Rogue

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

I realise with a smile that RTD2 set this episode in Bath in 1813 – that’s the year Pride and Prejudice was published.

Not only that, but Austen lived in Bath for a bit, and at an address in Gay Street no less. Two of her novels were set there too, Northanger Abbey and Persuasion.

Rogue is certainly about pride and prejudice, given the Doctor’s deliberately “scandalous” (for the time period) M/M turn with Rogue on the dancefloor, followed by Rogue’s even more scandalous proposal.

And of course, on a meta level too, RTD2 is telling us he wrote this episode in pride. and as a not-so-polite salute to prejudice – anticipating the polarised reactions to the Doctor’s smooch with Rogue unfurling across the interwebs with, I suspect, unmitigated glee.

On second watch, I notice there’s a very creepy big brown teddy bear in Rogue’s console room on his bird-like ship and also that the voice of the ship’s count-down to incineration sounds really very similar to a dalek.

The bear is a call-back to all of Rose Noble’s monster toys, and perhaps both are hints that the Toymaker and his legions are still lurking.

As for the daleky voice, just as with Rogue’s rather uncanny resemblances to Captain Jack and River Song – it’s all looking a lot like the hand of the “Games’ Master” (Susan Twist, the Meep’s boss – whoever it is) is remixing elements from the Doctor’s past into his current journey.

Someone on Twitter spotted that Ruby says in this episode that she and her girls drink in The Spinning Wheel pub in London, and that Jackie Tyler, Rose’s Mum, mentions meeting mates there for a pub quiz in Love and Monsters. What a great spot!

I forgot to say how charming it was when the Doctor starts singing “Pure Imagination” from Willy Wonka when he invites Rogue into the TARDIS.

If Ruby turns out to be the daughter of Rose and Metacrisis Doctor, then Peter Pan would be another fantasy element in the mix (Pan took Wendy’s daughter to Neverland, once Wendy had grown up).

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@juniperfish

Yes… I enjoyed the Willy Wonka stuff.

re 1813 and Jane Austen… big Clara connection there! As long as Jane doesn’t turn out to be a scotsman with a huge ginger beard (Blackadder 3; Dick and Dictionary… but don’t quote me)

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

So, having bought about it for a while.

I feel the Doctor might have found the Mr Darcy to his Lizzy Bennet. (Only the Doctor knows damn well he’s handsome enough to tempt him). It was interesting seeing a little reversal of the Doctor-River encounters, I saw a little of River in the Doctor in this encounter. And to see a little of that dynamic without the Timey-whimey. At the same time, Rouge is very, very River. Amoral employment as a bounty hunter rolling his eyes at the Doctor insisting they not kill anyone – check. Fully prepared to sacrifice himself for the Doctor – couldn’t be more check. Wistful flirty ‘find me’ – might be the new ‘spoilers’.

 

There is also possibly a theme in this series of the Doctor not being the unique Great Saviour. Or a focus on what the quality is that makes him special. There are a few Doctor-y characters so far. The woman in Space Babies, acting as nanny for all the babies left behind – but she’s scared of getting too attached, and them getting too attached – and tries to kill the snot monster out of misguided love. There’s Rickey September, who could have been great in a Tardis, with a huge impulse to learn and to save people, but maybe didn’t fully understand his own people, or, as they were known to him, his fanbase. There’s Rouge who is very take charge, come on run, find a last minute loophole in the science – but has more of an emotional than a moral compass. And there’s the Doctor, when he thinks Ruby is dead, pleased to think they’ll suffer for centuries after he’s exiled them to another dimension (which casts a different light on his ‘don’t kill, safely contain’ insistence.

 

Donna made the point that he needs to travel with people to keep him grounded, keep him from the darkness. But this episode shows us how his love for people can pull him to the darkness.

 

Another thing – someone on t’other place suggested that The Doctor might be connected to the Toymaker et al, might be from there, might be one of them, the Lord of Time… which makes me think why the Doctor instinctively knows what could happen if he uses salt, if he plays into these superstitions, that he might let magic into the world, why this could be the effect. I wonder if Ruby coming to this world might be one of the effects. I’m very much thinking of this as a twelve episode season/arc.

[FozzyB @fozzyb]

“Do you want GAAD HIMSELF to appear in a cloud of fart and then astral lightening the mooks? Or maybe rip their hearts out Dumb n Dumber stylee??? U bin watchin too much Marvel mate! Dat is bad fur ur brain. Eat more pulses. Chill.

 

Also… he has fallen in lust. Awwww! Have you only the emotional depth of a teaspoon, man?!!!”

 

Can I have a translation please @ps1l0v3y0u as my head exploded

[janetteB @janetteb]

@juniperfish. I wondered if 1813 was a J.A. reference. Well done.

I have finally caught up with the episode. Lots of fun, light but very enjoyable. I have been following the comments (Yes before watching, I cheat). A few things I noted. He promises to take Rogue to Gallifrey. Does that mean that Gallfirey still exists? Loved the “don’t call me Doc” line. Yes.

Liked the Dungeons and Dragons reference. The kids (son and his girlfriend) want to know if the new Boss is a Dungeon master; a story teller entity and they are wondering if Susan Twist is the dungeon master.  Son thinks the Rogue is not necessarily a “good guy” and the ring might be a tracking device.  also they pointed out that Rogue recognised the old Doctor faces. He certainly reacted to Tennant’s image. (they just raced out to talk to us about the episode as they watched it last night.)

My own thoughts re the recurring Susan Twist. I do hope she isn’t too much like Badwolf, an image spread through time as a warning to the Doctor or a call for help.

I did come up with a last desperate attempt to tie it all back to Susan. Maybe the big bad boss had captured Susan in and has her hostage in a bad to draw in the Doctor.

Back to being serious, I don’t think  I can add anything to all the wonderful theorising above. I do enjoy reading everyone’s posts.

Cheers

Janette.

 

 

 

 

[janetteB @janetteb]

I did have one minor gripe with the episode, Ruby telling Bird/girl that she can be whatever she wants, go climb mountains etc. Very 21st century and wrong. A young woman in 1813 would have very limited choices. There were jobs for women of education who were skint, governess, computer, etc but they were not really considered “respectable”. Most careers were reserved for men, higher education was reserved for men, travel, alone, was not tolerated for a woman and there would be all sorts of obstacles for a single woman. Emma Thompson got it right in Sense and Sensibility with the line that women cannot even earn their living. Marriage for a woman in 1813 was career and that is what Pride and Prejudice is really about, not romance but hard nosed opportunism.

but this, as is remarked upon in the script, is more Bridgerton, a fantasy concoction of the past inspired by Jane Austen. It is a fantasy brought to us third hand.

cheers

Janette

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@fozzyb
you expressed an opinion as to how The Doctor should not behave… or how Doctor Who should not be written. It begged the question… how would you want this character, with all its history, to be presented? Kindly spell out what you would like to see. Bear in mind this series has been marked by two well publicised departures, and many people want to talk about this, even joining the forum apparently specifically to do this, while exhibiting little evidence that they’ve ever watched Who before.

However, put like that, it all sounds a bit worthy, so I zhushed it up. It’s like Roger Rabbit cuffed to Bob Hoskins. In my head anyway.

I’m not saying feeble Doc syndrome ain’t a problem. How many times did Peter Davison really need to surrender? But in comparison, Ncuti is almost The Timelord Invictus, if not A Good Man Off To War. Only sociopaths raised by religious fanatics think it’s a good idea to kill Hitler. As RTD and Moff both point out, this is not what you want. No more than Pertwee’s Venusian Aikido. Or Colin Baker’s acid bath wisecracks.

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@janetteb

He promises to take Rogue to Gallifrey. Does that mean that Gallfirey still exists?

Yes I noticed that and I was happy, as I was not a fan of the re-genociding of Gallifrey by the Dhawan Master. It detracted IMHO from the fact that the War Doctor was responsible/ the 9th and 10th and 11th Doctors believed he was responsible for the genocide of Gallifrey (until The Day of the Doctor changes things for the 11th) in order to stop the Time War.

But Gatwa’s Doctor may have been planning to travel back in time to take Rogue to Gallifrey before the Master’s genocide. He still tells Rogue that he’s lost “everyone” so I suspect continuity with the Dhawan genocide remains for now.

I love your kids’ idea that the new “Boss” is a D&D Dungeon Master – love it! So essentially the Doctor is in a live-action role-play right now, and other “players” may be aware of the game – possibly Rogue and I keep wondering if maybe Ruby too.

Rogue’s name suggests a rogueishness, certainly, but he seems to genuinely fall for the Doctor. Perhaps Rogue’s “new boss” is the same as the Meep’s boss, and they were instructed to play a certain part in the story the Games Master/ Dungeon Master concocted for the Doctor. But, in the midst of that, they developed real feelings for the Doctor.

@miapatrick – love the suggestion the Doctor might actually be a member of the Toymaker’s species/ entity class without realising it.

@ps1l0v3y0u that ties in with our mutual love for the Doctor’s Willy Wonka moment, because the Doctor too, in that characterisation, is (like the Toymaker and his Pantheon perhaps) master of a world of “pure imagination” (as the song goes)…

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@juniperfish

The relationship of the showrunners with The Timelords is weird. Can’t live with or without them. Let’s face it both RTD and Zchib thought they could do without. Moff seemed to enjoy having them around, like aged parents pottering around forever in a big crumbly house.

But even he kept them at arms’ length. After the magisterial perfection of War Games, they were pants weren’t they? I have feeling the Gallifreyan’s that Moff really liked were the Shobogans; farmers in an arid land who build big ramshackle barns. I dunno, did the ‘Death Particle’ wipe it out or was it a victim of t’floox? One day I will watch that sorry mess; straight jacketed in a secure facility maybe.

Was just the officer class hunted down, like an intergalactic Katyn massacre? Thereafter is Gallifrey an arcadian wilderness, languishing at the end of time, where wandering bands of Shobogans sing Leela with or without Eric’s riffing (see what I did there?) Just the place go hiking Rogue esquire I reckon.

Moff and RTD also differed into relation to the nature of the time war. Moff’s looked comparatively conventional, not a hand-mine in sight, whereas RTD’s was obviously more of a Big Bang/River’s Wedding barking brain blower.

I just wanted to see the (K)Nightmare Child…

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@ps1l0v3y0u

@juniperfish

Could RTD2’s long-term plan be to bring the Timelords back? In fact, could he have decided to accept Chibnall’s eradication of the Timelords  in order to bring them back?

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

@blenkinsopthebrave

“Could RTD2’s long-term plan be to bring the Timelords back? In fact, could he have decided to accept Chibnall’s eradication of the Timelords  in order to bring them back?”

Hmmm how do we know that Gnutidoc hasn’t already done it the impression I got from the beginning of the Xmas Special was that the Doctor had already been traveling alone before he met Ruby so how do we not know that he hadn’t already “saved” or somehow recreated the Timelords in some fashion given the revelations about his past. Also @ps1l0v3y0u isn’t part of the original Cartmel plan that the Doctor was always something more than an ordinary Timelord  either a reincarnation of an ancient Timelord or an actual ancient Timelord so the Doctor being actually a lost member of the “Celestial Gods” race like the Toymaker may not actually be beyond reasonable thinking, though I doubt it is part of RTDs  actual plan.

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

@blenkinsopthebrave

“Could RTD2’s long-term plan be to bring the Timelords back? In fact, could he have decided to accept Chibnall’s eradication of the Timelords  in order to bring them back?”

Hmmm how do we know that Gnutidoc hasn’t already done it the impression I got from the beginning of the Xmas Special was that the Doctor had already been traveling alone before he met Ruby so how do we not know that he hadn’t already “saved” or somehow recreated the Timelords in some fashion given the revelations about his past. Also @ps1l0v3y0u isn’t part of the original Cartmel plan that the Doctor was always something more than an ordinary Timelord  either a reincarnation of an ancient Timelord or an actual ancient Timelord so the Doctor being actually a lost member of the “Celestial Gods” race like the Toymaker may not actually be beyond reasonable thinking, though TBH I doubt it is part of RTDs  actual plan.

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

Oop that was supposed to be an edited version of the previous post😖

[WhoHar @whohar]

@devilishrobby

This is the thing now: given the Timeless Child plotline, then the TLs can be recreated from the Doc’s DNA at any point. We don’t have to bring the old ones back, just create a whole new set.

I’m a bit 50-50 on bringing the TLs back in whatever form (except Omega, but no-one’s buying that). I did wonder if all the hoohar (Whohar?) around Millie Gibson’s departure is all smoke and mirrors, and that maybe she will regenerate at the end of this season, or early next.

And, talking of other TLs, isn’t the Doctor’s daughter still out there? Maybe she’s re-Jenny-rated into Ruby?

[snocita @snocita]

Really??!!

A Bridgerton take off seems like a good idea for The Doctor!!?!!

Not!!!!

The shallowness of plot ideas continues unabated.

So the target audience shifted from pubescent teenagers to middle-aged romantics.

Those are fine target audiences for some shows, but not for science fiction.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@snocita Actually plenty of middle aged romantics love science fiction and many people watch both Bridgerton and Sci Fi.

@juniperfish I will tell the “kids”, (well into their twenties but always kids to me) that you approved of their theory. I have not seen them this excited about Dr Who for a long time and that is very pleasing.

@ps1l0v3y0u and @blenkinsopthebrave, Seeing more of the not time lord inhabitants of Gallifrey would be welcome indeed. I would like Dr Who to develop other, non human cultures more and Gallifrey seems like a good start which is why the second destruction was not only pointless but depleted future story potential.

Cheers

Janette

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@janetteb

The Timelords are generally unsympathetically portrayed… brutal imperialists, dupes, and effete Pythonesque bureaucrats. Mind you the Shobogan’s of the Invasion of Time were equally ludicrous. Maybe Leela sorted them out.

The Doctor’s foster mum and dad from Listen would be the holy grail. But a light touch required. Still, could their respective relationships with the Shobogans be what defined The Doctor and The Loon?

What we don’t need to see are any more of Omega’s chicken headed mooks.

@snocita

One advantage of being old enough to remember ancient Who eras is you recognise patterns: the corporation’s reoccurring desire to make the show into a nice safe soap or other revenue/rating maxing format; the risk posed by poor writing; ludicrous monsters and ludicrous universe ending perils; and the kidult dilemma, how far is it safe to get behind the sofa?

Trope raiding is another constant theme. I also prefer sci fi references, but the modern show is committed to pseudo historicals. I’d like them to go the whole hog and treat the subject matter more seriously. It would be a thankless task.

So, there you are: one light hearted ep, keeping the costume designers happy, in a season of deliberately surreal scenarios warped by The Pantheon. But it added to the arc and the characters.

If you want to check out a truly bizarre and pointless historical, watch Black Orchid. Desperate show runner referencing Brideshead Revisited (Evelyn Waugh based costume smasheroo). 40 years old snd counting. The ultimate non sci fi fluff. It also had a rubbish plot designed to rib the show’s worst actor, prone to being hungover on set, before they wrote him out for good in the next ep.

Seriously, I know you joined the forum specifically to complain, and we’re all here to promote sensible discussion, but really, Bridgeton isn’t a problem; the Corporation (in this era Disney) may still be.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@devilishrobby

Do you think Zchib had a very very bad photocopy of Cartmel 2.0?

Andrew Cartmel was deeply unhappy with the way The Timeless Children was done. The creative decision, not the plot device. So, did he know what was in Cartmel 2.0?? As the (almost) saviour of Classic Who, I can’t believe RTD didn’t seek his opinion. Moff and RTD’s arcs dovetailed reasonably well; I’m sure C2.0 was discussed in outline, maybe with Mathieson, Zchib and others.

Indeed Moff has said The Timeless Children was quite logical but he, like RTD, considers himself a custodian of Who. Don’t lose the sale! RTD has said Zchib is his good buddy. Not heard a lot of positive traffic in the other direction have we? And Jodie wasn’t going to dance for anyone else.

Was Zchib hamfisted in dealing with C2.0? Or did he just want to get it done and dusted? T’floox seems to have been more than a little Gottendammerung. Dunno, only seen the stills. And I hate Wagner.

 

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

I feel like we haven’t talked about Rogue’s line about loss – sometimes the simplest dialogue is the best:

“We travelled together, we had fun, and then one day a day came along, and at the end of that day, I lost them.”

I love that line – it captures the shock and the banality, the unexpected finality of loss. We know death is coming, eventually, for everyone we love, but it’s still a surprise on the day.

Excellent stuff.

[Cath Annabel @cathannabel]

Oh, @juniperfish, that line hit me straight in the gut…

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

I have been amusing myself by scanning the web for outlandish theories about what might happen in the two-parter finale. Most are just versions of Triad Technology, so I thought I would throw in the one thing I would love to see (and based on RTD2 saying that there will be some sort of reference to the period of the Pertwee Doctor).

I think it would a real hoot if RTD2 could use his large Disney budget on voice and facial technology to bring back the Roger Delgardo Master!

But I am, alas, prepared for disappointment on that front.

 

[WhoHar @whohar]

@blenkinsopthebrave

Delgado would be great. Still the best Master. I really enjoyed his and Pertwee’s verbal sparring.

 

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@janetteb  @juniperfish

On the subject of Gallifrey, it would certainly be possible for the Doctor to go back because the planet itself was not destroyed, but whether he would want to revisit a lifeless planet, let alone take anyone else there, is another matter. That is unless, as Juniperfish suggested, he chose to travel back in time to before the genocide. It always puzzled me that this possibility was never mentioned during all the years following the time war when the Doctor believed he had destroyed his home planet – but then it is unlikely he would have wanted to  do so: it would have been too painful.

That set off another train of thought. In The Timeless Children the Master showed the Doctor the ruins of the Time Lord citadel and told her that he had killed all the Time Lords. But did he, in his massive hissy fit, also destroy the ordinary Shobogans? The Doctor must presumably have believed so, because if she had thought otherwise it would have been completely out of character for her to countenance the use of the death particle by herself or anyone else, even to get rid of the new breed of regenerating cybermen. On the other hand it is possible that such a consideration did not occur to Chibnall, and I strongly suspect that may in fact have been the case. Either way the death particle, if or when deployed, would have ensured that there were no survivors.

But were all the Time Lords destroyed by the Master in the first place, or only those on Gallifrey? What about Rassilon and the others whom Capaldi Doctor sent into exile in Hell Bent?  Maybe they returned once they thought the coast was clear again, but perhaps they are still be out there in the universe at large, with all with their arrogance and potential for trouble – and no doubt a desire for revenge.

 

 

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@mudlark @juniperfish @janetteb @whohar @blenkinsopthebrave

Re the mysterious 3 Doctor tribute and the gaming pantheon, the hints about AI, alternate flawed realities and the rest…

would the crazy machine from Carnival of Monsters fit the bill??

As for Gallifrey… 15 did say to Ruby that the Loon’s TL genocide was universal in scope, didn’t he? It actually hunted down and murded the lot. And 15 can tell. Like 10. Unless he’s wrong, because 10 was wrong too.

TTC was so incoherent and riddled with superfluous and absurd ersatz Unobtainium grenades and Kryptonite caltrops, is it worth picking through it? People mock the Absorbaloff, honestly TTC might as well have been written in crayon.

So… was Gallifrey torched with the ‘Time Cybermen’??? Dunno. Who’d be a lowly Shobogan? Maybe RTD is happy not go there, like his first spell.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@mudlark @juniperfish @janetteb @blenkinsopthebrave
@ps1l0v3y0u

would the crazy machine from Carnival of Monsters fit the bill??

I like this. Maybe Unit finds it behind an old filing cabinet buried under a pile of the 3rd Doc’s frilly shirts and capes? And next to a bi-generated Delgado Master. And Omega 🙂

I am increasingly convinced that what we are watching is some alternative / altered reality. Whether that’s an AI generated version of the Docs life, or he’s somehow crossed universes, or he’s in a game or a machine, or it’s a simulation,  are all in play. But…if so, it does feel a bit like a rehash of previously used ideas.

I’m quite looking forward to the finale, and am hopeful it will deliver a satisfying resolution.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@whohar

Yes, agree entirely about alternate/altered reality. And still think music may be important. Or not.

 

[syzygy @thane16]

@whohar @mudlark @janetteb @juniperfish @ps1l0v3y0u @blenkinsopthebrave @cathannabel

yes! I also think it’s an altered reality. I was rewatching Church on RR  & saw STRIAD (Tardis) -I’ve been slow on that front. Also an early episode actually mentioned the doctor’s granddaughter which I don’t think has happened in decades?

But on the issue of an altered dimension and one where the Pantheon are mentioned, where snowflakes are formed from Ruby’s tears, coupled with Tennant’s unease regarding calling into the universe, a myth or superstition AND Unit admitting that supernatural elements take up a fair amount of time, “now,” all points towards an altered reality….

Even Ruby taken to a planet, where the SAME shot appears- remembering Ecceleston’s 2nd episode (and the names? Ruby/Rose)- standing in front of the ship’s screen at the same time as the Doctor has “soniced” her phone so she can call her mum…All very similar.

*Then* we meet Rogue -and wasn’t Capt Jack a rogue? Yet this most recent episode feels a lot like Girl in the Fireplace too….

Even dealing with one lone bomb big enough to explode the planet is reminiscent of Eccesltone’s episode, Dalek…. It’s interesting how Rose begs the Doctor to let her see her dad (Father’s Day) but here the Doctor explains clearly why Ruby can’t ever go back to the Church on RR..

and is Mrs Flood a baddie? She didn’t  want to speak to the scary “staring” lady in 73 Yards when everyone else dismissed this as “not a problem.”  Mrs Flood made it clear it was certainly no problem of hers.
@juniperfish this episode dealt with loss beautifully. And yes, those lines delivered with Rogue’s liquid eyes were a jab to the heart: “at the end of that day I lost them.” It IS demonstrative of loss: “It’s always sudden.”

@ps1l0v3y0u “no more chicken headed mooks.” Well, amen to that!

seems to me that the Doctor has been “gifted” a perfect BFF who is clever, kind, helpful, and has a secret which the Doctor enjoys solving…. I wonder whether one of the Pantheon have decreed all of this for the Doctor…. But it doesn’t explain Mrs Flood yet, nor what you clever people all noticed, which is the Doctor crying but not knowing he is….?

Puro.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@mudlark @janetteb @juniperfish @ps1l0v3y0u @blenkinsopthebrave @cathannabel

And still think music may be important.

and

the Doctor crying

Cry me a River….

[WhoHar @whohar]

@thane16

Apologies. Meant to add you to my previous post

[syzygy @thane16]

@ps1l0v3y0u

“River’s wedding barking brain blower.” 🙂 🙂

wasn’t it just? and I SO wanted to see the nightmare child! I had visions it _was_ the Doctor, at one point.
I’m envisioning something different now: is Ruby her own mother? I think not as @mudlark pointed out -it’s not a particularly great twist: “there’s *always* a twist..”

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@thane16

My theory is The (K)nightmare Child was an obscene Gallifreyan tech weapon named for The (very disillusioned) War Doctor by increasingly fascistic Time Lords because he was their Bismark. Also featuring Rassilon as The Could Have Been King. The rest of it was just maaad.

And brontosaurus’s were thin at one end, thick in the middle, and thin again at the other.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@thane16

Re Church on Ruby Road… a bubble/AI generated universe mirroring (meta-ing and illustrating) the history of Who…

Carla. Clara.

Lulu(Bill)… lulubelle 3… Atom Heart MOTHER (ok maybe it’s just a stupid name) but… 3! 3 babbies. 3 cradles.

Chib’s Who moved to Sunday. Doctor 5 broadcast on  Mundays (and Tuesdays… have we had a Tuesday yet?)

Most of Please Please Me was recorded on a Monday.

Maestro refers to the carol of the bells and Ruby’s summoned snow as the power of The Oldest One. We saw Face of Boe expire in the end, but who waited for The Doctor in The Matrix at the end of the universe, then went off to do it all again?

And the end of the universe is where 12 went to discover what was under the bed.

 

Unrelated query… I assume Rogue’s magical triangle deposits him and the ickle birdies in different places or 15’s love interest would seem to have a rather pressing problem.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@thane16 on echoes of the past the Doctor recalling promising to keep Ruby safe reminded me of the promise he made to Jackie to keep Rose safe.

I also think this is an alternative universe, and there is a “mastermind” pulling the strings. I am reminded of the Mind Robber but maybe just because it is one of the few Troughton/doc episodes I have seen. Son2 commented last night on all the familiar horror tropes in 73 yards. Maybe that is deliberate. the mockery of the people in the pub implies that they at least dismissed fairy rings as nonsense superstition.

I think that Ruby’s ability to summon snow is probably important. She is the daughter of the Snow Queen? Who is the Who Universe Snow Queen? Um. Think I should go off and do something useful and wait to Saturday.

cheers

Janette

[Krathoon @krathoon]

I find that fact that they brought Mel back to be suspicious. I am thinking that the main villain is the Rani. That ties into Mel coming back because the Rani imitated her in the past.

It seems like they are setting up a scene where she is shocked that it is the Rani. Then the Doctor and Mel will team up to stop her.

I may be wrong, but it does seem to tie the story together.

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

@ps1l0v3y0u re your comment about the Absorbalof  being drawn in crayon ….well it was as it happens it was it came from a Blue Peter competition as I remember.
On another note I’ve noticed from my sky planner there is only one episode being screened on the BBC on Saturday but I was under the impression that episodes7+8 were being shown back to back.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@krathoon

The Rani. Hmm. Had not thought of her, but someone with a bright red fingernail did pick up the Toymaker’s gold tooth containing the Master at the end of “The Giggle”…

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@devilishrobby

I think I read somewhere that both episodes would be screened back to back in selected cinemas on the 24th.

 

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

Ah so maybe that is what I was thinking of.

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@devilishrobby

I actually said The Timeless Children might as well have been written in crayon… it seems pointless to observe the absorbaloff was more entertaining and believable.

@janetteb

I thought the glimpse in Rogue of a certain thesp who once worked with the actor who played 8 changed the narrative on the snow… and especially in relation to the final moments of Boom.

@krathoon

Personally, I thought they brought Mel back just to annoy me. If it was to do with the Rani they could have brought back Nichola Bryant, or the T Rex, either of which might be preferable.

The foundling theme might extend to incorporate the Rani if she were an incarnation of Tecteun. Same skill set and (lack of) ethics.

[syzygy @thane16]

@krathoon @blenkinsopthebrave

Ah, yes, bright red fingernail. I like it.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@mudlark @janetteb @juniperfish @ps1l0v3y0u @blenkinsopthebrave @cathannabel @thane16

@scaryb @devilishrobby @dentarthurdent @krathoon @miapatrick @cookgroom @bunface @orionhunt @fozzyb @bobbyfatv2 @spacedmunkee @craig

 

Thought I’d do a recap ahead of the two-part finale.

What needs clearing up:

1. Who is Ruby’s mother / mysterious woman who dropped her at the church
2. And, by extension, who is Ruby?
3. Who is Mrs Flood, and why does she know what a TARDIS is?
4. Why does the same face / person keep appearing in each episode (aka the Susan Twist mystery)?
5. Are the Doctor and Ruby in an altered / alternate reality and, if so, what is the nature of that?
6. Who is The One who Waits?
7. Why was there an additional Doctor in the faces scan in Rogue?

[WhoHar @whohar]

What’s been observed / themes

1. The Doctor cries. A lot.
2. Music permeates the stories
3. Snow
4. The Doctor puts his foot in it / steps on things.
5. The Doctor may not be the only Great saviour / he’s been ineffective in saving people.
6. Mavity
7. Toys
8. Salt at the end of the universe which means fantasy / myth are bleeding into the universe.

[WhoHar @whohar]

Bonkers Theories

1. Ruby Is Susan
2. Mrs Flood is Susan
3. Susan Twist is Susan (seeing a theme here)
4. Ruby is another of the Timeless Children.
5. The Doctor and Ruby are in an alternative universe
6. The Doctor and Ruby are trapped in a machine
7. The Doctor and Ruby are trapped in a game
8. The Doctor and Ruby are in a simulation
9. The Doctor is part of a wider Pantheon cf Cartmel.
10. An AI-generated reality, based on the Doctor’s life / Doctor Who the TV Show (Meta)
11. The “extra” Doctor in the face scan is the one from Shada, or the Valeyard.
12. Return of AN Other Timelord e.g. Master, Omega
13. A Godlike creature pulling all the strings.

Probably missed a lot of theories out, and apologies to anyone I’ve missed off the list.

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@whohar exellent summary!

To your “What needs clearing up” list I’d add:

8. Who is the Meep’s boss and is that the same as Rogue’s new boss?

9. To whom did the mysterious red-finger-nailed hand belong, which picked up the gold tooth the Master is supposedly trapped in?

10. Why could Maestro sense that the oldest of the Toymaker’s Pantheon was present at Ruby’s foundling event?

11. Why does Ruby have a song, Carol of the Bells, trapped inside of her?

12. Why does the TARDIS keep making a groaning noise (she did it when Rogue came on board, for example)? Is some kind of temporal paradox event disturbing her?

and under your “Bonkers Theories” we’ve also had:

12. Addendum to your 12 – the Rani is the AN Other Timelord who will return

14. Ruby is her own mother

15. Ruby is related to River (snow = form of water)

16. Ruby is related to Rose (Ruby drinks in The Spinning Wheel pub in London and so does Jackie, Rose’s Mum)

17. Ruby is a simulation/ fantasy character

 

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@whohar

Love the above!  Indeed, Mrs Blenkinsop and I have been having a similar discussion that covers many of your points over a glass of wine. (And I hasten to add (on this international forum) that as we live off the west coast of Canada, the wine is being consumed at 6pm…

To respond to your Bonkers Theories:

1,2,3. No.

4. Perhaps…

5. Quite possibly.

6. Probably not.

7. Maybe.

8. Maybe.

9. Perhaps (but would need more evidence).

10. I am attracted to that. Mrs Blenkinsop is more sceptical.

11. If you mean Shalka, then yes.

12. Could be.

13. Speaking from a totally secular house, maybe!

Phew! Time for another glass of wine…

 

[janetteB @janetteb]

Ah reading through @whohar‘s list it occurred to me that maybe the “other face” of the Doctor is an alternative Cartmell type Doctor who is the Boss referred to and the Doctor at the end has to over come themselves. The alt Doctor is the “big bad”. All the horrible things that have happened to them, finally cause a switch to flick, (touching on one of the kid’s theories which I hotly disputed at  the time) and the Doctor to turn. It won’t be the current regen however. And Susan will return to help, (There I drew her into the story) and the Susan Twist appearances are a clue from Susan. (al Badwolf)

Um.

Cheers

Janette.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@blenkinsopthebrave

Enjoy the wine. I used to visit Vancouver many years ago – a great city. And (bah!) yes Shalka.

@janetteb

The alt Doctor is the “big bad”

I like this very much.

[WhoHar @whohar]

The Season 1 / 14 / 40  Finale Theory

An attempt at tying some of the disparate threads together:

Omega has been trapped for millennia in an antimatter universe but waiting for a chance to escape (he is The One Who Waits).

He eventually finds a way back in, say via the Timeless Child portal, at the same time that the 14th Doctor sprinkles the salt at the edge of the Universe. This salting prevents Omega’s anti-matter self from being annihilated, and his very presence then alters our current universe, leading to various anachronisms like “mavity”, Goblins, additional Doctor et al. (some timey-wimey needed here).

His plan was to wipe out the Time Lords but, upon finding that Gallifrey and all of them were gone, Omega searched the universe for any remaining TLs finding only the 14th Doctor.

He decided against a direct attack (due to the fact that the Doctor has defeated him twice previously), so created the Pantheon and used the Meep, and Toymaker to try and wipe the Doctor out. Omega then interfered with the subsequent regeneration in an attempt to kill 14, but instead caused the bi-generation.

14 then goes into hiding (Chameleon arch) and is disguised as Mrs Flood.

Omega engineers a sim-Ruby and arranges for one of the Pantheon to leave her at the Church, meddling with time to ensure sim-Ruby and the Doctor meet up. After Maestro fails to kill Doctor 15, Omega tries a change of strategy. He sends sim-Ruby and the Doctor on a series of simulations (based in part on the Doctor’s past) which Omega is using to find the Doctor’s weaknesses. This culminates in a showdown at Unit HQ where Omega wins and everyone is killed a piece of the 3rd Doctor’s sonic / Tardis is used to send Omega back to his netherworld again.

And Susan Twist is just an RTD joke.

Probably more holes than a block of Swiss cheese, and (almost) certainly wrong. And, yes, I have got too much time on my hands.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@whohar,

Yes,  Vancouver has its charms, but Vancouver Island, where we live, has a few more. Unfortunately, the BBC has shown no interest in filming Who here, so the local film industry is dependent on the dubious appeal of Hallmark movies.

 

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@whohar, OK, that finale theory is pretty damn brilliant.

 

 

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