Spoilers (2)

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  • #47383
    Anonymous @

    @mersey well yes they are -so “bloomin” as in “bloody hell that’s awful” ??

    Maybe that’s it. I notice no-one from the UK is weighing in here. We are wading about in soggy pants with no answers.

    Perhaps @lisa and others we need to go to the Pub with this -it seems more appropriate?

    #47389
    Kharis @kharis

    @janetteb Brilliant notice on Asylum not the Daleks!

    @bendubz11 I really hope it’s Luke, I love that character.  Something other than a human girl.  Even an older woman, just not another girl.

     

    #47390
    Kharis @kharis

    And for all the haters…. LOVE MOFFAT!  He’s a genius!  Trolls are haters because they are jealous of his genius and insecure as heck.  The writers for Doctor Who have all been incredible.  Russell T Davies, Terry Nation plus all the amazing guest writers are all to be praised not trolled upon.

    #47397
    Anonymous @

    @kharis as I was writing on Sleep No more

    …the theme of imploding universes could be part of the end of this series and into next yr perhaps with the arrival of Gallifrey again -as the TLs ‘leak’ out of the  pocket cup-a-soup ? So I do wonder about how Bad Wolf as it were is something reappearing -it may be referred to like that again or they may stay with cup-a-soup instead or ‘e Space’ even

    #47399
    Kharis @kharis

    @purofilion Wow!  That will be intense.  I am worried about tomorrow.  Haven’t read any of the spoilers outside of here.  What is TL?

    #47404
    Carrieanne @carrieanne

    @kharis I believe TL’s is time lords?

     

    #47407
    Anonymous @

    @kharis sorry missed that -yes @carrieanne is right.

    So, by the time I’ve woken up on Sunday morning you’ll have seen it if you’re UK viewers. Good luck: hope it’s a good one.

    *who the heck is Orson?*

    #47409
    spacedmunkee @spacedmunkee

    I finally watched the prologue to this series, which by the way, debunks my theory of the confession dial being a bootstrap paradox. But anyway, at one stage The Doctor says “An enemy is just a friend you don’t know yet”.

    This series has had a theme of reversal/inversion/opposites – call it what you will but to me, it adds greater meaning to the above statement.

    So “A friend is just an enemy you don’t know yet”

    I don’t know what will happen and I don’t want to know too much until I watch it on TV but I think they basically told us everything we need to know in the first 2 minutes of the series.

    #47414
    Carrieanne @carrieanne

    @purofilion  I am so sorry you have to wait puro!  I’m in the US and I can watch this evening and I feel like that’s never going to get here.  Waiting until tomorrow while everyone else has seen it would be torture.  Don’t think I have anticipated an episode as much as this one since I started watching as they come out.  Remember I watched the rest on Netflix before Day of the Doctor.  I’m completely ruined now lol!   But it sure does amp up the anticipation.  My final prediction for Clara for this episode is not dying, I’ve gone back and forth and I just think it’s not this one for Clara, now all bets are off for the finale.

    #47415
    janetteB @janetteb

    I am firmly “on the fence”. I won’t even jokingly say that “Clara will either live or die” because knowing Moffat she will either do both or neither. In fact I suspect the “both or neither” is more likely than a straightforward, living or dying which is why I really can’t wait until tomorrow night. I am afraid that I will probably succumb to temptation and read Dan Martin’s blog over breaky tomorrow.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #47416
    lewis97 @lewis97

    Just wanted to post something I’ve been thinking about. We know that the Doctor somehow has to end up alone “trapped in a world unlike any other he has seen” in Heaven Sent, so rather than it being Clara’s departure we’re seeing in the trailer for Face the Raven as she says goodbye to the Doctor, could it instead be that they’re being separated as the Doctor must unavoidably go to this ‘world’ in Heaven Sent. Otherwise, featuring the scene in the trailer seems too much of a giveaway if this really was Clara’s end.

    Obviously, I’m sure this will bear some relevance as to Clara’s exit, but I think that will ultimately come in the series finale, with the fact that Peter Capaldi stated that it will be something which plays out over a few episodes.

    #47424
    Kharis @kharis

    @lewis97  Like this.  Makes sense as to why we would say goodbye to Clara.
    I feel everyone’s pain on waiting to see the episode.  We get it at 3:00 AM on Sunday.  :-\   I’m almost always asleep when it comes on.

    #47425
    lisa @lisa

    I have been wondering and if anyone can explain to me why that if Galifrey is
    time locked does that also mean that all of their Tardis are also time and space
    locked? I ask because TenDoc found a way to travel to Rose in an alternate
    universe 1 more time. So to my mind that would mean the TL’s are not
    bound by the time lock and that only the non- time lord Galifryans are.
    In which case for these upcoming episodes it shouldn’t be too much a problem
    for the Tardis to take the Doctor to Galifrey – right?

    I just want to thank everyone for all these great ideas! You are all so amazingly
    and massively clever!!

    I’m so ready to face the Raven people! So ready!!

    #47427
    ichabod @ichabod

    @bluesqueakpip post 47463 over at “Sleep no More” discussion, answer continued here:

    You asked, anent good hybrid warriors like Osgood, what *kind* of hybrid warrior are is the Doctor worried about?  Well, he’s worried about it, for one thing.  And, if the hybrid was made by the Time Lords (with or without the Doctor’s participation), I’d hazard a guess that it wouldn’t be a good one, only an effective one loyal to its originators and eager to follow their orders.  And if that’s what’s been “chasing” the Doctor in S9, according to general descriptions of the series before it even began (it’s their “Glory Days” but some pursuer is closing in on the Doctor), so much the worse.

    I am having spoilery thoughts here growing out of this plus some recently BBC-released hints . . . No.  This isn’t bonkers enough, it’s all too realistic.  I’ll take it away to doctorwhotv.com or Den of Geek.

     

    #47480
    lisa @lisa

    We still haven’t seen Clara in the waitress outfit at the Diner. Wonder if that’s
    a claricle? Cant imagine its Clara along her time line? How would that work?

    #47490
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @lisa: I am thinking the Doctor wants to see Clara in that diner because close by there is another equivalent of a time lock due to the events of The Impossible Astronaut through to The Wedding of River Song.  He knows Clara will be at that diner because she is there at every crucial moment of the earlier Doctors in order to stop The Great Intelligence.  Thus he will not be able to change history, so he is free to do something like maybe substitute a song in the jukebox for one he wrote to express his feelings for Clara.

    #47491
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    Because it is the Time Lords that helped cause Clara’s death, the ones the Doctor is really going to punish and get his revenge on are his own people, the Time Lords.  I speculate the Doctor is going to use the hybrid to erase them from history and make them only legends and myths.

    To return to my bonkers theory, I speculate the reason Gallifrey is lost is because the Doctor needed both the inputs of the Doctors and the inputs of the Dalek positions at the moment he phased out Gallifrey to calculate the dimension he sent Gallifrey to.  The hybrid will have dominion over the time lines of both Time Lords and Daleks.

     

    #47544
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    So over on the Raven thread it was mentioned that Clara was once again the Hanging Man card, and that it represents a sacrifice made to bring a gift of great value. My thinking is that the gift will be Gallifrey, and that the anger and despair that CapDoc must have inside him at the moment will be what gets him through Heaven Sent.

    #47549
    Carrieanne @carrieanne

    The sacrifice mentioned reminds me of The Woman who live when it required a death to open the portal.  Maybe the necklace Ashildr wears is part of the eyes of hades?  The time lords were frozen in a moment in a pocket universe, how would they escape that?  If Missy knows where Gallifrey is, whether she was truthful with the doctor in it’s coordinates is dubious at best, perhaps she is the one who wants to help open it.

    #47552
    Mersey @mersey

    If Ashild sent the Doctor to the Time Lords or had some kind of agreement with them the only mediator in this case could be Missy. So Ashildr had to meet her in the past as some people suggested after Tha Woman Who Lived and Missy has to be in contact with TL or she was sent by them to acomplish this mission.

    #47556
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @bendubz11

    I think you’re into something there with the Hanged Man/ Odin connection.

    A long, long time ago, when we first met Clara, there was a lot of internet spec about the meaning of her name. Oswald means “power of God” (Germanic).

    When Odin hung on Ygdrassil, the World Tree, for nine days and nights, he was seeking the power of the runes, a system of magic – a key, if you like. He sacrificed himself, to himself (according to the Norse poem, the Edda) in order to gain this knowledge. So, a part of him lived, and a part of him died.

    Perhaps Clara’s sacrifice to the chronos shade, is a key to time (i.e. a key to the lock on Gallifrey)…

    #47559
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @juniperfish I can’t take claim for the actual noticing of the Hanged Man, that has to go to Whisht (obviously not tagging because it’s on the spoiler thread). All I did was suggest that the reward for the sacrifice is Gallifrey, and it is Clara’s death that gives CapDoc the anger needed to face what i suspect is the Valeyard.

    #47561
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @lisa   The whole question of the timelock and the continuing inaccessibility of Gallifrey is confusing, to say the least, and it does raise some interesting questions.

    Insofar as I understand the situation – and I could be completely wrong – the time lock on Gallifrey and the Time War ceased to exist when the course of history was changed by the events recounted in Day of the Doctor: the moment was never used, the time lock was never put in place. The rest of the universe was unaware of this because as far as it was concerned, nothing appeared to have changed, and  Gallifrey remained inaccessible in the present and future because it had been removed. Exactly how it was removed was never explained very clearly:  the analogy was with a Gallifreyan form of  art which looked like a 3D painting but was actually a frozen moment in time, or, on a more mundane level, with something latent which could be reconstituted, like a cup-a-soup; but since the Time Lords were able to communicate with the rest of the universe (Time of the Doctor), they are clearly not in stasis, so perhaps they are in a bubble universe, or in a dimension one step removed from ours.  Even the Doctor seems unsure of the how and he certainly does not know the where.

    The fact that the time lock no longer exists, at least in relation to the universe after the Day of the Doctor,  means that the Tardis could take Clara back to Gallifrey-in-the past to encounter the Doctor as a child, and so presumably anything up to and including the time war is theoretically accessible. One might suppose, therefore, that any Time Lord with a Tardis from any time up to the events of the Time War could also, in theory, venture into their future and our present, so why is there no evidence of their having done so?  I can think of only two possible reasons:  a) the Time Lords are inhibited by the limitations which they placed on themselves with regard to meddling with past or future  or b) that from the perspective of anyone from Gallifrey-in-the-past, as for the War Doctor, the ninth Doctor and Tennant Doctor afterwards, it was as if  the events which changed history in Day of the Doctor never happened, the course of history was not diverted into a new channel, and so for them the time lock was/is still in place.

    I’m not sure that this makes sense entirely, but if there is any logic to it,  Bluesqueakpip might be able to work it out with a diagram.

    #47564
    lisa @lisa

    So we know from the synopsis of the next episodes that in some way the Time Lords are
    back in the story. I think the next episode will be the Doctor as warrior being
    tested against the Hybrid. I wonder if that might still have something to do with
    Clara still?
    @mudlark
    I do see what your getting at. My thought is that the time lock is maybe leaking?
    Sort of like a cup of soup could when it gets set down on top of a pointy pokey stick?

    #47566
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @lisa, what like in a similar way to how the rip in the universe was leaking in S4?

    #47572
    lisa @lisa

    @bendubz11

    Now that you mention it yes! The cracks in time from when the Tardis exploded.
    When Galifrey was moved there was also a very huge explosion.

    Also TenDoc traveled back and forth a few times to Pete’s World in those Cybermen
    episodes thru some sort of rift thing.

    Its sort of a old theme and I can imagine it as a possibility.

    #47573
    lisa @lisa

    http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-11-22/the-doctors-caught-on-cctv-in-first-image-from-doctor-who-two-part-finale

    Saw this and someone in the comments below said Death Zone. So I checked up on that to fix my memory

    http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Zone

    So maybe the Doctor was sent to the Death Zone to be pitted against the hybrid and that room that looks
    a bit like a Tardis control room might be Rassilon’s control room?

    #47598
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @lisa: I am thinking the Doctor is sent into some sort of virtual reality similar to the old classic Fourth Doctor serial The Deadly Assassin set within the Matrix.

    I used to think Clara would end up a teacher, maybe, but now there is another possibility.  The quantum shade I believe is some sort of container of souls in a form of hell, and quantum refers to something very hard to break.  But perhaps not impossible if one knows the key.

    So what if the Doctor is able to rescue Clara’s soul from the quantum shade, then where to put it?  He would try to end the possibility of dying with him again or be timey-wimey-ed out of existence, so he must go to a place that is somehow time-locked relative to him.  And where better to go than Utah where he was apparently killed by River Song, a place where he cannot under any circumstances further change history.  He knows one of the fragments of Clara will be there because of the Great Intelligence’s interference.  So what if his plan is not just to play a sad song he composed for Clara, I would guess on a jukebox, what if it is to give Clara’s soul to her fragment, to make that fragment whole, a new Clara to live out her life.

    #47599
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    Let’s try and speculate on another scene of Hell Bent, the scene maybe set in the 1940s – 1950s.

    In Victory of the Daleks, at the end isn’t there another crack in time / space?  I speculate this may be where the Doctor has the hybrid start the negotiations as to what would be the settlement of the Dalek – Time Lord conflict.

    #47600
    ichabod @ichabod

    So, SPOILER bonkerizing here . . . just to get it out of my system.  Mods, if it’s too specific etc., feel free to delete.

    The Doctor, I think, will crack up pretty badly in “Heaven Sent”, and part of that will be him revealing everything he put into the confession dial (some assorted dialog lines from the final three eps are up at Radio Times or BBC, and one line is “I confess that I know who the hybrid is; I confess that I know where it’s hiding; I confess that I’m afraid.”  I think he knows because he *is* the hybrid).  Maybe he can only find his way out of the castle by revealing these secrets, so that we’ll know what’s in the dial *without* the Doctor actually dying (only he could be lying, of course . . . ).  Maybe that’s why he’s trapped in the castle — the TLs are tormenting him (and helping him torment himself) to get the goods on him before dragging him home to Gallifrey for punishment, because he broke the rules of time when he defiantly resurrected Ashildr.  No idea how Ashildr got him to timelocked/not timelocked Gallifrey.

    Or, I think he will trace Ashildr’s contract back to the TLs and go there himself after he leaves the castle, to provide a “rain of terror” where it properly should go.  Either he trashes the place (keeping its children safe), or he submits after all to Clara’s orders, and chooses instead to remain a Doctor/healer.

    In any event, I think he must learn the lesson of this enormous loss: to accept what can’t be changed, and forgive the people involved (himself most of all) and get on with his life; to surrender any idea that he can *rule* Time, or worse yet, *over* rule Time, never mind that he says “I know when I can, I know when I can’t” when Clara demanded that he go get Danny back, in Dark Water.  He can’t, and he shouldn’t even when he “knows” that he can (and that he does know the difference may have been a lie too, to make Clara back off).  I think he goes to Karn to repair his emotional self (Ohila is listed in the cast of characters for “Hell Bent” in Wiki thing, as is Jenna Coleman, presumably in her waitress outfit).

    At some point I think he goes back to Lake Silence because he knows there’s a claricle there, and he just wants to see some version of Clara again.  Whatever he intends to do or say, it’s clearly useless as has no idea who he is or what he and Clara prime went through together.  So he leaves again and shuts the door on any further search for her in any form, for good.

    Maybe he’ll commit himself to only thinking about his Clara for five minutes every day . . .

     

    #47632
    Mirime @mirime

    Have searched the site for mentions of Edgar Allen Poe and only found a post by <span class=”useratname”>@cybercat</span>

    Lenore appears to be a variant of Eleanor, but a quick Google isn’t that helpful on meaning, although there may be a connection with ‘light’. Just wondering if anyone knows?

    #47670
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    I’ve already mentioned my ring narrative theory over on the Sleep thread (#47346), but it doesn’t have anything on Sleep or Raven actually in it so I think I need to try and revise it and improve it slightly:

    The series has 5 2-parters, and the turning point of the ring narrative in my opinion come midway through the 3rd one (the Ashildr/Me 2-parter). Thus, depending on whether you view Sleep and Raven as part of the narrative it’s either a 5/5 or 5/7 split. If you accept that split, then here is what the series looks like (Sleep and Raven in italics):

    Daleks – Clara is definitely the apprentice to both CapDoc and Missy, who teach her different things, CapDoc and Missy make sure she is never alone. Discovery of Skaro.
    Lake/Flood – Clara wants to be more like The Doctor, CapDoc doesn’t like how adventurous she’s become, Clara is forced to step up and be the magician for a little bit due to the lack of CapDoc, CapDoc is in a pod
    Girl – Clara steps up and is the magician of her own accord, tries to convince The Doctor to stay
    ——————————————————————–
    Woman – No Clara, just CapDoc being the sole magician, though Ashildr/Me has grown to be similar to a magician by her own.
    Zygons – Clara is brought back by The Doctor after 127 missed calls (shows Clara doesn’t need him to teach her anymore), Clara spends most of the time in a pod, thus CapDoc is left having to find another apprentice in the shape of Osgood.
    Sleep – Reverts to CapDoc as sole leader. However, he is not the Magician as he does not fully understand the story, and as a result The Doctor loses.
    Raven – Clara is in the role of the Magician, not CapDoc, but is more an amalgamation of what she’s learnt from Missy and CapDoc, and like CapDoc in Sleep does not understand the story properly, loses, and dies as a consequence.
    Heaven/Hell – No Clara, CapDoc left without an apprentice or anyone to make an apprentice. Discovery of Gallifrey.

    Now obviously there are many themes evident, but I think they can be summed up surprisingly.

    Clara’s arc – strictly linear in regards to this series. She starts of as CapDoc’s apprentice, goes off for a little spell where Missy teaches her that hiding your plans helps you win, then is forced to take over from CapDoc in BTF. following on from that she is immediately forced into a situation where she is without CapDoc, and chooses to be the Magician. Capdoc sees the possible implications this could have and leaves her on Earth hoping she will forget how to be the Magician. As soon as he think’s she’s in danger, CapDoc tries to call Clara though, to keep her safe. The point that ultimately causes Clara’s death is in Inversion, when it becomes clear CapDoc has tricked Bonnie. Clara interprets this as confirmation of Missy’s teaching. she also ignores CapDoc losing in Sleep, which means that when given her own companion, she is confident that so long as she follows everything she’s learnt she will win. But by learning incorrectly that hiding your plan works, she sentenced herself to death. And it was in acceptance that she truly became The Doctor.

    Time War arc – quite possibly the most important arc of the series, highlighted most by the appearance of Skaro at the start and Gallifrey at the end. This would suggest a proper, uncomplicated ring narrative, but I think it’s more complex than that. It’s more like a linear thread with a single ring to link it all together. If we view this as a 9 episode mini series (no UTL, BTF or Sleep), with a linear storyline it may be easier to understand. In Apprentice we find Skaro and in Familiar we get the prophecy of a hybrid. Plus there is the appearance of Missy, who could quite easily be an agent for the TLs. The next episodes in this miniseries are the Ashildr ones, which show CapDoc creating a hybrid of two warrior races in the Mire and Humans. Then he turns them into an adversary of his. now I think this is a red herring, but it still seems very important because it is Ashildr who brings about the climax of the arc. Next we get the Zygon episodes. Refugees created by the Time War, and CapDoc showing how much he regrets his actions in the Time War by choosing to show forgiveness. Raven is what moves the story on, Ashildr sending CapDoc away using what looks very much like Missy’s teleport bracelet. We know that once CapDoc gets past whatever it is in the place he’s gone Gallifrey is the prize, and it is likely that Clara’s death will have severe consequences for somebody. In short this arc is a linear arc, disguised as a ring narrative.

    CapDoc arc – Now this is very interesting. like the Time War arc there is a link at the start and the end (CapDoc ends up alone and starts alone) and it doesn’t look like a true ring narrative. but at the same time it doesn’t look linear. It’s more like a loop than anything, with an exit at the end, but I’m unsure exactly where it loops back on itself. There are a couple of mini loops and bootstrap paradoxes created, namely the creation of Davros and the one formed in BTF. But I also think the confession dial will be one, and for some reason I get the feeling they might not be the only ones.

    In retrospect, my initial thought that this series is a ring narrative now seems to be incorrect. There are bits that link the start of the series to the end, but ultimately it isn’t one. Rather it is 2 linear narratives with a 3rd that may very well be a loop narrative.

    #47677
    lisa @lisa
    #47690
    Kharis @kharis

    SO, WHERE IS THE DINER SCENE?

    #47694
    ichabod @ichabod

    @lisa  Thanks for the pics — this is the only site I’ve seen that lets you blow them up for a good look.

    @kharis  I think the diner scene is a scene of acceptance, letting go, and release, which would put it not in “Heaven Sent” but in the final episode, “Hell Bent”.

    #47696
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    IMDb’s page on Hell Bent has some interesting claims.  I do not know how carefully they are verified.  Here are some actors who will appear:

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4701544/

    Note one of them is from Face the Raven.   As it turns out, this actor seems quite accomplished both theater and elsewhere, also has worked previously on Moffat’s Sherlock.

    The last claim on this page under “Spoilers” is very big, but confirms what seems to have been obvious from other released pictures.  I speculate this character may be acting as a messenger or a delivery person.

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4701544/trivia?ref_=tt_trv_trv

     

     

    #47716
    Anonymous @

    Shh! Spoilers!

    The Doctor and River Song Reunite For A Spectacular Christmas http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/doctorwho/entries/32369834-a751-4dca-8829-b1a9ec3fb1cb

     

    According to Doctor Who Online, here’s the episodes synopsis:

    “It’s Christmas Day on a remote human colony and the Doctor is hiding from Christmas Carols and Comedy Antlers.

    But when a crashed spaceship calls upon the Doctor for help, he finds himself recruited into River Song’s squad and hurled into a fast and frantic chase across the galaxy.

    King Hydroflax (Greg Davies) is furious, and his giant Robot bodyguard is out-of-control and coming for them all!

    Will Nardole (Matt Lucas) survive? And when will River Song work out who the Doctor is?

    All will be revealed on a starliner full of galactic super-villains and a destination the Doctor has been avoiding for a very long time.”

    #47728
    Frobisher @frobisher

    @whisht

    And from Face the Raven, off to Spoilers I go! <snip>

    ooohhh – I have no idea if the episodes are in the ‘wrong’ order but like the idea (unreliable narrators and all that!!).

    If we really are seeing a journey based on the Tarot, perhaps we should re-order the episodes based on the ‘traditional’ order of the Tarot?

    Now, the only problem with that is:
    a) we disagree as to which episode relates to which card*;
    b) Moffat may have done a reading and had the series proceed in the same order as the reading (btw I think PK Dick used the I Ching when writing The Man in the High Castle);
    c) we might be wrong and Moffat might say “Tarot?? Wha?”

    *By the way, we might not only disagree about which episode relates to which card, but we may also have got the wrong Fool.
    We all thought that the Madman (in a box) was the Fool.
    But perhaps it was Clara (not a “pet” after all). If its her journey we’re seeing, then that might explain why we keep seeing her relationship to the Card (eg her relationship to the Magician; Hanged Man; person who must choose when shown the Wheel of Fortune) etc….

    Like that idea. We haven’t had The Lovers card yet, have we? Clara and Danny reunited somehow (maybe in the Time Lord tech Nethersphere)? Being together with a loved one but being out of reach of the Doctor is very much an AG companion exit trope.

    #47730
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    Right, I think @fatmaninabox is on to something over on the Raven thread (post #47719), so I thought I might as well try and fit that into CapDoc’s arc. I think that now you’ve brought up the retconning, it could turn out to be key.

    Episodes we know have to be in order:
    Raven/Heaven/Hell
    Apprentice/Familiar
    Lake/Flood
    Invasion/Inversion

    That leaves any change over from future CapDoc to present CapDoc in the spaces. Logic would suggest that Apprentice has to be after Raven in his timeline, since the confession dial looks in perfect condition in Raven, but has a chunk out of it Apprentice, and I don’t see any episode that could slot in between them, so lets link those 5 episodes together.
    Logic would also suggest the changeover has to happen at a time when Clara isn’t there. Yes we don’t know what happens between episodes, but since it’s a major plot point in this theory you’d expect the change over to happen on screen. That rules out a few more options.
    This would make the arc, starting at Raven, look like this:
    Raven/Heaven/Hell/Apprentice/Familiar/Lake/Flood/Girl
    Woman
    Invasion/Inversion/Sleep.

    That’s only two places left: before and after Woman. Now, in Raven there was the mentioning of a me surveillance room. Very Importantly, not an Ashildr surveillance room, a Me surveillance room. The only other episode in which she is referred to as Me is Woman, and we don’t have Clara in it, making CapDoc the only source, and probably meaning it is probably current CapDoc.
    Therefore, I theorize that CapDoc’s arc runs from Woman to Girl. This fits in nicely, as it allows for the retconning removing his memory of Ashildr, hence the faint recognition, and  it allows for the gradual destruction of the retcon through the episode. In resurrecting her he knows he is sentencing Clara to death, yet he still does it showing acceptance, as does the refusal to meddle with time and give Clara the missing Immortality chip. What’s more, by having the face reveal at the end of his arc, it makes it more poignant and gives it the meaning that I feel many thought it lacked. It is him remembering why he is The Doctor – he saves people, even if they’ve hurt him so badly he can hardly take it.

    #47732
    nerys @nerys

    @bendubz

    The only other episode in which she is referred to as Me is Woman, and we don’t have Clara in it, making CapDoc the only source, and probably meaning it is probably current CapDoc.

    Except that Clara does appear at the end of this episode, correct? So are you saying that ending is really linked to an entirely different time frame, not in the immediate aftermath of “The Woman Who Lived”?

    OK, so I got a bit confused by the comments at the end of your post. Are you saying this is the order you think the Doctor is experiencing events?

    The Woman Who LIved
    Face the Raven
    Heaven Sent
    Hell Bent
    The Magician’s Apprentice
    The Witch’s Familiar
    Under the Lake
    Before the Flood
    The Girl Who Died
    The Zygon Invasion
    The Zygon Inversion
    Sleep No More
    The Girl Who Died

    #47733
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @nerys oh no it is, but she wasn’t there with Me at anytime, CapDoc had already left her and as far as I remember he doesn’t mention her change of title in that snippet at the end, it’s really just a conclusion to show he hasn’t completely abandoned Clara. Or at least that’s what it and the reference to the trip are to me anyway.

    #47734
    nerys @nerys

    Oops, sorry, I got “The Girl Who Died” in there twice. I meant to have it there at the end only (if I interpret your timeline correctly, @bendubz11).

    #47735
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @nerys the order I’m saying The Doctor experiences events is:

    Woman Who Lived
    Zygon Invasion
    Zygon Inversion
    Sleep No More (it’s where this fits I’m still unsure of because of “the worst month of his life”, it might very well be before Invasion)
    Face The Raven
    Heaven Sent
    Hell Bent
    Magicians Apprentice
    Witchs Familiar
    Under The Lake
    Before The Flood
    Girl Who Died

    #47736
    Frobisher @frobisher

    @bendubz11, I think you are getting somewhere with this theory.

    Does anyone know what the Doctor and Clara were wearing at the end of The Woman Who Lived, and if that corresponds with their clothing at the start of any other episode (e.g. Sleep No More)? The Doctor’s hair length may also be a clue – it noticeably fluctuates.

    #47737
    nerys @nerys

    Thanks, @bendubz11. For folks like myself who rely heavily on visuals to process information, it really helps to have the order you’re proposing laid out! I may just watch the episodes in that order (minus the ones that haven’t aired yet) to see if it makes sense. Like you, I think “Sleep No More” might actually slot in before the “Invasion” episode.

    #47738
    Anonymous @

    @frobisher @bendubz11 @nerys

    The Topic Dalek has asked me to remind you that theories don’t need to be posted on the Spoilers thread unless the theory is based on information gleaned from a spoiler.

    As this theory doesn’t contain any spoilers, these posts should go on the Face The Raven thread. As the posts can’t be moved, I’ll re-post them on the correct thread on your behalf.

    Until I’ve completed the ‘move’ and so that ‘continuity’ can be maintained, please can you refrain from posting anything related to this particular theory on either this thread or Face The Raven.

    Thanks you 🙂

    #47748
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    My bad! Will do @fatmaninabox, and thanks for posting them on my behalf!

    #47749
    Anonymous @

    @bendubz11

    No probs. You owe me a mug of coffee.

    Actually, make that a jug of coffee 🙂

    #47751
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @fatmaninabox I don’t have any coffee, will tea do?

    #47758
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Since it seems increasingly likely the the Timelords are returning (but no announcement yet, hence this post on the Spoilers page), I was wondering what they will be like when they re-appear, and what the relationship between the Doctor and the Timelords will be.

    Will they be grateful to the Doctor for saving them by hiding them in a pocket universe and feel that they are in his debt? Will they think that the Doctor is now in their debt, since they gave him a new set of regenerations? Will they be devious and self-serving with their own dark agenda to capture the Doctor (assuming they are the “they” that Mayor-Me referred to)? Will they be barking mad as a result of the Time War?

    And was Missy just yanking the doctor’s chain when she claimed to give him the co-ordinates of Gallifrey? Or not? In fact, could her appearance last series (complete with attendant Timelord technology) imply some sort of pact with the Timelords?

    So many questions, so little wine.

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