24 June 2017 at 00:15 #59513
I think I speak for everyone when I say that I genuinely want to be shocked to the point I clap at the genius while tossing my Apple TV out the front door. Missy is the Master, no surprise. Missy in the vault, no surprise.
I want we Whovians to literally drop jaw at what happens next. We deserve it.24 June 2017 at 01:19 #59514
I didnt see or read about that interview. I’ll have to think on how that changes the way I think.
That said, I would find it quite weird to have a new Doctor in the Christmas special and have Capaldi walking around too. That wouldnt fit my definition of a different regeneration either.
Personally, I suspect the regeneration started when Bill shot him [I dont have an explanation of how that might work though] and that the death of Missy and Bill over the next two episodes (and Missy returning to be a Master instead of being redeemed is a sort of death) will result in the Doctor questioning his reasons to continue living (as the Simm Master did) and denying the regeneration from completeing. Thus Peter is in the Christmas story, as the new doctor, but with the same face as the previous one (Tennant Doctor did it after all).
The Christmas story is then about redeeming the Doctor, convincing him that he should carry on in It’s a wonderful life style Christmas story (@missrori) at the end of which he regenerates. I think (wishful thinking probably) that he’ll regenerate into either Bill or Missy as both you and @blenkinsopthebrave suggest.
I have absolutely no track record getting anything right of course…24 June 2017 at 01:23 #5951524 June 2017 at 03:25 #59516
I would love to see the zero room again too.24 June 2017 at 03:25 #59517winston @winston
Just one more sleep (as the grandaughter says) and some of our questions may be answered, while many more new ones will probably crop up. Being an old softie ,I really would like to see a “happy ending” for everyone. Bill goes off to live a long life with Heather, Nardole leaves with a full oil can to have whatever wierd adventures he has, Missy beats up the mean old Master and the Doctor has a good regeneration happy in himself and proud of the time he was “The Doctor”. But I am also an old fool and none of that good stuff will happen. Too bad cause I really like happy endings.24 June 2017 at 03:38 #59518CountScarlioni @countscarlioni
@missrori Time dilation. Yeah, he ain’t fibbing this time — it’s vital to the plot
Right, thanks! I’ve now caught-up with clips and trailers. In the DWM interview, SM says his (still at school) son did the calculations on the time dilation, but the son later thought he’d got his sums wrong. Artistic license will be in play!
On the question a bit upthread, will PC be in the Christmas Special? In an interview last week, the costume designer swore he has done no work on the costume for the new Doctor. Given the production schedule, I take that to mean that as there can’t be a Christmas Special without the Doctor, PC must the one.24 June 2017 at 04:02 #59519
I’m with you. Whatever happens, I hope that, particularly for Bill, there is a happy ending which entails Heather…without the Pope bursting in.
Mind you, this coming episode does sound a bit fraught. But like you, I want to say goodbye to the Moffat years with a real upbeat feeling.
Hmm…I just read over that, and it does sound a bit wet.
OK, I want an ending with death on the stage of Shakespearean proportions.
Hmm…now that I look at that last sentence, I wonder.
Perhaps I want an ending more like Shakespeare and less like John Webster…24 June 2017 at 05:08 #59520
@blenkinsopthebrave A bit fraught! From the spoilers I’ve seen, it’s a lot fraught!
But perhaps it’s all Moffat’s plan to pull a miracle of miracles in “The Doctor Falls” by bringing things to the blackest point. Just when it seems there can’t possibly be a happy ending for anyone but the baddies, a glorious ending takes place.
But I think @winston that whatever happens between now and the Christmas show, the Twelfth Doctor will have his good regeneration. He’s going to go out a fighter, proving himself virtuous in extremis. And as thane15 would remind me 😉 he has many things to be proud of even for all those he couldn’t save, all those failures and disappointments. Consider…
- He helped save Gallifrey!
- He saved Earth from the Cybermen by giving Danny Pink a chance to make a noble sacrifice
- He was strong enough to let Clara decide the fate of the moon creature.
- He taught Davros and the Daleks mercy.
- He saved Ashildr’s people and her life.
- He stopped the human-Zygon war.
- He survived the confession dial without giving in.
- He banished Rassilon from Gallifrey.
- He spared the universe destruction at his hand when he owed it nothing and they owed him everything.
- He let Clara have her memories and gave her wiggle room.
- He truly loved River Song and made sure she would live on in the Library.
- He spared Missy’s life and did everything in his power to bring her to the side of right. Just because the bad guys get in the way in this finale (and that really does seem to be the situation here) doesn’t mean he isn’t doing what is right.
- He saved Bill as many times as he could and gave her a richer life than she ever could have had on her own, even if it turns out to end in sorrow — again, only because the bad guys had to butt in and spoil his noble intentions for Missy. The point is he tried.
- He saved/helped save Earth from the Half-Face Man, the Sheriff of Nottingham, the Skovox Blitzer, the Fisher King, the Mire, the Leonians, the Sandmen (apparently), the Monks, the Eaters of Light…
As I noted, perhaps the Christmas special will reveal what would have happened if he hadn’t taken risks, hadn’t been brave, hadn’t acted virtuously as often as he could. I think Clara and Bill’s lives would have been much poorer for never knowing Twelve. Yes, it’s dangerous to travel with the Doctor, but to live in itself is dangerous, is it not?24 June 2017 at 05:11 #59521
Also, Moffat and Capaldi have insisted time and again that Twelve is the focus of the Christmas special. It’s very clear that this finale two-parter is going to lead directly into the regeneration adventure, so it’s likely he’ll sustain the fatal wounds by the end of it. But then he’ll get his own wiggle room for a little while, and “instead of a story of the Doctor falling” (as Moffat put it), we’ll have a story about redemption and hope so he can have a glorious death.24 June 2017 at 07:20 #59522Wellicanbake @wellicanbake
Perhaps there is no costume work because the new doctor will wearing PC clothes the whole time.
Also maybe the new regeneration will be a long period of flux switching from PC to new doctor and back throughout the episode.24 June 2017 at 08:00 #59523
I don’t see that working too well, @wellicanbake, though it would be unusual. It doesn’t allow us to really get to know 13, or give 12 closure. I think it should focus on Twelve getting his just reward — one he never expected or fought for — after all his sacrifices in the finale, especially as there probably won’t be a companion to be at his side. He worked so hard to be a good man…against the crushing tide of evil….even tried to even redeem Missy!
He’s the noblest Doctor of all, in a way. He lived not just to save the innocent but, in the end, redeem the wicked…a rather Christian attitude, I think.
I also think that the Masters and Cybermen underestimate the power of how much Bill and the Doctor love each other. Even Cyber-conversion can’t take that away from them, and they’ll fight together to the end. They beat the Monks, after all.24 June 2017 at 13:27 #59534Devilishrobby @devilishrobby
At this point I wil be disappointed with Moffat if Bill is killed although this appears to be what is going to happen as in my own opinion this would essentially be a rehash of last seasons ending with the Doctor again trying to find some loophole with which to save Bill. As to the possibility of Missy returning to her evil ways or even dying trying to do good we will have to see as in my opinion these would be the more interesting reasons for the Doctor falling. In fact with the situation with Bill almost being a carbon copy of last year I am wondering if Capaldi was originally planning on leaving the show last year and was persuaded to stay24 June 2017 at 14:43 #59537
@devilishrobby I agree that Bill’s potential fate — being killed, with the Doctor helpless to save her for reasons beyond his control — seems a lot like Clara’s grand finale. However, while his first priority will, or can be, finding a way to save her, once the Cybermen and Masters make their moves he’ll have to put her fate on the back burner; in “Heaven Sent” and “Hell Bent” he really didn’t have reason to care about what the Time Lords wanted — which was just information he may not have actually had — and so he turned that to his advantage by tricking them into extracting Clara. He will have to care about saving the universe from a bevy of baddies, and then figure out if anything’s to be done for poor CyberBill if she makes it out of the crisis. And remember, we have to work through Missy’s arc in all this too. It’s strange that what looks like a far more eventful, complex storyline is unfolding over just two episodes (not counting Christmas, which looks to be Doctor-only and probably involves a different crisis) of 45 minutes and 60 minutes, than the much simpler endgame of Series 9 did over three episodes, two of which were extra-length.
And that’s another thing — Bill being turned into a Cyberman in a sinister facility, and the Master turning out to have a hand in things, is pretty much “Dark Water”/”Death in Heaven” rehashed. I’m surprised Moffat wants to recycle so much of both of the previous Capaldi-era finales at once like this, even more so that apparently no one was worried about how this would look.
The only way to pull this off is to find a fresh direction to take Bill’s fate in. She can’t die in a heroic sacrifice ala Danny Pink. The Doctor can’t risk everything just to save her ala Clara Oswald. And, well, she can’t just go back to dishing up chips as a Cyberman. So the solutions would seem to be either:
1) The Doctor and/or Missy finds a way to reverse everything ala “Last of the Time Lords” or “The Big Bang”. I have a friend who believes Moffat will — somehow — get an Everybody Lives! story out of this plot, so Twelve can get one happy season finale. But she doesn’t know the spoilers we do. 😉
2) The Heather Creature will return and liberate her, finally tying off the loose ends of “The Pilot”. It’s not just that the Doctor suggested they might find her again — why was a spaceship at St. Luke’s in the first place? Were Saxon and/or the Cybermen scouting the place out?
In addition, I suspect that the Heather/Bill relationship will be set up as the bittersweetly happy parallel to the final tragedy of the Doctor/Missy relationship. Heather wants Bill to be a passenger to see the universe, and the Doctor wants that for Missy. While Bill will probably rise to her best nature and be rewarded with a happy reunion and ascension into another plane of existence — a death that would only be metaphorical — Missy will have to pay for succumbing to her basest instincts once Saxon enters the picture. She’ll manage to redeem herself before the very end, probably by saving the Doctor’s life (or at least ensuring he can regenerate), but it will have to be at the (apparent, this being the Master) cost of her own life. Of course, this means the Doctor will be bereft of both the women he taught, only able to take comfort in knowing that both of them learned his lessons well. Does that make sense?24 June 2017 at 18:28 #59538
Okay — this is kind of odd to post under spoilers, but looking at some Michelle Gomez interviews at io9 I was reminded of this promo video that was posted by the Beeb during the Series 10 shoot.
Why is she only painting half of a TARDIS? And where is this location? I suspect this is a clue to the shenanigans in either this or (more likely) next week’s episode. The giant colony ship has city and forest landscapes within it, after all. But why is her hair and her dress the same she had as at her execution? The rockwork doesn’t look like that of the tower where she was imprisoned. And even if she’s enjoying being evil again, I doubt she’ll have time to have a wash and get dressed up all purty.
Elsewhere in the woods, there is this video that promoted the Red Nose Day contest to have breakfast with the Doctors.
Why does the Doctor have a cut on his forehead?
Questions questions, and the clues there all along… 😉24 June 2017 at 20:11 #5954324 June 2017 at 21:15 #59554
Now my bonkerizing makes mt think Bill is going to let herself go to save a cyberman.
We can get the Danny Pink thing cleaned up right here Moffat.25 June 2017 at 00:09 #5957525 June 2017 at 00:51 #59579Anonymous @
I did indeed! And I appreciate the shout-out. I’m glad you’re seeing that the Doctor has not only achieved so much but has been loved by the peoples of the universe. Hurrah! 3 cheers for the Doctor! He’s had a lot of happiness -I remember, way back in a Moffat written episode that the Doctor said to himself: “please give me this. Please!” and he was: “everybody lives!!” (Eccleston’s Doctor).
I think there have been many ‘saves’, rescues and losses which is the point of this ‘trial’ of a timelord which goes aaaaalllll the way back to the beginning when Hartnell hopped on the screen and then said, as he was leaving, this fantastic dialogue which reminded me of how Moffat took this concept and moulded it into this beautifully written and nuanced show highlighting the complex relationships that’ve always existed in our world and need even more attention now:
“your future lies with David [others] and not with a silly old buffer like me. One day I shall come back. Yes, I shall come back. Until then there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.”
That last phrase has always been a kicker to me: at the age of 7 (when I heard it myself for the first time) I realised that words, balanced and beautifully rendered, were as musical and elegant as any classical musical theme.
Kindest, Puro and Thane.25 June 2017 at 01:59 #59587
@thane15 Yes, and things will be okay for him and Bill. He loves her. She loves him, and they’re together again! Great thing! Greatest of all they can be together forever now!25 June 2017 at 03:06 #59592
WELL DAMN!!! In no way did that fall flat !
Why didn’t Missy remember and just a ton of other questions
Made the rest of this season feel very underwhelming for me
GEESH! What a cracker!!25 June 2017 at 03:14 #59593quaentum @quaentum
In watching the Dr falls trailer, they refer to it as the series end25 June 2017 at 04:18 #59600geoffers @geoffers
well, yes, series “finale,” and it is. the last episode of series 10, the end of series 10…
they say series finale at the end of each series.
are you suggesting (or worried) they’re saying it’s the last series, ever? cause it’s not, thank goodness! 🙂25 June 2017 at 10:16 #59618
Over at Tumblr where I have a Whovian poetry blog, I have been trying to comfort panicked fans of Twelve and Bill over what’s to come, bless their hearts.
Mostly the sorrow is over Bill’s “death”, which of course is not death at all.
But one of them was especially heartbroken over that “cold” opening, saying it’s horrible that Twelve will have to die alone and in anguish. She doesn’t feel it’s a worthy sendoff for the Doctor or Capaldi, especially after all the criticism he’s received in the less reputable corners of the Internet and press. Bless her heart, but I reminded her that “The Doctor Falls” leads into the Christmas special, and how this may not be the end of the story….in fact, I read that the scene in question was shot just 2 weeks ago. This might be why it was left off of early preview copies of the episode (and why 12’s hair is so floofy).
This is going to be a tough week to wait on hope, isn’t it? 😉25 June 2017 at 12:09 #59619quaentum @quaentum
Yes there is concern it is ending although I doubt the doctor would die but rather the last scene cutting to back in mid regeneration, keeping it open for some future rebirth of the series.25 June 2017 at 12:17 #59620
It’s just panic from folks who don’t follow news and spoilers as well as we, methinks. Series 11 is on for next year with the as-yet-unannounced 13th Doctor.25 June 2017 at 13:29 #59621
That because it is using British terminology (being a British show ). Series = US season. Series finale = US season finale.25 June 2017 at 17:27 #59646
One explanation for the advanced Cybermen’s presence on the ship, could be continued design improvements continuing on the lowest level, whilst the Doctor/Missy/Master and Mondasian survivors (with Bill ???) move towards the upper levels and the Tardis on Deck 1.
Since I’m not convinced that I understand how the Mondasian population on the lowest deck got there yet, I think its possible that we’ve only scratched the surface of a more complex Cyberman (?) or even Cyberman/Master plot ?25 June 2017 at 17:40 #59648
I suggest that the Doctor’s most significant vow to himself, is to keep his traveling friends (per Bill) safe no matter what. With Adric he was convinced that there was nothing he could do (strangely that was with Cybermen too). He thought the same about the Time War and his destruction of the Time Lords and Daleks.
However, the 50th anniversary showed that with clever thinking (and help from himself) there might just be a way round the problem of changing the past.
If the regen scene outside the Tardis is in Antartica, then has Moff given himself a “Save Bill” plot for a multi-doctor story for the Christmas special ?25 June 2017 at 18:05 #59651
@nick That’s an interesting point, and I can see a multi-Doctor story about saving a companion…except when Twelve tried to save Clara in “Hell Bent” he was treated as a baddie. Why would it be okay to try and change Bill’s fate but not Clara’s? If it’s just regeneration energy needed, Twelve can go solo. If he needs other Doctors why didn’t he call on them in “Hell Bent”?
Perhaps he could ask Ohila for some elixir for Bill? They never mended that burnt bridge, and if Missy’s redemption doesn’t take, Ohila could become his new friend in immortality…25 June 2017 at 18:23 #59653
Ah. that’s a difficult one. I didn’t like the saving Clara element last year, because I saw the fact hat Clara was dead already, when he arranged for her to be taken out of her timeline, to be a line that (for me) the Doctor wouldn’t cross. The Dead cannot be saved this way. Living Death, however amenable, is insufficient justification. Saving her just before her death, would have made a vast difference to me. I’m aware that I’m treading a fine line in hypocrisy here and a rather minority point of view.
So far Bill isnt dead and as the final scene hinted, she’s alive in there, but not in control of herself. Saving Bill from being Cyber-converted by changing the past or in some other way, remains a morally valid action for the Doctor at the moment. This might not be the case after next week’s episode. For me this is the important difference between the potential Bill story line and the Clara one. I know I’m balancing on a pin head here, but that’s what I think 🙂 .
Of course, there is a much bigger moral question. Is it morally right to destroy any Cyberman (except as a last resort in self defence ?).25 June 2017 at 18:50 #59656
@nick Interesting points. But how could the Doctor have saved Clara just before she died? It seems like splitting hairs — he saved her right before her last heartbeat. Isn’t that the same thing?
Also, while he might be able to change the past for Bill, shouldn’t he be worried about all the other people the Mondasians are preparing to convert, along with the Cyber-armies, first? (Hmm). I think he’ll need to fix Bill at the top of part 2, with love power and the sonic perhaps. 🙂 And what if this is a fixed point for him and the Masters?
or the more offbeat idea I had — don’t “fix” her by restoring her humanity, especially if the heart, etc. aren’t replacable, but help her become happy and strong in her new form. Another form of mind over matter, and they can keep having adventures together. She’s a superhero! 😀25 June 2017 at 19:13 #5966125 June 2017 at 19:14 #59662
I said I was balancing on a pin head and suffering from hypocrisy 🙂 In the story that Moff wanted to tell for the finale last year, then there was no way that the Doctor could save her. If Moff wanted to tell a different story, then he could have invented TL tech that destroyed the quantum shade at that last moment, so that she continued to have a heart beat.
Musing on that point. Is there a difference between Bill, who continues to live with an artificial heart/lungs and Clara who lives without a heart beat at all ?
For me there is. Using medical tech to keep someone who would have died alive is perfectly normal for us today (although it not accepted by all religious beliefs). Clara isnt biologically alive nor is she an android like Nardole. As I said, the difference is pin head sized.
By the way, it is completely possible that Bill never died after she’s shot. We know the Brain continues to function, after the heart stops, for several minutes, even 10s of minutes in the right environment.25 June 2017 at 19:34 #59663
Not clicked the link, but it is The Express so can be almost entirely disregarded.25 June 2017 at 19:53 #59664
Well maybe you should click the link – maybe they are referring to another link
You know what they say about assuming25 June 2017 at 20:45 #59667
Then link to the original link (which is always good practice anyway, rather than let a 3rd party harvest clicks), because the Express is worthless.25 June 2017 at 22:37 #59673
Well we both know this is your personal judgement call because of your politics
AND I don’t need to defend myself on how I share a link – but I will give it my
best effort to ignore your ridiculousness26 June 2017 at 00:38 #59687
If you watch the full trailer, posted by @wolfweed at #59543, the first words: “We’re not going to get out of this one, are we?” seem to be spoken by Bill, and not by a Cyberman Bill. The final words are spoken by the Doctor: “Stand with me. It’s all I’ve ever wanted…” as Missy looks into his eyes.
It seems to hint that Bill will be de-cybermanized and that if anyone dies who the Doctor would “gift” his new appearance to, it is Missy.
Well, I hope so, on both counts, anyway.26 June 2017 at 00:52 #59689
You could well be right. As I said on the episode thread, I strongly suspect that Bill will be decyberised (we seem to have coined a new word tonight). And I’d be more than happy with a Michelle Gomez Doc — but I suspect the fact that she’s already played Missy will stand against her as ‘too confusing’ for the casual viewer. More than happy to be wrong on that one though.
As to the line spoken by Bill. Yeah, that does suggest that we get her back but it could be a flashback, say. And even if we get Bill ‘back’, it doesn’t automatically mean that she’s going to survive, especially as the line is such a hopeless one. I would expect that even if she dies, she would get some kind of farewell scene with the Doctor, even if cyberised. (Danny Pink did.)
And, of course, while that might be Pearl’s voice, who’s to say she’s still playing Bill at that point?26 June 2017 at 20:05 #59733Devilishrobby @devilishrobby
Ahhh @nerys in response to your post on WE&T if rumours are true it could be 3 Doctors and 2 Masters26 June 2017 at 20:55 #59737
@jimthefish But who else could Pearl be playing at this point? The credits list in Radio Times list her as playing Bill, and I can’t imagine working in a flashback at this point….26 June 2017 at 22:38 #59739
@missrori– I don’t find the flashback theory that outlandish to be honest. After all, Bill was seeing the Doctor via that telepathic link he set up. Who’s to say that doesn’t work both way? Maybe there will be some part of Bill that will still be able to communicate with him, despite her being physically Cyberised.
On the other hand, she could even be the Doctor by that point….27 June 2017 at 17:49 #59790hairlesspet @hairlesspet
I certainly hope Bill doesn’t get de-cybermanized, not because I think it’s a fitting end for the character, but because it would gut the emotional aspect of the whole episode. Yes, there’s the possibility this might be her voice in a flashback, but there’s the other possibility this is the Doctor speaking with her in his “mind construct” a la Clara in Heaven Sent.
I do think they’ll find a way to give Pearl the opportunity to travel with the entity from The Pilot, a creature who may have the powers to cure her in a sense – but scrape away the veneer and it would almost be a carbon copy of Clara’s end.
We’ll see…27 June 2017 at 18:09 #59793
Big Xmas ep spoiler/ruiner photo now doing the rounds on twitter.
1. Go & hide in a cave for 6 months.
2. Go & find it. It’s easy.27 June 2017 at 18:22 #59794
Don’t know if anyone’s said this…
Perhaps rather than the Doctor regenerating into P Mack to honour her, perhaps it will be Missy who does so?27 June 2017 at 18:41 #59796OtakuY @otakuy
Question- If I was to watch one TV serial for each version of the Doctor from 1-7, what would they be and why?27 June 2017 at 20:08 #59801
(great name, btw!)
Yes, I can see your point. I suppose part of my assumption is based on the interviews with Pearl Mackie and SM, where they come across as well, simultaneously coy and knowing.
As you say, we’ll see.27 June 2017 at 21:33 #59803
Now spoilered with an Xmas ep location set. Here’s a cryptic clue.
If people want to know, maybe PM me. These are naughty leaks!27 June 2017 at 22:28 #59805
That’s very cryptic indeed. Are we talking about the location snaps?27 June 2017 at 22:38 #59806
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