disoriented upon first waking. “Sexy” seems startled to find herself in a wheelchair; Shona reaches for her to-do list and immediately checks off “Forgive Dave”. The Doctor awakens on the fiery planet and knows immediately that he has to help Clara. So to me, the implication is that the dream will be remembered. This is far more satisfying than the alternative, of course, from a storytelling point of view. We want the Doctor and Clara to have reached some kind of resolution, otherwise there wasn’t much point to the story. (Other than a Christmas frolic, which is fine, of course, but at the end of Death in Heaven, it was clearly implied that the dire state in which things were left would be resolved at Christmas!)
9 January 2015 at 19:42 #37144Just on the “realness” of Santa, well that’s in the eye of the beholder. I come down pretty heavily on “is real in this iteration of the Whoniverse”.
Let’s look at the evidence. A recurring motif has been that our dreams may, in fact, be a bit more real than we’re comfortable with.
From Time of Angels
River: “What if we had ideas that could think for themselves? What if one day our dreams no longer needed us? When these things occur and are held to be true, the time will be upon us. The Time of Angels.”
So did the Weeping Angels evolve as such, or are they the personification of fears of inanimate statues? If enough people believe the statue moves, does it?
It’s an idea that’s re-iterated in The Snowmen
The Doctor: “But you were just Dr. Simeon. You were not real. He dreamed you. How can you exist?”
The Great Intelligence: “Now the dream outlives the dreamer and can never die. Once I was the puppet, now I pull the strings.”It’s actually an uncomfortable thought – your dreams becoming reality and having a life of their own. I can remember some of mine and the thought of them lurching down the street is pretty horrible. 😀
So – where does Santa come from in these deranged imaginings?
Well, at the end of Series 5 The Doctor reboots the Universe. And is erased. It takes an act of belief from Amy (which is a real force – Curse of Fenric and God Complex define it as such) to bring him back. But she was once Amelia, the little girl who prayed to Santa to deliver her someone who’d investigate that scary crack in her wall, and she got the Doctor. Perhaps, in bringing him back, she also invested him with a new friend. Santa – the guy that had sent her best imaginary friend?
After The Big Bang, we have A Christmas Carol, and the Doctor confidently proclaims he’s always known Geoff. Perhaps, from an act of belief from Amy, he always has?
9 January 2015 at 19:46 #37145The professor also may be a dream character and the Doctor could have danced once more 🙂
9 January 2015 at 20:28 #37146Some lovely musings on Santa @phaseshift 🙂 I really like the idea that Amelia made him real.
Whilst I like the dynamic between Clara and Capaldi, I think Amelia/ Amy and Eleven’s relationship is probably my favourite of the Nu Who Doctor/ companion relationships to date, in retrospect, because of its really twisted magical quality. “He met her as a child and fell in love with her daughter, but for what she was to him there was never quite a name” – ha! That sounds like a pulp sci-fi novel cover blurb doesn’t it 🙂 Long live pulp sci-fi.
9 January 2015 at 21:38 #37150@juniperfish I too enjoyed the relationship between Amy and Eleven. For me it took on a Peter Pan quality … except that unlike Peter Pan’s Wendy (who as a grownup feels she is too old for such things), the adult Amy gets to fulfill the wishes of her child self, Amelia, and go on adventures with her Doctor. Their relationship had a wonderful whimsical quality that really appealed to me.
9 January 2015 at 22:14 #37151I really like the idea that Amelia made him real.
I do too! I’m sure that m’collegue @rob will confirm that some of the best ideas come to you when you are stood genital deep in an exploratory trench in icy weather! This was one of them. 😀
For all sorts of reasons that Doctor-Amy-Rory dynamic is truly special in Who history. The main relationship between the Doctor and Amy is just epically mythic in retrospect. The addition of Rory to the mix just makes is so much better. As much as I admire 10-Donna, or 11,12-Clara I can’t help but think that 11-Amy is the one to beat.
9 January 2015 at 22:24 #37152@barnable you over-reacted dear. “As women are prone to do” is a very famous quote from outstanding tele.
I would refer you, kindly, to the dictionary. I “infer” a position. If my inference is wrong, it’s wrong. You refer to a situation etc etc.
Cripes. Also: check under ‘O’ for Offensive.
Regards, puro.
9 January 2015 at 22:31 #37154@barnable hang on, we know what happened. Shona said it. The prof said it and sexy commented on it. Ashley shook her head and looked peeved. So this “what happened” before “why it happened” has been examined. And
I reckonwe know why it happened. Also, he was her superior officer. History says: “that’s bad”. No question. Trust me on this. Not because I’m a woman but because I know a little of superior officers -as (unfortunately) they are still defined.Stomps off:
10 January 2015 at 00:47 #37163Dear @Purofilion – Now that you and @pedant mention it, I agree that Prof. Albert was wrong. I said his “pat on the knee” sounded really bad, but I was hoping that there was another way of looking at it without making him into a total creep. Like cultural differences (example: air kisses freak me out) or Shona could really hate being touched by people (like 12 hates hugs) anything less dark.
And yes, I did overreact again. Apologies <air hugs> – unless they freak you out
10 January 2015 at 01:31 #37167It takes an act of belief from Amy
No. It was an act of remembering – as a direct consequence of the Doctor planting memories (I stole the Tardis…well, borrowed it, it’s old and new and very blue – and with Moffat brilliantly using big and small to misdirect the viewer into thinking he was just rambling).
I may have looked at this before.
Now, Clara was very clear: right now she believes. She was (and in doing so, inviting the reader to join her in) suspending disbelief. Which is subtly different from believing.
(It has often occurred to me that if they ever decided to end Doctor Who the scene with a little child waking in the night, looking around and going back to sleep knowing she is safe would be as near to perfect as any. But Moffat used it to reboot the friggin’ universe! Maybe we are all living in Amelia’s dream.)
10 January 2015 at 03:48 #37172@Purofilion – There is no snark intended.
<air hugs> – unless they freak you out
That could be confusing, but I just meant it as respect for your feelings.
10 January 2015 at 05:33 #37173@barnable All’s good. Stay frosty. Can’t say toooo much, or I’ll get clocked on the head. I’m a masochist.
@pedant Beautiful article. I even left a comment. I never do that for fear of the inernet yellin’. I’m over that now coz it yells anyway. I think that belief and remembering are different things. I think Amelia remembered because she believed. I would have thought the same goes for Clara in Last Christmas and indeed in Deep Breath. But if I recall in DB, Clara is attentive to that moment only. She is unable to fully accept him* despite his ‘see me’ entreaty (and I’m not sure that the hug helps: hence my other discussion with @ichabod -who benefits from hugs?).
*or believe, or accept, the Doctor is the Doctor
I’m interested in Clara’s unusual Impossible Girl situation -and situation is the right word. Perhaps she cannot believe or truly accept as she can’t remember all she’s experienced with the Doctor: as the Impossible Girl and later, oystered on the Tardis during Smith’s final episode. That doesn’t sum it all up, but by the end (LC) she’s still recovering from Danny Pink’s death, the loss of her own Weltanschauung and the fact she misses her Doctor. The new one is still very distant at times. These things prevent an organic committal.
Regards, puro
10 January 2015 at 07:32 #37177@purofilion — I would draw a distinction between Clara giving the D that “oh gosh, of course it’s you!” hug at the end of Deep Breath and the moments later in the season when she says “I don’t know who you are any more”. The first I would translate as, “Oh, yes, it’s you, Matt, with a different self on” and the second as “Matt, I know you’re in there, but why are you acting so inconsiderately, or irresponsibly, or deliberately distant and reserved, or cold? Is this how you’re going to be from now on? Do I want to hang around for that, or not?” But she’s no longer in doubt about who *you* in those sentences is after Hug A, end of Deep Breath. So I think the hug was a real expression of acceptance on her part, *but* I also think she rather expected him to then revert to her Matt Smith playmate Doc, and was deeply frustrated when he did not, in the succeeding stories, at least not reliably, although in the Caretaker he certainly leaned in that direction for a bit.
In Deep Breath, I maintain, she *does* see him. In Kill the Moon, she still sees him but she does not like or understand what she’s seeing him doing. Not “Who are you?” She knows the answer to that. It’s more like, “What the hell has gotten into you? I liked you lots better before, when you were so cute and sweet. Are you *ever* going to snap out of it and straighten up and fly right? Because if not — ” She has no idea, that the personality she misses so much was a desperate detour by a D who simply had to get away from the strain of being his painful and much-battered-and-torn self for a while.
Have I understood your point? I hope my reply makes sense.
Some time we should take a look at Hug B, the hug that goes with the mutually merciful lies, bookend hug to a great series IMO.
10 January 2015 at 07:44 #37178I found this on a Blog I only just got to — and it seems very apposite to me:
@bluesqueakpip (I hope it’s okay to port a member’s post on another page over here like this — if not, tell me and I’ll do better) starting with a quote from somebody else complaining that series 8 was “all about Clara, instead of the D”.
[[“We have a brilliant actor playing the Dr and the writers made this series all about her.”
It was because we had a brilliant actor playing the Doctor that we were able to have a twelve-episode regeneration crisis – where the companion had to step up and play the Doctor. Whatever Jenna Coleman does in the future, I wish her well; she did a fantastic job.
‘It’s all about Clara’, came the moans (thick and fast). But did any of the moaners ask why it was all about Clara? Nope.
It was all about Clara because the Doctor didn’t have a clue who he was any more. He’d got lost behind the role he’d been playing for so long; no longer had any sense of who the original man had been. So many faces; was there anything left of that little boy, crying because his schoolwork was too hard for him and he’d never be a Time Lord?
I don’t think anyone but Peter Capaldi could have played a Doctor so lost that he quite deliberately dumps his companion with a major decision on Earth’s future, leaving her to sort it out by herself.
And yet still keep the audience with him, while he struggles to the realisation that ‘The Doctor’ is the story, the hero of a thousand stories, the legend. It’s the role he plays. The real man behind that story is an idiot with a magic box and a screwdriver, a man who just tries to help out.
But it’s the story that’ll help people fly.]]
Gorgeous; I’m intrigued by this idea of the D lost in the confusion of “The Doctor” as a role he plays in the course of adventures, and the idiot (the one we all are, behind the various roles we play to make ourselves look bigger and better and to get results, only we don’t have the box and the magic wand) zooming around in his stolen space/time vehicle. I’m not sure I completely buy it — this idea — or that it holds true throughout these episodes, but it’s very interesting. I *do* like very much the comments about how Clara has to “take over” at times because the D is definitely “out”; I think that’s been true in some of the eps, and it’s been the making of her as a character instead of merely a plot device.
10 January 2015 at 09:25 #37186@ichabod I’ll need to re-check the different hugs. Hug A, Hug B and so forth but yes, I see your point(s).
Regards, puro.
10 January 2015 at 10:05 #37188@ichabod still thinking… But in a job I do we tend to look at motivations and plausibility. I wonder if the Hug -we call ‘A’ was an ‘audition’. For Clara perhaps. And for the Doctor. It’s a dispositive factor at least.
10 January 2015 at 19:22 #37211@purofilion
An audition? Dispositive — new word, for me. Explain more?
Something that occurred to me last night while getting cats settled for the night; the newest one, the #3 I swore I would never have, isn’t my cat (I didn’t raise him). He’s basically a gentleman boarder who politely but insistently applied for accommodation and was accepted. He’s a very dark seal point siamese, young/mature, reserved, and undemanding. There’s a certain look about him when he’s sitting on my desk waiting for me to read his mind and do what he wants done, and I reach over to give him a quick scritch his head or neck (he is beautiful — it’s hard *not* touch).
That look is *exactly* the D’s look in “see me” when Clara walks up to study him. I mean *exactly* — the slightly stiff posture, mouth slightly pursed, ears twitched flat (it looks that way) — and holding very still to keep from involuntary recoil.
Well, the D did ask to be “seen”, not touched. There’s even a vague hint of the exotic in his cast of feature, just for that handful of seconds. I went back to look at “see ne”, I was so struck. This is totally absurd. But I see it . . .
And no, this is *not* meant as opening a cat-thread on this forum. Just saying’, is all.
11 January 2015 at 07:50 #37223@ichabod we use the term at work a bit -it’s a law thing but to me it seemed as if The Doctor and Clara were auditioning. Or, specifically the Doctor needed to -according to Clara, perhaps. It was a probationary peace settlement as each has a separate peace of territory. Just a ‘thing’ not a whole concept. The Doctor has his Tardis and his own regenerating self.
Regards, Puro
11 January 2015 at 17:11 #37245I have no idea how I respond to you directly just wanted to let u know that you made my day with that. Seeing my comment later with my brain not beeing blinded by stupidity I am really ashamed for what i wrote T_T. I was just kind of mad that some of his friends feeled like they stayed far shorter at his site than others (what they probably did too) and for eg. my favorite one Marta Jones felt like she did only stay for a really short time. The problem I have with clara is not her look, it’s the way she started to act in the last few episodes. She started to lie and overall threw the entire concept away that I knew from the 10th Doctor (David Tennant) who protected every single life he could/showed so much emotions. I guess David Tennant was a legend but I also like the style of the 12th…
anyways tanks for replying to my comment, to be honest if I would have seen a comment like mine on another day I would have probably just ignored it. Well, some personal, very unfortunate things happened that day and I kind of wanted to let out my anger back then. I’m really sorry if I insulted somebody with that.
btw I’m sorry for my bad english writting, I am still not as good in english as I’d like to bee but I’m working on it 😉
Have a nice day 🙂
11 January 2015 at 17:56 #37248@cubefox No problem! We are all allowed to have bad days – I hope whatever the unfortunate things that happened that day got sorted/better for you.
I don’t think you insulted anyone (certainly not me), just that with that sudden outburst I’m afraid you opened yourself up for some very sarcastic retorts – I’m afraid I couldn’t help myself ;).
Everyone is, of course, allowed their opinion and not everyone is going to like every single companion. What you’ve written there explains a lot more clearly (than your initial vent) why you were dissapointed with Clara. To a certain extent I do agree with you, I did not like the way she was starting to act in the last few episodes, similarly in some episodes this year I really haven’t liked the way the Doctor has acted either. However, now being able to look back over the entire run of this series and saw what it was building up to for Christmas I think it’s been really good. It’s a Doctor/companion dynamic we really haven’t seen.
The 10th Doctor certainly showed his emotions, but then when he ‘fell’, he fell hard (Waters Of Mars) – perhaps he ‘cared’ too much. 11 certainly still showed his emotions as well…but 1000 years on Trenzalore must have taken their toll.
What we have with 12 is the Doctor scaled right back to his core, he still cares he just shows it in a different way. I think it’s a welcome change from the more emotional/human Doctors 10&11. Don;t get me wrong, I loved David Tennant’s Doctor – but I did start to get annoyed with the Doctor become a bit too ‘humanised’
With Clara I have come a full 180degrees with her. In her first series with Matt Smith I really didn’t like her at all I thought she didn’t work at all – the only two episodes where that wasn’t the case was the Dalek one and the Snowmen one – but then she is playing her echos, not the real Clara. However, then Capaldi comes along and *BANG* completely different dynamic and chemistry that just works brilliantly I think. So now Clara is fast becoming one of my favourite companions of all time! Of course, we need to see what happens in series 9.
Hope you continue to join in the discussions – a good way to practice your English 🙂
(\(\;;/)/)
11 January 2015 at 19:10 #37250hey,
thanks for actually taking your time to reply to me.
One of the things about doctor who that i love and hate is the change of the characters. There are some series out there, that are really awesome but that get boring after you watched them for a few years because the actions just start to repeat themselves. With the change of the actors you allways have something new you can experiment, wether you like it, or not. Lot’s of people told me “you should allways stop, when it’s best” and I guess this applys to doctor who too.
Anyways I think I still haven’t completely understood the new Doctor and Clara and I’ll try to give her a second chance and look at her unprejudiced for the next season.
thanks for replying to me. I guess thanks to you I will enjoy watching the next Season more than I would have without reading another persons thoughts. (:
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