The Next Doctor (2)

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    Anonymous @

    @diasho — just to echo what’s been said above.

    I’d recommend you stay away from the RSC, as @bluesqueakpip says — some of Shakespeare’s plays are even written with the intention of the same actor playing multiple parts — King Lear, for instance.

    I really don’t see this is a problem The Colin Baker example is a good one (possibly the first time ‘Colin Baker’ and ‘good’ have ever been put in the same sentence by me). But another one is the excellent Jeeves and Wooster series of the 80s, which had multiple cast changes over the four series, and with the same actors suddenly playing completely different characters within the space of a few weeks. And it really wasn’t confusing at all. I quite liked it in fact and thought it gave the show an oddly ‘rep feel.)

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @bluesqueakpip @tardisblue @jimthefish

    I think it was @arkleseizure in the first part of this blog that raised the point of just how often entire plot lines used to revolve around a member of the TARDIS crew meeting a convenient doppelganger to enable a plot. I think the lesson is – all of space and time, but so few faces to go round. So let’s play

    Who’s who?

    Spot the difference in Enemy of the World, as Doctor 2 meets Salamander.

    A bizarre Two Doctors episode, or is Doctor Six about to shoot Doctor Five, before pressing the button to vaporise him in Arc of Infinity. A story that is actually twice as long as Fires of Pompeii, but can feel twice as long as Children of Earth.

    Doctor Who and the Two Romanas? Just before she became Romana II, Lalla Ward was in the preceding story The Armageddon Factor. Romana I apparently liked the face of Princess Astra.

    It’s a taste she probably got after visiting Tara, in which she was a dead ringer for Princess Strella in Androids of Tara. In a story which also featured android duplicates of Romana and Strella, that was an awful lot of Mary Tamm for your money.

    Nyssa also turned out to have a co-evolutionary developed doppelganger in Black Orchid.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    AG Who has generally specialised in identical relatives. We’ve got Gwyneth in The Unquiet Dead


    And her identical relative from an ‘old Cardiff family’, Gwen Cooper.

    Gwen Cooper

    Of course, we’ve also got Adeola Oshodi in Army of Ghosts

    and her identical cousin Martha Jones.
    Martha Jones

    They didn’t bother explaining that Amy Pond descends from an ancient Roman family, though the Romans were her favourite topic at school. This was probably because her identical relative was hidden under so much make up you couldn’t tell who she looked like anyway.

    But it’s apparent that the Sontarans aren’t the only people in Who to reproduce via clone batch. 🙂

    ScaryB @scaryb

    Not to mention the 1st and the Abbot of Amboise (The Massacre)


    ScaryB @scaryb

    Not my comment on the pic above, but wholeheartedly agree with it. Especially because it left you wrong-footed a lot of the time, not knowing which side you were supposed to be on.


    ScaryB @scaryb

    And The Massacre also features Anne Chaplet and (at the end) new companion Dodo Chaplet, who despite it being heavily suggested were related, looked nothing like each other at all! <looks nervously over shoulder for the topic dalek 😉 >

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @bluesqueakpip @scaryb

    You did have to love the identical cousin thing. Even in actual rare recorded cases of two identical twins marrying two identical twins, the kids were very different. 😀

    And an excellent bowl by @scaryb with The Massacre. Completely forgot about that one.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    You did have to love the identical cousin thing

    @phaseshift – to be fair, they’ve only ever used the ‘identical cousin’ gag when it’s a meeting with another character who might be expected to notice that these two people with different names are strangely identical. 🙂 It was only mentioned for Eve Myles when her Gwen Cooper character came video-screen-to-face with the Doctor and Rose.

    It had to be dealt with immediately for Freema Agyeman because she was playing Adeola to the Tennant Doctor in Army of Ghosts and then Martha Jones to the Tennant Doctor three episodes later.  Okay, there was the series break in-between, but that still must be some kind of record.

    If they bother to mention it at all for Peter Capaldi, they might have his Doctor regenerate, stare at the mirror – and then ask Clara if she thinks he’s got a Roman nose. 😀 Unless Moffat’s got a cunning plan, I think they’ll ignore Frobisher; that character really only interacted with the Torchwood team (and anyway, he had a totally different accent).

    Arkleseizure @arkleseizure

    On the subject of doppelgängers, I was wondering how many people agree with the idea that Chancellor Goth was one of Time Lord tribunal that sentenced the Doctor in the War Games? I have to say I personally like the idea, even though you obviously can’t extend it to any of Bernard Horsfall’s other characters!

    Arkleseizure @arkleseizure

    @scaryb: agree wholeheartedly about the Massacre: probably the only time I’ve watched a reconstruction without feeling cheated because the story is just that good (although Big Finish did a typically fine job). William Hartnell is superb as the Abbot, and drives home that the famous Hartnell line fluffs were mostly a part of the First Doctor’s character. I could rave about the Massacre all day: it’s a masterpiece.

    wolfweed @wolfweed
    DOCTOR WHO: Christmas Special Trailer VFX
    Fan rotoscoping…

    Arkleseizure @arkleseizure

    @arkleseizure: not Big Finish, Loose Canon. Minor brain malfunction there.

    janetteB @janetteb

    Love all the dopplegangers. Agree once again with @bluesqueakpip. There might well be a casual Roman reference which will more than suffice but as the actor is playing a different character I don’t really feel that it is necessary. Torchwood, (thank goodness) is not Dr Who and given that it became something that most of us would prefer to forget, I see no need to reference it. When Gwen Cooper appeared in Dr Who Torchwood still showed some promise and the reference to her family background was a nice touch. I felt that they would have been better not highlighting Martha’s identical cousin though. Her previous character was minor and the double casting would have been easily overlooked.

    I haven’t seen The Massacre. I have only tried watching one of the reconstructions but found the sound quality really let the story down. I am not sure if it was done by Loose Canon.



    ScaryB @scaryb

    @janetteb @arkleseizure

    re the Massacre – I’m relying on nearly 50 year old memories (fortunately more reliable than my more recent ones haha) with a bit of prompt from wikipedia (to paraphrase Troughton’s Dr – I have a jumble of old Dr Whos sleeping in my head).  I’m afraid I find the recons a bit frustrating (tho kudos to the creators for trying. Mostly!). I’d be interested to see any that Arkleseizure or anyone recommends tho. (Meanwhile there is a very small spark of fantasy that lives in hope that the 102 missing episodes will indeed be found 1 day 🙂 )

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    The nerd3 interview featured Moffat discussing RTD theories about Capaldi’s previous Who roles.

    (I think I’ve mentioned this recently, but here it is again for those interested…)

    RTD (On John Frobisher) 12 minutes in on Children of Earth  Declassified.

    ”I like to think that he’s a long lost descendant over two thousand years of the man that the Doctor saved from Pompeii. And actually it’s just time catching up, coz actually the whole family line gets killed. It took two thousand years  but Caecillius’s relatives died in the end.”

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Here’s another bit of Capaldi artwork…


    DickieGarvey @dickiegarvey

    Hi everyone what are your thorts on the next doctors costume

    I had a mental idea of a red velvet suit with a cravat and a trilby dont ask me where that came form but hey.

    oh and a cane in certain episodes for whatever purpose he may require it

    Anonymous @

    @dickiegarvey – you’re right, we should also be theorising not just about the plot points of the 50th, but what the heck will the costume department drape over Peter Capaldi?

    Does your red velvet / cravat / trilby combination come from your impression of Peter Capaldi as an actor?  Or,  in opposition to what you’ve seen so far in AG Who?  (black leather bomber jacket, pinstriped suit with Converse trainers, dickie tie with tweed jackets and teddy-boy boots)

    Ooooh … a cane.  I’m instantly thinking ‘sonic cane’.  Sonic screwdrivers are so last season.   😀

    DickieGarvey @dickiegarvey

    A combination of both Capaldis personality combined with the change from AG doctors costumes.

    A sonic cane well that would be a turn up, how about a slot for the screwdriver,

    I imagine a more dignified but excitable doctor

    really looking forward to finding out how they get the idea of a reused face into it all, my current opinion is he has choice out back into his regeneration.


    thommck @thommck

    Welcome @dickiegarvey! A Sonic cane would be rather nifty @Shazzbot although maybe slightly impractical when running down corridors!

    One thing that has struck me about the artwork people have made of Capaldi’s costume, is that they are all quite old fashioned, similar to Matt Smith’s Victorian outfits (see Fan Creativity thread). I think people have assumed that because he is an older actor, he will be wearing a respectable/traditional costume.

    How about him wearing something more contemporary or even futuristic? I’m not talking a tin-foil jumpsuit or anything like that but something more inspired than a suit and tie. Perhaps a bullet-proof vest wouldn’t go amiss 😉

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by  thommck. Reason: punctuation
    ScaryB @scaryb

    The sonic cane is not without precedent, as recently as LKH in fact –

    And was there not a sonic hatstand as well…?

    Anonymous @

    @scaryb @thommck @dickiegarvey

    But, isn’t red velvet a bit Pertwee-ish?  I’m interested in thom’s conjecture that Capaldi will wear something completely different.  We’ve had two kinds of suits in a row in AG Who; but then, most BG Doctors wore a suit of some sort (cricket and clown notwithstanding).  I’d only be disappointed if Capaldi’s age (the same as Hartnell’s, let’s not forget) informs the costume department’s ideas too much.

    Not that I see him wearing a velour tracksuit mind; but I hope his costume is distinctive, and different.  And like the plot theories floating around on the 50th thread about the ‘re-boot’ of the programme:  I hope Capaldi’s costume will be suitably (see what I did there?  🙂  ) backward-looking and forward-looking at the same time.

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Perhaps Capaldi will be the first naked Doctor…

    Anonymous @

    I’m sure I saw recently that PC is getting left pretty much to his own devices with regards to the costume and as PC has an admirable amount of creative flair, I’m pretty sure he’ll come up with something decent. Not sure I agree with @thommck‘s idea of a more modern outfit though. I think part of the reason that Eccleston just didn’t really do it as a Doctor for me was that his costume just wasn’t Doctor-ish enough.

    But then again, I’ve not really been crazy about Matt’s later costume either. I think they got it just right initially but the purple one just looked too much like a costume, like something dreamt up in a production office somewhere rather than something that had been genuinely put together by someone out of what they had to hand. All you needed to do was put a few question marks on it somewhere and you’d have been back in JNT land.

    Anonymous @

    @wolfweed  –

    Perhaps Capaldi will be the first naked Doctor…

    Keyboard. Snorted. tea. over. properly. the.

    (My browser has apparently blocked all searches including the word ‘naked’ so sadly can’t add an amusing gif to my post.)

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    @Shazzbot – My Lawyers say that I am not liable for the cost of a new keyboard.

    @jimthefish – I personally love the 7B purple outfit (as well as the Snowmen & Crimson Horror ones).


    Glad that Capaldi is to get free reign. What if he uses his fan knowledge to pick C Baker’s outfit, purely to annoy everybody, though ?

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @jimthefish and @wolfweed – I like the 7B outfit as well. Basically a change of jacket, sometimes he adds a waistcoat.

    It’s a wedding coat – absolutely typical of the Doctor that he wouldn’t realise that. Instead, he thinks it’s a cool coat that’ll really go with his jeans. 🙂

    The Krynoid Man @thekrynoidman

    I for one am looking forward to Peter Capaldi’s take on the Doctor. He has the potential to be one of the best.

    Anonymous @

    I think that Peter will be a darker Doctor than Smith and Tennant, he could be like the 9th Doctor, because a lot of people say he will be a darker charector of the Doctor and so was 9.

    wolfweed @wolfweed
    GroovyLord @groovylord

    Seems like a cool guy, I look forward to seeing his run! Though feels crazy that Smith’s run is over so soon, especially after only being with Clara for eight episodes or so (current Clara). I dig that they’ve got an older actor with a bit of a wily feel to him, should be fun.

    DenValdron @denvaldron

    @scoobasteve      Capaldi also appeared in the Tennant episode the ‘Fires of Pompeii’ as some roman guy or other.

    England, you see, is a relatively small place.  I’m told that you can drive across it in an afternoon.  I believe that there was an Australian once who owned a ranch that was bigger.  It’s a good thing that the English people are so short or it would be quite crowded.  Anyway, being a small place, there aren’t that many actors and creative people, and so they often have to double up.   For instance, in the Day of the Doctor, David Tenant also played a zygon in background roles, operated a dalek, did catering, and through the use of splitscreen doubled for queen bess.  Matt Smith could also be found in the background of a number of scenes as a hatrack.   In any production, you’ll see as few as three or four actors playing up to 35 parts.   Where it gets really confusing is due to inbreeding and isolation, everyone looks alike.  To avoid confusion, they all take the same names.  There are actually six actresses known as Helen Mirren, and four Rowan Atkinson’s  (there used to be eight, but several died on the set of Blackadder).

    Okay, that was tongue in cheek.  But the reality is that the pool of English actors really isn’t that vast, and you do see faces coming back.  Colin Baker, for instance, appeared as the Time Lord guard, Maxell, in the Tom Baker serial Invasion of Time (I think).    Although they tried to guard against stuff like that,  David Tenant did have a voice role in Scream of the Shalka.

    I think the decision was probably a question of whether the role was brief enough  (a supporting part over a few episodes) and far back enough, that you could overlook it.   If it’s not a sufficiently prominent recurring role…  Capaldi is probably safe.

    WhoHar @whohar


    the reality is that the pool of English actors really isn’t that vast, and you do see faces coming back

    I don’t think there’s a dearth of really good actors in the UK, quite the reverse.

    Anyway, DW has many times used previous bit part actors subsequently in major roles in show. Karen Gillan and Peter Capaldi both in Fires of Pompeii, so it’s a tradition now. My guess is that Moffat will explain away the similarity between Capaldi’s Doc and the Roman character at some point. It’s no big issue either way.

    I suspect Smith wanted to do the 50th and then move on – the big danger with playing the Doctor is one of typecasting. Eccleston and Tennant seem to be doing OK with their other roles, hopefully Smith can also find something interesting to do in the future.

    janetteB @janetteb

    I think MOffat has already explained the similarity between Capaldi’s doctor and the Roman. Tom Baker says he revists favourite faces in later regenerations, surely that suggests he can revisit faces he has encountered on this travels as well, though I agree with @whohar. It wasn’t necessary. Capaldi is an actor. The Roman was a character as is the Doctor.

    Sorry to be pedantic @denvaldron but Australians don’t have “ranches”. I think what you are referring to is a cattle station. I can’t verify the truth of that claim but it probably referrred to Sir Sidney Kidman who once owned a considerable portion of the Australian outback.



    janetteB @janetteb

    I should add that the U.K probably has more good actors than Kidman’s cattle station had cattle. : – )

    After Smith’s performance in the 59th I don’t think he will lack roles in the future. I hope he does well. He deserves it.



    DenValdron @denvaldron

    JanetteB    The reference to Australian ranches comes from an old interview with Art Linklater, a radio host who had a show called ‘Kid’s Say the Darndest Things’,  this was after his retirement, so I’m not totally ancient.   Anyway, in the interview, he talked about his Ranch in Australia, and its immense acreage.  So that’s where it stuck in my head.

    Gentle ribbing aside, England does produce a vast crop of brilliant actors, far too numerous to name.  As an ironic point, there’s a show on AMC called the Walking Dead, set in the American south in the Zombie apocalypse.  Two of the principal leads in this quintessentially American, ‘southern gothic horror’,  Andrew Lincoln, and David Morrisey, are British actors.   Amazing when you think about it.  There’s a lot of British actors in Hollywood.    Who knew a country so tiny that everyone has to sleep on a north to south axis to fit could have so many terrific actors.

    As for explanations, as to Capaldi’s ‘roman’ role.  I don’t think that Moffet needs to bother giving one.  Capaldi’s role in ‘Fires of Pompei’ was as an ensemble guest star in a single episode three seasons ago.  Big deal   It hardly ranks.

    To give you some examples from the old series, in the Armageddon Factor, the last adventure in Tom Baker’s ‘Key to Time’ series in the 16th season, Lalla Ward guest starred as Princess Astra.   At the end of that episode, Romana, played by Mary Tamm, decides to regenerate.  In the next season episode, Destiny of the Daleks,  the regenerated Romana is played by….  Lalla Ward!   It was such an obvious thing that the script had to acknowledge it, with Baker’s Doctor complaining, and the new Romana saying  ‘Get over it.’    And then, as I’ve said (and actually got wrong)  Colin Baker played the part of Commander Maxill of Gallifrey (got that part right), in the Arc of Infinity in season 20 (I remembered it as Invasion of Time, got that wrong), where he shoots the Peter Davison Doctor (I remembered it as Tom), and then takes over as the next Doctor in Season 21.

    I think that what it might actually be is comfort levels.  Generally, in my experience of film and television productions, if you find an actor that you work well with, that has a good ethic, the right kind of vibe or gestalt, good chemistry, then you will tend to want to work with him or her again.   A series that I had some affiliation with, Lexx, tended to bring back people they liked, one way or the other.

    Timeloop @timeloop

    @janetteb @whohar @denvaldron

    Moffat already said that he got one for Capaldi’s appearance in Doctor Who and Torchwood he will slowly play out.

    ScaryB @scaryb


    the reality is that the pool of English actors really isn’t that vast, and you do see faces coming back

    AHEM!!!!! ::stamps foot::

    That’s probably why Dr Who extends its casting hunt to include ALL the UK (3 Scottish Doctors and 1 Irish one so far; no Welsh one yet tho).

    Thanks to @whohar and @janetteb for not making the same oversight 😉


    PS Lexx’s internal logic was even more bonkers than DW

    Anonymous @

    A new thread has been opened for speculation, bonkers theorising, and more for the 2013 Christmas special:

    BUT NO SPOILERS! Please keep spoilers corralled into their own special hiding place.

    DenValdron @denvaldron

    ScaryB   On the subject of ‘good’ Scottish actors….  Ewan McGregor, and his performances in Star Wars.  I’m sorry I had to do that to you, but you asked for it.  Reminds me of the time someone started talking about great Canadian music, and finally I had to mention “Brian Adams.”  But they wouldn’t give up so eventually I had to say “Celine Dion!”  I still visit them in the institution.

    In terms of Doctor Who extending its casting hunt…  well, you see, the Doctor is an alien.  And let’s face it, to the English sensibility, you can’t get more alien than Scotland or Wales or even (shudder) Ireland.

    Honestly though, it feels weird taking rim shots at the mother country.  I’m much more used to poking at Canada.

    As for Lexx, their métier was surrealism, not sci fi.   At their best, they had more in common with Bunuel or Jodorosky than Lucas or Roddenberry.

    ScaryB @scaryb


    I’ll see your Star Wars Ewan McGregor and raise you a Brian Cox



    PS Not knocking Lexx btw, loved it, esp first couple  of series. (Dr Who isn’t pure sci fi either, but they both include elements of SF)

    DenValdron @denvaldron

    @scaryb   But, but isn’t Brian Cox a good actor?

    Lexx, I knew the guys who did it actually, small world eh.  The first two seasons were brilliant, the third season was flawed, the fourth was a matter of too little time, too little money, way too much to do.

    Anonymous @

    @denvaldron – you’re testing my patience, you are.  After your Cushing Doctor long posts last spring, I thought you might have much to contribute to our forum.

    I’ll bite here, only because Brian Cox’s acting chops are not in any question – as I hope you were also insinuating.  I went looking for YT clips from ‘Manhunter’ [1986] where Brian Cox was the original Hannibal Lecter, but sadly couldn’t find anything representative.  Let’s just say that Anthony Hopkins had bits of the set stuck between his teeth for months after his portrayal, whereas Brian Cox was so severely demented, and so quietly threatening, that there really couldn’t ever be another Hannibal L after him.

    I must admit that I was working for DEG (De Laurentiis Entertainment Group) at the time ‘Manhunter’ was released, but that fact in no way colours my appreciation of Brian Cox’s total inhabiting of the character of Hannibal Lecter.  Truly scary, less hissy (‘oooh, fava beans’ and [yawn] whatever from Sir Hopkins), and his acting was a masterclass in how Less Is More.

    DenValdron @denvaldron

    @Shazzbot    Testing your patience am I?   I’m sorry, I think that there’s been some miscommunication and misperception of my tone.

    Brian Cox is in fact a very good actor, and I am well aware of his performance as the original Hannibal Lecter in Manhunter.  In many ways, I prefer it to Anthony Hopkins performance as Lecter.  I think that they started out in very similar places, but where Cox maintained and developed his Lecter effectively, Hopkins increasingly hammed it up as he went along.   In terms of Cox, he’s always underplayed his hand, turning in quiet but effective performances.   Look at his work in the ribald comedy, Super Troopers, or in the esoteric Adaptation.  The man’s not a showboat, he inhabits the part, he makes it effective, and he’s as deft with slapstick comedy as high tension drama.  He’s a craftsman who knows his trade.  No disrespect at all.

    I was actually making fun of Ewan McGregor, who went from a brilliant turns in Shallow Grave Trainspotting, to something approaching shite in the Star Wars prequels, and then basically phoned it in in Jack the Giant Killer.   Let’s not even talk about Velvet Goldmine, or for that matter, the Island, or Moulin Rouge, all of which featured different flavours of emptiness.   Now, maybe we can slag George Lucas for the abysmal performance in Star Wars, but the reality is that probably more people have seen those movies than all the rest of his oevre put together, so his reputation stands or falls there.  In any event, he had Brian Singer as a Director for Jack the Giant Killer, so he can’t really blame anyone but himself for his department store mannekin of a performance there.   I don’t know about Salmon Fishing in Yemen, but as far as it goes with McGregor, the man seems to have gone the way of a one beer six bottle performer.   Now, if the Ewan McGregor fans (hard to imagine there’d be such a thing) wants to come and take a run at me, well then, I’d say  “Old Mrs McGregor, put up your dukes and we’ll have it out.”

    DenValdron @denvaldron

    @jimthefish    I kind of liked Colin Baker actually.   True, he was saddled with a horrible costume, and he got some really tosh scripts and direction.  But when allowed to do his job, he could be quite a good Doctor.   When on his game, he projected a unique and very hard to achieve blend of charm, compassion and brutality.   He was the Doctor as ‘runaway locomotive’ unstoppable.

    ScaryB @scaryb


    ta for support, but ‘s ok – we were just batting actors back and forth.

    But you and @denvaldron  both missed the obvious, and the reason I particularly namechecked BC – he was most recently on screen as a certain Sydney Newman! (In AAiS&T)


    Re CB – sadly the scripts mostly didn’t allow him to display very much in the way of charm! (I still say he could’ve been a great Master)

    ScaryB @scaryb

    PS @denvaldron – Every country has a Celine Dion lurking in its attics 😈


    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    And let’s face it, to the English sensibility, you can’t get more alien than Scotland or Wales or even (shudder) Ireland.

    Ummm… sorry?

    @denvaldron, I think you’re confusing the Scottish, Welsh and Irish with the French. There is nothing more alien (to the English) than the French. If the Doctor should ever regenerate as French, the entire universe would collapse. 😈

    It would never happen, however, because the thought would never even cross a Producer’s mind. American … ah, the fans wouldn’t like it (including many of the American fans). Australian or New Zealander? Maybe. Scottish? On our third. Irish or Welsh? Possible.

    But French? Non!

    DenValdron @denvaldron

    @scaryb   Unfortunately, ours got out and ran amuk in the world.   Shudder….

    DenValdron @denvaldron

    @bluepipsqueak    I have to take offense, speaking as a partly French person from a partly French country.   The way you go on, you almost describe the French as some slime dripping, tentacled, weirdly otherworldly alien manifestation.    That’s not the French.  That’s their cuisine.

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