The Interstellar Song Contest

[Craig @craig Emperor]

For those who don’t know, tonight is the real-life night of “The Eurovision Song Contest”. It will be broadcast right after this episode in the UK. A load of European countries, plus some odd ones like Russia, Australia and Israel, all enter some cheesy songs and the public of all the countries get to vote a winner.

The winner is usually rubbish – but it did give the world ABBA, who won with “Waterloo” many years ago. These days there’s a lot of political voting. And no one in Europe likes Britain after Brexit, so the UK song usually gets hardly any votes.

Anyway, this is “The Interstellar Song Contest” and somehow The Doctor’s quest to get Belinda back home leads them to a space station hosting the famous song contest. And a harmless night of fun soon becomes a battle to survive.

This is written by Juno Dawson, an English author of young adult fiction and non-fiction, often featuring LGBTQ+ characters. She is Doctor Who’s first openly transgender writer. Dawson wrote the BBC Sounds spin-off podcast “Doctor Who: Redacted”. She has also contributed audio plays for the Big Finish “Torchwood” range. Dawson was also scheduled to write an episode for the second series of “Class” before it was cancelled.

It is directed by Ben A Williams, a BAFTA-nominated director British director. His debut feature “The Pass” was nominated for Outstanding Debut at the 2017 awards. He has since directed TV episodes of “Humans”, “Baghdad Central”, “War of the Worlds”, “Sherwood” and “Six Four”.

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

Oh my oh my oh my well she’s baaack. But is she fighting with or against the Doctor. I liked the episode and I have to say multiple schools got part of their wishes granted.

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

The Red Nails seem to have it. Well, they have the Toy Maker’s gnasher. Still a dubious character invented by a pair of third string writers. Never heard anyone calling for the return of Mestor, have we?

Can I point out that the ‘no-trousers’ thing obviously only applied to The Doctor’s bigeneration…

But again, a hugely enjoyable outing. So much going on. The expelling of the audience into space was chilling. Mavity gets its customary mention. The Hellians were like insufficiently azure Andorans. The Corporation has to be Villengard hasn’t it? Has it acquired Harmony Shoals in a leveraged buy-out?

But Doctor… genocide is triggering, but I ain’t really a sadist bro? Shortly after Kate going amoral, this is clearly significant, like someone is pushing buttons? With profit in view? I wonder, in passing, if Conrad’s rejection of ‘Reality’ is prophetic: does he know The Doctor has been deceived? So why did Raniflood let him out, and where to?

Will leave the Trinity stuff for the spoiler page for now. Just like to raise The Oct 5th conundrum again. 3 eps only…

The Mind Robber.

The Great Architect.

The Hand of Omega.

Now off to check eps from May 24th

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

There is 1 ep and 1 ep only, previously first broadcast on May 24th
Just 1

The War Games ep 6: the War Chief has a processing machine which controls peoples’ minds. The Doctor tries to steal it.

Obviously a significant if brutally truncated colourised version was recently released.

The Hindu male equivalent of Rani would be Raja… yes, that’s King but would it also translate as ‘War Chief?’ Don’t think he rocked red nail polish tho, even in the colourised version.

Also noted for the first appearance of multiple Time Lords.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

First impressions: mixed feelings on this one.

The Doctor turns vicious, Susan appears (in order to call him back from the dark place he is inhabiting?). Well, OK, I suppose.

Hellion psycho tries to murder the audience, but not the Corporation ( poor Freddie Fox is in danger of being typecast if you recall him in Slow Horses).

We are still in a Mavity world where Time Lords bi-generate. Indeed, there seem to be a lot of Time Lords milling around , when the Doctor claims he is the last of his kind.

I suppose we will have to wait for the next episode to see where all this is leading. But that means I will have to watch the appalling Conrad again.

As I say, mixed feelings.

 

[dwnerdfrommars @dwnerdfrommars]

So, that was a crazy episode….wow

We got introduced to the aliens who lived on Hellia (I don’t remember the name exactly)

And, oh my gosh we had The Susan Foreman and…. my theory was correct.

Mrs. Flood actually was the Rani. Or A Rani, since its a bi-generation.

But, my other theory is how Belinda has the same last name as a character in the Sarah Jane Adventures, the last name Chandra and the first name Rani. RTD is definitely cooking some unfinished plot line he’s wrapping up. Or is it just me….

 

But wow, that was a wild episode! I cannot wait for the next two episodes!

And also, I honestly personally think Season 2 has been better than Season 1.

How about you guys?

[dwnerdfrommars @dwnerdfrommars]

(also I realized this when The Story and The Engine came out and I was watching some old Sarah Jane Adventures episodes)

[WhoHar @whohar]

First thoughts: visually very pleasing, and you could see where the Disney money was spent.

Lots going on again but it felt much tighter an episode than last week’s.

The minor characters were well-sketched out and felt like actual people rather than the archetypes of last week.

I’m not sure the dark Doctor moment was a good idea. Torturing a person is so out of character, I found it a bit jarring.

Freddie Fox and Varada Sethu both excellent I thought.

I enjoyed it overall. Some other random musings:

Belinda mentions her parents again. This is significant I think. Belinda is Susan’s daughter?

The ep had a bit of Utopia / The Sound of Drums / Last of the Time Lords vibe.

Lots of “borrowing” of ideas:

Hard light hologram – Red Dwarf

Hologram trick – Luke in The Last Jedi

The singer – Fifth Element

So, they mentioned a Delta Wave. Daleks in next ep? I didn’t see a trailer for it.

Good to hear the cloister Bell again. And Dugga doo would probably win Eurovision.

[dwnerdfrommars @dwnerdfrommars]

@blenkinsopthebrave

 

I agree. I had mixed feelings too. I did like that Mrs. Flood was the Rani, but they could have explained a bit more, personally.

Like if the bi-generation thing’s so rare why did it happen again?

[dwnerdfrommars @dwnerdfrommars]

@whohar @blenkinsopthebrave

 

I know, the dark Doctor thing was kind of not a great idea. It seems like the Doctor hasn’t been himself in some episodes too, by the way. Because I thought the Doctor hates when anything dies?

I was a bit confused, definitely.

[winston @winston]

I just watched and I was wowed , as in “its Susan,Wow”  and ” The Rani? Wow” and the Doctor is so pissed, wow.

The death toll on this one seemed very high but of course the Doctor saved everyone. I think everyone lived in the end although the Kid might not feel grateful to the Doctor for that.When the roof opened and all the people got sucked out I heard the Mister say “holy sh#t!” from the couch. I just said “wow”. The Doctor ,who thought that Belinda was lost along with all the others, got angry, ice in his hearts. He went berserk.

The acting in this was great and I felt we learned a lot about some of the characters like Mike and Gary. I love Mike and Gary. Cora’s story was a harrowing tale of actually mutilating herself to hide and survive. The Hellions had a right to fight to live but in being willing to kill trillions of innocent people they became the same as the monsters they were trying to destroy.A lot of stuff to mull over and I will definitely watch this again before next week.

Susan and the Rani….What?

I really enjoyed this episode, it felt very Who.

stay calm and carry on

 

 

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@whohar

I don’t think Belinda is Susan’s daughter. In last week’s episode she mentioned to the Doctor that her nan took her to visit India, so she could get a sense of her heritage. But what I find interesting about Belinda is she only ever refers to her parents. Not to friends, not to co-workers, not to relationships (let’s pass over the problematic Al). Why just the parents?

you could see where the Disney money was spent.

I confess that to thinking the large amount of money RTD2 has access to is more of a problem than an enabling factor. Could an episode involving rebels seeking revenge against the  colonialist destruction of a people’s culture and population have been done with minimal expenditure? Of course it could.

To use just one example, towards the end, the Hellian singer is given the opportunity to sing her inspiring song that was banned by the Corporation. Think of the scene in “Casablanca” with Humphrey Bogart, where the singer in the bar breaks into La Marseillaise in front of the German officers and everyone in the bar sings with her, in tears of of pride. How much did Casablanca cost to make, I wonder? Certainly not as much as this episode. Which will continue to be remembered?

 

 

[WhoHar @whohar]

@blenkinsopthebrave

I don’t think Belinda is Susan’s daughter. In last week’s episode she mentioned to the Doctor that her nan took her to visit India, so she could get a sense of her heritage.

That’s a good spot. Maybe Susan chameleon arched her when the rest of the TLs were being killed off, and then dropped her into another family, who adopted her?

That shot of all the people being sucked into space was stunning, but I take your point that money alone won’t save a poor script. Bit harsh comparing any iteration of Who with Casablanca, but I do see where you are coming from.

@dwnerdfrommars @winston

Yes plenty to enjoy for me, although some of it didn’t really make sense, if you think about it e.g. how did the Earth host Rylan get there if the Earth is gone, how did all those people survive when the deep cold of space kills a TL, how did a Delta Wave transmit out when all other signals were blocked, why did Mrs Flood suddenly become so subservient, why did the Doc think of Susan now? But I just allowed myself to get swept along.

I guessed the singer was a Hellion quite early on, and I do wonder if it was a commentary on people having to hide their true identity, something that the writer likely has real-world experience of.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dwnerdfrommars @blenkinsopthebrave @whohar @winston

OK. It wasn’t perfect. Very few Who eps are. But it worked and looked great. Personally, I’d prefer references to higher brow sci-fi than Ref Dwarf, but the use of tropes that aren’t subject to fridge logic is quite clever. On the other hand I wonder if people are running scared of the thought of another RTD season end spectacular? OK this could get messy.

The Utopia/Drums/LotTL is not a bad shout. Actually, if not for Dobbydoc ascending as Messiahdoc that was one of RTD’s best. Belinda as the anti Martha perhaps?

I suppose I have come to terms with The Return of The Rani. Is there a plural for Rani? The occasional characters were more than ok, not the pathos of Voyage of the Damned nor yet the bathos of Orphan 55. Rescuing 100,000 people… yeah difficult. And probably time consuming. Similar to 3 people returning all the way from the End of the Universe, a very long time indeed, on a shonky Vortex Manipulator. And no-one dying. Maybe Jack did a few times. Hell, maybe this mavity thing does more than make things come together. Don’t ask me what. And you would expect medical techniques to have advanced. Also, nice to see vocational professionals being put to good use.

Heroes losing their cool is clearly going to be a theme. The Doctor definitely lost his, a bit like 10 before Donna stepped in. Is Susan going to actually reappear or is Susan his conscience? I always thought the woman in End of Time was Susan too.

If a ‘male’ Rani is a Raja what does the etymology tell us? ‘War chief’ does work. Using VR as an experiment to make an army could be Raniesque or even Divisionesque. Can we now ignore the death particle/‘I wrote this in crayon’/demise of the Time Lord farrago?

Also there is a link to the saffron crocus, apparently. NOT a poppy, so maybe that’s a tenuous link. Then there is passion and greed, which could put us back in erm ‘snake’ territory. No, not given up on my theory about the critter from The Well just yet. If you were using VR to build say an army or a weapon… just like The War Games… might someone else, unbidden, be waiting in the wings to benefit?

So, has Floodrani been the one setting up this VR? Or just wondering how to hijack it? Or is she trying to shut it down?

Yes, good season so far. I’m quite looking forward to seeing Conrad again.

[Charlie Cook @cookgroom]

@whohar how did the Earth host Rylan get there if the Earth is gone

I thought that, and indeed how did graham norton get there – the scavenged from the rubble line was a bit thin

As for the delta wave, was that not going to be broadcast via the song contest link?

They certainly pressed the constant mavity lines hard…

[Charlie Cook @cookgroom]

My other thought was how little computers had progressed in the later centuries 😀

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@cookgroom

obviously it took a while for the computer industry to get back on its feet post Butlerian jihad

XD

[dwnerdfrommars @dwnerdfrommars]

I have a question: is it possible Belinda Chandra is related to Rani Chandra?

Just wondering…

 

It seems like her character creation was a reference to the Rani in TSA.

And plus, we haven’t seen any of Belinda’s parents yet.

What if Rani Chandra happens to end up being Belinda’s mom?

 

This finale is going to be absolutely a must-see these next two weekends.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@dwnerdfrommars

I guess anything’s possible. However, if they are trying to encourage new viewers to the show, I doubt they’d introduce a character from a spin-off that even diehard Who fans didn’t really watch. It was a big enough leap introducing the Rani I think.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dwnerdfrommars

Rani Chandra IS a remarkable… incidence?? It can’t be a coincidence because it’s all out of Russ head.

I suppose either Rani could regenerate as a nipper and get chameleon arced, then sent back to 2009? 1993? If we do ever meet Belinda’s family watch out for fob watches.

I also previously pointed out that it’s odd the Amy’s best friend Mel should be a nipper in the late 90’s, when WE know the same time lady regenerated in 1969 Washington DC. But that would be kerrazy!!

Or… I believe there are other Chandras in Russ’ writing. Must like the name.

[WhoHar @whohar]

Bonkers Theory Klaxon:

In the scene with the Doc in space when he uses the confetti gun to fire himself back to the station, the following can be seen in really large letters on the side of the gun:

DMC88

Could this be a big clue?

D(oc) MC(oy) (19)88

Season 25 (in old money) was McCoy’s 2nd and started on Oct 5th 1988 with Remembrance of the Daleks.

And with the mention of the Delta Wave in this episode (per Parting of the Ways), can we expect a return of the Insane Tanks?

[janetteB @janetteb]

@whohar I was just thinking that the Interstellar Song contest mirrors the Reality TV Planet at the end of RTD’s first series and it is more than time for a return of the pepper pots.  i like your theory.

@drwhonerdfrommars and @ps1l0v3y0u I suspect that RTD is just recycling the name but it would be brilliant if Belinda does turn out to be connected to Rani. Probably not her daughter as I think she would be too old. It can easily be written in a way that does not require familiarity with SJA though to those who have not watched that series I do recommend it. Some of the stories were a bit “naff” but the core characters made up for that. It is really a bit of a comfort watch.

cheers

Janette.

ps I am cheating as I have yet to watch the episode. We are a bit behind but I have never been concerned about spoilers and enjoy reading the discussions almost as much as watching the episodes.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar

DMC88?? Like it. If for no other reason than the truly risible ‘The Final Frontier’ was 89.

Remembrance of The Daleks is a Oct 5th episode. As I keep pointing out. Two stories later we get ‘Silver Nemesis’, working title ‘The Harbinger!’ RotD also features the Hand of Omega.

Another 5/10 ep was Paradise Towers… big baddy being The Great Architect, who sounds a bit O’Megarish to me. Manuel: “Are you The O’Mega Man?” Chicken headed mook: “Are you trying to be funny?”

Unless the real connection is Anita Dobson channeling Richard Briers in full scenery chewing mode??

[WhoHar @whohar]

Thought I’d do a recap ahead of the two-part finale. I’ve reached back to the start of the 60th Anniversary specials, so there will be some stuff in here that has been mentioned and recapped before.

What needs clearing up:

1. Where is Doc 14?
2. Who is Ruby’s father, the infamous (Alf) Garnet(t)
3. What is the V’Linx? Is it more than a virtual link?
4. Is Belinda / Bel(l) / Belle special in some way?
5. What, and who, caused the schwup?
6. Why can’t The Doc and Belinda get back to May 24^th?
7. Are The Doctor and Belinda in an altered / alternate reality?
8. Are they in the Land of Fiction? Who is the Story Master / Mistress?
9. Is there some issue with the LoF computer or the Story Master / Mistress?
10. Are they seeing the effects of the Toymaker’s jigsaw making of The Doc’s past?
11. Who is The One who Waits?
12. Why did Mrs. Flood release Conrad at the end of Lucky Day? Is Conrad significant e.g. another god, or a TL?
13. Was Conrad the trigger for the Doc to go looking for Belinda?
14. Why were not all the Doctors represented in the montage in The Story and the Engine?
15. Why did Ruth Doc appear in flashback in TSaTE?
16. Why did a Space Baby appear in TSaTE?
17. Who is The Meep’s boss and is that the same as Rogue’s new boss?
18. To whom did the mysterious red-finger-nailed hand belong, which picked up the gold tooth the Master is supposedly trapped in?
19. Why does the TARDIS keep making a groaning noise (she did it when Rogue came on board, for example)? Is some kind of temporal paradox event disturbing her?
20. Is Susan just in the Doc’s head, or is she going to return in person? And why now?

[WhoHar @whohar]

What’s been observed / themes

1. The Doctor cries. A lot. Are the tears “fuel” for something.
2. Belinda seems to know more than she should e.g. what a Tardis is called, possibly references to her home planet of Gallifrey…
3. Lots of wordplay e.g. Al = AI, SueTech = Sutekh.
4. Stories about stories. And stories leaking out into the wrong order.
5. The stories in this season bear a lot of similarities to stories in RTDs first Who run.
6. Conrad will return – will he be in the same point in his life, or close to (at) his age at death?
7. The Doctor has been ineffective in saving people.
8. Mavity. Lots of mentions in ISC
9. Salt at the end of the universe which means fantasy / myth / something else is/are bleeding into the universe.
10. 2nd Doctor mentioned in passing a couple of times: the Yeti in Lucky Day, and the 2nd Doc was first to appear in the montage of TSaTE.

 

Bonkers Theories

1. Mrs. Flood is using the Doctor to help her get back to Earth, using the V’Indicator.
2. Belinda is another of the Timeless Children / TL.
3. Belinda is related to Space Baby Poppy.
4. Belinda is related to Susan
5. They are in the Land of Fiction / Mindrobber connection.
6. The Doctor and Belinda are in an alternative universe
7. The Doctor and Belinda are trapped in a machine
8. The Doctor and Belinda are trapped in a game
9. The Doctor and Belinda are in a simulation
10. The Doctor is part of a wider Pantheon cf. Cartmel.
11. An AI-generated reality, based on the Doctor’s life / Doctor Who the TV Show (Meta)
12. Return of AN Other Timelord e.g. Omega
13. A Godlike creature pulling all the strings.
14. The Doc will regenerate, possibly into Ruth Doc.
15. DMC88 and Delta wave may point to a Dalek return?

[WhoHar @whohar]

@mudlark @janetteb @juniperfish @ps1l0v3y0u @blenkinsopthebrave @cathannabel @scaryb @devilishrobby @dentarthurdent @krathoon @miapatrick @cookgroom @bunface @orionhunt @fozzyb @bobbyfatv2 @spacedmunkee @thane16 @craig @whisht @winston @dwnerdfrommars @translatorcircuit

See above

Apologies to anyone I’ve missed off the list.

As to what’s going on, I think my Omega theory from last season may be due a dusting down, perhaps in alignment with the Daleks.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

For decades people speculate about the return of two characters in particular to the show, then both turn up, one after the other (and one in duplicate) in the same episode – like London buses as one commenter observed in t’other place. It will be interesting to see what RTD does with the Rani, but I doubt it will be subtle.

It takes nerve, I think, to place an episode in the context of a light hearted, frivolous spectacle modelled on the European Song Contest and aired on the same evening as the ESC, then use that setting to tackle the serious and all-too-topical subjects of racial – or in this case species prejudice and bigotry, exploitation of colonies and peoples, environmental destruction in the name of profit, and terrorism, but it was done pretty successfully and indeed movingly at times.

For the third episode in a row we have an instance of someone who has been hurt setting out to hurt people, in this case on a galactic scale, but the Doctor isn’t having it; he’s been there after all. Countering wrong with another wrong is never justified and no excuses. We’ve seen him righteously angry before but never vindictive as far as I can remember, and it is to be hoped that the ice in his hearts melts soon, because vindictive doesn’t suit him at all.

It wasn’t entirely clear what Susan represented in her appearances. It seems most likely that she was an image rising from his subconscious at critical moments to give him the boot in the rear he needed. If it was telepathic communication,  how did she know where he was and what he was doing? She did say ‘find me’, which suggests she may feature in one or more future episodes. Does anyone know if that is the case?  Carol Ann Ford is two years older than me and if she has the stamina to resume the role in a more active fashion I’m full of admiration. Or perhaps she will regenerate.

P.S.  I wouldn’t have taken Belinda for the kind of girl to be overtaken by giddy, gushing fan worship, but then what do I know? People are full of surprises.

P.P.S  The ‘science’ elements in the episode were as usual somewhat hand-wavey at times, but everything more or less made sense in the context, so no complaints.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@whohar

Interesting lists to ponder.

Observations 2-4: I’m still not convinced that Belinda is anything other than she seems – unless she’s been chameleon arced almost her whole life. I suggested a possible explanation for her recognition of the Tardis in post 77377 in the discussion on The Well, and I took her ‘Then let’s go home to Gallifrey’ as meaning ‘Let’s go to [your] home Gallifrey’. At the time she said it she didn’t seem to know anything about the planet other than the name, which he had just told her.

Bonkers theory 1: Mrs Flood/the Rani has been popping up in widely varying times in places so must have some form of time/space travel.  If she needs the Doctor and his vindicator to get back to earth it is presumably because she has been experiencing the same difficulties as he has, the cause of the difficulty being the destruction of the Earth, but maybe it’s because the Vindicator is the only means of pinpointing a specific time just before the destruction for the purposes of carrying out her (evil?) plan. I’ve been assuming that she plays a part in the destruction, but maybe she wants to join forces with the Doctor to prevent it; her attitude towards him has all along been ambiguous. Saving the earth would either mean altering the course of history in a very big and obvious way, which is supposed to be the ultimate no no or, more probably, exiting the alternative universe they currently seem to be in (see Bonkers theory 6 which I think is highly likely).

Bonkers theory 11: There certainly do seem to have been a good many meta elements in the current series so far.

Bonkers theory 14: I wish!

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar @mudlark

One of the criticisms of Remembrance is that The Doctor commits genocide when he uses The Hand of Omega to destroy Skaro.

I may have to investigate Paradise Towers again… I only know of Brier’s extreme and non kosher hammery by repute. But by the sound if it there’s something interesting there. Does that explain Anita (Dobson’s) general weirdness? Not the lovely Anita from The Sandringham.

Other theories now in abeyance or in need of reinterpretation … who has a name like Roger ap Gwillem? Is he just the Norman Bastard version of Harold Saxon? Or famous spear crazy hat = Rassilon?

V! V’indicator, V’linx, Villengard, the (norse) wild garden… = The Wild Wood… = Into The Woods?? Which is basically Stephen Sondheim in the Land of Fiction. The Valeyard is certainly known for messing with reality in The Ultimate Foe… the (french) old man.

REG’s face in the scan. We know Clara got involved but what exactly happened to Simeon? The snow and the tears would seem to echo The Snowmen

How could the Beatles and Sutekh BOTH possibly look so disastrously stupid? If Sutekh isn’t actually a god, what kind of pantheon do they want us to believe in?

Harbinger was the first draft of Silver Nemesis; The Cybermen being the Nemesis of The Time Lords.

If 5th October = one or more of the episodes of the Cartmel era/The Mind Robber, does 24th May = The War Games, recently restored? Why go to all this trouble? To make a weapon or an army? Sound like a corporation that might do better to grow bananas?

Space Babies may or may not be Daleklike. But one of them was called Poppy, the spooky kid from Nigeria. The poppies of Hellias.

The golden tooth. Why? No really, WHY? And why should Max Capricorn also have one ‘that really does THAT’? ✨

Lastly… is this good art? Because we’re beginning to sound like a bunch of conspiracy theorists in cyberspace. Well, I am.

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

@psl0v3y0u regarding of your comment about the criticisms of Rememberance but the hand of Omega appeared in  Silver Nemesisduring McCoys tenure. It was during the time of the so-called Cartmel Plan which was taking the show in the direction that the Doctor was something more than the usual Timelord and had Sylvester portray the Doctor in a darker and sometimes menacing light and it actually fore-shadowed elements of what became the time war. Personally at the time I wasn’t aware of the Cartmel plan but had the feeling they were working upto a big reveal that the Doctor was much older and was possibly one of the ancient timelords as McCoy portrayed the Doctor especially later in his tenure with a more dispassionate Doctor much like the early HartnellDoc.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@devilishrobby
Remembrance: The Hand that killed Skaro was definitely Omega’s… though I admit I’ve made a similar mistake in the past. And there were crypto Mosleyites in the early 60’s Britain. 2 stories later, in Silver Nemesis, a statue of living metal no less, made by both Mr O’Mega and Razzy Lon (who may or may not also be Rog Williamson), caused some upset in 1980’s Windsor, though this time the James Bond comic strip fascists were shipped from South America. By helicopter I think!

But yes. Cartmel had a plan. We found out about it during the interregnum, RTD added the Time War. Then Moff gave it a cuddle, before Zchib vandalised it. Or he just couldn’t handle the pressure and ran round the town naked. In a manner of speaking.

It makes sense to have a plan. Or we might end up with Bobby Ewing stepping out of the shower. In a manner of speaking. And maybe we will yet, but it’s not for want of trying.

Temporally non linear and practically immortal life must be a challenging write, especially after 60 years of nonsense continuity, even if you’re an incredible DW auxiliary sub edding machine like Russ.

Plans are better than no plans. And here we are!

[Whisht @whisht]

Bit late but…

Blimey.
Initially I really disliked the Doctor’s vindictiveness and torturing.
On second viewing I merely find it really really out of character.
Maybe his bifurcated character has been Vindicatored.
TBH – I’m also not convinced by Ncuti’s acting of being angry, but hey ho.

Overall I liked this episode.
Tonally it really whiplashed (Whoplashed??) but that’s ok.
I don’t really watch shows that Rylan is in, but I thought he was excellent.
Allowed the script to poke fun at himself but more importantly, he acted as himself. Which few celebrities are able to do. Even Graham Norton wasn’t really that good at being himself (it’s hard as a character).

It does seem that Mrs Flood did need the Doctor to get the last reading from the Vindicator for her own needs.
But what those are, we’ve yet to learn.

Everyone else has said everything else, but far better than I (and @whohar – what a list!!!)

[WhoHar @whohar]

The Season 2 / 15 / 41 Finale Theory

I thought I’d try and guess how the two finale episodes are going to turn out by tying together some of the story elements from the last two seasons. I did this for the last finale and quite enjoyed it although, unsurprisingly, none of it was correct. And yes, it does involve Omega again, so turn away now if that’s not your thing. Anyway, here goes:

Omega has been trapped for millennia in an antimatter universe but waiting for a chance to escape (he is The One Who Waits / The Boss).

When the 14th Doctor sprinkled salt at the edge of the universe it weakened the boundaries between our universe and the antimatter one, and also led to various anachronisms such as mavity, goblins and bi-generation.

The altered universe now allows Omega’s anti-matter presence here without being annihilated but, while he can view and influence events in our universe, he is still unable to cross-over. Omega thinks there may be a solution to this on Gallifrey but, finding it destroyed, he scours our universe for any remaining TLs, finding only the Doctor and The Rani.

He then instructs the Rani to conduct experiments to try and recreate the TLs in order to start a new Gallifrey, and this results in the Space Babies. The Rani captures the Doctor and splices some of his DNA into Poppy to see if she can force a regeneration.

The Rani, who had been tracking the Doctor throughout all his adventures to ensure she can cross the schwup and get her Tardis back to May 24th>, then opens up the pan-Universal boundary by setting off a series of Delta waves at locations all over the Earth. This allows Omega to enter our Universe, but the Delta waves begin to destabilise the planet resulting, ultimately, in the schwup and the destrruction of Earth.

While UNIT attempts to stop the Delta waves, The Doctor escapes the Rani and confronts Omega, managing to weaken him by making three wishes (as the Doctor finally realizes this is allowable in this reality). Omega attempts to defend himself and alters our Universe by manipulating the timelines using the Hand of Omega (which the Rani had previously intercepted on the way to Skaro).

This sends both the Doctor and Omega through a series of fictional / alternate universes and, as a side effect, causes Poppy to be transported across the Universe to the TC Portal, where she is found by Tecteun, thereby closing a time loop.

The Doctor manages to defeat Omega, and sends him back to his own universe. The timelines start to correct. The Rani jumps into her Tardis and disappears. Mrs Flood is left outside the Rani’s Tardis and she fades away.

There is then another wheezing-groaning sound and Susan steps out of another Tardis. She turns to Belinda, says “hello mum”, and opens a Chameleon Arc. Belinda transforms into a TL / (not Jenny that’s going too far). Her first words are something like “The gravity seems a bit off”. confirming that the universe has been reset to pre-salt settings. In Chiswick, Doc 14 disappears.

The Doctor, his body damaged by the battle with Omega, collapses with Susan and NotJenny next to him. A solitary tear rolls down his cheek. He says “A tear Sarah Jane, No don’t cry, while there’s life… No, wait, that’s not right.” He starts to glow “See you babes.”

He begins to regenerate…

Fade to titles.

 

I knocked this up in about 15 minutes, so it’s probably full of plot holes, but when did that ever stop Who, eh? I’m not naive enough to think this will happen but I have hopes that I might have a couple of things correct(ish) this time.

Anyhoo, brace yourselves my fellow Forum members, and we’ll see what happens on the 24^th.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@whohar

Brilliant!

Whatever actually happens cannot be as stupendously excellent as what you have outlined.

Are you available to take up the position as the next Showrunner?

You certainly have my vote.

[dwnerdfrommars @dwnerdfrommars]

@whohar

You need to be the next show runner after RTD

Seriously, your a genius.

[dwnerdfrommars @dwnerdfrommars]

@whohar

You know this entire theory seems so good it should be the finale.

I guess we will have to wait till May 24th.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@blenkinsopthebrave @dwnerdfrommars

Are you available to take up the position as the next Showrunner?

I’d love to write an ep at least. I’ve had a go but it’s much harder than it first appears…

@ps1l0v3y0u

Is there a plural for Rani?

Best joke I’ve seen regarding this (from t’other place): “Well it’s good to have The Two Ranis back on the BBC on a Saturday night”

(this joke might not work if you’re not from the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Ronnies )

[dwnerdfrommars @dwnerdfrommars]

Here’s my take on the finale:

I think we may see how The Doctor and the Space Babies lore connects in some way. Also Captain Poppy has been popping up this season twice as a character and a name (the Poppy thing in the Interstellar Song Contest and the girl seen in the Story and The Engine). What if Poppy is somehow connected to Susan or Jenny, the Doctor’s Daughter?

There’s also a rumored regeneration in part 2 that was mentioned in a recent reliable leak that has been right so far. I’m not sure that’s confirmed, but it does seem odd considering some others are saying he won’t regenerate or bigenerate. So, these reliable leaks have actually been quite true and we did get the Rani reveal, like these leaks said, in episode 6. Who’s leaking this stuff is 100% getting fired from the BBC.

 

Also, Conrad HAS to have a connection to the Master somehow.

Considering the master was grabbed by a mysterious hand at the end of The Giggle, it looked like the new Rani’s hand.

Or what if he’s the rumored God of Stories, and he’s apart of the Pantheon? (although that goes out the window when you realize he had a childhood and met the Doctor as a child, so he may be a normal person entirely. Except he did read a Doctor Who book in promo art. )

 

Interesting….

This finale will definitely be way better than Empire of Death (I hope).

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

This season has been better, though eps 3-6 from last year were very good, and 1-2 only slightly weird with good bits.

There does seem to be hints of Omega and possibly Daleks.

I’m not what you do with The Daleks post Rusty The Good Dalek or Clara The Almost Dalek. Don’t want think about Zchib in that respect. He seemed to wheel them out when it all went wrong and everyone laughed at t’floox.

Omega. The Three Doctors was the first multidoc story. Troughton winding up Pertwee was fun. And The Brig declaring the Antiverse was Norfolk was droll. Otherwise well ‘Zaphod’s just this guy you know…’

What is Omega for? He’s an anti character. I prefer The Rani, who was only invented when they thought they’d run out of ridiculous things to do with Anthony Ainley. Let’s face it Kalid from Time Flight was the antimatter of dramatic persona. Don’t get me started on Arc of Infinity.

Similarly salt at the edge of The Universe… this is post mavity. The Star Beast and his boss exists before that departure. Something changes between that and Wild Blue Yonder. I’m not sure if, from that point, any of it is real including the salt. But the virtual reality seems to be exploring the history of the Doctor. That narrative COULD include Omega but it will logically be a VIRTUAL Omega.

If this all becomes inchoate at times (the questionable stories) then this is very reminiscent The Ultimate Foe, or the virtual nastiness of The Deadly Assassin that made Mary Whitehouse smoke at the ears. The Matrix is the virtual record of all reality but can be distorted, most famously during Trial of a Timelord.

Lots of V’s in this arc. If you wanted a Great Architect for your new reality or a maybe reconstructed Gallifrey, what better than a Great Intelligence. Simeon entered the Doctor’s time stream to defeat him and was thwarted by Clara. But what if he WAS The Doctor, ‘the amalgamation of his darker sides’: the crazy 6th doc; the second doc who briefly became an Androgum; murky Seven who goes where Four feared to tread and blew up Skaro… thereby starting The Time War; The War Doctor; slightly psychotic nine and ruthless 10?? Now 15 is getting sadistic. Never be cruel…

Ruby’s snow and 15’s tears.

So on that basis The Ranii may not be creating ‘The Fiction’ but trying to stop it, like The Master proving an unlikely ally in The Ultimate Foe.

Also Rani Chandra. It is an amazing… incidence. How old would Mrs Flood have been in 1969? Could Ranirani get chameleon arched as a baby and sent back to 1993? Could Floodrani similarly turn up in Leadworth in 1989 and get adopted by the Zucker family? The Rani is supposed to be a ‘Deca’ like The Monk, The Master and The Doctor but Cartmel rewrote that last part and the Zchib went and blew it sky high, much to Cartmel’s disgust.

What if, post Rani Chandra, she regenerates as someone loud, proud and male complete with natty facial hair, and goes back with some SIDRATS to make the perfect army?

Obviously that’s not all going to happen in the finale.

And why The Golden Tooth ✨?

[WhoHar @whohar]

@ps1l0v3y0u

salt at the edge of The Universe… this is post mavity. The Star Beast and his boss exists before that departure

Ah, yes. I was thinking of updating my Finale missive anyway, as I’d spotted a couple of things I’d change for clarity, and also a couple of minor errors. But I don’t have the time / energy, and it’s just for fun, so I’ll just handwave-and-vibe it away by saying Wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey 🙂

Apparently, RTD has said that he considers the Two Ranis as a single entity, and we know Conrad returns, so there must be another significant addition to this story. No idea who that could be. But your golden tooth may make a re-appearance potentially.

I do wonder if Doc 14 will make an appearance though. I know Tennant’s stated that he is unlikely to return for some time but y’know, misdirection and all that. I do think there will be a regeneration though.

[Whisht @whisht]

Hi all,

I cannot compete with the bonkerising here. It’s excellent and I really haven’t been keeping notes over the seasons!
:¬D

However a thought.

I think we agree that GatDoc is in some sort of alternative Universe.
Does this alternative universe have it’s own Doctor?
If not, might it need one when GatDoc (inevitably) returns to ‘our’ universe?

Could the bigenerated 14 step into the breach to be this alt-universe’s Doctor?
(spin-offs across the multi-media-verse galore!).

[Whisht @whisht]

Other thought(s).

I really hope Belinda is not ‘special’.

In the Barber’s chair, The Doctor told a story of a ‘normal’ person, because it was extraordinary. It was a story from Belinda.
The Doctor loves ‘normal’ people because they are special and extraordinary.

My last thought before running away is that the series have been gamey-wamey as much as timey-wimey.

If someone says “O! Game!” then the Omega fans can claim their anagram prize…

:¬D

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@whisht

I really hope Belinda is not ‘special’.

As do I. If you recall, the Doctor scanned her DNA, so unless he was lying through his teeth, we can hope that she is regular Belinda.

p.s. Mrs Blenkinsop and I watched the very first Who story “An Unearthly Child” last night. It was brilliant. It brought back memories for me of watching it as a nipper all those years ago. It was also a masterclass on how to captivate an audience with a minuscule budget.

 

 

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@whohar

The chief problem I have with your proposed scenario for the finale is that it’s an awful lot of material to cram into two episodes, and this is a series in which, as several people have observed, there have already been episodes which might have been better developed over more than 50 minutes. I agree also with @whisht and @blenkinsopthebrave that I would prefer that there were nothing special about Belinda. Otherwise brilliant! We’ll know in a few hours, so let us hope the reality doesn’t disappoint.

P.S. On the subject of Belinda, despite what I have just written I can see potential for timey wimey development in her relationship to Mundy Flynn (Boom) if anyone were prepared to expand on it.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@whohar and everyone – thanks for all the ace bonkerising! 😀

And apologies for my absence on here, been working away from home and only just managed a proper binge catch up of the last 3 episodes. Twice!! And a catch up of the thoughts and theories here. I especially liked the Story And the Engine which has hung about my head a lot, and Interstellar Song Contest paid off on the second viewing – I think the layers are in there from early on about the Hellions, terrorist motivations etc, and also the Doctor seems genuinely shocked at his own behaviour when Belinda pulls him up on it).

Not a lot to add, except to concur about the alternative universe and that we should be looking at the whole RTD2 tenure as one season. So I expect callbacks to the specials, especially Wild Blue Yonder. Maybe the return of the Star Beast? I like @whisht‘s thoughts about a sneakily filmed extra 14 appearance.

This whole season has been about stories within stories, truth, lies, alternative facts, created worlds, meta references. Who do you believe and how would you know. And yes, lots of Mind Robbery vibes.

Not a massive Rani fan but I love Archie Panjabi, so I’m hopeful! She’s a scientist known for unscrupulous research methods, but if she’s behind the destruction of the earth why does she need the Doctor’s vindicator to get back to 24th May.

 

 

[ScaryB @scaryb]

More thoughts about meta things – it’s not just in story that these have been cropping up. The whole timing of the broadcasts reinforces this sense of an alternative universe. Despite it having been filmed in 2023/24…

IGN has an interesting theory about RTD trolling the shows own fans in real life with the #RIPDrWho hashtag 😉  My pet bonkers theory (which I admit is more of a wish list) is that they’ve somehow sneaked in filming of a whole new series (with Gatwa) under the radar and that all the hints about the show going on hiatus are fake news! (I know, I know, but a girl can hope 😛 ). Sadly I think it’s more likely we’ll end on a regeneration scene… but into Who? Ruth Doc? Or leave it open for someone else to pick up the reins.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

Seconding @whisht and @blenkinsopthebrave (and others) about hoping that Belinda isn’t “special” especially after all the hoo ha (Who ha??!) about Ruby Sunday’s mum being “normal” and the doctor’s story being about Belinda because “normal people are just as exciting as stories about Weeping Angels, Daleks and Cybermen”.

Speaking of which… what are the chances of the Daleks making a comeback, do we think? If RTD is really going out after this series, would he actually leave them alone? (Reality War… cf Reality Bomb which was one of RTD1’s inventions (maybe just coincidence)).  The Rani is more associated with the Cybermen but I personally think they’ve been done to death (during 13’s stories) and need a wee break.  It’s been nice to see a run of stories which haven’t called on either.

And also, great to see Susan back (for no other reason than that every other available original main character has been brought back?!). I do think we’ll see her in at least one of the finales – but is she in Wish World, or Reality?

So – we have 2 Ranis and their spin doctor (Conrad) – or is Conrad the storyteller?

 

[WhoHar @whohar]

@scaryb

specially after all the hoo ha (Who ha??!)

Oi! 🙂

Good to have you back.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@whohar Mwuhuhuh 😀

Good to be back. Thanks again for the lengthy and wonderfully detailed list (Surely if you make a list long enough, you have to have some “hits” 🙂 )

[janetteB @janetteb]

I echo previous posts Nice to have you back @scaryb

Have just watched this episode at last. I think I was putting it off because I expected it to be a bit cringy. for me eurovision has zero appeal and I expected the S/O would really dislike it. It was surprisingly good and even he agreed that it wasn’t in the least bit “cringy”.

Nice to see Susan finally referenced. She has to be somewhere. How does she manage, being a time lord down on Earth. Eventually she must regenerate. That is surely going to be problematical. I think there is a lot of story potential there, no doubt being tapped into by Big Finish.

some random thoughts no doubt already commented on above, bi generation is being firmly established. we are still in “mavity” universe though Belinda did seem to be unfamiliar with the term, & this feels a little like the ending of Turn Left. The earth is missing once again.

Lastly I do like that RTD is pulling out characters/enemies from old who that have been gathering dust for decades. there is a lot of story potential that has been overlooked in favour of an over reliance on the same old villains, ie cybermen, daleks and sontarans.

cheers

Janette

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