The Day of The Doctor – The 50th Anniversary Special
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Craig 12 years, 8 months ago.
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17 October 2013 at 02:36 #18609
@janette @scaryb, @phaseshift
Many thanks for the info on the 50th, and the kind words – good to be back.
I’m a bit north of Tasmania, on the mainland. Have you actually moved to Canada permanently? I’ve been to Vancouver a few times and really liked it. Your first winter is going to be a bit of a shock I think. Good luck though.
17 October 2013 at 02:47 #18610Another good post.
Options for Hurt Doc are:
1. Pre Doc 1
2. Between Docs 2 & 3
3. Between Docs 8 & 9
The clothing that Hurt wears would suggest 3. but I still think it will be 1. I think you are right that Moffat will not dwell on the Time War but go elsewhere, which effectively eliminates 3 I suggest. Actually I would really like it to be 2. but the redemption part of the Hurt Doc would have to involve Pertwee somehow, so it seems unlikely to me.
As regards the extra regenerations, wasn’t Tennant’s regen into the meta-crisis Doc specifically mentioned as not being a proper regeneration, in show?
But 12 Regens = 13 Docs, so Capaldi is the last, which doesn’t quite fit in with his plans for Doctor Who 2063 does it? Unless he’s going to address the regen issue in the 50th.
Moffat is a dear, isn’t he? Always messing with the fans.
17 October 2013 at 02:50 #18611Plus something @phaseshift has previosuly brought up, some fans don’t consider the first two changes to be regenerations as such as the term was never used at the time.
Unless it’s the old “Brain of Morbius’ problem again.
17 October 2013 at 05:18 #18612Another possibility for the Hurt regen’ is a time loop, within a regeneration, ie a paradox as has been discussed. If this were the case Hurt Dr could fit in anywhere because at the end the entire ‘event’ will be wiped and the Hurt Doctor will never have existed there for there is no extra regeneration and Moffat can bat the problem of the regeneration limit off to the next show runner. (Though I suspect it is a story element that Moff’ will really enjoy toying with and then demolishing altogether.) It is possible for this theory to work that the Hurt Doctor is brought into being by Clara and the GI interferring in the Doctor’s time line as the implications of that can be past as well as present and future. Having said all that though I think the Anniversary special will have to be a complete story, ie a film, rather than just a continuation of the previous series. Ah well. I do enjoy demolishing my own theories.
These days I tend to mistrust everything Moffat says. I think he is having a lovely time playing with fans, teasing, misdirecting, setting up false expectations, all so that he can really, really surprise us on the 23rd.
@whohar I assume you are somewhere in the Melbourne region then? @blenkinsopthebrave, you are brave indeed. You have gone from one extreme to the other. -40c I hope you have lots of winter woolies.
Cheers
Janette
17 October 2013 at 11:09 #18614Nice summing up of possibilities for HurtDr. Tho as well as @janetteb‘s timeloop theory (see also alt universe theory) there’s also the possibility of a post Matt incarnation, inc the Valeyard 🙂 Although I go back to the fact that Clara only saw the Doctor’s “eleven faces – all of them”. I think HurtDr is in his past, but buried deep in his memories (NiS). maybe what the HurtDr did is what led (eventually) to Trenzalore. In order to avoid that fate Matt has to revisit events in his past.
They have been teasing that Matt is “the Eleventh” throughout his run – which makes me deeply suspicious, LOL. But NotD hinted strongly he’s the last. Unless he can change something.
For various reasons – not least that there is now a whole new generation which has grown up with the Doctor, for whom Eccleston is a distant memory (wow!!) – think most of the story refs will be from AG Who. Much like NotD (I loved how knowledge and love for the whole show permeated that but detailed knowledge of its history wasn’t essential for enjoyment). And I agree that the 50th will be largely standalone. It’s a calling card for new fans, a trial for cinema, and a celebration for everyone. I’m excited about the extra minutes – Moffat generally does really well with a little extra time – eg Eleventh Hour and Asylum.
I agree that the 50th is likely to clear away old conitnuity problems like the 12 regen limit. It may set up new mysteries, but by the end it will be ready for the next 50 years (well, the next 10 at least, until it needs another reboot)
These days I tend to mistrust everything Moffat says. I think he is having a lovely time playing with fans, teasing, misdirecting, setting up false expectations, all so that he can really, really surprise us on the 23rd
I agree with that and I really hope he’s having fun with it after the awful time he had on Twitter. It’s thank to his and the Doctor’s habit of lying through their teeth that we have any chance of coming to episodes unspoilered.
17 October 2013 at 11:15 #18615Grovelling apologies for my inattention, oh intercontinental one. I thought you were still in the Qantum* Club Lounge but you have materialised in a different continent (I did think your timings were slightly different recently). So, from Pyroviles to Ice Warriors? (80 deg difference… that’s quite a leap)
*sic
17 October 2013 at 11:27 #18616Anonymous @
@whohar — good to see you back and nice summation of Hurt Doctor choices. I like the idea of a pre-Hartnell Doctor but think what with the images of him and the various small leaks that have managed to get out that it’s pretty much definite that he’s the Time War doc — whether that means aged McGann or an actual incarnation between McGann and Ecclestone.
Can’t help but wonder if Moffatt wouldn’t have been tempted to misdirect big-time and puff Hurt as the next Doctor all along and let Capaldi’s arrival slip under the net, but I guess it would have ended up being apparent after the end of Name of the Doctor. It would have been a nice trick to pull off. (Although maybe PC is a bluff and he’ll only be in it for one episode and there’s another Doctor waiting in the wings.
Nah, even I don’t buy that one.)
17 October 2013 at 11:34 #18617Much as I love the idea of sneaking in a new Doctor unexpectedly, I’d be gutted if PC was only the Doctor for 1 or 2 episodes. Althought Hurt would be a good substitute 😉
Given what I said above about the 50th being a calling card, I would love to see them sneak in a regeneration. (They can find a timeywimey way to still inc Matt in the Xmas story)
17 October 2013 at 11:44 #18618@scaryb — I agree. I’m really looking forward to PC as the Doctor. And I’m still pretty certain that they’ll be sneaking in a regeneration into the 50th special. Probably as the cliffhanger and with the Christmas episode being PC’s first episode. The stuff we saw being filmed could quite easily have been flashbacks — and interesting how little outside filming seemed to have been done for the Xmas ep. Just a few scenes in a playing field.
Actually, bearing in mind how close they will be transmitted together, I wouldn’t be that surprised if the anniversary ep and the Xmas ep won’t actually take the form of some kind of two-parter…
17 October 2013 at 11:53 #18619Actually, bearing in mind how close they will be transmitted together, I wouldn’t be that surprised if the anniversary ep and the Xmas ep won’t actually take the form of some kind of two-parter…
I was thinking that too. Incidentally I was trawling back through old posts on here and you had some remarkably prescient things to say way back in January re Matt leaving this year.
17 October 2013 at 13:49 #18631@jimthefish and @scaryb – I’m still somewhat suspicious that they gave Matt Smith permission for a new haircut, frankly. Okay, wigs. But there’s that line way back in Forest of the Dead where River talks about: ‘You turned up on my doorstep with a new haircut and a suit.’
And here we are with the new haircut. Which, by using an ‘old haircut’ wig, they seem to be busily trying to imply is not part of the plot. Really not. Definitely no reason in the world for the Doctor to have a very drastic haircut. Haircut? What haircut?
And then, if they follow that line, visit River for the last time before she goes to the Library and dies … in a very similar pattern to the Tennant Doctor wanting to see his old Companions, before he regenerated.
17 October 2013 at 13:56 #18633@bluesqueakpip — unless ‘new haircut’ is River’s euphemism for ‘whole new body attached to the haircut’ and that it is PC who says his final goodbyes to River. (Hasn’t Alex Kingston already been hinting that River might be back in Season 8?) Personally, I’d love to see how River interacts with PC’s Doc. (And does this mean that PC will be wearing a suit?)
17 October 2013 at 14:06 #18634@jimthefish – had it not been for the fact that Matt Smith went and got a new haircut – and you’re not allowed to get that drastic a haircut without permission, not when you’re the lead actor in a series – I would indeed have continued my assumption that she meant ‘new haircut and entire new body’. That’s certainly what I thought at the time; she was referring to another regeneration.
But now he’s got the new haircut.
Yes, fine, they could have said ‘hey, one more Special, we can manage a wig.’ But where’s the fun in that? (As River would say).
17 October 2013 at 14:24 #18635Oooh, what if the only way to get rid of Mr ‘I done some evil me’ Hurt Doctor was for 10 / 11 to merge with him?
That way, the Xmas episode is mainly Matt but occasionally morphing into one of the other doctors. A meta-crisis of some sort.
That way when it is resolved, he becomes……Mr Capaldi
(And you can make up some mumbo jumbo to give him back regenerations)
17 October 2013 at 14:30 #18636Plus something @phaseshift has previosuly brought up, some fans don’t consider the first two changes to be regenerations as such as the term was never used at the time.
To be fair, those people should be taken out and shot. Harsh, I know, but fair.
17 October 2013 at 14:49 #18637Yes, it is a permanent move. However, upon recently discovering that Who-friendly Australia is screening the 50th at cinemas throughout the country and Who-deprived Canada is oblivious to the 50th (even BBC Canada chose not to acquire Doctor Who as part of its line-up) I may be tempted back for a quick Who fix next month!
As for the question of were Hurt fits, I would rule out 2-3 for the reason that most of the audience are not familiar with BG Who, and it would take too much exposition and explanation. He could go with pre-Hartnell as it opens up all sorts of possibilities about sending the show off in a different direction, but even there, the Hartnell Doctor is not as loved and familiar to the mainstream audience the 50th is aimed at as he is to those of us on this forum. Which leaves 8-9 and the Time War. Or…something we just haven’t thought of yet.
17 October 2013 at 14:54 #18638Fortunately, the many trips to Canada over the years prior to this relocation means that the blenkinsop wardrobe is chock full of winter woolies! Of far more concern is the lack of availability of high quality Australian shiraz!
17 October 2013 at 15:12 #18639Plus something @phaseshift has previosuly brought up, some fans don’t consider the first two changes to be regenerations as such as the term was never used at the time.
To be fair, those people should be taken out and shot. Harsh, I know, but fair.
<splutters coffeee all over computer screen>
😆
17 October 2013 at 15:14 #18640Forgiven, my inattentive friend. While retirement is everything is is cracked up to be, and I heartily recommend it to all, there is the downside that the trips to the Qantas Club Lounge will become rather like the lost Hartnell and Troughton episodes–wonderful memories but sadly lost in time.
I really like your notion that the 50th is a trial for cinema. Whether Doctor Who would work outside of a TV format is something I an not sure about–although I do confess a fondness for Peter Cushing’s rather daffy “Daleks Invasion Earth 2150AD”.
Indeed, given all that has been said about the relationship between the BBC suits, the showrunners and the audience, I think there is a real question about what sort of format season 8 might take. What started out as a weekly 25 minute show in 1963 has already changed its format considerably. Who knows where the format might go in the future.
17 October 2013 at 15:17 #18641Been wondering about the haircut too (for the reasons @bluesqueakpip says) – ooh, a River farewell – that’d break hearts… OTOH River can have her farewell with Matt, but it doesn’t mean she can’t come back for series 8. A younger than in the Library River could be off having adventures with Capaldi even as we speak.
🙂
I was going along with your theory till I got to
(And you can make up some mumbo jumbo to give him back regenerations)
Sorry, “mumbo jumbo” is just not good enough for around here 😉
17 October 2013 at 15:39 #18642I wasn’t necessarily thinking of it moving away from TV format (tho it’s definitely a way to try it out), but a cinema release is a great way to attract new viewers (cf Marvel’s Agents of Shield) – well, assuming cinemas pick it up of course – shame on Canada. Lots of sympathies to you, though I seem to remember that you had cracked the illicit pleasures of black-download sites.
Shifting formats – re starting off 25 mins, weekly – not only that, they ran for 40+ weeks per year (till Pertwee, when it was cut to 25). According to wikipedia there’s been a total of 798 episodes to date (if you inc the TV movie). That makes Xmas special the 800th episode. And series 8 #1 will be #801.
Maybe the delay for the 8th series is down to creative reasons (inc Moff & co busy on other things inc the anniversary) – I’ve decided not to get ARSEy about it. If we have to wait a little more time in order for them not to rush it, then it’s not that bad a thing*.
Best of luck in your hunt for good Canadian reds.
*(Note to Stephen M – See? we can be reasonable – Can we have the anniversary trailer NOW? Please??!)
17 October 2013 at 15:42 #18643@scaryb – Hahahahaha, I was tempted to write “Timey Wimey Wibbly Wobbly” but I had to go to a meeting
17 October 2013 at 15:44 #18644“Timey Wimey Wibbly Wobbly” is a totally acceptable explanation – “mumbo jumbo” is just too vague
😆
17 October 2013 at 15:58 #18645It is not so much the delay in season 8, as the form of season 8. Might they decide to have a VERY few number of 60-75 minute shows instead of a season as we have been used to? The suits at the BBC might reason that they could make it more financially viable that way and pick up extra revenue through DVD sales if each story was released independently of each other. Who knows? But one thing is for sure. They are not releasing the 50th in the cinemas as a favour to the fans, but are seeking a broader audience for the future of the show. How they package that future in 2014 and beyond could have real implications for storytelling possibilities.
[Note to self after reviewing my posts above: retirement is no excuse for typos!]
17 October 2013 at 16:19 #18646P.S. unfortunately, I wouldn’t have a clue about accessing black-download sites. Which is a real cause for concern as 23 November approaches in the Who-barren wilds of Ontario!
17 October 2013 at 16:34 #18647Who knows what the suits are up to? The Beeb is under massive pressure to justify the licence fee. I’m sure the team would argue strongly for the ongoing marketing power of 13 episodes. I wouldn’t mind the episodes being a bit longer – even the extra 5 mins of Asylum made a huge amount of difference in the pacing. However, as long as they’re aiming for an international market I think we are stuck with the 43 mins length (which is better than 25 mins!), and hopefully a series of about 13 episodes. But I take your point. Being a Doctor Who fan is to be best pals with paranoia!
That link I posted above re wikipedia entry for DW stats – is quite interesting re audience figs. Hartnell started it off with just under 8m, rising to 10+ in Season 2, Troughton was just under 7m, Pertwee era increased it to 8+m, Tom B kicked it up to regularly 10+m, Davison was consistently around 7m. AG DW looks pretty consistent on 7+m (with Tennant’s exceptional S4 at 8m). Although the figs for the specials kinda scupper my first paragraph argument above, I’d still argue that with audiences of 7m weekly, that it makes sense to stick to a run, for higher profile (and to keep those DVD sales going).
PS I’m sure @phaseshift or @craig could recommend sites for viewing outwith the usual places!
17 October 2013 at 16:41 #18648Posted for @htpbdet:
I have been forced to do a lot of thinking recently and wonder if the answer to Moffat’s plans about the 50th are not in keeping with his usual preoccupations: people out of their time line and paradoxes.
We have all been focussing on which Doctor Hurt is – well, I have been anyway. You may all have worked it out I have been off the radar for so long.
But it occurs to me that Moffat can have his cake and eat it too … Hurt can be both Doctor Zero (pre-Hartnell, making Hartnell officially the first regeneration) and the Doctor who stopped the Time War. Indeed, he could be the Doctor who starts it and then, with Smith and Tennant, seals it or sets it up so McGann/Eccleston/Clara can seal it.
This way, Moffat can tell a story about why the Doctor is the Doctor and move on from the Time War – especially if, say, Omega was somehow involved in trying to unseal the Time War or something like that. (A nice throwback to Three Doctors and somehow fitting given there are three different Doctors here)
This idea works equally well if Hurt is actually the “old man” that the GI referred to in Name, the one that died to shut down the TARDIS and set up the possibility of the creation of Clara – by dying to create the time track, that final Dr allows the possibility that his earlier self can enter the time stream and change time – resetting things so that the last becomes the original (Dr Zero) after correcting whatever he did which Smith so clearly disapproves of.
It would all work better if somehow Tennant’s Dr (which would have to be the alternative Universe one in this scenaro) fused with Smith (gave him his body in much the same way Tremas was taken by the Master in Traken and perhaps fitting because the Dr gave life to the copy anyway using his own regenerative power) for the regeneration into Capaldi, possibly even with Hurt – in which case all the possibilities of the Dr, the last, the first and ones in between, became as one – thereby overcoming the 12 regeneration rule. This would, effectively, make all the earlier incarnations part of an aborted time line … but they would still exist there.
But for Tennant’s Dr to make that sacrifice, presumably Rose would have to die …
17 October 2013 at 17:07 #18650@scaryb The Eleventh Doctor and the Moffat era actually has better viewing figures than that: iPlayer. iPlayer isn’t yet counted; they haven’t figured out yet how to account for people using it for a repeat viewing. But the Moffat era started at the point iPlayer was really beginning to take off – and they know some episodes have had over 2 million downloads. If you add on the iPlayer stats, you’re generally running at 8 million +
So if you look at Series 7B, it looks like Nightmare in Silver and Crimson Horror did very badly – in fact, about half a million people seem to have shifted platforms. The lower the overnight/DVR figure, the higher the iPlayer downloads. Both NiS and Crimson Horror add on 1 1/2 million viewers, bringing the figures back to that ‘around 8 million’. Episodes that have higher overnight/DVR have lower downloads – about 1 million or a bit higher.
The thing the team are struggling against is that Doctor Who is probably the most timeshifted (pun intended) programme in the BBC’s line up. Only 62% of the audience watch it when it’s broadcast. Everyone saves it for later. No wonder the start time wanders around – the suits know it doesn’t matter when they broadcast it.
So I think the thing with the 50th is they might be curious to see if people aren’t bothered about watching it on the telly; so long as they can watch it. Will they go to cinemas to watch it? Will they download it? Are they playing it on their iPad the next day? Or will everyone be passing round the dalek shaped biccies and watching it at home with the kids?
17 October 2013 at 17:14 #18652@bluesqueakpip – thanks for the iPlayer stats. I’ve been worried for a long time how they don’t get folded into the greater viewing numbers.
You mention ‘downloads’ and I may be being overly semantic, but I just watch it on the BBC site – which I guess counts as ‘streaming’ not downloading? Are the figures you’re quoting including both methods of watching iPlayer?
I agree that it’s hard to sift out repeat viewings on iPlayer – unless they have a massive database cross-referenced with IP numbers, which wouldn’t work anyway as so many people (as I do) get a new IP number each time we start a fresh connection to the internet. I can see how headache-y this is for the number-crunchers.
Re your last paragraph – the 50th anniversary special is ‘event TV’ – I think The Suits would be silly to glean anything informative about how people view it and try to extrapolate that onto a regular episode in a regular series.
17 October 2013 at 17:35 #18655*Innocent face*
(Re viewing stats – I’ve been banging on about timshift since shit-for-brains started trolling on the Guardian. Apart from a brief peak in the run up to DT’s exit, 8m-ish has been the mark, but made up differently. As Moffat says, the BBC knows very well how many viewers they have)
17 October 2013 at 17:48 #18656@Shazzbot – the BBC term is ‘requests’ – so I think they include both streamers and downloaders in that.
Agreed that the 50th Anniversary special is event TV – but AG Who has a history of ‘event TV’ becoming a fixture. The Christmas Specials; the first one created especially to introduce David Tennant. Then next year, as RTD loves to tell us, the suits were ‘so, what are you planning for the traditional Christmas Special?’
As he said; traditional? They’d done exactly two Christmas Day episodes in the entire history of the programme, and one of those was back in the 1960’s… The 50th Anniversary would be a perfect time to test the waters for the traditional Doctor Who 3D movie. You know, the one they have every year? 😉
In support of that particular mad theory, I note that David Tennant is frantically trying to build up a US profile, Matt Smith is looking to move into films, and Karen Gillan’s playing Angela in Guardians of the Galaxy. Peter Jackson has expressed an interest in directing Who, the latest director announced is best known as a film director – and Steven Moffat was moving into film scripts when he got the call for Who.
17 October 2013 at 17:53 #18657Re viewing stats – I was suggesting they were remarkably consistent, and even in this time-shifted multi-channel world, they compare well with previous years (and without taking the iplayer stats into account). And that’s just UK figs.
Although… there’s a rumour that only about 70,000 people watch DW regularly – but we all watch it at least 100 times!!
(I think there’s no doubt that its audience, especially globally, is expanding exponentially since 2005)
17 October 2013 at 18:13 #18658@htpbdet (with thanks to @Shazzbot for posting)
Nice theory – and good to see the meds are kicking in well 🙂
(And no, we’ve not worked out who HurtDr is yet – but I think it’s now down to about 6 possibilities)
A holy trinities of 3 Doctors (merging into 1), hmm? Father, son, “ghost”…? I like how you work in the previous (BG) specials – am I right that all previous multi-Doctor stories have involved Time Lord intervention to avoid a paradox? All the Christmas and Easter references throughout Moff’s run might still mean something then? (And balances @bluesqueakpip‘s 3 women/fates theory)
Hurt as Doctor Zero* means we’re at Valeyard stage already (I bring it up since he/it was name-checked in NotD); I like meta-Ten morphing/fusing with Eleven. But you still need to find extra regenerations surely? Or is the combination of 3 Doctors becoming 1 enough to reboot the regeneration cycle?
*Prisoner Zero????
17 October 2013 at 18:27 #18659@bluesqueakpip And yes your post about Ben Wheatley directing some of series 8 is very exciting. (Annual 3D movie – i’m holding you to that!)
17 October 2013 at 21:27 #1866017 October 2013 at 22:29 #18661@scaryb Thanks for the welcome 🙂
@bluesqueakpip Sorry to disappoint you but we have already seen the last day River and the Doctor spent together. It was in that Minisode ‘The last night’ as in contrast to the Minisode ‘The first night’ where he first picks her up from her prison (Stormcage?). As much as I would love to see that it is just not in the cards. He dressed up in a tux and all … She said’he is going to take me to the Singing Towers, he has been promising for ages’
@all nice theories out there with fusing and all… Not quite sure what to make of it yet myself.
Are there things you definitely expect from the next episode? I for one really need a better explanation for the whole Silence thingy…. ‘Silence must fall when the question is asked”they believe it (the future of the Doctor) must be averted…’ So they wanted to kill him so he does not die later? What for havens sake happens inside the time stream that is a so called ‘endless bitter war (…) against you.’ The name of the Doctor was a real let-down in that direction. I just hope he was doing an understatement and that Steven Moffat will give a more sufficient and satisfying explanation. I also expect the Doctor to get out of his own time stream without creating a Timeloop. I’d rather he has to race time in order to escape… Maybe with Clara already on the other side. Will the Hurt Doctor follow them or keep standing there looking in one direction. Maybe whatever he did has paralyzed him so that he somehow locked himself somewhere without regenerating? Splitting a part of him with that machine that made ten human? Maybe he banned this part of his personality?
Maybe Hurt is the mental lock in nightmare in silver? A constant inner monologue with the part he abandoned? Maybe that is why Clara could not see him inside the time stream?prisoner of himself? The episode is said to be very emotional, right? Maybe he has to come to terms with himself and his capacities?Curious what you might definitely expect from the new episode!
18 October 2013 at 01:08 #18662@timeloop – you’re not disappointing me: I’ve seen the minisode. And the future Smith Doctor we see is certainly intending to take River to the Singing Towers. Though he does say ‘spoilers’ when asked by his younger self if this is the last time he’ll see River. 🙂
However, I’d point out that it ain’t over until the Towers sing. They’re not at the Singing Towers in Last Night; they’re on Caldoron Beta. And this is the Doctor and the TARDIS we’re talking about; the fact that the Doctor definitely intends to take River to the Singing Towers doesn’t mean he’s actually going to get there. After all, he meant to take Clara to Vegas and ended up in a Russian submarine. 😀
He’s especially unlikely to get/have got to the Singing Towers if the TARDIS knows he has/had a different haircut when he takes/took River there…
18 October 2013 at 01:22 #18663Could he be a younger version of the Hartnell Doctor?
@steve-thorp – apart from being older than Hartnell was when he played the Doctor, yes. They’re roughly the same height, same eye colour and don’t look too dissimilar.
That said, given the well known ability of the Time Lords to regenerate, I suspect the rule is that unless the new actor is made up to look like the old actor, a different actor = a different regeneration. Even if the regeneration isn’t specifically mentioned.
I agree with @htpbdet that the Hurt Doctor can be both Doctor Zero and the Doctor who stopped and/or started the Time War. We know the Time Lords brought the Master back. They seem to have brought Rassilon back. What’s to say that they couldn’t bring a particular incarnation of the Doctor back alongside the current one; the incarnation, say, before he got all those funny ideas and nicked a TARDIS?
The only times to date we’ve had more than one Doctor, it’s been the Time Lords wot done it.
18 October 2013 at 01:53 #1866418 October 2013 at 02:52 #18665Hurt as Doctor Zero* means we’re at Valeyard stage already
Are you saying Matt is the Valeyard?! I confess to not seeing anything of the original Valeyard but that would be an interesting twist.
And this:
you mean he’s Hurtnell…?!
Oi! Appalling puns are my territory.
It’s good to see the bonkers theories are still going strong and that @pedant hasn’t mellowed.
@janetteB
Melbourne it is.
18 October 2013 at 05:25 #18669Ok yes I’m up ridiculously early , long story which I may or may not bore you with…
Anyhows’ s
Hurt Doctor is Hartnell before he came to Earth so he is HurtnellI Doctor
bobbins and timeywimey 🙂
Sorry if this has been put forward before
Need more coffee
Rob
18 October 2013 at 08:11 #18671Check out 2 posts above yours 😉
You don’t need more caffeine, you just need to get up earlier, LOL.Have a good day in the mud 🙂
18 October 2013 at 09:44 #18676OooppsImitationa is the best form of flattery 😉
The mud todayis mainly on my boots, trousers and hands, if the rain comes as forecast the mud will slowly envelope me till I resemble the creature from the black lagoon
😀
18 October 2013 at 09:51 #18678@bluesqueakpip that would not sit well with me. It just fits to the mood in the episode and I remember Moffat saying he would not want to show that actual bit because who knows what River does to the Doctor when they are alone… And there are children watching.
Of course I can be proven wrong but I hope not. I myself would love that scene but I grudgingly have to agree with Moffat. Instead, I would like to see them getting closer over time from Rivers point of view. The first time Matt got her. The second time PC? The third time they mention a different adventure when the Doctor was still Ten? The second time we saw River the Doctor knew more than he could have done from that one meeting in the library- so did Tennant bump into her? What made him run from her?
Cheers,
Timeloop
18 October 2013 at 10:26 #18679Re: River- this is probably quite a tiresome suggestion, but do we know, for an absolute fact, that River really died? We know that she said and ten believed that the way she is supposed to have died wouldn’t allow for regenerations, even if she still had them, but to be fair we’ve seen the Doctor die, his body burned, and it turned out not to be true. And we do know now that there has been a flesh version of River, as a baby.
I think, sad though it is, it would probably be better dramatically etc, if that was the farewell to River. But, well, Moffat lies…
18 October 2013 at 11:49 #18684@miapatrick – or changes his mind.
I’m still kind of hoping for my bonkers theory that the Smith Doctor’s hints in Name of The Doctor about retiring are hints that he’s hoping that a copied virtual version of himself can be uploaded to the Library. While we know he is going to regenerate again (or do we? – duh duh DAAHHH!), he himself doesn’t appear to be planning another regeneration.
@timeloop – I think Moffat’s a bit nervous about actually showing them alone together in the TARDIS because he knows perfectly well what they get up to when they’re alone (err… and not either dealing with hearts-rending grief or just about to go out for a night on the town). The latest minisode had the TARDIS bits in voice over -and you can certainly guess why from the dialogue. 😈
I agree that that particular minisode works very well as a coda to the story of River and the Doctor; it remains to be seen whether it was a slight piece of misdirection.
19 October 2013 at 08:55 #18743@htpbdet‘s point that the Doctor can be both zero and the Time war Dr has a lot of merit. (Nice to have you back with us in spirit if not quite in person.) It would be rather nice to tie BG Who to the time war. It would really link the two parts, BG and AG which is what one would hope for from an anniversary special. It can easily be done in such a way that no knowledge of BG Who is required other than the number of regenerations and I think even the most casual viewer is aware of that.
I would love to see R.S interact with P.C. Doctor but I fear that we will only see her in ghost form from now on. It is clear that being dead is not going to slow her down overly.
Cheers
Janette
19 October 2013 at 12:40 #18755@miapatrick You say
but do we know, for an absolute fact,
Ha! There’s no such thing in Dr Who! (And I still cling to my theory that River can pop up anywhen, so long as she’s younger than she was in the Library)
19 October 2013 at 13:40 #18762@ScaryB- but I would suggest, even older. Think of what we know: That the library is, if not a fixed point in time, a fixed point for River and the Doctor, so he possibly needed to think, the second time he met her, that she had died for him.
We know that fixed points can’t be re-written- but they can be subverted. So long as the relevant people think someone has died, they don’t have to die. we also, I think, know that the flesh can share the feelings of the people they are copied from, probably enough to create an electronic ghost. And the Doctor has already met a flesh-River. And when the Doctor wanted to know more about the flesh- was it just because of Amy’s copy? or was there something else in his mind?
(Sorry, this is really off thread. Is there a River thread?)
19 October 2013 at 15:00 #18765@miapatrick – well, there’s the Companions thread, but it’s currently named ‘Past & Present’ so to accommodate River theories, it would have to be renamed ‘Past, Present & Possibly Future’ which is a bit unwieldy. 🙂
Even dressed as Topic Dalek, I think we can keep ‘future River theories’ here, because how do we know she’s not in the 50th? 😀
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