28 January 2020 at 13:47 #69440
Just read an interview with Chibnall who apparently confirmed that this is, indeed, the Doctor: “There’s no sort of parallel universe going on. There’s no tricks”.
I say apparently, as the interview was in The Mirror.
I admit, that threw me for a loop (both the quote and the fact that I was reading the Mirror)…
More thinking required.28 January 2020 at 14:43 #69445
Will now go and check the Mirror. The things we do for Doctor Who, eh?
But as I’ve been arguing over in the spoiler-free forums, there isn’t any evidence for an alternate universe. Generally speaking, if it were an alternate Doctor, I’d expect there to have been stuff planted by now.28 January 2020 at 14:48 #69446
Yes, it’s in The Sun as well (bleurrgh … good thing lunch is curried lentils to hide the taste). Looks like a press release, probably handed out when the production office became aware that half the Twitterverse is haring off down an ‘alternate universe’ rabbit hole.28 January 2020 at 15:10 #69449
Is the fact that the TARDIS was over a black hole when CapDoc started but then refused to regenerate a factor? Is JoDoc the Doctor we would have got if he’d gone through with it then and that she’s the Doc of betwixt universes. WhitDoc being the one who emerges after time being frozen and all the events of TUAT. I guess that might still fall into the ‘parallel universe Doc’ getout that Chibs has nixed but I think there might we wiggle room.
And at the mo, I’m kind of liking it because it doesn’t render TUAT a pointless exercise that slightly devalued the potential impact of the end of The Doctor Falls.
I think the modus operandi of the aliens from Spyfall (can’t even remember their name. Chibs, you really need to work on your alien-naming skills. Your choices are rubbish and unmemorable) and the line about possible futures at the end of Orphan 55 strike me as possibly being hints in that direction.
It also struck me that Chibs might be being a bit tricksy here. What he’s actually said that JoDoc isn’t from an alternative universe. But what (ref. my half-assed theory above) is that WhitDoc has been the alt-universe Doctor all along and JoDoc is the ‘our’ regular one?28 January 2020 at 17:11 #69453Psymon @psymon
@jimthefish I’ve had the same thought about JW being the alt for some reason, given the generally positive reaction to the Doc Ruth I think if she was used as a plot device for a couple of episodes that could backfire, I think she will definitely be a recurring character and maybe we’ll eventually see our first true Doctor death without regeneration as JW sacrifices herself and Doc Ruth takes over, or vice versa? There will definitely be Big Finish stories and books with Doc Ruth I think…28 January 2020 at 17:33 #69454
I think that’s almost a certainty with regards to Big Finish.
And it’s probably too early to say for sure but I wouldn’t be massively surprised if we have, in fact, just met the next Doctor…. at the very least, I think she’ll become WhitDoc’s equivalent of Captain Jack/River Song — a capable peer of the Doctor’s who can show up every so often, as required.28 January 2020 at 18:36 #69459
The idea of some kind of twinned regeneration does seem a good deal more persuasive overall than that of a parallel universe, because it could be developed to account for pretty much every anomaly. Martin Doctor didn’t seem to recognise Whittaker Doctor’s sonic, though, which would suggest that her predecessor was an early incarnation. She also seemed to believe that two incarnations of the Doctor and Tardis couldn’t exist in proximity without causing serious problems, which is an early concept, long since demonstrated to be false.
Could the double regeneration of the first and twelfth Doctors immediately following their encounter have triggered such an anomalous twinning effect, but specifically in the regeneration of the first Doctor not that of the twelfth? Which is not to say that the effect of the black hole on the Capaldi Doctor and the Tardis couldn’t have been a contributory factor.
If this twinning did occur so early on but was unobserved by either resulting version of the Doctor, it suggests that the result was a split time line, so not technically a parallel or alternative universe, and that this split time line has somehow merged again following the second and technically later of the two regenerations which triggered the effect in the first place, closing a neat loop. A merging of split time lines would certainly account for the apparent differences between what we know of the Time Lords, and the Time Lord history – and possibly culture – behind Martin Doctor and Gat, including the fact that for the latter the destruction of Gallifrey, actual or apparent, never seems to have happened.
As a random afterthought, might this anomaly also be the reason that the first act of the Tardis after Capaldi Doctor regenerated as Whittaker Doctor was seemingly to jettison her? Or did she just press the wrong button?28 January 2020 at 20:19 #69463
I think my main problem with an alt-universe Doctor, whether the Martin Doctor or the Whittaker Doctor, is that it strikes me as full-on blue boringers. Everything you know is a lie – because we’re in an alternative to the real Whoniverse, and CapaldiDoc’s aborted regeneration produced a Buffy-like double regeneration. Two Doctors, no waiting. 🙂
Where’s the angst in that? If the Master blows up Gallifrey (lampshaded that this was again this week), I’d like it to be a bit more exciting than ‘oh, it’s not the real one, fooled you ::manic giggle::’ I’d like a previously unknown Doctor to be more a terrible secret (like the War Doctor) than ‘oh, I have a twin, how cool’. And I would like an alternate universe where we can actually tell the dratted difference between the ‘real’ Whoniverse and the ‘alternate’.
It’s not that it isn’t possible, it’s just that it sounds far less exciting than the history of Gallifrey being a total lie (which fits with the ‘historical’ memory of Rassilon versus the real bloke when he turns up) and the Doctor discovering that part of her past has been wiped. Not repressed because she hates that bit of herself – wiped. Just like she’s done to Donna, tried to do to Clara and did to Ada and Noor.
And, in a bit of meta, casting a black female actor as a Doctor who’s been wiped from history is kind of … resonant.
Anyway, Mudlark, would between Troughton and Pertwee be a possible slot for a ‘wiped’ Doctor? Jamie and Zoe were mind-wiped, after all.28 January 2020 at 20:43 #69466
Anyway, Mudlark, would between Troughton and Pertwee be a possible slot for a ‘wiped’ Doctor?
That did occur to me as a possible alternative, since the circumstances of Troughton Doctor’s regeneration were somewhat unusual; but I opted for the Hartnell/Capaldi regeneration scenario as more likely because of the symmetry between what could be viewed as a double or paired regeneration and the emergence of twin Doctors ignorant of one another’s existence. What seemed less likely to me was twin Doctors resulting solely from the Capaldi Doctors regeneration, for the reasons stated above.
My hypothesis here doesn’t involve an alt-universe, only a time line which divides and then merges again, bookending the regeneration of Hartnell Doctor and that of Capaldi Doctor, which seems to me a fairly neat solution and not all that hackneyed. In any event, I just hope that the solution Chibnall has dreamed up is not blue boringers.28 January 2020 at 21:55 #69470
Re: your twinning idea. Are we to suppose that at the moment of regeneration of the Hartnell Doctor that, even though we clearly see Hartnell’s face slowly turn into Troughton’s, somewhere else there is another Hartnell turning into the Martin Doctor? And when that happens another Tardis, another Gallifrey (one that include Gat), et al, emerges as the result of a split time line? And then at some point(?) the timelines merge again? Also, since the Martin Doctor and the Whittaker Doctor are captured by the Judoon, and Gat appears, does this mean that the Judoon have been around for as long as the Hartnell Doctor (or at least as long as the Troughton Doctor) but in a split timeline? And if Gat is around, and talking to the Whittaker Doctor, does this mean the timeline is still split?
I am just trying to get my head around this.28 January 2020 at 22:27 #69471
Are we to suppose that at the moment of regeneration of the Hartnell Doctor that, even though we clearly see Hartnell’s face slowly turn into Troughton’s, somewhere else there is another Hartnell turning into the Martin Doctor? And when that happens another Tardis, another Gallifrey (one that include Gat), et al, emerges as the result of a split time line?
That’s it, more or less. From a universal point of view the divergence of the time lines might have been barely noticeable to begin with but, given the effect of the Doctor we have known on the universe over the course of the time line we have seen, it could have increased gradually. Furthermore, in the centuries since the initial twinning the alternative Doctor could also have regenerated many times and Martin Doctor only the latest of many. This doesn’t necessarily mean that the main actors in both time lines – Time Lords, Daleks, Cybermen, Judoon and so on -shouldn’t be more or less the same, just that their actions and interactions may have differed in some ways.
Think of the divergence and eventual re-merging of the time lines as an ellipse, at one end of which is the regeneration of Hartnell Doctor and at the other the corresponding regeneration of Capaldi Doctor.
The flaw in this argument is that it supposes that the divergent time lines differed only in respect of the Doctor(s), the Time Lords and those whom they interacted with or affected directly, otherwise their merging would result in utter chaos. And probably bad news for planet Earth 😈20 February 2020 at 16:30 #69764
Just came across the cast list for the two final episodes, and it seems that the Master is back, and, I suspect, based on the actors, perhaps a Time Lord or two. I feel terrible saying this, but, I should be more excited than I am.20 February 2020 at 18:21 #69765
Well, the Master being back is expected. Given the Castrovalva/Logopolis like nature of the Villa this week, I was expecting him to pop out of the woodwork.
I strongly suspect the Timeless Child is going to go into next series, though.23 February 2020 at 19:27 #69792MissRori @missrori
I think it’s important to remember here is that this season has had a bad case of the glums; aside from the Tesla episode, it’s been pretty downbeat. So to keep people wanting to follow things into next year the season finale has to end on a hopeful note of some kind — the way all the Capaldi season finales did. We get a rough episode tonight, and then next week things are looking up with whatever is revealed, be it splintered Doctors (remember Clara? It could happen to the Doctor) or alternate universes or maybe it all being some kind of dream crab situation. It’s all about travelling hopefully after all. 😉24 February 2020 at 13:23 #69814MissRori @missrori
Given that next week’s episode is called “The Timeless Children” and there was all that fluff with Brendan in last night’s episode, plus Gallifrey and the Master, I’m thinking that arc’s going to be resolved next week. If anything’s going to be held over at this point, it will be the Fugitive Doctor, perhaps for Christmas/New Year’s.5 March 2020 at 17:12 #70015
Wasn’t sure how official this was, so decided to play it safe by posting here.5 March 2020 at 17:24 #70017Nightingale @nightingale
Hi! I’m glad that Mandip Gill is staying on. For me she’s been the breakout star of Chris Chibnall’s run so far.6 March 2020 at 02:03 #70021winston @winston
@blenkinsopthebrave Oh, that is too bad! I really liked the Graham and Ryan pair. Maybe as a grandparent I enjoyed the easy, friendly relationship between them that has developed over time. I liked Bradley Walsh as comedy relief on the show also. Oh well, changes will be made whether I like it or not.1 April 2020 at 12:07 #70362Craig @craigEmperor
I saw a rumour on Twitter that Matt Smith will be returning as the Eleventh Doctor in this year’s Christmas Day Special, Revolution of the Daleks, alongside Jodie Whittaker, Bradley Walsh, Mandip Gill, Tosin Cole and … John Barrowman. No confirmation though.1 April 2020 at 13:26 #70366
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