Spyfall part 2
5 January 2020 at 17:00 #68829Craig @craigEmperor
After last episode’s big reveal the BBC seem to be keeping any details about this well under wraps. I couldn’t find any information on it. They don’t even have an image gallery up on the BBC site (which is rare). I had to grab the image above from the “Next Time” trailer.
Anyway, all the BBC are saying is that a terrifying plan to destroy humanity is about to reach fruition – Guess whose plan that is!
The Doctor and her friends have to escape multiple traps and defeat the deadly alliance we met in part one.
I thought part one was reasonably good, elevated by the twist at the end. Let’s hope Chibnall can stick the landing with part two.5 January 2020 at 20:09 #68838
OK, interesting: ‘how else could I get your attention?’ or was it would – after all, how else would the Master get the Doctor’s attention? He can’t just call like a normal person…
So this could be between Simm and Gomez, or after Gomez – I think I remember she refused to regenerate, did she? So has the Simm version.
If between, the events of this season might explain the kinder disposition between the Doctor Missy rode in on. If after, it might explain something of a moral re-set. Either way, she’s going to have to go get him.5 January 2020 at 20:17 #68839Devilishrobby @devilishrobby
Well that sets the story arc for this series does one thinks.
Does this re-open the door to the theories that the Doctor is not what we have always thought or for that matter perhaps what she has always thought. It makes you wonder how one time lord could be so pivotal in so many events and what big bad could have sent the Master off on one to have essentially destroyed his his own race if that’s what has happened. We still don’t have an answer as to where this Master lies in his personal timeline but no doubt we we will meet him again. Actually liked the episode even though it didn’t answer all that it started , why were the dimensional spy’s spying in the first place is this a foreboding of a greater invasion etc5 January 2020 at 20:23 #68840
@devilishrobby possibly because of the concept of the Time Lords as a really, really Big Bad. Bad enough to upset the Master, and he usually likes that kind of thing – I’m reminded hazily of Ten talking about how Time Lords have to look into something – and what was in it turned the Master mad, meanwhile, the Doctor started running. (it’s been a long time since I saw that episode, so that might be wrong.)
I do remember thinking at some point that meant they both had intensity negative responses to it, compared to, apparently, the rest of the Time Lords. So are the Doctor and the Master the great opposites they appear to be, or somehow on the same side of a coin, the opposite side being the rest of their people?
I think it was going to be a less impressive invasion till the Master stepped in. They seem to be after data storage, in other words, a place to live. Just another alien race trying to colonise our planet then. I still submit that trying to upload themselves into human bodies is a little Cyberman-ee. In an inverted way, perhaps.5 January 2020 at 20:47 #68841Craig @craigEmperor
Well, it might be the couple of gin & tonics I had since dinner but, I thought that was a vast improvement over possibly all the episodes from the last series. Loved all the time jump stuff and the fun stuff (such as Graham’s laser shoes – it’s a family show so it should be silly and fun at times – I can live with that). And there’s an ongoing story set up. It seems like Chibnall has learned from the reaction to last season. Here’s hoping it continues.
And if someone’s only takeaway from this is “Oh, yeah, forcing it down our throats that women did this and women did that and men are useless” I really feel sorry for them. But there’ll probably be a few.5 January 2020 at 20:51 #68843Devilishrobby @devilishrobby
@miapatrick maybe they are. The Doctor admits she and the Master are very old friends who went in divergent paths. In fact as revealed in the BG story The 5 Doctors the early timelords were evil and cruel enough to create the death zone as gladiatorial form of entertainment so twisted individuals like the master are not unknown to the timelord race.
Sort of based on what the Master said about the Timelord founding fathers and their lying to them and something about the timeless child, and also the fact that we now know a timelord may have more than one set of regenerations. I wonder if this really is the Doctors second set of regenerations but she does not remember as yet. Not sure if it’s cannon to current Whoverse but I remember reading somewhere that early timelords had unlimited regenerations could in fact the Doctor be one of these early “ immortal” timelords and just not remember.5 January 2020 at 22:20 #68844Spider @spider
Hello all it’s been a while! Happy New Year and all that!
Well, wow! That has been a great start to the new series! Much better than last series – which I did enjoy but felt was lacking a bit in a few areas – one of which was a lack of proper villains for the Doctor to face up to and riff-off. This (and to be fair last years New Years special) hit the mark far better! I really feel Jodie’s Doctor shines far brighter when she is up against the better actors/characters. Also the pacing of the episode was much better, the plot and characters allowed to breathe more. Settings and filming are pretty stunning as well. Very good!
Still feel there are maybe too many companions – I do love them all but I just worry it makes it difficult to give them all something meaningful to do in each episode. This 2-parter did get the balance quite well, although poor Ryan seems to have been given the “stupid ball” to hold, mainly for comedy. For me his nerves in part 1 when going undercover were a bit over the top and boasting to the bad guys about their plan in part 2 just seemed a bit stupid. However, these are pretty minor niggles to be fair! Really thought Yaz had better material for these two episodes, her getting really shaken when she gets transported to the strange realm but then is ok felt really real. Hope Graham gets a bit more to do in upcoming episodes but you have to love him and his laser shoes! Very silly but very funny.
Main (fairly minor) complaint: I was just really disappointed there was no reference at all to the Missy & Twelve era – I wasn’t hoping for much, just a little throwaway comment would have done! But reading what was already posted/theorized by some here from part 1 that this could be a Master from in-between Simm and Gomez, that could make sense … although possibly throws up more issues. GAH! Maybe I’m just being over sensitive and looking for SOME callback to Twelve as he is one of my favourites and I so enjoyed the dynamic with him and Missy.
Very intrigued (but also a little worried) about what the big lie/secret is now about the Time Lords. Liked the callback to the timeless child as that snippet from last series though – as at the time that line really made me wonder what it meant!
So we now have that the Doctor destroyed Gallifrey to put and end to the time war, then un-destroyed it and hid it away in a pocket universe. For it to pop up again to provide a new set of regenerations. Only to find it again the ‘long way round’ through billions of years of torture, become president (again) and boot out the council before running away (again) by stealing a TARDIS. And now the Master has found out something B.A.D. and got so angry wiped out Gallifrey? Hmmm … I bet the Daleks are REALLY confused about all this now XD I just can imagine the tactical sessions:
- Supreme Dalek: We will exterminate the Time Lords and Gallifrey!
- Tactical Dalek: The MA-STER has already exterminated the Time Lords and Gallifrey
- Supreme Dalek: NO! We are the supreme beings and MUST have the ultimate victory! We must travel back in … TIME.
- +++ several sounds effects and swirly things +++
- Tactical Dalek: We can-not locate Gallifrey in this time period.
- Supreme Dalek: Repeat the procedure.
- +++several sounds effects and swirly things again+++
- Supreme Dalek: RE-PORT!
- Tactical Dalek: The DOC-TOR has already exterminated the Time Lords and Gallifrey.
- Supreme Dalek: ….?….
Ohh! Sudden thought – wasn’t it the Hybrid creature that was supposed to stand over the ruins of Gallifrey? Is this now actually the Master? Or is there a link to the lie the Master has uncovered being something about the Hybrid? I know this was supposedly already answered in Hell Bent etc. and it’s unlikely that Chibnall would not have carried across the idea from Moffat – but it’s still a bit of a bonkers theory to throw out there 🙂
(\(\;;/)/)5 January 2020 at 23:04 #68845
In my case the couple of gins and tonics were before dinner, but I agree with @craig and @spider that, for my money, those two episodes are well above the standard of the last series and suggest that Chibnall is finally hitting his stride. Episode 1 as the opener was highly enjoyable and the Bond theme was fun with all the essential ingredients – improbable gadgets, a casino scene, car/motor bike chases and an evil genius. It was not particularly subtle; but then we haven’t been led to expect subtle from Chibbers, at least not at the same level as Moffat. But this episode was somewhat more complex and in that respect better than the first, even if the resolution did smack a bit of ‘with one bound they were free’ – but then it was ever thus and nothing to get steamed up about.
Ada Gordon/Lovelace and Noor Inayat Khan in the same episode? I’m delirious! and super smugly chuffed that I realised the identity of the woman in the bonnet within seconds, as soon as she told the Doctor that she thought the place they were in was her own mind (and before that the Doctor had muttered something about synapses, which should please @pedant ).
The Master, once he revealed his identity did come across at first in rather Simm style manic super-villain mode, but then, towards the end, this façade (?) seemed to dissolve into something much more reflective and nuanced, perhaps presaging a resumption of the intricate love/hate dance with the Doctor. Whether or not this is so, the evidence so far does point to a proper arc this series, and I was very happy to note that the Child of Time reference was picked up again, finally; it did seem too promising a hint to be dropped without further reference, and now it recurs in a context in which Gallifrey and the Time Lords are seemingly gone and everything about them was a lie. I can’t wait (salivating and rubbing hands emoji).
There will no doubt be further thoughts but they will have to wait until I have had a good night’s sleep.5 January 2020 at 23:13 #68846
Okay, that was good. Couple of thoughts
This second episode is all about the Doctor going back in time and putting an ‘escape clause’ in the Master’s Evil Plan (TM). Which kind of makes me think that Gallifrey is currently a Schrodinger’s Gallifrey – neither dead or alive until the Doctor works out if there is an ‘escape clause’ in the Master’s burning of Gallifrey. But first she has to work out why the Master did it.
The name O is more than just a joke. But is it O as as in this Master now seeing himself as ‘nothing’ or is it O as in binary numbers? He’s the 0 to the Doctor’s 1?
I’m inclined to post-Missy, because if this Master is post-Missy, then the character development is that the stuff O discovered about the Timeless Child and the founding of Gallifrey being all lies was so shocking that it’s utterly wiped out the progress that was being made. It’s tipped him back over the edge. In addition, those comments about the beauty of chaos, and killing people making him feel like he’s doing what he’s supposed to do felt like they had a bit more ‘weight’ to them than ‘I’m really evil, me’.
For some reason, the Ursula K. LeGuin story ‘The ones who walk away from Omelas’ is now really running through my mind.5 January 2020 at 23:55 #68847Juniperfish @juniperfish
@spider haha I loved your dalek riff.
Well, Spyfall was a romp I grant you, and I wish I didn’t feel this way, but it left me kind of cold, sadly.
I felt Chibnall chucked the kitchen sink at it, from cameo Stephen Fry, to new Master, but that I couldn’t find the emotional beats, the pulse of the story.
I could have enjoyed a whole episode just of the Doctor meeting Ada Lovelace, or a whole episode learning about why the difficult relationship between Daniel Barton and his Mum led him towards collaborating with aliens to commit planetary-wide genocide (!), or a whole episode of the Master as a Nazi (not a camp Nazi – if we’re going to do the Nazis, let’s see the true horror), or a whole episode of Graham, Yaz and Ryan on a mission to find out more about the Doctor, and sneakily exploring the recesses of the TARDIS, then getting lost and into trouble (from the wardrobe to a booby trapped laboratory).
Instead, I felt out of breath, but flat.
The elements also felt very recycled – once again WW2 and the Victorian period. Once again the destruction of Gallifrey. After the amazing The Day of the Doctor and Hell Bent/ Heaven Sent Gallifrey-focussed episodes, the Master’s out of the blue swift destruction of the Time Lord home-world in its bubble universe (which??? should have been really difficult to get to???) just didn’t have the same kind of emotional resonance.
However, I’ll admit it does set up an intriguing arc, promising to delve deeper into Time Lord origins – and I am grateful for an arc.
And I did love Ada Lovelace. I am just disappointed the Doctor didn’t flirt with her, having grown used, I suppose to flirty Doctors.
I hate to say it, but Chibnall isn’t really doing it for me a writer on his own show, and I wish he’d write fewer episodes himself. The stand-out episodes for me last season were Rosa and Demons of the Punjab.
I am fond of WhitDoc, but she seems remote, and I do think that’s a problem with the writing, not with her.
Maybe it’s me.
I would like some more Doc one-on-one companion time – so she can have some more intimate conversations/ experiences with Graham, Yaz and Ryan separately. Which they can then gossip about as a trio later.6 January 2020 at 08:12 #68848
@juniperfish I felt as though the 7% not human DNA was a big part of Barton’s coldness here.
And I think the Master played the Nazi thing a bit camp mostly because he’d find the concept of human racism ridiculous – not because of anything fine in his character, but because he holds the whole species in such contempt. Pot calling the kettle a piece of cooking equipment, in his opinion. How could he take a bunch of humans calling themselves a master race seriously?
Plus it would somehow interfere with the brief moment of uneasy closeness between him and the Doctor. The Doctor’s enduring bond with a mass murdering psychopath is easier the less we associate said psychopath with our own evils. That said I was uncomfortable with the hiding under the floorboards scene. It felt, at best, crass. Possibly historical proximity, I wonder if I’d feel the same at a scene in Tudor England with the Doctor hiding in a priest hole?6 January 2020 at 10:48 #68852BadWolfAlice @badwolfalice
That was another strong episode. Not perfect – the ending was rather rushed, as is often the case with Chibnall’s stories – but it does feel like he’s getting into his stride now. That said, I’m not sure how I feel about The Doctor’s methods of dealing with The Master in this episode. Her using his own skin colour to turn the Nazis against him is a questionable choice. And by taking his TARDIS, she left The Master unsupervised on Earth for 77 years; how many more people did he kill in that time?
Anyway, I’m very intrigued by this Gallifrey arc. Clearly Chibbers has been planning it for a while, as there was that reference to ‘the timeless child’ last series, so hopefully it will be a good one.6 January 2020 at 11:08 #68853
@badwolfalice I am very, very happy about the arc. I enjoyed the last season, mostly, I thought it was a nice, long playing story about grief, informed by, but not focusing on the Doctor’s own multiple bereavements, which I think helped clear the emotional air a little. What arc there was was essentially the relationship between Graham and Ryan. I liked it.
But now we seem to be properly back to the bonkers theorising. Much as I liked the last season, my favourite thing about Who is speculating. It was Moffat’s version that got me hooked. And there wasn’t really much to get our teeth into last season. Apart from ‘the timeless child’ reference.6 January 2020 at 11:18 #68855Charlie Cook @charlie-cook
Wow! A lot of name dropping in this episode. Like most, I guessed Ada straight away, but didn’t guess Madeleine – there was a programme about SOE a couple of years ago, and I think she was mentioned in that.
A nice set up of the series arc. Have we seen the last of the Master? (Doubt it!)6 January 2020 at 11:32 #68856
@miapatrick. Once again: Loved what you wrote.
How could he take a bunch of humans calling themselves a master race seriously?
I found Whittaker’s performance here brilliant. When the Master makes her kneel. When she asks “what do you want?” Chills. Her pacing was superlative & the direction of both parts was beautifully done though a few edit problems were noticeable as @pedant suggested.
And Yaz’ terror within the neural pathways at the beginning of Part 1 and her subsequent fears & tears in the “outback” were very real to me too @spider. Her concern that they could invade the Tardis tells me she might just say “enough’s enough.”
@mudlark Well done you! I have to admit I had no idea who they were. Yes, I really wrote that. I knew Babbage (which gives me limited points!).
The score was tip-top too.6 January 2020 at 11:41 #68857
Yes, one could say that there’s a lack of emotional resonance with yet another “let’s go to Gallifrey.” But I don’t see it that way. The resonance was created by two ‘resonating’ out of time Time Lords. The recording by the Master & the look on the Doctor’s face was beautifully portrayed. I felt the Master’s pain. I felt the Doctor’s reaction. As if having smashed him way thru to Gallifrey, having saved it, she realises it’s happening again: not “fear me, I killed them all” but both “the Master’s killed them all & perhaps he’s right to. Unless, I, the Doctor, am the problem.”
Is the Timeless Child the Big Bang of Gallifrey and Kasterborous?6 January 2020 at 11:56 #68858
I may have known who Ada Lovelace and Noor Inayat Khan were but, having just consulted what I wrote yesterday evening, I note that I wrote Child of Time* when I meant Timeless Child 😳 Tiredness or senility? It could be either, although I can still do the Times cryptic crosswords** so I I’m probably not yet totally gaga.
* I did re-read the Josephine Tey novel with that title a few months ago, which might explain it. My mind resembles a rag-bag sometimes, or a slowly simmering pot of minestrone soup.
** No I don’t buy or subscribe to the Times, it’s owned by Murdoch. I do, however, buy the books of collected crosswords from time to time.6 January 2020 at 13:08 #68859
Ooh, it is nice being able to theorise about non-character arcs again. Mind you, Chibbers is a character driven writer, so my current bonkers theory is kind of character driven.
It’s noticeable that a lot of people seem to be picking up that the Dhawan Master is somehow not entirely what he should be. There was a lot of ‘is he helping the Doctor?’ last episode discussion and this one and last one @miapatrick, you’ve been ‘maybe between Simm and Gomez?’ The normal practice of the show is to have each Master/Missy we see follow the previous one, and I’m certainly inclined to have him follow Missy until proved otherwise.
My guess is that in this series arc, O/The Master needs the Doctor’s help, because he’s just burnt Gallifrey to the ground out of sheer fury and is now being driven completely bonkers by the remorse. That would carry on the Missy arc, anyway.
But this O is a combination and development of his previous two incarnations – the Simm Master and the Gomez Missy – he can feel remorse, but he can’t admit it to the Doctor, because if he does the Doctor’s won (or at least, is winning) his/her ages long battle to make the Master/Missy ‘guid’.
So he needs to get the Doctor’s attention, direct her to Gallifrey, point her at the ‘lie’ problem – and see if she can reverse or mitigate what he did. The Doctor has, after all, managed to reverse the destruction before.
But because O still wants to win that almost life-long game, he needs to do this without admitting that he, O, is anything but an utter b*st*rd. Hence a lot of the ‘I’m really evil, me, look at me killing people for mad reasons.’
I need to do a rewatch, I think, but my first impression of the ‘recorded message’ sequence in the TARDIS was that the person recording it was being absolutely torn to bits by what he’d done and was trying desperately not to show it.6 January 2020 at 13:25 #68860
I don’t think it was a questionable choice at all – it links with the communications tech we meet fighting the Nazi’s being Noor Inayat Khan. O is perfectly happy to be a Nazi, despite this incarnation’s skin colour. Noor is risking her life (and will later lose her life) fighting the fascist doctrine that would call her ‘inferior’.
It may also link with the series-arc – at least, the Time Lords are historically a bunch of racist isolationists and the Master does seem to demonstrate that ‘other races are my toys’ attitude to the nth power.
So the Doctor gives him a very practical demonstration of why using the Nazi’s is ‘low, even for him’. The biter bit.6 January 2020 at 13:47 #68861
@juniperfish Well, trust no one — the Master could well be lying about all this Big Lie stuff. Besides, Thirteen didn’t take a look around. Could be some Drylanders about, making do. Or this will prove rewritable like in “Day of the Doctor”. Thirteen didn’t get to save Gallifrey then, but in this year’s finale, she does!
On the other hand, if it is all done for, well that’s what Gallifrey gets for what they pulled in Series 9. Twelve is avenged! 😉
Frankly, this episode is coming off as rather bitterly timed. A lot of people here in the U.S. are wondering if we’re heading towards WWIII, Australia’s burning down, and there’s nothing left for good people to do. Sorry Doctor. Darkness Always Wins.6 January 2020 at 14:17 #68862
Frankly, this episode is coming off as rather bitterly timed.
That is, surely, precisely the point at which a non-religious hero like the Doctor needs to point out that darkness doesn’t win in the long run. Noor is heading off to die in Dachau, possibly one of the darkest endings possible for her own story on Earth – but in the wider story of Earth, the fascism she’s fighting won’t win.
Her contribution may have been tiny in the larger scheme of things; the point is that she made that contribution.6 January 2020 at 14:22 #68863
@bluesqueakpip The Le Guin story (the premise of which I know rather than the text, since it’s pretty well-known) comes to my mind too. But I’m not sure Chibnall is going to radically alter the Who Mythos into a Big Lie thing. It would seriously undercut something like “The Day of the Doctor” to have the whole of Gallifrey turn out to have never been worth saving, and we already had the copout of the Hybrid — the last tease of something really big being added to the mythos — in Series 9. (Moffat was pretty insistent post-airing that the Hybrid was Clara and the Doctor even though that’s not how prophecies work, so I doubt Chibnall intends to bring that idea back.)
Alternatively, if the Timeless Child thing does turn out to be a major change, it will probably be a positive one by the end of the arc — the Doctor will pull, in effect, a “Beast Below” (or Frozen II) and Gallifrey will end up not only restored but better than ever for exposing the truth, resulting in a more positive Time Lord world.
In fact, this could help explain where O falls among the Masters. He came after Saxon and got to post-“Day” Gallifrey first and blew it up, then Thirteen fixed the problem, then Missy came along and decided to taunt Twelve for fun, then the ungrateful Time Lords kidnapped Twelve, etc. It can make sense! 😀
Anyway, this is not the time for Doctor Who to send the message “The past/present isn’t perfect so burn it all down cuz who needs the future?”, so I’m pretty sure that this arc is going to have a happy ending. Have to keep the kiddies in mind!6 January 2020 at 14:42 #68864BadWolfAlice @badwolfalice
@bluesqueakpip Fair enough, it doesn’t seem so bad when you put it like that. It was certainly quite an uncomfortable scene but I suppose that was the intention.6 January 2020 at 14:44 #68865
@bluesqueakpip I agree about Missy somewhat – that is, what he’s doing now makes sense as either between the two or after Missy – it could either explain a more friendly disposition to the Doctor in Missy originally, or explain why oh so nearly properly ‘guid’ Missy is back on human swatting form. And as you say, the Doctor tends to meet the Master in order.
‘How else would I get your attention’ is reminding me of something – might be a line from Kill Bill.
Anyway, the Doctor is going to have to go find the Master and get him out sometime. Which means unfortunate conversations with the companions, Ten had a moment like that with Martha, I think.
By the way, why so secretive? Does the Doctor normally keep so much of their story quiet with the companions? Ironically, she only told them once she knew that what she’s telling them might not be the truth, or the entire truth, so she’s still withholding. Such a warm, friendly, down the line Doctor. And so far, the least forthcoming.6 January 2020 at 14:45 #68866
@miapatrick Yeah, I think the idea was that the Kasaavin were just trying to find warm bodies to colonize, and our unused data (for all our intelligence) made us particularly desirable. Actually, I was reminded of “The Unquiet Dead” way back in Series 1.6 January 2020 at 14:54 #68867
@miapatrick Well…Thirteen’s previous incarnation ended up on pretty unhappy terms with the Time Lords, and they likely weren’t going to welcome outsiders on her world anyway. Why bring up people they were never going to meet? The Master’s really the only person she has from that world out there so work with.
Especially given that this set of companions has been dealing with some major grief/angst from the beginning with the demise of Grace, and how unhappily things have turned out with recent companions when she did let them in on her past, the issues with Time Lords, etc. and/or focused on adventures rather than let them have plenty of downtime with Earth family, etc., Thirteen might be wanting some distance between her “fam” and the rest of her lives. And right now, if she doesn’t even know the truth about her world anymore, why share it? Also, as people have pointed out elsewhere, Graham, Ryan, and Yaz weren’t asking her a lot of these kind of questions in Series 11. If you don’t ask, you’ll never know.
(Also, keep in mind that the 1960s Doctors hardly had much to say about their pasts even when questioned, and when the info would have been a lot fresher in their minds!)6 January 2020 at 21:11 #68868
I’m not sure Chibnall is going to radically alter the Who Mythos into a Big Lie thing.
No, I don’t think he is. I have read the LeGuin story and the emphasis is not on the Big Lie itself as much as it’s on the choice people have to make, whether to continue in the lie or walk away. And I suspect I’m thinking of it because, in their different ways, the Doctor and the Master are both Ones Who Run Away.
I suspect what we’re going to find is possibly something riffing off the New Adventure novelisations, where there was a strong implication that the Doctor wasn’t who she thought he was. Possibly the Master, also, is not who he thinks he is. Not a radical alteration as much as one of those reboots where everything you thought you knew suddenly turns out to be for different reasons than we thought. Like the post-gap discovery that the Great Time Lord Hero Rassilon was actually more of an evil dictator than Time Lord history had recorded.
“The past/present isn’t perfect so burn it all down cuz who needs the future?”,
That it’s the Master who burnt it all down is a fairly good pointer that Chibnall is hinting that this was not the most optimal decision. 🙂6 January 2020 at 21:24 #68869
@miapatrick Having now watched it, I think this may well be a post Missy incarnation. When the Dhawan Master talks about the buzz that killing gives him, then adds that he knows ‘I’m in the right place, doing what I was made for’ – the look in his eyes is completely haunted.
He may also be referring to the Timeless Child reveal, that he’s discovered he’s not simply someone abused by Rassilon, but was actually made. Deliberately designed as a psychopathic killer – and one who finds killing fun.
The final edit often has Dhawan either slightly out of focus or shot to one side as if they’re trying to hide the Master’s real expression from the audience. But in the previous episode, when he says ‘everything you know is a lie’ there are tears in his eyes – we see that again in this episode in his recorded call.
I’m also wondering why he didn’t kill Noor. Was it because she’s a historical figure and he didn’t want to change history, or was it because she wasn’t frightened of him?6 January 2020 at 22:06 #68870
@bluesqueakpip I noticed the desperation and angry sadness when he said that!
I’m absolutely on board with post-Missy, since we seem to have been given a reason for, shall we say, a little moral regression. I’m not sure Missy was entirely reformed anyway. This Master seems desperate. ‘both Ones Who Ran Away’ exactly. At least since the gap, a particular relationship between the two has been developed through different stories. Something different from the other Timelords.
I also noted in this episode all the ‘when I kill someone I expect them to stay dead’ stuff was said in front of witnesses. I was looking out for that, since it was in the trailer. When it was just him and the Doctor – in the flesh, or in the message – there was a switch in attitude.
Besides, as Eleven once said I believe: ‘love a psychopath, me.’ I think a considerably better job has been done on the Master than was done on River, psychopath wise. He really does enjoy killing. And yet, the Doctor is going to have to go get him at some point.
@missrori ‘darkness always wins’ it ain’t over yet, the world. And no, that’s not what the show is going to say either. Light never wins, in the world, either, to be frank. It’s an eternal backwards and forwards. But this is Doctor Who, as you say.6 January 2020 at 22:49 #68871
In a second viewing it isn’t a surprise that the theme and the narrative thread were easier to follow, but the time-loopy resolution also seemed more logical and less of a rush.
What struck even more forcefully than on first viewing, though, is the masterly (cough) way in which Sasha Dhawan conveys the internal contradictions and warring motives which @bluesqueakpip discussed in her post above. The full-on metaphorical moustache-twirling seems a not altogether convincing act in which he is trying as much reassure himself and to live up a the image of what he thinks he should be as recalled from earlier incarnations, as he is to assert dominance over the Doctor; but an underlying doubt and insecurity keep breaking through.
In the Gallery of Practical Science in 1843 he makes his entrance like the villain in a pantomime and, after theatrically disposing of a few random bystanders to demonstrate that he is still ‘not guid’, he tells the Doctor that in killing people he feels in his hearts he is doing what he was made for; but why, after so many successive lives, should he need such primal reassurance? And when she nevertheless confronts him steadily, looking him in the eye and asking him what he wants, his expression flickers and falters for a moment, revealing his underlying uncertainty and self doubt. He recovers immediately and demands that the Doctor kneel, but even as she complies it does not feel as if he is really in control, and so it proves. Later, after he is unable to resist the invitation to a one to one meeting with the Doctor on top of the Eiffel Tower, he opens the dialogue by indulging in a moment of personal reminiscence, asking if she has forgiven him for Jodrell Bank (the climactic encounter in which the fourth Doctor fell to his regeneration, although I hardly think that anyone here needs the reminder).
It is in his ultimate holographic appearance in the ruins of Gallifrey that his latent vulnerability is most apparent. He is half boasting that he has destroyed their home planet, but at the same time his distress is almost palpable and, although he could never bring himself to make things easy for her, I agree with Bluesqueakpip that it is fundamentally a plea for her to help him out of the colossal hole he has dug for himself.7 January 2020 at 00:29 #68872
He recovers immediately and demands that the Doctor kneel, but even as she complies it does not feel as if he is really in control.
Yes. He makes her kneel to him, call him Master, just like previous incarnations would have done – and then he needs to talk to her and kneels down to do that.
He kneels to her.7 January 2020 at 00:50 #68873
Yes, excellent observations & critique. The Master’s “distress is almost palpable.” He isn’t a one stop- shop villain. The wild & mad is evident the more you look, & Dahwan’s pacing is beautiful: “You got me.” The camera waits, for a beat. And then another. The up close photography doesn’t seem showy. Neither is the plot diminished. It’s like time expands with the reveal.
I’m with you on the “slightly out of focus.” At the same time, mum’s laptop skipped focus. I had to restart it & yup, it certainly seems like Dahwan was out of immediate sight line & out of focus in scenes. I haven’t re-watched it but I’m loving the bonkers theorising, everyone.
@missrori I don’t follow the “cop out” of the hybrid? I think that was ‘sorted.’ Yeah, @nerys Mum was mentioning Listen. In that ep Orson is Danny’s descendent? When Dan says “family stuff,” yet he’s an orphan I think he’s lying. Moffat’s different to Chibnall. I preferred Moffat’s “pay attention” type of writing so the “family stuff” could be a lie? His next of kin; not at the funeral; not known to Clara, collects his toy soldier. However, I’m probably wrong!
@missrori The impression I get is that the hybrid focuses our attention on the relationships between the Doctor, Clara & Ashildr, who outlives her family watching everyone die until she meets the Doctor at the end of the universe. The Doctor fled from the myth (the algorithm) which he created. Ashildr was demonstrably difficult. Mire and human. Clara too, was a ‘hybrid:’ dead yet living between her heart beats. The TL Doctor in that triangle (& triangles are everywhere in science, myth, worship, love, sex) has human reactions, a human wife in River, human companions -during the Tennant years there was a lot of snogging 🙂 Even 12 replies to Clara when she says “I didn’t think of you as my boyfriend,” something like “I never said it was your mistake.” Anyway, hat’s my take on the Hybrid 😉
@bluesqueakpip I think what you’re saying here is great.
I think this may well be a post Missy incarnation. When the Master talks about the buzz that killing gives him…the look in his eyes is completely haunted… He may also be referring to the Timeless Child reveal….Deliberately designed as a psychopathic killer…
Outstanding. think that there’s been a lot of Time Swinging (TM) but we meet the Master chronologically? It’s good that way because in the Moffat era we had a lot of confusing time jumps as well as the Doctor stuck in a Timeless ‘apparition’ Machine (TAM) for a billion years. Having one character chronologically ordered adds balance -at least to me! I need it to be less confusing, occasionally 😀
Son of the Syzygy.7 January 2020 at 02:44 #68875blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave
Hurrah! An arc!
I love that Gallifrey has been returned front and centre to Who. This is a Master who is tortured, who feels he is the victim, and I like that.
True, we are supposed to forget about the fact that if he was on Earth for 77 years he (presumably) managed to miss all the other Masters who were around London and the environs during the ’70s and ’80s, not to mention Prime Minister Saxon. But, as Mrs Blenkinsop wisely reminds me: “You are not supposed to ask those questions”.
Other questions linger. The Doctor managed to find the devastated Gallifrey pretty quickly. I thought it was deliberately hidden in a pocket universe?
But, at the end of the day, or episode, the introduction of the Master/Gallirey arc promises interesting things to come.
Ooh, now if they could actually allude to the 1930s Raymond Massey movie “Things to Come” that would be cool.7 January 2020 at 07:07 #688767 January 2020 at 07:10 #68877Charlie Cook @charlie-cook
<span class=”useratname”>@blenkinsopthebrave “77 years on earth in the 70s and 80s” Now there is an idea for a an episode – The Two Masters</span>7 January 2020 at 18:49 #68879
@blenkinsopthebrave Actually my boyfriend and I were discussing this earlier. Gallifrey left the pocket universe at some point and ended up at the end of the universe temporally, as established in “Hell Bent”. But going by this episode, IIRC, the Master visited and razed the planet while it was in the pocket universe. So perhaps there is something here that Thirteen is going to correct.
@thane16 What I meant about the Hybrid being a copout was that it wasn’t the interesting expansion of the Time Lord/Gallifrey mythos that it could have been, but rather as you said just going back to the Doctor/Clara dynamics. I’m wondering if the Timeless Child business won’t turn out to be something similarly mild.
Elsewhere I’ve noticed a fair deal of observations/complaints about Thirteen mindwiping Ada and Noor, the former against her wishes, given that Twelve crucially relented on doing so to Clara and later Bill; io9 saw that and her leaving the Master to the Nazis as Thirteen “going dark” in the wake of finding out about the Time Lords being (supposedly) done for. Any thoughts on why Chibnall went this route? Or, given what happened to Twelve because he didn’t just mindwipe Bill in “The Pilot” — in particular, what became of her by the end of Series 10 — maybe the Doctor’s rethought their stance on this issue again?7 January 2020 at 20:23 #68880lisa @lisa
Well that got kinky when the Doctor kneeled to the Master! “Hands on head “! LMAO !
The Master was always a bit flirty! Would it be inappropriate to think they need to get a room?
In a way I think this Master has saved the show! I also think that as much as Moffett
tried to save the dark Master in his re write of the character Chibnall isn’t having any of that.
Still this Master did save these 2 episodes for me !!
Very disappointed that the light creatures aren’t the Cybermen. I prefer continuity of villains
to having new villains. This Master is definitely a quality villain. Plus I always enjoy
watching the Master and Doctor square off!
So based on the ending of this episode I anticipate more backstory about Timelord history.
When I think of what the ‘Timeless child’ could mean I think of an Ashidr.
But how could she have founded the Timelord civilization and could she have also been the ‘Other”?
Nah! Too easy.
I’m betting that we are all being manipulated into thinking that the timeless child is a child.
Anyway I’m happy for the return of a big story arc. Makes all the difference!
Didn’t think about the Unquiet Dead but yes! Very good !7 January 2020 at 22:02 #68881
He makes her kneel to him, call him Master, just like previous incarnations would have done – and then he needs to talk to her and kneels down to do that.
And that, as much as anything, seems to me evidence that this is a post-Missy incarnation. He can’t sustain the arch enemy act and succumbs to a need to engage with her on equal terms – or even as a reluctant supplicant. Simm Master was at a psychopathic extreme and took a sadistic delight in humiliating the tenth Doctor, reducing him at one point to a shrivelled homunculus in a cage and only switching allegiance when he realised that he wasn’t going to receive the benefits and rewards he expected from Rassilon; and his attitude when he encountered the twelfth Doctor does not suggest that this last minute switch altered him significantly. In contrast, and in her uniquely perverse way, Missy was a flirtatious version who just wanted her friend back, even if it was strictly on her terms, and she treated him, friend or foe, as an equal throughout. When it came, finally, to a decision between the Doctor and her earlier incarnation she wavered on the brink of redemption and at the very last moment chose the Doctor, and the Dhawan Master seems not to have regressed far from that cusp. His notably unstable state and partial reversion to a ‘despicable me’ act could be attributed to the trauma of his discoveries and actions in the interim .
I doubt if those discoveries related to him alone, although in his worst incarnations he might well have been capable of incinerating his home planet in a fit of personal pique. The Timeless Child certainly doesn’t seem to refer to him alone, because when we first encounter the reference it is in the whispers of the Remnants as they wafted around the Doctor.7 January 2020 at 23:34 #68883
True, we are supposed to forget about the fact that if he was on Earth for 77 years he (presumably) managed to miss all the other Masters who were around London and the environs during the ’70s and ’80s, not to mention Prime Minister Saxon. But, as Mrs Blenkinsop wisely reminds me: “You are not supposed to ask those questions”.
I think that’s why they were the most irritating 77 years of his life. Not only did he have to survive every Earth-based episode of Doctor Who, escaping various alien Invasions With Extreme Prejudice, he had to try and stay alive during his own bloody plans – and he couldn’t contact himself, because he knew he hadn’t.
What he did during the Saxon period, I don’t know, given that Saxon was in control of the entire Earth for The Year That Never Was. Possibly he nicked a year’s supply of emergency rations and hid in a very deep cave as soon as the Vote Saxon posters appeared. 😀
a fair deal of observations/complaints about Thirteen mindwiping Ada and Noor,
Not surprised. That was scripted and acted in what seemed to be a deliberately disturbing way. Noor, working in a wartime environment, seems to accept the necessity, but the scene with Ada seems to be deliberately reminding older viewers of Donna’s mind-wipe. The necessity can be argued – someone as smart as Ada might have advanced the science of computing immeasurably with the glimpses she’d had of the future. But it really was a very disturbing scene, which makes me wonder if it ties into the series arc.7 January 2020 at 23:43 #68885
I’m betting that we are all being manipulated into thinking that the timeless child is a child.
The Doctor’s memory flash, or race-memory flash definitely looks like a child to me.8 January 2020 at 00:20 #68886
I agree that the element of ‘melodrama villain’ seems more conscious in this Master. Doctor Who is melodrama (in a technical sense), but Sacha Dhawan seems to be doing the melodramatic villain as if it’s now an act the Master’s putting on for an audience. The top hat. The Nazi uniform. The scene in the plane hangar when his ‘I’m going to kill you … and then you … and then you’ almost has a subtext of ‘Where the bloody hell are you, Doctor, because I can’t delay killing your mates for ever?’. The whole two-parter is about alien spies, of course, but yeah, it really is like he has to put up an act in front of witnesses.
Alone with the Doctor he seems more serious, more reflective and @miapatrick, I’d say more broken. Not just desperate, but someone barely holding off a complete breakdown. Which is why he so easily flips into furious anger, even grabbing the Doctor by the throat.
Mudlark, I also think his switching allegiance was because Rassilon was the person who abused him as a child, treated him like a thing. He was willing to placate Rassilon if he’d stay alive by doing that, but once it became apparent that wasn’t an option, I think what came out were his real feelings. The Doctor is a friendly enemy; John Simm played that scene as if the Master genuinely hated Rassilon for what he’d done to him and would die with the rest of the Time Lords if he could just kill Rassilon first. [And he does seem to have forced him into another regeneration, even if he couldn’t manage to kill him].
It might be worth looking at that again, because I’m wondering if Chibbers is taking RTD’s quick explanation of ‘Oh, yeah, the Master is really evil but it’s because he was abused as a child’ and using it in this plotline. That is, he’s not ignoring the Master’s established backstory, or Missy’s character development. He’s using it. The previous abuse as a flashpoint that can make the Master flip (nuke the place, burn it, sow the soil with salt sort of flip) and Missy’s learning to feel remorse as the development that makes him (seemingly) then try and get the Doctor to help without outright asking her.8 January 2020 at 00:39 #68887lisa @lisa
I wont extrapolate that the ‘timeless child’ is a child from what the Master showed the Doctor
in the ‘flash drive’. He’s thrown lots of red herrings at the Doctor countless times.
There is some child that’s part of this s but I would think that what we and the Doctor
were allowed to view could be at best a beginning clue to a new epic Timelord story.
Plus I had a thought that the fish picture might be a clue some how? Could that
picture of the little timelord kid morph into something different? I’m wondering
if that little fish story foreshadows something about the little time child picture? Maybe?8 January 2020 at 03:08 #68888GalaxyMage @galaxymage
<p style=”text-align: left;”>I’m new to this forum (and to participating in the Doctor Who fandom) but I really wanted to participate in this discussion. If I’m missing anything from the 1st — War Doctor incarnations, feel free to tell me that. I’m relying on TARDIS wiki for information on that.</p>
My current insane and completely incorrect theory for this episode is that when The Master says that the Time Lord species was “built on the lie of the Timeless Child” (or something similar, built was definitely involved though) he might mean that it was literally built on lies. Maybe he’s saying that Gallifrey is a lie, or that the Time Lord species was built or somehow genetically engineered.
Also, since he’s already proven a fan of pulling “exact wording”, I was thinking about the grammar of that statement. They could be told the lie, which is about the Timeless Child. This seems to imply more than a simple hidden secret. They were told a lie about the Timeless Child, and chances are we already accept the lie as truth. The Timeless Child is a person, so perhaps someone from Gallifrey’s history isn’t who we think? (I’m well aware that other people have said this already, but I still wanted to state my agreement.)
Or, the sentence could mean something different. The lie of the Timeless Child. Not the lie about the Timeless Child. The lie belonging to the Timeless Child. The lie the Timeless Child told. So I think it might be possible that someone, one of the founding fathers of Gallifrey, is the Timeless Child, and was the one who told the lie.
I don’t know why this would make The Master want to destroy Gallifrey, but he’s insane so the reasoning doesn’t have to make sense to me, only to him. Still, there’s got to be something that made him hate either the Time Lords (although he doesn’t seem to hate The Doctor any more than usual, excluding Missy) or Gallifrey itself so much that he’d destroy it.
He said that he had to “make them pay”, but the Founding Fathers are all dead (maybe not Rassilon; I believe he interacted with the 12th Doctor; I’m not certain). How is killing the present Time Lords going to get a proper revenge, when they were, presumably, lied to as well? Another thing I found interesting is that (according to the write-out of the hologram message on TV Tropes; not exactly reliable, but seeing as I can’t rewatch the episode it’s the best I’ll get) The Master says “It’s buried deep in all our memories. In our identity.” Memories implies that they saw it and were present for it happening. Identity, singular. I’m not sure what to make of that.
Also, when he says “We are not who we think. You or I,” I’m not quite certain of whether he’s saying the Time Lords in general aren’t who they think of themselves as, or just the two of them. Probably the Time Lords, and The Master’s just being dramatic.
I was confused about some things in this episode. The major one being The Master’s motivations — although we’ll find out more later. He says that this was to get The Doctor’s attention and tell her about Gallifrey, but seems genuinely surprised at the fact that the light creatures didn’t kill her. Also, if he planned to murder The Doctor, why leave her a hologram on Gallifrey? He tells her about Gallifrey being destroyed on the tower, but then he tries to kill her. And in the steam technology fair, he tells her to stay dead when he kills her (I could be wrong, I felt very uncomfortable watching that scene for unknown reasons and could have misheard).
So if he wants to tell her about Gallifrey so much, how come he kills her and then doesn’t expect her to stay alive? Then again, he could just be acting, but he did say “in the second before you die” at the end of part one. Did he just change his plan after realizing that getting rid of her was harder than he thought? It would have been fairly simple if he brought backup to the Eiffel Tower. That could have backfired on him, but even if he had just tried to kill her there other than his impulsive attempt to choke her which was doomed to fail (it’s not like she kept watching him the whole time; she definitely looked away when he was talking about Gallifrey, which was a perfect opportunity to attack). I could believe that he didn’t actually want The Doctor dead, especially considering that he appears to be post-Missy. But the fact is, he does seem to want her dead for the end of Part 1 and the first half or so of Part 2. It’s only during the Eiffel Tower scene that he (in my opinion) starts to act like she’ll live, and even then he says that she won’t get a chance to verify what he says because he’ll kill her first.
And he bangs his head against the TARDIS console, frustrated, with no one watching. No one to act for. He was legitimately upset that The Doctor survived. Now, I don’t think I’ll get an explanation for this, but the inconsistency is bothering me.
I personally think the most logical explanation for The Timeless Child is that the Time Lords used to be human, but I doubt that it’s true. I don’t think I’d really want it to be true either, but I wouldn’t mind if it didn’t change how things worked by too much. Retconning is a tradition. Anyway, that seems overly obvious and like it would upset too many people, and I doubt it will be the secret.
I really like what lisa said above about the fish picture — it would be cool if it was more than just a one-off thing.
Basically, my conclusion is that I’m confused and that there’s lots of ways to use the exact wording. Please tell me if I made any mistakes!8 January 2020 at 05:09 #68889blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave
Thinking about the arc involving the Timeless Child, I just rewatched “The Ghost Monument” from the previous season. As suspected, it references “the timeless child”. It is towards the end of the episode where the Doctor is surrounded by something called “the remnants” which look like bits of floating, well…remnants…of cloth. They say to the Doctor: “We see further back. The timeless child. We see what’s hidden. Even from yourself. The outcast, abandoned and unknown.” The Doctor replies with something like:”Get out of my head!” It is not clear whether the remnants are referring to the Doctor when they talk about the outcast. And that’s it. To be honest, I was hoping for more in the way of a link between that and the most recent reference to the timeless child. Clearly, Chibnall has planted the seed of an arc early but…and I think back to the ways in which Moffat planted the seeds of an arc…well, I am sure I am missing something.8 January 2020 at 07:25 #68890
It’s the Doctor, on his own, with other humans (River). It’s Ashildr who is Mire and human. The dynamic of the Doctor with Clara is still complex, enough. However, you might be right suggesting something deeper. That there’s a ‘thing’ (that’s my word, I’m sticking to it!) the Doctor is responsible for/doesn’t know about/a myth he fears and the Timeless Child ? ?
During the whole Rassilion era in the Tennant years, there was the ……something else ….child. Mum reckons it’s the Nightmare Child or/and the Empty Child... soooo…
@Blenksinsopthebrave @bluesqueakpip @galaxymage -welcome to you, the new person! Great theories and bonkerising. I was very worried about that too: when the Master said: “stay dead this time.” There’s something right there, isn’t there? In the corner of your eye? It’s unpleasant. It’s like when Doctor 11 said to Amy “do you realise your life makes no sense?”
So it’s buried deep, Mr Blenk? So it could be the Nightmare Child/Empty Child* with its army of Neverweres. So, they, the TLs, never were what they said they were.
I know it was the panadora’s box of nasty weapons. The Nightmare Child and the Timeless Child is a similar sounding item: a self-destroying weapon. They made it and buried it. But the Master knows it***…and is stuck. Any chance that this new group of baddies in Spyfall, whilst exiling people/Ada or Yas/ into the neurones were actually chucking people into a prison not made by just these baddies but the Time Lord’s too.
it’s doubtful -the last bit. I get that the Master was imprisoned and calling out for the Doctor, and the episode’s baddies had their revenge on him. But they were beyond “your universe” and we take this form to “mock you.”
If it was Moffat I’d be prickled with excitement. I still am….but yep. Not sure.
*A Timeless Child has ‘no’ time and is thus empty. If it’s buried deep then it’s a Nightmare (child). The Doctor has a history of nightmares in Listen. Also he asks: “What do you do if you’re a creature who is never ever seen or known because their gift is HIDING? Well, what do you DO?” He laughs. But on the blackboard he sees: LISTEN.
You can connect the dots without needing more specific content. Also, the Tennant era had some Chibnall episodes. He saw some, wrote others and to bring up the Timeless Child again could be related to Tennant’s description of weapons such as the Army/the Empty Child etc etc.
*** @galaxymage This is a complex Master. He wants her dead except he also wants to write down a sort of will, should he, the Master, die first. Something he knows the Doctor would find out…which is a lie of great magnitude. He also knows the Doctor could die finding out. He knows the Doctor is a fixer: a doctor. The Master likes to control everything but now he knows the TLs are worse. At least he’s honest about it!8 January 2020 at 07:27 #688918 January 2020 at 08:27 #68895PhaseShift @phaseshiftTime Lord
I have to agree with @craig , @mudlark and others when they suggest this is an improvement on Series 11. To be upfront I didn’t get much from the last series and special at all, and I may write a blog about it sometime rather than going episode by episode.
This had pace (almost frenetic compared to series 11) and I thought the direction and camera work was much more dynamic than last year (which would have really benefitted from an initial carryover of Directors from SMs last year I think).
but it left me kind of cold, sadly
This really. And it was the recycling in this episode that really stopped me getting into it and grading it higher.
We have the the Master blowing up a plane mid air (ah, Missy in Death in heaven), the Doctor communicating to someone from the past via video recording (how could we forget blink) the gang being set up and taunted by the bad guy while pursued through contemporary London ( done better or worse in last of the Timelords do we think?)
Add in remote controlled cars with killer satnav (did no-one learn from ATMOS!) Gallifrey being burned again and even a returning joke from Curse of Fatal Death (at least the Master didn’t have to crawl through sewers this time) and yeah, this just left me disconnected.
It’s a pretty piecemeal approach to developing a story. Now that’s what I call Doctor Who volume 2020 (the RTD and SM years, resampled and remixed).
To someone not overly familiar with the recent past, or a younger viewer I guess this wouldn’t be an issue. But we live in a modern world of binge watching and catch-up.
I can’t help but think that, to someone like that, this density of recycling may make the episode seem a bit tired. And confused, because I think the return of the mindwipe was a big mistake. To a binge watcher we are only a series away from the Doctor getting his memory of Clara back and Bill’s “how would you feel if someone did this to you”. People see future technology all the time in Doctor who. Bringing the memory wipe back seemed like just a call out to Donna, ignoring the fact that she was dying and Ada… Wasn’t.
Ten points from Hufflepuff, Chibnall.8 January 2020 at 09:10 #68897
@galaxymage I meant to add to your complex (and wonderful) theories that in my re-watch the Master says “before you die” or “in your last moments I want you to know that everything you think you know is a lie.”
So, before killing her, he was ready to give her a hint and then “puff.” But being a TL he plans for the possibility he doesn’t survive. That shows a realistic approach even Missy didn’t have. She was confident when she stopped the planes; even making a deal with the daleks in the Magician’s Apprentice 2 parter with Capaldi (his series 2).
(Syzygy the younger).8 January 2020 at 10:03 #68898
so others have this I think but akrasia is Kasaarvin. No great help as it means to act against one’s will. Like incontinence. Julian Jay Savarin (word find) was a sci-fi writer.
Hmm.8 January 2020 at 10:16 #68899
as you were. No ‘r’ in Kasaavin.
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