Spyfall part 1

Home Forums Episodes The Thirteenth Doctor Spyfall part 1

This topic contains 84 replies, has 26 voices, and was last updated by  Miapatrick 5 days, 23 hours ago.

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  • #68788

    A reminder that when we take the piss out of trolls, there is a very really nastiness behind them:

    #68791
    Mr. Smith @codystott

    Don’t mind me just gonna leave these here

    #68792
    Mr. Smith @codystott

    @miapatrick @badwolfalice

    @ollie14

    What if this actually isn’t our master at all, but a master from another reality, considering these episodes are clearly about beings from another dimension. The master could just be a front runner leading his army behind him.

    #68793
    Mr. Smith @codystott

    @twelveismydoctor

    Interesting idea. But perhaps instead of diseased time lords they could actually BE the timelords after being contained in another universe. Afterall we know they escaped back to reality at some point in the future. I personally don’t think they are but it’s an interesting theory.

    #68795
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    OK, just re-watched it. “O” is hiding out in Australia. (Important). “O” turns out to be the Master. When this is revealed and they look out the window of the plane they see his house flying along with them.  O/the Master is…The Wizard of Oz.

    Where this goes, nobody knows.

    Time for dinner. Back later.

    #68796
    RorySmith @rorysmith

    Well crap.
    I knew who Missy was.
    I saw every reveal coming.
    This just punched me in the face and made me squeal like a five year old.
    I want more.

    Also, hello friends! Good to see yall here!

    #68797
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    So.. (oh, dinner is over)…if The Master is modeled on The Wizard of Oz then it tends to suggest that he is rather limited in his powers. That means…hmm.

    The end of the episode: the Doctor ends up in a place that seems rather like the matrix. Not sure what to make of this either, but if it is the case, then that means we might revisit the Timelords. Maybe…

    You’re right, it’s time for bed.

     

    #68798
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @arbutus – he did – but not so quickly. Haha, caught me, I’m the master, finally got you, now you die! Now obviously the Master’s MO is heavily influenced by the fact that it’s part of an episodic drama made for TV. But that’s the same reason you could say Hamlet prevaricates. So in drama you make it part of the personality. The Master favours elaborate, long drawn out attempts to kill the Doctor, preferably humiliate them first. Until you get the feeling he (I’ll just say he here because Missy didn’t tend to want to kill the Doctor. She wanted to bring him a little more over to her side so they could be friends again, and when that didn’t work started shifting herself.) is just addicted to the interaction. If you’re drinking a really nice wine, you sip it. I think – I haven’t seen so many of the older Who Master episodes – that in New Who there is an emphasis of an underlying bond between them. They’ve either been the only two Time Lords, or the only two Time Lords standing against the rest of the bunch. That the Doctor will forgive the Master however many humans are killed is at once the most human and the most alien thing about the character.

    All this said, however, did that Master actually try to kill the Doctor here? The Doctor was transported to wherever Yaz went. Yaz wasn’t killed, she was actually transported back to the Doctor (and the Master) physically, at least, pending a DNA check which I’m surprised hasn’t been done yet, she wasn’t even harmed. She was taken to where she needed to be, apparently with the Doctor, actually with the Doctor and the Master. Within the Master’s Tardis, no less.

     

    #68799
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    If these light creatures aren’t Cybermen, or not quite, we know that as well as changing people’s DNA if they get hold of them, they can be used to transport people from the site of one of their ‘bodies’, to this weird place, and from there to the site of another of their bodies. So if they grab hold of you, you’re destroyed and replaced by a shell, if they walk through you, or surely, if you walk through them, you end up in that place, where you can be pulled out and transported in place of another of those creatures.

    Are you actually placed inside one of them, some kind of other dimension, but actually within them? I’m not sure, with the timing, the creature she replace could have been the one that moved her in the first place. But they seem like some kind of hive.

    Regardless, best plan seems to be, for the companions, to walk into the creatures if they’re still on the plane, and hopefully end up where the Doctor is now. A hard call for Yaz in particular, Ryan might be able to reassure her that they’ll all be together this time. The Master could have just had them killed the way the spy were. Instead he’s put them in a situation where there is only one way out – Yaz has already experienced it, the Doctor’s just gone that way. This would also tie into the theme of alone v together, better together (as a group) which has played in the background from the last season. And of course the Doctor being better with companions which I think has always been there somewhere.

    #68802
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Having read most but probably not all the posts I think I’ve collected some thoughts inspired by them.

    1. I think there is a good possibility that this is a Master from between Sims and Missy hell there could be more than one Master/Missy out there between them.

    2. I agree I don’t think they are repeating the Doomsday cyberman infiltration it would be piss poor writing from Chibbers to repeat a trop from another writer and although I’ve not been his greatest fan I think he’s too good a writer to do that. Personally I think these dimension hoping infiltrators are a new race.

    3. Could where the Doctor has landed be a prototype for Missy’s later attempt to create her Matrix like heaven, if so this could be more evidence for this Master being between Sims and Missy remember Missy the first time we saw her was more like the archetypal Master it was only later she became more “good” if she ever was

    #68803
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @devilishrobby oh she wasn’t good, but she built the cyber-army for him and referred to their ‘friendship’. She was less hostile to the Doctor, just as murdery to human beings.

    #68804
    RorySmith @rorysmith

    Also got an “Army of Ghosts” vibe on this one.

    #68806
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    @miapatrick that was why good was in “”. Yes she was nicer to the Doctor towards the end and yes she did eventually side with the Doctor at the end, but as you indicated it was in a very amoralistic and practical manner to the point it was difficult to see a difference between “good”Missy and evil Missy at times. The core self-centred egotistical character remained which has always been part of the core identity of the master.

    #68807
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @devilishrobb yes but the niceness at the end, the siding with him – that was the whole plan. Give him a Cyberman Army. That’s simply what she was up to. Not the kind of gift he would ever want. So still evil, but somehow kindly disposed towards the Doctor, which is the kind of change I’m talking about. Giving him the army was the idea from the start, not the result of reformation. That doesn’t occur till later. Even her sympathy over the death of his wife later on isn’t so much the result of mellowing, as the fact that River had Time Lord DNA, and she was able to respect that relationship more than she ever could with his human companions.

    So I’m probably not making myself clear. Missy starts out evil as ever, starts to change, grow, reform etc. But she starts out not exactly hating the Doctor in the traditional manner. She’s talking about friendship of more value than human conceptions of love, she’s not trying to kill him, she’s creating for him a deeply disturbing and horrible gift, because she’s the Master, and is disturbing and horrible, but doesn’t seem to hate him. Doesn’t want him dead. It’s almost like a cat bringing you a half killed bird. So it seems some kind of change has occurred, not reformation by any means, but in her attitude towards the Doctor.

    And it’s this attitude that enabled him to slowly get through to her, when he saves her life and keeps her prisoner. If it had been Simm’s Master in that volt, this really wouldn’t have happened.

     

    #68808
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Well, in the cold light of dawn, I am less sure about the Master as The Wizard of Oz, but I still feel that they are consciously drawing on allusions to The Wizard of Oz. To what end, I am not quite sure. If there is anything along those lines, I will have to wait until the next episode.

    Still, right or wrong, it is nice to have a story again that allows us to construct “theories even more insane than what’s actually happening”.

     

    #68809

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    Well. if the white ghosty things start singing Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead we’ll know you were on to something…

    #68812
    lisa @lisa

    Could it be Missy that  has taken over the body of this O ?   Cause if the Simms Master destroyed

    her ability to regenerate did he also destroy Missy’s ability to take over a body.   Didn’t that happen

    in BG Who?    I like the notion of  ‘Army of Ghosts’ Cyberman being the light creatures!   It fits into

    a nice story arc if Chibnall goes there.

     

    As  @blenkinsopthebrave has pointed out that it makes all the difference to get an  episode

    where you can theorize  on  it all again !!!   TBH didn’t expect it at all after last season.

    #68815
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @pedant

    Thank you, very droll. Let’s face it, you are a bit of a dick aren’t you?

     

    #68816
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    No m’dear @blenkinsopthebrave. He’s a massive bellend with no sense of when he has gone too far. I have awakened and any further infractions will be deleted.

    @pedant

    Reviewing your conduct towards other members has made me reach for the mind bleech. You really are an objectionable tit of the most massive proportions. I will take pleasure in deleting even the most innofensive post you make until you apologise to @whisht personally via PM or (preferably) make such apology in public.

    If you can make one of the most innofensive members of this forum tell you to go fuck yourself, then consider the advice carefully while staring at your cold-blank face in the mirror, you prick.

    #68819
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    And please @pedant.

    Don’t bother @craig with yet another complaint about me. Yeah, we know, you’re ‘special’. He’ll get the gist. As a wise man once said (it may have been @whisht) “go fuck yourself”.

    #68824
    syzygy @thane16

    Golly & heck & up with it all! We have some mods back!

    I’m seeing in my Netflix in box what looks like Dracula with 2 nuns? Is this the great Dracula of which you speak?

    I ask only because of the blobs of blood which looked especially suspicious -in a 16th movie of the Twilight Saga-type of thing – during the credits. I really didn’t want any Twilight drama!

    Back from NSW. 20 kms from where we were it reached 51 degrees in the shade. Double plus golly.

    Aussies are amazing: “yeah, mate, we’re gonna lie on some blow up beds in the middle of another mate’s dam. We got raw sausages which will cook automatically. Hopefully we’ll see you tomorrow, if we make it. We probly will.”

    @blenkinsopthebrave @janetteb no doubt you’ll recall the lilting tones of a “slow down time” way of speaking. As dry as the cinders & kindling around them.

    Tough in the face of actual hell. Never have I ever seen anything so horrifying. I saw racing fire, horses running for their lives, cattle being shot, whole towns I used to visit since the age of 5 are just gone. Some in a night. 300 full on properties in under 24 hours. Klaxons driven by fire fighters down streets at 3 am saying “go, now. You have 15 minutes.” They might, during  the worst of seasons, serve for 7 days but haven’t stepped down for 3 solid weeks. And they’re volunteers.

    Anyway, back to the fun and games. I haven’t seen Who yet, even. I completely forgot about it!

    Syzygy.

    #68825
    syzygy @thane16

    Oh mods. Triple apologies. I actually thought I was on The Sofa!

    I’ll  hobble t’way! ……

    #68826
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Oh my oh my just had a bit of a bonkers moment thinking back on the Masters statement and I want to just throw this out for consideration: what if Missy was not the Master at all but a Timelord imposter and knew both the Doctor and the Master well enough to fool them perhaps even the Rani playing some sick game……. nah they wouldn’t have done that would they

    #68828
    #68849
    syzygy @thane16

    Jolly awesome! Loved O. Had absolutely no idea O was He! Even with the flying building. And then “in the seconds  before you die, everything you think you know is a lie. Got you. Finally.”

    When we met Fake O I loved the slightly unhinged quality he had: mad scientist. Then the “lucky in love” to Yaz was slightly off.

    Rubbing hands with glee at part 2.

    #68850
    syzygy @thane16

    @phaseshift

    I’m not loving the new you, actually. Not at all. I thought, you know “friendly place.”

    What the heck’s happened?

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    I think there was some genuine confusion about the Wicked West of the West-type of thing. From what I read?

    #68851
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @thane16 it’s fantastic on re-watch. So many clues in retrospect, which is where they belong. The Fry character says ‘o’ when he dies. Well, it’s just a sound you might make when you’ve been shot in the head. O tempts Graham with his Doctor files (loved the first time round the comment about ‘inconsistencies’). O gravely needles the Doctor a bit when the aliens turn up ‘look what you’ve done, you’ve led them here. They’re after you’ in essence. Well it appears to be the case, and the former spy might be a little concerned at having his safe haven located. Why was O quite so paranoid, enough to set up all these traps. Why are his defence systems precisely that: traps? That happen to work on these creatures? Well, knowing about all the occurrences and invasions might make you a little paranoid. The alien code is in the same kind of form the Doctor and O communicate in – well, it’s an effective method.

    I think he fooled the Doctor because the Doctor is clever. She’s clever in a specific Time Lord kind of cleverness. It’s a bit lonely. She met someone else who seemed almost as clever. She was fooled for the same reason Twelve wanted to reform Missy. They want someone to talk to. They’re lonely being the only Time Lord. And frankly, compared to The Doctor and The Master, even the other Time Lords are a bit thick. And finally, he fooled her into a fake friendship because they were friends.

    #68854
    syzygy @thane16

    @miapatrick. Amazing really. I agree: loads of clues -even the unhinged quality, combined with “it’s very interesting but inconsistencies…” was loud and clear! Didn’t even think that far in…or off….or when…! Love what you wrote here:

    And finally, he fooled her into a fake friendship because they were friends.

     

    #69084
    Ollie14 @ollie14

    @winston

     

    i think you’re right Winston. In both instances you mentioned the Master did sort of redeem themselves. Which therefore suggests whatever has happened at Gallifrey could be one of the reasons why the Master so desperately wanted to kill off the Doctor. Having said that, the mannerisms of Dhawan’s Master seem to fit the narrative that he comes after Simms and before Missy.

    #69085
    Ollie14 @ollie14

    @miapatrick

     

    remind me again how they left it with Simms at the end of his original run? (end of time)

     

    Am I right in saying he returned to Gallifrey with the Time Lords. Does it mention in The Doctor Falls how he then go to the spaceship towards the black hole? I recall something about it crashing and him never being a good pilot.

     

    Dhawan’s Master has to be between Simms and Missy in my eyes. Surely you can’t go from the verge of conversion to how sadist Dhawan was. He was Simms-esque.

    #69086
    Ollie14 @ollie14

    Maybe @codystott, but I think Chibnall would be daft to create a Master from another Universe and not carry on or fit them in to the existing chain.

    #69087
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @ollie14 is he though? As @bluesqueakpip has pointed out above, hot camp want to kill the doctor Master (she didn’t phrase it like that) is always performing in front of at least one other person. When it’s just the Master and the Doctor it’s more on the lines of ‘how else would I get your attention?’ ‘Gallifry is destroyed’ ‘by the way it was me, I won’t tell you what I found out to make me do it, because I had to deal with finding that out on my own’.

    I’m personally torn between placing him between Simm and Gomez (to explain why Missy was so friendly towards the Doctor even before she started to ‘grow’), and after Gomez simply on the basis – again, as @bluesqueakpip pointed out – they tend to meet each other in order. I’d also point out that rather than kill the companions in front of her, he left them in an almost-but-not-quite impossible situation. I’ve said before the Master likes to play with his food, but here he’s jumping straight to ‘hello, I’m going to kill you’ before instead getting her transported off the crashing plane and not actually killing any of her ‘pets’ (as he’d see them).

    He makes sense as coming after Simm mostly because he’s so gung-go death to the Doctor angry at the moment – only he isn’t like that without other witnesses. He’s reaching out to her. Which isn’t at all Simm when he died. So the explanations are: what he discovered about the Time Lords has changed, somewhat, his attitude to the Doctor, and this is the Master just before Gomez, Or he’s post-Missy, and what he discovered has set him back a little, morally, though I’m not sure Missy was, by the time of her death, quite beyond killing humans.

    #69214
    Davros @davros

    @pedant

    And, of course, we know where Sacha Dahwan met the Doctor before…

    Mmm, could’ve be in Wired … 😉

    At the time, I thought they missed a quip when the Doctor rumbled O’s game:

    DOCTOR: No, no, no. I read your file. You were a champion sprinter.
    O: Mmm. Got me. Well done.

    O should have added, “YOU were always the expert on running.”

    #69299
    Ollie14 @ollie14

    @miapatrick
    I guess we’ll be in a better place to have this discussion post-series. Look forward to it! 🙂

    #69324
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @ollie14 me too – see you at the season finale! 😉

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