On The Sofa (7)

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    PaperMoon @papermoon

    a quick thanks to @craig for posting the link to the scripts. I’m going to enjoy reading them, 🙂

    janetteB @janetteb

    @craig thanks also from me. I have not had time to look at the scripts but like @papermoon will enjoy them very much when I do. Also thanks for dealing with the recent infestation of trolls.

    Welcome to new members, @spud and @carrieanne

    I suspect that there is as yet no replacement for Clara on the horizon. Of course Moffat may well be planning a surprise. It would certainly be rather like him to do so. Still the lack of announcements re’ next series does concern me.



    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    The BBC have just released part of a short interview with Peter Capaldi – in which he mentions next year.

    Warning: if you haven’t watched last weeks episodes, the interview contains short clips. 🙂

    Anonymous @

    You were polite and I spoke politely to you. But Pedant didn’t, they could have but they chose to write this instead.
    “I think if perhaps you tried to refrain from Tweeting during the show you will come to understand what is actually happening a little better.”

    They didn’t say “fuck you” but words to that effect. And that’s before I ever even spoke to them or had any interaction with them what so ever. Who would be so foolish, so stupid as to think it’s ok to say something like that? For that matter to put any difference between it and “fuck you” really? You need to scroll back and look at the conversation. Of course the moron just started writing dumb troll comments after that so it’s just an attempt to get a reaction. The usual troll formula, create an asshole facade , piss someone off, laugh at how mad they got. Probably a punk kid in need of a serious ass whipping which he or she will definitely get from some other punk kid so no problem there. What astounds me is that you can look at that comment and wonder why I told that dumb ass to fuck off? Do you just eat shit from every stupid moron? Do you realize that instead of a silly ass troll they might have actually BEEN a smarmy stupid piece of shit that thinks the have a right to talk like that to people? I just came here to talk about Dr Who, I like the show but the place is a troll nest. Not sure about you, because you honestly seem confused. Or it’s just another troll attempt in which case, this gives you a few laughs , maybe something for trolls to read on a Reddit forum. Any way there’s no Dr Who discussion here so I’m off to find a forum with people that like the show and want to talk about it.

    janetteB @janetteb

    @bluesqueakpip Thank you for that link. I am looking forward to watching it when I get home this afternoon. (I am off to an annoying meeting right now.)

    @pedant You are doing a fine job of keeping the trolls in order. A “no nonsense” comment is just that, not abuse and certainly not a reason for the other person to become abusive.



    Anonymous @


    Okaaay Well, that’s over -being nice doesn’t work either. So yep, just ignoring them, really is the only way to do things. Beejezus: I’m a slow learner.

    @carrieanne welcome to you and glad you stuck around despite that rather ugly teenage (I’m still bamboozled) carry -on. I haven’t actually yet seen the final of the 2 parter -I’m in Oz with @janetteb and so we wait, with trepidation, till tonight. For some reason this 2 parter -The Zygon Inversion – makes me nervous. Will it work? I hope so, I think it will. 🙂

    Kindest, Puro

    winston @winston

    @purofilion  I am also waiting for part 2 on in 15 minutes so I am sticking to the sofa until later. I am an optimist so I say it will be good!

    I was sorry to see such rudeness on this forum but I guess it goes with the territory.  I have to say most of the members are smart and polite and the exact opposite of shallow. Good conversation and fair debate is what I have seen here.



    Anonymous @


    I did it -I watched it on ABCiview before the family -I. am. a. Traitor!! Kill the traitors.

    I won’t give it away but it was bloomin awesome. I was so scared the ball would be dropped and it wasn’t.

    My family, who aren’t that interested were all “huh. so?” Therefore I’m glad I actually saw it before tonight because I had a dust -or something -in my eye.

    Long may the Doctor live!

    Carrieanne @carrieanne

    Good Dr Who eve to you all.  @purofilion like I said I’ve been reading along with the forum for a bit now, so I know that you all are really not negative people in the way other forum  users talk to each other.  I like it here and fell comfortable about participating. I am so excited about this season and really love the speculations and theories, we all have them don’t we?  I live in the US so I had to wait til just an hour ago to watch it recorded, I have to skip commercials lol.  This episode feels like a game changer to me.

    janetteB @janetteb

    @purofilion This two parter makes me nervous too. I feel as though we have been handed random bits of a puzzle and can make no sense of it at all. Tonight’s episode could be brilliant or a massive let down. I have peaked at the Guardian blog, trying not to be “spoilered”. and it seems like it is the former. I am waiting until dinner tonight to watch with the family. (have just been to a meeting in the city where we had to deal with a 3d troll. They are even worse in person.)



    Anonymous @


    dare I ask, what is a 3D troll? A bully? Sounds like it. A real, in your face bully!

    Well, I won’t say too much but it isn’t a massive let down. I’ll just say that. -I had to watch it on iview, I was way too impatient.

    Anonymous @


    yes indeed, I think it is -over half way thru so it means that things are changing -moving with a new momentum. I think Dr Who has become very exciting this season. There will always be naysayers but I put it down to people  being so in love with something/one, they have periodic screaming matches with it! If they didn’t care so much, there’d be no talk, not much of anything and we do all have our healthy share of opinions which I believe is essential to what we all really, deep down, love to bits.

    Kharis @kharis

    @carrieanne Welcome!  That is exactly why I like this forum!  If we don’t like things about the show we discuss them as opinions (which they always are) instead of facts or a call to take sides.  People here are wild and interesting, and above all most are creative or downright brilliant.   It’s fun, and enlightening, and if I’m going to bother taking a break from my day to day, especially when things get intense in my job right before the holidays, well, I usually come here.  🙂  We keep an open mind here, you know, like the Doctor pointed out, in other words, we like to think.  😉

    Curious?  Zygon or human? Favourite episode?  Doctor you most relate to?  Favourite Doctor?  Favourite companion?  Companion you most relate to?  Actually, would love to hear everyone’s answer to these.  🙂

    Carrieanne @carrieanne

    @kharis Thank you for the welcome! I think the surviving Osgood was human, while I myself am Zygon lol! Although I don’t think it matters as Osgood herself said.  My favorite episode is, though I’ve never sat and considered it, is probably A Christmas Carol. There was something just magical to me about that episode and the idea of the Doctor going back to Kazaran’s childhood to change his mind.  Also I’m a sucker for the line that he’s never met anyone unimportant.  I loved David Tennant, he was my first Doctor as I never watched classic Who.  I caught it on a rerun on BBC 1.  It was New Earth!  I was hooked, then proceeded to watch all of new who on Netflix.  Actually my viewing experience of DW is a bit timey-wimey lol!  Although I still love Tennant doc, Matt Smith is my doctor.  The way he was able to be both old and young at once I think was just brilliant.  Capaldi has been wonderful as the doctor and at first hard for me to accept, but of course I didn’t want Tennant to go either.  He is the doctor as they all are just a new/aged face.  Donna Noble has left the library…..adored Donna with her attitude she is my favorite.  That being said I’ve loved them all in their own way.  Clara is fantastic and I am dreading her departure.  Never understood all the dislike/outright hate for her.  So ya Donna and Clara favorite companions.

    Kharis @kharis

    @carrieanne ‘A Christmas Carol’ is also one of my favourite episodes.  I love your assessment of the 11th, he was brilliant as the Doctor.  I’m also dreading Clara’s departure and have never understood why people didn’t like her as a companion.  She has been one of my favourites.  Donna!  I miss her and all her humour!  She was such a completely original companion.  I hope the next companion is someone original.  Maybe an alien, a child or a man?  The wide eyed young woman companion does seem to be overplayed  a tad, even though I felt all of the companions were awesome.  Donna was truly one of the best, I’m looking forward to the audio versions of her and the 10th.  🙂

    nerys @nerys

    Welcome, @carrieanne! I agree with you and others who don’t understand the dislike for Clara. Though I did find her underutilized when she first started out as a companion for Eleven. But she really came into her own last season, and this season has been brilliant. I am not looking forward to Clara’s departure, in whatever form it takes. I’m thinking I’ll need to have a box of Kleenex handy!

    Carrieanne @carrieanne

    @nerys I thought immediately of Donna when I saw your screen name.  I agree with you I think however Clara leaves will be heartbreaking.  There are worse things than Death when traveling with the time lord.  My feeling right now is that I think she will die.  It seems to me that the episodes are out of order.  Not backward, but more the Dr is jumping around.  The way he said ” I’ll be the judge of time”  was way to dark, he wasn’t relieved or joyful that Clara survived.  I guess it feels like the Doctor already knows how Clara’s story ends.  I re watched TMA and TWF and I was left wondering what Missy’s clever idea was?  Also Clara was using mental powers to work the dalek.  She’s had to do that quite a lot in this and last season’s episode.  Remember the mental link in Time of the Doctor with Vastra, River,Jenny and Strax?  Then River mentioned it again as a spoiler.  I really hope that Moffat really explains how Impossible Clara is, and what Missy had to do with it?  Ah so much thinking, it’s like I’m writing my own ending in my head lol.

    Frobisher @frobisher

    Hello all! I’ve been enjoying your bonkers theorising for some time now, and thought I’d sign up so I could join in with some of the chats.

    I’ve been watching AG Who sporadically since the start(ish), but regularly only since the 11th Doctor era started. I did watch some BG Who as a child (and largely found it terrifying!). Peter Davison is the Doctor I remember most from that time, I think, although I did watch some of the 6th and 7th stories too.

    I look forward to the mad speculation! 🙂

    Anonymous @


    excellent tag! Welcome and enjoy the site. We have the tendency these days to get quite over-excited at ‘themes’ right now -but still, all in good fun. 😉

    Jump right in

    Kindest, puro.

    darbycrash @darbycrash

    Hiya! I’m new and I’m sure I’ll regret admitting I’m from the US. I watched the 4th as a kid with my parents on PBS, Channel 12 WHYY Philadelphia. When the new series started in 05 I didn’t own a TV so I saw a few episodes here and tgere but now I’m all caught up thanks to an off the cuff comment from my husband, “People are saying the new Doctor us brining Tom Baker’s crazy back!” I don’t know if I agree but I do love 12 (or do we call him 13?) 12 is life hunty. Get into it!

    Carrieanne @carrieanne

    I have a question for you all.  In the episode A Good Man Goes to War, when the doctor realizes who River is, I can’t quite figure out what she shows him.  It’s obviously the cot or the prayer leaf, my question is he responds with that means and he makes kisses  and implication of more and River says yessss.  I guess I’m wondering how either of those things tells him that they are intimately involved, if you will?  If it was the cot what exactly did the cot say? We already knew she knew his name from Library, and the leaf revealing she was Melody doesn’t translate to his reaction.  Help this scene has always drove me crazy because I just don’t see how he figured out they were lovers.

    Kharis @kharis

    @carrieanne There were mini episodes before ‘A Good Man Goes to War’ were they were clearly lovers. I think he just recognised the name in the crib, realised it was River and his kiss kiss gesture was just to point out that he had snogged Amy and Rory’s kid, which he finds funny.

    Anonymous @

    @darbycrash -yes I thought you were -on the other thread. Welcome and enjoy. I loved 4 as well although I think I started with 3 because they were repeating Pertwee when I was about 7 or 8.

    Glad your family loves Who together. My Boy is a huge fan although the husband, not so much, but every Sunday, with his bowl of icecream and a soda, he’ll sit down anyway -more often than not, he’ll go to sleep but usually he’s  frowning by the end of it -complexity you see 😉

    darbycrash @darbycrash

    @purofilion your theories are amazing and the amount of thought you put into watching an episode blows me away. I am going to enjoy the hell out of reading these forums. So glad I joined and found other fans to read about and “talk” to. Not to get too maudlin but I was getting a bit lonely.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @phaseshift and @ludivine

    Yes, I’m looking forward to the Doctor Who Festival on Saturday – Cybermen Stream.

    I did get hit by the seemingly inevitable ‘there will be a work clash that you can’t afford to turn down’, but fortunately the final schedule had my little bit wrapped yesterday.

    Well, by the time we actually finished, this morning. 🙂

    So I will now be at the Excel Centre on Saturday, clutching my ticket. I’m really looking forward to hearing the writers – Saturday is Steven Moffat chairing, Sarah Dollard and Peter Harness on the panel, with Mark Gattis on the MFX show explaining how the monsters transfer from script to screen.

    Anonymous @


    that interview was great. He’s great.  I love him.

    OK. OTT. Still, you watch it at 8.30pm What the hell, BBC?

    We’re in bed after the show airs at 7.30 to 8.30 (roughly). Mad. How can families watch this so late?

    Change it change it change it change it change it.


    Carrieanne @carrieanne

    @kharis Thank you for answering Kharis.  I guess in my mind that cot was more important than that.  And how the heck oh never mind lol.  I think I will always think there should have been more than that to the reveal.

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord


    Enjoy your day! Must be an especially frustrating position for Sarah Dollard to be in as she was also at the London Comic Con with SM last month. She hasn’t got a history of Episodes to discuss and her one this series isn’t broadcast till next week so … Spoilers. 😉

    Kharis @kharis

    Please humour me fellow Forum members waiting for tonight’s episode.

    I just love that the Charlotte mold used to make soufflés in was referred to as “Fez-shaped” in several of my cook books.   That was a particular laugh for me.

    For fun:  I think we should officially add another treat to Whovians parties, plus add another fun name to the cooking repertoire.

    Making a red coloured soufflé in a Charlotte mold is now called a ___________?

    Baked Bang? Big Tang? Crimson Horror? Ha ha!  I’m terrible at naming things.

    Kharis @kharis

    I could just picture people on this Forum serving the dish at a Who Party:

    Is the ______ the recipe or is it the ______?

    If you use the same batter you poured into the Charlotte mold into ramekins, what do you call the ramekin version  a “Cake”icle?

    Sorry, I do apologise, I’m squirrelly this morning.  😉

    janetteB @janetteb

    @kharis  I think a little humour is much in need today.

    My attempts at souffle making thus far have been worse than Clara’s.



    janetteB @janetteb

    That was a lovely blog article and always good to expand the vocabulary. Anticippointment. That would have fitted nicely into last week’s writing exercise.

    Thanks for the link @pedant.



    Arbutus @arbutus

    @purofilion  @catladymeow  @lisa  @soundworld

    Because Puro went off topic and I am resolutely staying there, I have moved this to the sofa, so as not to be modded!

    Puro said:    He still remains my favourite Doctor although I’m beginning to think the word favourite just doesn’t work with this show at all.    You’re absolutely right. Back before the Gap, I always said that Tom Baker was my favourite Doctor, but really, everyone else brought something worthwhile or relatable to the role, and every era had stories that I loved and some that I didn’t. Nowadays, in the modern parlance, I refer to Four not as my favourite Doctor, but simply as “my” Doctor. The Platonic ideal, but not necessarily better in every way. Catlady, I too liked McCoy. I loved his elfin charm and the way it could turn suddenly dark. I loved his fearlessness, his crankiness, his idealism, and the warmth of his smile.

    As to After Gap Doctors, I have enjoyed them all in different ways, but Capaldi is definitely “my” Doctor for the modern era. I loved Eleven, but somehow, Twelve just resonates for me more. He frightens me and delights me. He makes me catch my breath, and laugh out loud.

    But as Puro says, the Doctors are one Doctor. Yes, just like a sonata, or a symphony, even. Different motives coming to the fore at different times, different movements in different moods: the brilliant allegro, the heart-wrenching adagio, the robust and humorous scherzo, the grand and triumphant finale (maybe it’s a fugal one- I think the Doctor must be fugal, with all those intricate subjects and countersubjects, retrograde inversions, and emotionally satisfying cadences). But all one work, to be examined and appreciated as a whole.

    janetteB @janetteb

    @arbutus I agree. We all have “our Doctor” but comparing the various incarnations just seems wrong now. AGWho has given us four wonderful versions of The Doctor, each bringing something unique to the roll and it is not fair to judge them against each other. I am beginning to really dislike the media habit of making lists of “favourite” or “best”. I feel for the poor actor that ends up no 10. Nearly all of the actors have given a lot to the marvel that is Doctor Who, be it through convention appearances or ongoing radio work. There is one exception but he was an exceptional Doctor and at the time he took on the role the popularity of the series could have have dreamed of and without him it might not have happened. (Actually I miscounted. AGWho has given us five, arguably six, wonderful “regenerations”. The minisode really endorsed McGann as the Doctor.)

    Of AG regenerations, my favourite is always the one I happen to be watching. Of the older Doctors, Tom Baker will always be “my Doctor”, and I am afraid that Colin Baker will never convince me in the role but after seeing him in The Fivish Doctors I appreciate his ongoing commitment to the role.



    Anonymous @


    brilliant allegro, the heart-wrenching adagio, the robust and humorous scherzo, the grand and triumphant finale (maybe it’s a fugal one)…

    ooh I do love your characterisation there – I think when people ask me “what is your favourite symphony to conduct or even your favourite choral piece?” I stumble. What to say to that? How many absorbing variations and brilliant concertos, eighteenth century, nineteenth century as well as the inexplicable beauty of the twentieth century with the wildness of Bartok, Debussy, Penderecki, Gorecki and the vast explosions of the Russians from the 19th century onwards can one favour? It’s like icecream.

    Alright, it’s nothing like icecream. 🙂

    But yes, this Doctor, is a fugue -a complex Bach fugue or even a 20th century one from Peter Sculthorpe or another Australian composer who delves into multi contrary motion motifs -almost impossible to play properly and when performed at the correct pace provides a devastating harmonic, which, in the right acoustic environment, absolutely lights the audience up like Litvinenko.

    I feel the Doctor is like that  -beautifully spot on Arbutus. Love it.


    soundworld @soundworld

    I’ve only seen the show since David Tennant, although I had seen some of the new series 1, so I suppose he’s my benchmark.  I loved him in the role, his quick flashes.

    I guess that although I love him in the role, especially the Donna series, I’m going to raise my head above the parapet here and say that in general I much prefer the Moffat style to the (for me) overly bombastic RTD.  Thats a massive generalisation, and there are many gems from those series that I just love.  Or maybe, I’ve gotten hooked, whereas before I wasn’t hooked, but I was still a hungry fish looking for a dangling line!

    Then Matt Smith came along and I was blown away – he just seemed to BE so alien and other-wordly, old within a young body, acting with such a range.  He (like, so totally) was the Doctor.

    And then… we have the Patrician CapaldiDoc, who is utterly awesome.  I’m in awe at the emotions he portrays with just his face, eyebrows, then his voice.  He IS the Doctor.

    So, @purofilion @arbutus your writing is spot-on, they are aspects of a great symphony.  A truly modernist symphony which is still being written even as the orchestra is playing the existing movements.

    Kharis @kharis

    @purofilion @arbutus @soundworld @janetteb

    Beautifully written about the Doctors and the music, all of you!  What a lovely way to start my morning.  🙂

    Okay proof I’ve been working on Nutcracker too long.  I’ve always seen Drosselmeyer as Doctor Who, so much so that in our Nutcracker he dresses as the Doctor and leaves in what could be a blue door with windows, or the TARDIS.  I’ve added many touches over the year that people who don’t watch Doctor Who would never notice, like he brings bananas and uses a sonic to stop the clock from going crazy.

    Okay, so here is my absolutely bonkers theory, which is proof I need a break from Nutcracker:

    Actual storyline of the real Nutcracker:

    Eccentric Inventor/Magician/Scientist is invited to a Christmas party.  He brings mechanical dolls to entertain the children, but to also tell a story to Clara to make her start to understand, and eventually stops time in the room where everyone freezes so he can procure a magical Nutcracker he must give to Clara, and only Clara, because only she can look past appearances and have a heart strong enough to battle the Rat King.  He gives it to her, leaves the party, comes back in the middle of the night in what the audience is never sure is a dream or reality, shrinks Clara down to rat size and she defends her Nutcracker and her valor breaks him from his wooden spell, he turns into a real boy, they fight the Rat King together, win and are transported into the Land of Snow.    They are rewarded by going to the Land of Sweets and visiting dancers from many lands.  He returns her to the sofa in her living room leaving the audience wondering g if it was a dream or not.  Sound familiar?

    Yep, all I see is Doctor Who in this now.  The theme of Clara being in the dream state but accomplishing a saviour only she can perform, is chosen to perform.

    Visions of Sugar Plums dancing in my head!  LOL!   Need a holiday from Nutcracker, clearly!


    ichabod @ichabod

    @kharis  — What an excellent Nutcracker scheme!  Drosselmeyer does look like a Doctor Who figure — and there must be others: the older, mysterious, clever, “magical” authority who’s often not just a trickster but an evil-leaning character manipulating the story behind the scenes, like Lindorf in “Tales of Hoffman” (“je suis vieux mais je suis vif!”), who just popped into my head.  The “trick” with the Doctor is that he’s a *combination* of the wise and magical elder and the vigorous young adventurer . . . is this a somewhat dim sort of archetype here?  Much is made of the “maiden, mother, crone” succession, but there’s the also a “callow youth, seasoned hero, wise old man” progression too, isn’t there?  With the Trickster an ambiguous outlier, usually male, having no female counterpart because of the usual mish-mash of restrictions on how females are categorized, or maybe that’s the beautiful enchantress . . . Dunno, gotta get FOOD.  And fed.  And coffee . . . and watch this episode a second time.

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Christmas has come early!

    Just been excitedly unwrapping my 4 disc blu-ray version of the “50th Anniversary Collector’s Edition”, which includes “The Five(ish) Doctors”! Hurrah! To my knowledge, this is the only way to get “The Five(ish) Doctors”, and is only available from Australia. Thank god I brought my Australian blu-ray player with me when I emigrated to Canada!

    lisa @lisa

    Apparently it is Steven Moffett’s birthday today. He shares it with Margaret Atwood.

    lisa @lisa


    I suspect that should probably be in the spoilers section (given that the url is itself a bit spoilery).

    lisa @lisa


    It was basically a lot of philosophical reflection however if the Mods think
    differently then do please make it a spoiler.



    It’s not something that would especially bother me, but our Multi-Layer Spoiler Protection System(tm) is designed for the most twitchy :).

    janetteB @janetteb

    Thanks for the link @lisa. I did not find it particularly spoilery just Moffat doing what he always does, talking without saying anything. (I meant that in a good way.) He has become expert at answering questions without giving anything away.) My favourite words, and they are not spoilery, (I hope) were  at the end. “Business as usual”. That that finally puts paid to all the rumours that there would be no series next year or a truncated series. Yay for another year of CapDoc. Long may he reside in the TARDIS.




    ichabod @ichabod

    @lisa  Yes, thanks for the link — I’ve referred to it in reply to a (new?) member posting a lugubrious comment on how dark S9 is and it’s been putting him/her off the show.

    @janetteb  Yes!  Let’s see all that anxious quibbling about the different ways the show could be in format next year (not on this site, obviously, but on several others) done and dusted.  Everybody’s so keyed up over the upcoming finish of S9, there’s a propensity to go off half-cocked over any bitty little rumor; it’s annoying.  But it’s also nice to have some reassurance from the horses’ mouths — and what a fine team they are, these two!  I love it that they consult at length over these momentous decisions!



    lisa @lisa

    Well it seems that here we are now on the last pages of the Clara story. So I just felt like
    saying thank you Clara for being the Doctors companion. Now the opportunity presents itself
    for the Doctors story to move on. Maybe you’ll come back for a future visit like River or
    Osgood. You were a great story that explored so many themes. A great teacher too and I will
    remember your lessons about super powers and trying to make a soufflé.

    I’ll miss you Claradox but the adventure continues!

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord


    Well said. I think Clara and Jenna will always hold a place in our affections because it was Christmas 2012 (and her appearance in The Snowmen) that led to The Doctor Who Forum being formed (you can look at The Snowmen forum and see us staggering, drunkenly, into the light of a new dawn). That’s almost three years of debate and cogitating on Clara and her astonishing relationship with The Doctor.

    Whoever our personal favorite companion may be, Clara and Jenna will always be special here.

    Anonymous @


    Well, I didn’t know that!  -that year was an interesting time for me -I was hardly ever on the computer except for work purposes and was watching Dr Who whilst running about with RL -but, having seen the Graun, later, I could see why some of you decided to “stagger drunkenly into the light of  a new dawn”

    Well worth it

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