S33 (7) 11 – Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS

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  • #7206
    Anonymous @

    @blenkinsopthebrave – “On the question of the Doctor’s name, when Clara points out that she had read his name in the book, the thing he seemed to get quite upset about was the issue of why he called himself the Doctor. As I think has been established now all the references to Doctor Who are just a blind to to the real question of why Doctor Who.”

    Or, as in Hide:

    ‘Doctor what?’

    ‘If you like.’

    I’m also fond of @@bluesqueakpip ‘s children theories.  Although they were a bit disturbing personally for me, as a childless person with no other direct descendents in my immediate family line (outwith the Airedales, as in my avatar; but sadly I know that I will outlive them.  I guess I’m kinda/sorta like a Doctor figure to them, come to think of it – they’re definitely my companions and I know so much more about their short lives than they do of themselves.)  (Not to imply, in any way shape or form, that the Doctor looks upon his companions as ‘pets’!)

    #7208
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @blenkinsopthebrave and @jimthefish

    Apologies for the somewhat massive post…

    Firstly I’d say that while the Doctor has had children, he currently doesn’t know he still has children (or grandchildren, or great-grandchildren. ALL his children (that we know of) are ‘presumed dead’, even though the audience knows this presumption to be false in the case of Jenny.

    Secondly, I’d say there are at least three routes for the Doctor to become a father/grandfather again: one is to bring back Jenny (and since the actress is Mrs David Tennant, they could probably sneak in some filming as she officially ‘brings the kids down to visit the set’). The second is to have River’s strange refusal to travel long-term with the Doctor at the end of Time of Angels be due to her pregnancy. The third is to give the Doctor a great-granddaughter via Susan.

    Thirdly, I’d say that there’s another route (which may also include the above options). That’s to have – while the Doctor was planning to Time Lock Gallifrey – his Gallifreyan Companions Romana, Leela and Susan somehow plan to preserve the Time Lords as a race, if not a culture. Getting the next generation, the as-yet-unborn, out. So that while the Doctor may be the Last of the Time Lords, he’s not the last of his race.

    And if I can think of all these possible routes, I’m sure Steven Moffat can think up something. I’m fairly sure he’s going in the direction of the Doctor being a father/grandfather/great-grandfather again – I can’t think he’d bring up a theme of ‘children’ without resolving it somehow.

    Incidentally, Clara might be simultaneously a completely ordinary (if unusual) human girl and the Doctor’s Great-granddaughter. If Susan was Chameleon Arched during the Time War, then gave birth to Clara, Clara would be an entirely human child. But still the Doctor’s great-granddaughter.

    Which might be still another way of connecting him back to the universe without having to bring back his race. The Time Lords are gone – but the Doctor has human descendants.

    #7209
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @Shazzbot – my situation as well. But when I was thinking about the theory, I did notice how much I tend to connect to other people’s children. Even when childless, you’re often passing on your skills, knowledge and passions to the next generation.

    #7210
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @bluesqueakpip Re: The Doctor and (his) Children. Wow, a really brilliant summary of the various possibilities. I particularly like your last scenario.

    #7211
    OsakaHatter @osakahatter

    @bluesqueakpip, @ardaraith… we’ve also noticed there’s been lots of parent/child themes in Moffat’s reign.  As well as the examples you mention above, children either without parents or with substitute parental figures are frequent, maybe a mirrored perspective of the childless parents? Clara most recently (wonder if her getting lost as a child is relevant or just a riff on the same theme?), but little Amy seemingly alone in that big house (with her aunt if I remember right?), Melody growing up without parents, governesses substituting for deceased mothers.  Dr Simeon?  Miss Kizlet?

    Parents link to the past, children to the future (red shift blue shift?) – without either, perhaps the doctor has nothing to define his place in the universe, as you said, drifting like a ghost, looking for companions, but any old companion won’t cut it anymore (“I thought she’d be more fun”).  I don’t think it was a coincidence that he was at his most settled when he had his new family, in-laws and all.

    It’s also a very clear difference from RTDs time when all companions had well established family lives. I’ve always felt SM is trying to move the series back closer to original-who in terms of moving away from the Doctor as all conquering super hero, back to more localised stories, rather than universe under threat, ever greater stakes type things.  The TARDIS seems to be getting her eccentricity/unpredictability back, the Doctor feels more alien.  I thought perhaps it would culminate with the time lords being re-instated into the universe. However, maybe as has been suggested above it will be more of a tie in with ‘An Unearthly Child’. Some restoration of the Doctors line would make sense of the family themes and give him new purpose.

    #7212
    Anonymous @

    @osakahatter – great post.  I too have cogitated on the heavily family-oriented stories since the re-boot:  Rose’s mum and dad, and boyfriend even;  Martha’s family;  and Donna’s family.

    Although Amy turned up with only a boyfriend they turned out to be quite close family relations by the end, and then her father-in-law became an honourary companion, but it wasn’t at all the same.

    And now Clara, whose father was mentioned simply by way of a transcribed telephone message complaining about the government.  To be honest, and as a nu-Who viewer who is ignorant of the canon, I thought it was vital that the Doctor have to contend not only with his companion of the day but also with their families, and their commitments to their families.

    I just now have understood why I think the current series so sterile (and the Amy/Rory ones as well) – Clara doesn’t have any family back on modern-day Earth to be worried about.  In fact, I was surprised there wasn’t any chat about her having to go back and check on her dad at the end of this episode.

    It may be more ‘classic Who’ but I think it’s a wrong turn to remove companions from their families.  The companion is the viewer and all of us viewers have families who would be bothered by our disappearances into that blue box – and the changes wrought by said experiences.

    #7213
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @osakahatter. Agree 100%. I have also wondered if Moffat might find a way of referencing Hartnell’s lines after he leaves Susan on Earth: “Someday, I shall come back. Yes, someday, I shall come back.” Not sure if those are the exact words, but they are full of the possibility of returning to the beginning.

    #7214
    Anonymous @

    And as a follow-on to that rant, I now think it’s even more vital that companions have a tether to a ‘real life’ when travelling with the Doctor.  If they didn’t have ‘anything to live for’ (i.e., their family back on Earth) then that would make them quite dangerous companions.  They need to sort things, to work things out, to save whole planets / species; because as much as they might adore travelling with the Doctor – doing amazing things and seeing astonishing places – they really (like Dorothy) need to Go Home at the end.  They might chat in intimate moments with the Doctor about how they’re always going to travel with him, but they need their families even more than all of this danger.

    I’m looking at this through ‘child-friendly tea-time BBC flagship programme’ spectacles, just so’s ya know.

    Personally, I’d always travel with the Doctor myself; but then, I don’t have a family and my dogs – if the return was timed right – wouldn’t even miss their tea.  😉

    #7218
    OsakaHatter @osakahatter

    @Shazzbot – thanks!  But just realised I failed to use cogitated, so don’t think it will qualify as a great post!

    Personally, I love much of what SM has done with the show, but do agree that we need to relate to companions, and that seems to take time in this era.  I thought Amy seemed underwritten until Rory was regularly there to give her purpose, but by the end both of them had had some astonishing performances showcasing how they’d feel to lose the other which I think provided the audience with that connection.  Clara?  She doesn’t seem overly keen on being there at the moment, but doesn’t seem to massively want to be anywhere else either.  Perhaps she goes where she knows she’s needed?  It’s that Mary Poppins thing again. Or was that Nanny McPhee?!

    @blenkinsopthebrave – the more I think about it, the more I’m sure that’s exactly where we’re heading.  Almost like SM wants to get to be able to hand over at the end of his stewardship (whenever that may be) saying, there you go, clean slate, I’ve taken the show back to the beginning and you won’t need to worry about continuity (or that pesky 13 regeneration thing), go tell whatever stories you want.  Not convinced Clara will turn out to be related to the Doc or the Ponds though.  I think she will be an ordinary girl who is made impossible because of the doctor involving himself in her life, but it’s that impossible-ness that has brought her to the Drs attention in the first place.  It fits with the kind of loops SM has been playing with throughout.

    #7225
    Anonymous @

    @OsakaHatter – the only box-set I own is the first nu-who, and that is because the BBC never repeated those episodes (probably due to contractual reasons with C Eccelstone).  And I’m reminded of Adam, the stray they picked up under Utah with the Dalek, and who travelled with them to the future game show episode.  Adam didn’t have any care or affection for his family on Earth, and that made him reckless.  That thingy he got put into his forehead was always going to be a problem, but it just didn’t occur to him.

    All of the Doctor’s Earth-based, family-oriented companions would never have done something so stupid.  So I remain hopeful that whatever S Moffat does with the series, we will end up with a companion who understands that their journeys with the Doctor must end (even if they wish it otherwise) and that they must live with the decisions they’ve made on their travels; and will use what they’ve learnt on their travels to improve their families’ lives.

    Well, that’s the ‘I’m a BBC drone with a tea-time child-friendly show to produce’ line.  And I’m not.  I’m so, so, not.  🙂

    #7226
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

     

    @Shazzbot. Now is the perfect time to go and buy the box sets of old Who. Mainly for the sheer pleasure of old Who! But start at the beginning–“An Unearthly Child”.

    Everyone has THEIR Doctor and mine is Hartnell. As many on this board know, I watched “An Unearthly Child” at the impressionable age of 11 when it was first screened, and MY Who was the period between that episode and the departure of Susan at the end of “The Dalek Invasion of Earth”.

    And here I am, 50 years later, still 11 years old every time I watch it.

    #7227
    Anonymous @

    @blenkinsopthebrave – I have to admit, I’m a bit fearful of the original Who series.  What little I’ve seen reinforces the old tropes of wonky sets and people-in-strange-suits baddies.  It’s one thing to have seen them as an impressionable audience member of the right age group, and entirely another to re-view them with an adult eye jaded by decades-later visual effects and grander budgets (and without that all-important original and impressionable eye).  The BBC website has interesting episode synopses and I have been voraciously reading them.

    Before I alienate an entire website, can I also say that I was raised by parents who thought a half hour a week of TV was more than enough for children; so my TV viewing expectations are sadly superimposed with movies (which said parents somehow didn’t think were so awful).  And so my Doctor Who original series production expectations are probably too much for the original series to withstand.  The stories, though, as per the BBC’s archives, are more than a match for my child-ish story greediness.

    #7228
    janetteB @janetteb

    @jimthefish, re’ your comment back on page 5, No apologies required. I seem to spend a lot of time around science grads these days and keep having to make the same point. NObody should have a degree of any kind if they haven’t learnt to think critically. (some might add spelling to that then I’d be in trouble.)

    Not a problem that applies to our wonderful little corner of the e-verse here. Lots of brilliant analytical thinking going on.

    Now on with two pages of posts to read. You guys across the globe have been busy. Lots of catching up for us on the “night shift”.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #7229
    janetteB @janetteb

    @Bluespeakpip I theorised a few pages back, (probably many pages back by now) that Clara might be caring for the children of Gallifrey, who escaped the Time Lock. I suspect it is more than just coincidence that Clara, the Victorian children and the contemporary children are all motherless. The mother of the children she was caring for died a week after she went to stay. It implies that the death was sudden. We don’t know why Clara’s mother died either. I think there are some mysteries there. I still feel that Clara’s back story wasn’t real. IT was rather like a story, as though he was looking into a book. I don’t think Clara is Susan or a close relation of the Doctors, mostly because she snogged him and we are talking BBC kids show. That did imply however that she had some residual memory of him. I am still considering that she might be a pre LKH (Hope I got that right) regen’ of River. River might have had her infant self taken to England, written as back story for her thus creating an ideal family to adapt her then kept an eye on herself. IT’s against all the rules but would River care?My preferred theory, or many theories still revolve around Clara as not being normal. She appears to be but I suspect much about her is fabricated, not by Clara but maybe by Susan or River. I think she is sent to protect the Doctor, maybe to save him hence being given the telephone number in BoSJ.

    I have just watched the Special about the First Dr and Moffat talks about Susan. It is clear that Moffat accepts Susan as the Doctor’s granddaughter. He sees the Dr as someone who has had family and lost them so I do think the Doctor’s family are significant and the redisovery of those links might be the “game changer”.

     

    Cheers

    Janette

    #7233
    WhoHar @whohar

    @haveyoufedthefish Post #7125

    The new control room bothers me – alot. There has been zero explanation of it in show and I can’t come up with a reason why it would just change. I think it’s another supermassive black clue that is hidden in plain sight. That, and the doc saying he is now 1200 (cf 1103 in TIA and about 900 in the previous series), makes me think it is a different Tardis or the same one perhaps but 97 years older.

    The implications of this could be many, or none.

    My other theory is that all the Docs’ stories (again Doc 2-8) have taken place within the Tardis itself.

    #7234
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @phaseshift, @jimthefish re: Truculent Alexander. I’ll admit I did wonder for a while, when TS posted a few really quite reasonable comments about the foolishness of calling for the cancelling of DW by people just because they don’t like a couple of episodes-

    Until he launched into his insistence that the big friendly button is a DEM- but a DEM cunningly disguised by being foreshadowed. Um- yup. That’s our Alex…

    (good work on that thread, but probably futile…

    #7235
    WhoHar @whohar

    @bluesqueakpip Post #7209

    Even when childless, you’re often passing on your skills, knowledge and passions to the next generation.

    What a great thing to post. The world is richer for it.

    #7236
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @janetteb

    I don’t think Clara is Susan or a close relation of the Doctors, mostly because she snogged him and we are talking BBC kids show.

    But as I recall, Amy made a very obvious attempt to convince the Doctor to have sex with her (just before her wedding) and she turned out to be…his mother-in-law!

    So I do not think the snog between the Doctor and Clara will stop Clara turning out to be his daughter. (A theory I briefly doubted this morning. Thankfully, the doubt has passed.)

    Now to the real issue:

    I have just watched the Special about the First Dr

    What!? And here is me (without access to BBC America) waiting patiently for the box set to be released on Amazon!

    <Blenkinsop goes into a complete funk>

     

     

     

    #7237
    WhoHar @whohar

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    And here I am, 50 years later, still 11 years old every time I watch it.

    It’s fabulous when something takes you back like that. I have a similar experience every time I take amyl-nitrate.

    #7238
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @whohar.

    When you told me that your best friend was a potato, I felt that you would fit right into to the colonies. Now that I know about your strange drug (and, well, sexual) habits, I just KNOW you were meant to be here.

    #7239
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @whohar

    Needless to say, the colonies are enriched by your presence, my friend.

    p.s. when does Fortesque and the bath arrive?

    #7242
    janetteB @janetteb

    @blenkinsopthebrave. Sorry. I cheated.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #7243
    WhoHar @whohar

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    The bath has already arrived – I’ve lent it to @scaryb over On the Sofa – it’s to contain the legion of fish that inhabit that locale.

    Fortescue is still labelling the bricks of WhoHar hall, ahead of the dismantling. I think he’s been slacking off – going down the Baker’s Scarf for a few pints is my guess. Although he’s only 8, he can look much older as he has some remarkable facial hair – I put it down to all coal dust in the chimneys.

    And thanks for the kind words. It can be a bit…isolating here.

    #7244
    FiveFaces @fivefaces


    Hello to all. I’ve been reading the Guardian blog for a couple of years, and have greatly enjoyed the posts from many of you there, but only just found this place (thanks to PhaseShift’s shameless marketing – nice work!). It feels like a less intimidating environment than the Grauniad, so I thought I’d give it a go. This is my first post, and apologies in advance for any lapses in etiquette, or if I repeat things that have already been said elsewhere, or if it’s all a bit wordy. Anyway, here we go.

    Like others here, I found the dialogue between Clara and the Doctor about his name so intriguing that I just can’t help thinking about it. How clever that Clara is cut off not once but twice when she appears on the point of revealing something, and both times by the Doctor (supposing that the creature who startles her in the Library is indeed the future burnt Doctor). It gives us a double helping of unfinished sentences to figure out, and reinforces the sense of a connection between the two scenes.

    Of course, the smart money is on the theory that when Clara looks at The History of the Time War (‘so that’s who…’) she reads the Doctor’s name in the book. But I am puzzled how that links to her later line that she saw his name ‘in one corner of that tiny…’. Perhaps, as I think was suggested by PhileasF, she spots his name in the corner of a tiny(?) illustration in the book, maybe it is a picture of the tiny(?) cot in the book.

    I don’t have any smart money, so may I suggest instead that this is a bit of Moffatian misdirection. My theory is that the revelation given by the Time War book (‘so that’s who…’) and the ‘tiny’ thing with the Doctor’s name on it are two completely separate things. Maybe the ‘tiny’ thing is the cot, or maybe it’s the miniature TARDIS, or maybe it’s something Clara spots when she is looking through the magnifying glass. Anyway, if that’s right – and I recognise that it’s a big ‘if’ — the really big question this leaves us with is who Clara is referring to when she says ‘so that’s who…’. How would that sentence have ended?

    I think that this might link back to something that has been bugging me ever since The Bells of Saint John. Maybe when she looked at the Time War book, Clara was going to say, ‘so that’s who gave me the Doctor’s phone number.’ To me this remains one of the most mysterious things about the whole Doctor-Clara relationship: that someone gives her the Doctor’s phone number. That single act kick-starts everything. Now, there are two things about it that puzzle me. (i) Who has the Doctor’s number? And (ii), even more puzzling, how do they know to give it to Clara? It’s entirely plausible that there’s some old companion knocking around who has the Doctor’s phone number. Presumably, though, they know it’s special, and they wouldn’t give it out to everyone; but they do choose to give it to Clara. Why? Do they recognise her? Is it/she a trap? Maybe this has all been arranged by someone who wants to bring Clara and the Doctor together for more sinister purposes? Maybe it’s someone from the Time War (hence, Clara sees her picture in the book and has the moment of revelation), who knows the Doctor’s number, and who is planning to use Clara to escape from the Time Lock: the mysterious Time Lady from The End of Time, perhaps.

    Again, sorry if that’s all a bit long. I’ll try to make future posts a bit more condensed, but it felt like there was a lot to say!

    #7246
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @wolfweed @Shazzbot @chickenelly @ardaraith

    Yes I too like Lindalee’s theory that the TARDIS is protecting Clara. The Doctor keeps assuming the TARDIS is jealous (ego much!) but perhaps he can’t see how dangerous he is / is becoming whereas Old Sexy can.

    @fivefaces – a warm welcome!

    Yes nice point about the phone number. It makes me think about River again, because back in Asylum of the Daleks the Doctor says “there aren’t many people who can do that – send me a message” to the mysterious “mother” who summons him in fear for her daughter.

    We know fine well River can send him messages, “hello sweetie x” on the psychic paper.

    The TARDIS and River protecting Clara? Clara is definitely River’s daughter or granddaughter and hence also a “child of the TARDIS” (erm maybe)…

    Welcome also to @osakahatter – fits in with all the parent/ child themes you were discussing upthread.

     

     

    #7247
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    Oh and @solongandthanksfor welcome to the boards and to Clan Fish!

    Lovely call-name.

    I only spotted you’d posted because I was looking at the new members list. Not sure what you’ve done there – posted the link to the trailer (a very fine one) in your profile I think? Perhaps our wonderful webmaster @craig can help when he returns from his travels.

    In the meantime – sign in, then click on the most recent dicussion thread, Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS, and post in there to join the conversation.

     

    #7248
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    @juniperfish , @fivefaces , et al. I have a new theory about the “lady in the shop” and “who” Clara saw in the book. What if they *are* the same person, and that person (said loosely) is a baddie? What if the Doctor, in his rush to keep his secrets, silenced Clara before she could say, “and I saw the person who gave me your number.”

    #7249
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    …and in addition, what if this new baddie is a “ghost” from the Doctor’s past?

    #7250
    janetteB @janetteb

    Welcome to all new members. @fivefaces good catch ‘re Clara possibly remarking upon the person who gave her the number rather than the identity of the Doctor. I like it. The Doctor has been remarkably disinterested in that since tBoSJ. I guess he had a lot on his mind. I suspect though the number was given to her by River who knew something about Clara. I think Clara’s role is to protect rather than destroy the Doctor though I’m just as happy to think up bonkers solutions suggesting the opposite. Anything is possible except me getting something right.:)

    Cheers

    Janette.

     

    #7251
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @jimthefish     I was so annoyed by Alexander the Sheep that I decided to rewatch War Games 10 to calm myself – and because I was worried that I had forgotten something and inadvertently misled you. Such a wonderful, heart-breaking episode.

    But no line of TARDIS copies.

    The Doctor lets Jamie and Zoe convince him to try to flee and they run for the TARDIS which has been parked by the Time lords next to a bank of SIDRATs (this is, no doubt, what you were remembering?). Jamie and Zoe are placed into a SIDRAT to be taken home.

    The woman in the shop is obviously an important clue – and thanks @fivefaces for reminding me.  You are right – Clara could have seen anything in the book. But if you are right, then it is likely to be either River or Susan or Jenny (either of them – have we discussed whether Vastra’s Jenny could be the Doctor’s cloned daughter from the Tennant story?) in the shop – Rose being in a different Universe. I suppose it could also be Kate or Martha. Sadly, though, it can’t be Donna. Except time can be rewritten…

    @blenkinsopthebrave  – yes, it is always great when Doctor Who makes you feel like a happy child again…these last three have done that for me.

    #7254
    WhoHar @whohar

    @htpbdet
    That’s a great call on Jenny / Jenny.

    #7256
    FiveFaces @fivefaces

    Thanks to Juniperfish et al. for the welcome! I do agree that, if the woman in the shop comes to have a significant role, there’s a very strong chance that she will turn out to be River, especially since Moffat loves River. Although I’m not clear (a) if or how River would be connected to the Time War, and (b) how River would know who Clara was. Still, maybe it is River. And Clara is, or is somehow related to Susan; and Jenny is indeed Jenny as HTPBDET suggests. The plot thread would then turn out to be all of the women in the Doctor’s life — his wife, daughter and grand-daughter — combining to save him. Throw in his mother (perhaps) from the End of Time, and you’ve practically got a royal flush. I think that would be a lovely storyline.

    But I still think it would be more fun if Clara were to turn out to be not evil herself, but part of some evil mastermind’s evil plan to kill the Doctor. Doing a Turlough, if you like.

    Also, I must admit that when I saw The History of the Time War, I did think of the history of Castrovalva: the book is old, but it tells the history up to the present day!

    #7257
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @fivefaces    I very much like that notion of all the Doctor’s female relatives coming to his rescue…that would be great.

    I don’t think River has to be connected  to the Time War to be the woman in the shop. She just needs to know how the Clara storyline resolves and for the moment in the shop to have happened at a point where the resolution is in Clara’s future but River’s past. And the more I think on it, the more I think it probably is River in the shop.

    Of course, the other great woman in the Doctor’s life is the TARDIS – so there is your Royal Flush!

    I just posted this on t’other place and throw it in here for what it is worth:
    As to the remote control…well, perhaps I am particularly dense, but it did seem to me that the central mystery of Journey was: “Where did that device come from and what’s it for?” That was the puzzle which had to be solved.
    How it was solved involved timey-wimey stuff, but nothing that we really have not seen before in Big Bang or Wedding of River Song or Angels Take Manhattan.
    It bothered me that the Doctor was found outside the TARDIS while Clara was inside it. My nephew (12) pointed out, though, that consistent withDoctor’s Wife, the TARDIS had taken him where he needed to be: outside, so that he could get the remote. And, the TARDIS had made sure Clara stayed inside, so that the Doctor would come looking for her and find the tear. It all made perfect sense to him.
    And I think he is right.

    #7259
    FiveFaces @fivefaces

    @htpbdet: I forgot all about the TARDIS. That’s a lovely point! And yes, River’s timeline is so mixed up that it’s entirely possible that she somehow knows about Clara from the future/past.

    #7264
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @fivefaces I really like the idea of River being resposible for that number Clara got from the shop…. but I cant quite believe it. There is one scene in particular (cant remember the episode – Big Bang maybe) where river gets a call in stormcage from Churchill, because “the TARDIS is clever and redirects the call”, but there was less then a minute left(Van Gogh painted the exploding TARDIS and River grafities the first words in recorded History so she could deliver that to the Doctor). My point is: the TARDIS can redirect calls and I just assumed that she did it again because she knew he wanted Clara so badly. Maybe she got bored (remember her saying “I borrowed you and you flew away with me”)…. maybe it is that simple.

    I am pretty sure (I have a feeling – can be completely wrong of course) that River was (already) in the past of the Doctor. When she pointed out the  cot the children (she((Alex)) mentiones in confidential) might be already born.  That could mean he just realises that (“how do I look” “amazing” “I’d better be”). I have never watched old episodes is that possible?

    … and thanks for the warm welcome from everyone – I enjoy to puzzle over the possibilities with all of you =)

     

    #7265
    Timeloop @timeloop

    But I still dont get how Clara was able to read the book in the first place. Who wrote it???? Galifreyan is not translated by the TARDIS – Timelords can read it. And just recognising the writing (which would be circles as on the cot, right?) and matching them wont tell her anything in particular about the Doctor, would it?

    How did she read it? Who wrote the book?

    #7266
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @timeloop       Welcome.  I think the thing is someone gives Clara the telephone number – that can’t be the TARDIS (unless her soul has been displaced and is finding a way back).

    No doubt the TARDIS could direct a call made, but the woman in the shop gives Clara the number which is needed before the call can be made or redirected.

    River pops up at different times in the Doctor’s life – when they meet she usually does not know exactly what is about to happen, but there is no reason she couldn’t.

    But if River knows that for the Doctor to survive, say, he needs to meet Clara, she could just pop back in time to give her his number in order to try to make sure the Doctor does meet her. Rather like the way she turned up at the Rory/Amy wedding to leave the TARDIS diary which would trigger Amy’s memory and restore the Doctor.

    #7268
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    River was (already) in the past of the Doctor. When she pointed out the  cot the children (she((Alex)) mentiones in    confidential) might be already born.  That could mean he just realises that (“how do I look” “amazing” “I’d better be”). I have never watched old episodes is that possible?

    Hi @timeloop –  Are you saying that River had a child with the Doctor before we even meet him–when he still lived on Gallifrey?

    #7269
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    And we might or might not find out more about the book – but River could easily have written it.

    River and the Doctor have a lot to do before Silence in the Library – and part of that might include her participating in the Time War.

    #7270
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @htpbdet (what a name- what does it stand for?) Yes, but the woman in the shop could have been genuie. A number that really helps you could refer to a good callcenter? And the TARDIS could intercept it because you know that you will need time, when you call a callcenter…. enough time for the doctor to get there. If the TARDIS would have intercepted a normal call Clara would have just hung up… And maybe Clara wasnt in the “right place”(mind) to travel with the doctor before that.

    @ardaraith yep, that is my idea. Didnt SM say, River was a very,very,very (without being as repetitive as I am) important character to the doctor? – Would that be possible?

    #7271
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    @htpbdet – I often wonder whether River could have gone to Gallifrey pre- Time War.  It is certainly something I can see her doing–traveling back to the Doctor’s beginning.  But would that have been possible?  The timey-wimey bit with the timelock, and when she’s born, have made it seem impossible.

    #7272
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @ardaraith how exactly does the timelock interfere with River going there? The war still happened, am I right(it is not a no longer needed timeline)? so everything before the war happened…. Just at that certain point they are stuck. I always thought it to be a lock because they dont know what is comming and they cant inform themselves because it has not happened yet….. in my imagination they are locked in their timestream ( all their jumping in time happens in their timestream where the doctor has not yet done what he did (does that make sense to anyone? ^^”)). that would prevent no one with the needed information to go back ….. Does that make sense? In which episode do they talk about the timelock?

    I am sorry if that cant be discussed in here – just came to my mind

    #7273
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @HTBDET – Yes, River has a working Time Bracelet – she can go anywhere she needs to go.

    I’m still interested in Clara’s ‘So that’s who…’ The name, I think, is on the corner of the tiny TARDIS – she puts it down, glances down, then picks up the magnifying glass. Then she presumably sees it again in The History of the Time War (the metalwork of the title is covered with Gallifreyan symbols, including one I seem to remember is the symbol of the Lord President. The Doctor, of course, is a former Lord President.

    Remembering that Susan could speed-read, Clara also seems to be speed-reading; her eyes flicker over the page as if the actress was doing a quick scan. Turns the page, another quick scan – then sees something she recognises. If it’s an illustration, it’s far more likely to be an illustration of the TARDIS.

    But she definitely delivers the line as if it confirms something she already knew about.

     

    #7274
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    @timeloop – that is a question I don’t have an answer for.  Hopefully one of the Drs. of Who in our midst will explain this. It has been a puzzle to me.  Just what is or was the timelock, and what are its implications, as regards travel back to Gallifrey?

    My understanding was it captured all of Gallifrey’s history, from beginning to end, and locked it in a ‘moment’ of time – no getting in, no getting out.

    #7275
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    how exactly does the timelock interfere with River going there?

    @timeloop (welcome! And a very appropriate handle) – my understanding is like @ardaraith‘s – it’s generally presumed that the timelock has frozen all access to Gallifrey at any point in its present or past. For example, in the End of Time Rassilon can only get a signal through the Timelock by placing it in the personal past of someone already known to be outside the Time Lock.

    It’s therefore presumed that River can’t go visit. Nobody can visit Gallifrey in any era. It’s sealed throughout its timeline – and if you think about it too much, your head may explode, so I’d guess that the history of Gallifrey is frozen in such a way that the only people who can enter or leave from its past are the people who already did. No alterations are allowed – except for planting a mental signal. And it’s strongly implied that was only allowed because it always had been done, and in fact caused much of the life history of that particular character.

    #7276
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @bluesqueakpip @ardaraith @timeloop – agreed!

    Gallifrey is in, in Nu Who, in a “bubble universe” if you like, ahem rather like the one helpfully and probably not coincidentally recently illustrated in Hide

    There, communication could only take place between the sealed bubble universe and this one by “blood calling to blood” – the time traveller descendant of Emma-the-empath contacting her, like a “ghosting” message. 

    So, is someone perhaps contacting the Doctor from inside the Time Lock, someone related to him by blood? Clara says she doesn’t believe in ghosts but…

    #7277
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @bluesqueakpip ” that the only people who can enter or leave from its past are the people who already did” the Doctor did – could he go back if he really wanted(and just does not because he fears that his interaction there ight change the future, which cant because it is fixed time)? What if River did already enter … it’s a bit timey-wimey, i give you that. That one dalek did it (he paid with his mental health, but he brought someone with him…?). If “it’s generally presumed that the timelock has frozen all access to Gallifrey at any point in its present or past” how come some know that timelords existed? Or at any time – so the ones that helped the doctor in the old WHO (he send a distress call(white little box) to timelords to sort something through and to send everybody home while he moved on) They were outside. Would they not be outside the timelock? Because they already did leave and it is in past present and future?

    #7278
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @bluesqueakpip    Yes. But, presumably, her bracelet would not take her now into Gallifrey’s past? But it might mean that she could have gone there before the Time Lock happened?

    End of Time says this:

    Inside the Time War, when the whole War was time-locked – like, sealed inside a bubble. It’s not a bubble but think of a bubble. Nothing can get in or get out of the time-lock. Don’t you see? Nothing can get in or get out, except something that was already there.

    That’s really all we know @timeloop – plus this:

    You weren’t there in the final days of the War. You never saw what was born. But if the time-lock’s broken, then everything’s coming through, not just the Daleks, but the Skaro Degradations, the Horde of Travesties, the Nightmare Child, the Could-Have-Been King with his army of Meanwhiles and Never-weres, the War turning to hell. And that’s what you opened, right above the Earth. Hell is descending!

    But I don’t see that prior to the Time War anything was affected – in the sense that River could have gone to Gallifrey before the Time lock was created.

    And, in a way, why not?

    We have yet to see River’s first encounter with the Doctor. We have seen the Doctor’s first encounter with her, Silence in the Library, but not hers with him. Its possible that happened when the Doctor was Hartnell. We know River has seen more than two incarnations.  If, somehow, River used the bracelet to go to Gallifrey, say. Or if she was caught up in something the Time Lords were sorting out – or if the Doctor had been on a mission and met her and fell in love and brought her back. There are any number of ways she could be Susan’s actual grand-mother.

     

     

    #7279
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    @juniperfish –  You have just excited all manner of particles, and bonkers theorising, with that one!  Truly inspired! I must listen again to the Doctor’s explanation of the bubble universe in Hide, and his discourse on the moment from EoT, then compare. Do any other episodes expound on the timelock?

    #7280
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @htpbdet (what a name- what does it stand for?) Yes, but the woman in the shop could have been genuine. A number that really helps you could refer to a good callcenter? And the TARDIS could intercept it because you know that you will need time, when you call a callcenter…. enough time for the doctor to get there. If the TARDIS would have intercepted a normal call Clara would have just hung up… And maybe Clara wasnt in the “right place”(mind) to travel with the doctor before that.

    [thought you might not have seen that]

    I know most of the quotes you refered to – leaves a lot open. I just always assumed that the past of the timelord would be open, but that they never get new information … in that way a bit locked. that could be what @bluesqueakpip Bluesqueakpip ” that the only people who can enter or leave from its past are the people who already did” ment in the end…. in a way. @htpbdet “But I don’t see that prior to the Time War anything was affected – in the sense that River could have gone to Gallifrey before the Time lock was created.” Yeah, that was my idea …. would be good to get to know more of the timelock and its limits.

    Didnt River already have her first encounter with the Doctor??? in LKH?! He knew everything about her….. Just as she said. And she was impressionable (?), young and all the rest of it. This was her first meeting, wasnt it?

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