The Rose & Crown

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

Full of Who alumni as well. 

@jimthefish Not just the actors – I spotted that they’d brought in Who and Torchwood directors Euros Lynn and James Strong.

 

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

For no other reason than it set me thinking, some thoughts on Prism and the appalling tendency to try to shoot the messenger. Feel free to dispute, ignore, whatever.

Shouting angrily at trees

[Anonymous @]

Hiya @pedant – nothing makes me more glad to be shot of the States than the Prism revelations.  It’s been an interesting 13 years over here in Britain, looking back on my American upbringing and realising just how odd being raised American actually is.

I’d never heard the phrase ‘American exceptionalism’ whilst living there, perhaps because it’s so fundamental to the national character; so all-pervasive a concept that it doesn’t need defining, it just is.  Everything, every little bit of life from school to mass media, rests on the assumption that anything America does is perfectly correct, righteous, and necessary.

It doesn’t surprise me at all that the Prism story in America turned so quickly into painting Edward Snowden a ‘traitor’.  The guy showed just how far down the fascism route America has gone, yet he’s a traitor?  Well, yes, of course he is; he’s questioning American government and no-one can question American government (see ‘perfectly correct’, ‘righteous’, etc).

As an aside, the only reason I haven’t renounced my American citizenship is because I researched what that entails.  Not exaggerating, it involves being locked in a room with someone who badgers you for up to 4 hours, grilling you repeatedly about why on earth you’d want to stop being American.  The concept is so alien to them, they assume you must be mentally ill to want to renounce your American-ness.

I truly hope Edward Snowden’s revelations remain the story, at least in the rest of the world.  And I truly hope he doesn’t get extraordinarily rendered (gaww, what a hideous euphemism) back to the States.

[curvedspace @curvedspace]

@Shazzbot in re this reply:

No, I’m not in Ireland, alas! I did spend a lovely three weeks there with @ardaraith last November, after which I yearned to spend a year abroad. We just couldn’t figure out a way to be allowed in the country for that long (would you believe that neither being employed nor being a student in Ireland ensures that you get to bring your family with you?). It’s not really an option for me to marry an EU citizen, so I guess we’ll just have to visit again.

I do frequent a local cafe run by an English ex-pat (that shows Doctor Who episodes, natch) so I sometimes drink proper tea and feel wistful. As the “y’all” may have indicated, I live in Texas. (Austin, to be precise, which is only Texan in the good ways.)

[Anonymous @]

Hiya @curvedspace – didja see my post in this pub just above yours?  I’m a bitter almost-ex-American (Los Angeles by birth).  There’s a square mile in Santa Monica which has about 12 ‘proper English pubs’ complete with warm flat ale and ironic dartboards, also run by ex-pats, which I didn’t discover until the last week before I moved to Britain full-stop (or, “period” as y’all call it 🙂 ).

I had an exchange with @lula a while back about using “y’all” – I love it!  Contemporary English needs a plural ‘you’ and I’ve been saying “y’all” as nothing else is so fitting, and also so friendly.

I fondly remember iced tea – a beverage the Brits sadly have yet to embrace – and I also remember drinking hot tea with lemon (baaaah!  milky tea only for me, now).

If after a 3-week November holiday in Ireland you still are keen to move across the pond, then you my friend are an honorary Irish person!  I’d call you an honorary Brit but that just brings up centuries of bad feeling  🙂 .

Good luck with the wee bairn and I hope to see you again on these fair shores –

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@Shazzbot– English does in fact have plural ‘yous’, in certain dialects. ‘Youse’ for example. I recently realised how married I was, despite not being officially married, when I referred to ‘oose’, for our,  (I’m randomly making up spellings from how my boyfriend speaks) because I was bought up speaking RP. The point has been made that some dialects allow for more precision in speaking because they make the difference between singular and plural, formal and informal, more than RP does. Northern dialects in particular are closer to older English, formal and informal, thee and you, ow’t and now’t- in the 18th, even 19th century southerners, even ‘posh’ southerners said ‘ought’ and ‘nought’. What interests me about American dialects, is that in some places you/they also retain older usages, like plural yous, and also the way the English sometimes get snobbish about American compound words (make a new word by joining together lots of old ones) when a: we do that sometimes (antidisestablishmentarianism, anyone? (That was even in the spell checker!)) and b: in German that is done a lot.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@Shazzbot – Doesn’t matter how much you dislike some of the things your country does it’s still where you come from, so not easy (or desirable) to shake it all off.  Good and bad everywhere. Try being Scottish, voting as we do, and still being part of the UK (and not necessarily wanting to be not part of it).  America (all countries) needs good people like you to go out and show the world how good Americans CAN be.

Re iced tea – I suspect the weather may have a LOT to do with that! eg middle of June and it’s not even 20deg 🙁

[Anonymous @]

Hiya @scaryb – well, we’re in the pub at mid-day, so I’m guessing I’m an honorary Scot.  😀

Here’s a good Rose & Crown topic – do you know how you’re going to vote in next year’s referendum?  If Scotland does go for independence, I’m moving on up.  Everything that I liked about Britain since I arrived in 2000 has been sold off to the lowest bidder.  Labour and Tories are two cheeks of the same arse, and I really want to be part of a country that chooses to keep some vestiges of leftish, socialist leanings.

[FishComBobulated @fishcombobulated]

To dip out of politics and the Orwellian nation-state that I am now forced as “a reader” (as Bill Hick put it) to spend two hours a day reading news purely to keep up with prism and the dozen other acronyms that are surveilling essentially all Yanks (and Brits). Rather time-consuming and paranoia-affirming.

So, there was much mention of wine during the airing of the last grouping of episodes. And as this is the pub, I am quite curious to see what people imbibe while watching the show based on country (as well as based on the seasons: seasons of the year and of the show).

During the last series, I tended to have a bit of beer while throwing watching parties/family gatherings. When spring arrived, some pinot gris or pinot grigio with the windows open at night and Who on the little big screen. And as a general apertif, gin and tonic. (Hats off to the good Brits who manufacture these juniper-infused spirits.)

What kind of wine were you all drinking to enhance the episodal experience? White? Red?

It’s the pub folks, and the next episode is months away. Sound off! I want to have the perfect drink and meal prepared ahead of time, so give us your favorites. Just like when I invented the Wootini for Star Wars events (kiwi, vodka and raspberry lemonade et. al.), I want to have the perfect Autumn beverage pre-prepared for 50th.

Please give your suggestions in the pub over the months, as pubs are the only places people ever talk about alcohol. Ever. Anywhere. (Sorry, folks, prism may be listening, and I don’t want them thinking me a lush. It could go in my permanent record.)

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@FishComBombulated

For the Eccleston year, it was always Sauvignon Blanc; Tennant started with that but around School Reunion champagne became the tipple of choice. For Smith, it has been Double G&T since Beast Below, with Champagne re-emerging for and after Cold War.

[Anonymous @]

@htpbdet , FishComBobulated– me, I’m on ‘the Viking Diet’.  Vodka and squash, with lashings of cold water top-ups.

@FishComBobulated– ha ha, the ‘permanent record’!  That was always the guillotine everyone hung over our school-aged heads.  We lived in fear of the Permanent Record.  Then, we grew up, and realised no such thing existed.  (And then, years later, the internet was invented and the Permanent Record slithered into everyone’s lives.  Goodness knows how the next generation will survive that onslaught.)

[FishComBobulated @fishcombobulated]

@shazzbot

I remember the existential threat of “the permanent record” since kindergarten. It was my first big word: “But I gave Russell his toy back, why do I have to go on my ‘purr-muh-mint reck-ord?'” Who knew it had been real starting in 2006 (as the news shows that these programs have been running unchecked since 2006 in the US and spread to England in that time)?

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

In the light of recent-ish events:

The most dangerous cocktail in the world

(Tangential Who link: I recall the shocked reaction at a certain scene in The Rebel Flesh – no, not that one, the earlier more visceral one)

Even more tangential, Sarah Pinborough would write a v interesting Who. But it would have to be put out after the watershed.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@pedant

Thanks for the link to your blog and Sarah Pinburgh’s –  both very moving. I’m glad your internet friend was OK and escaped eventually. Being a victim is complex, and sometimes other people’s opinions don’t help.  I recently heard of an incident which happened to a young friend of mine – she’s intelligent, self aware, has supportive family and friends (which she acknowledges) – yet she’s spent the last 5 years blaming herself, keeping quiet and going to quite elaborate lengths to keep up a facade of “everything’s OK”

[Anonymous @]

Well, it’s Friday night again, and I have a corker of a music video for everyone.  It’s by Julie Brown, and I’m happy to say I worked with her in an Equity-waiver production in LA many moons ago.  That was a while after this song made number one on all the top LA radio stations, so it was – for me – rather like meeting ‘my Doctor’:  I actually got to work with a brilliant comedic talent like Julie.

The Homecoming Queen’s Got A Gun

If you liked that, please also watch this one:  ‘Cause I’m a Blonde

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/human-head-transplants-a-feasible-enterprise-says-italian-neurosurgeon-dr-sergio-canavero-8682851.html

Truth is stranger than fiction…

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

This might amuse or enrage (and is fairly on-topic by my standards)

[Anonymous @]

@pedant – these really made me laugh:

Just as someone disagreeing with you is not an attack on your personal integrity and self-esteem, so someone agreeing with you is not an attempt to get in your pants.

If you have been up drinking with someone until 4am that person does not want a shag. If the person wanted a shag then staying up drinking until 4am, in all likelihood, would not have been on the agenda.

Remember: Big Bang Theory is not a training video.

 

[ScaryB @scaryb]

Just after mid-day, Sun – sounds like a reasonable time to hit the pub! Any of @juniperfish‘s (welcome back!!!! 😀 ) margueritas on the go? And for entertainment… please note this is probably NOT in the name of the Dr 😉

 

[ScaryB @scaryb]

And nice post @pedant Made me chuckle. Cheers all

[Anonymous @]

@scaryb – nice to see you, too, back here!  That dance video was seriously disturbing in the best possible way.  🙂

Here on what every other Brit would call a gorgeously hot and sunny day, I too feel the need to find a cool dark pub to hide out in.  I hate the heat.   Honestly, I moved from Los Angeles to London, then to North Yorkshire … soon, only the Shetlands will be northerly enough for me.  I’m doing the opposite of what normal people do as they age – ie. becoming ‘snowbirds’ who move further south (in the American sense, to Florida) – as I chase ever cooler climes.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@Shazzbot Welcome to the pub. (haha John Hurt as Caligula is seriously disturbing. Highly recommend the full series. It seems to be becoming more available these days, think it’s on DVD now).

Even Scotland’s into the 20s today (just) but at least here you know it’ll be cloudy and rainy again in a couple of days 🙂 Heat’s fine so long as there’s a way to get cool.  I like blue skies though, clouds get depressing. Pint?

So… is there a TV in here?  Is the tennis on? 🙂

[Anonymous @]

@scaryb – if this pub actually served real ale, I’d never leave.  😉

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

Here on what every other Brit would call a gorgeously hot and sunny day, I too feel the need to find a cool dark pub to hide out in.

@Shazzbot: You are not alone. I think it’s having spent formative years in a hot climate instead of having grown up in the true British spirit of: “Mummy, what’s that strange bright thing in the sky?”

I do dutifully tootle out for half an hour or so to get the Vitamin D dose, but I really want to be inside somewhere shady and cool. 🙂

[ScaryB @scaryb]

<runs in a little unsteadily with a crate of chilled champagne and a bigger on the inside basket of sweet juicy strawberries>

Andy Murray for the next Doctor…! Or is that taking it a bit too far? 😉

<too much emotion; slides slowly under the table!>

Scheeeers everyone…

*hic*

zzzzzzzzzz

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@scaryb – it’s been a long wait since 1896. Enjoy the champers! 🙂

[TardisBlue @tardisblue]

:::waves:::

been lurking for a bit.  I can’t begin to tell you how grateful I am that one of my random Who-related searches led me to this site.

:::raises glass of Kaliber to toast @craig, @phaseshift, @jimthefish, @HTPBET, and all the refugees from Sites Which Shall Not Be Named who have made this forum so fantastic, unblinking and cool.   Not to mention the exceptional quality of the posts and the considerate nature of the posters.  Here, have some celery. Getting a wee bit thirsty?  The next round’s on me.:::

I was introduced to BG Who on my local PBS station in the states.  A bit of Pertwee and a bunch of Baker.  I remember Baker’s fall at the end of his run, but really the only memories I have of Davison are from All Creatures Great and Small.  (Anyone else see his disappointed face in their mind’s eye whenever they encounter bangers and mash?)   I stumbled upon the AG Who when the US cable channel SciFi (now Syfy) was running episodes.  This was sometime early on during Tennant’s run.  Eventually BBC America started running them,  and I was able to catch all of the Ninth Doctor as well as Ten and Eleven.

@Shazzbot, I was interested to see we were both living in SoCal (Southern California) for a while.   (I still am, if you ever get a hankering for sunny, warm weather.)   Been wondering if our paths crossed at some LA theater sometime.  I do an excellent job of playing an audience member at venues large (Ahmanson) and small (99 seat Equity Waiver houses) and inbetween.  😉   Apropos of your comment about Irish pubs, I’m sad to report that Los Angeles just lost one of its oldest Irish hangouts:  Tom Bergin’s.  http://www.latimes.com/features/food/dailydish/la-dd-tom-bergins-20130703,0,3778179.story  And I am still mourning last year’s closure of  Santa Monica’s The Tutor House.  http://www.british-weekly.com/?p=9277

@HTPBET, ever since you posted your memories of the Sylvester McCoy era, I have been seeing images of your little fledglings and McLeela preparing for the hen’s party, and imagining how the sudden shock of the news of their passing must have been for you.  My sincerest condolences.  How hard for you and your son.  The shock and sadness of leaves (to mix metaphors) left unlived, and pyjama-clad children joining you under the stairs on your steps have been etched into my heart.

Congrats to those of you who were able to get tickets to the festivities at the ExCel for the 50th.  I’m looking forward to your reports.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TardisBlue @tardisblue]

@htpbdet,

I must have missed one of your initials in my post (above).  I am frequently in awe of your insights and writing ability, and want you to know how much you have touched me on many different levels.   Warmest wishes for a continued recovery.

[Anonymous @]

@tardisblue – seeing as we’re here in the pub, I’ll ignore everything else (sorry!) and address your LA thingy.

Yep, I was an Angelena born ‘n bred.  My theatre experience is with The Groundlings, from 1981 to 1995.  And how do I miss the hot dry heat of my homeland (I’m currently being used as dinner by several dozen midges – if I had known England had midges I’d never have moved here  🙂  ).

Ahh, RIP Tom Bergin’s.  Although, I never got into the whole expat British / Irish pub thing in Santa Monica until I had one foot on British soil.

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@tardisblue

You are very kind – and thanks.

Don’t be in awe – nothing special about me. But I am touched that my little story has been of interest.

Truly.

I was, frankly, scared when I started – because I am not sure I have ever articulated my relationship with the programme in such an open and idiosyncratically clinical way – but my recent medical issues suddenly made it important to me to try and articulate the journey – for my nephews and any possible grandchildren or great-nephews/nieces.

There were several points in recent months when I did not think I would see the 50th Anniversary Special, but this writing project has seriously helped me through the darkest times. And it has been something to read aloud the various instalments to my nephews while they looked at photos and postcards and other indicia of a life lived under the spell of the TARDIS.

And I am luckiest of all that there was this kind and special place where it was not considered especially freaky to tell this very personal story. I don’t know if I would have been able to take the risk of sharing the story with my nephews but for the kindness shown here.

Here, at least so it seems to me, we all share a common love. No one strives to be King and everyone happily sits at a very round table – full of strong personalities, shy personalities, funny personalities and clever minds all.

I feel like I have learnt a lot about the way Doctor Who works for younger people today and about how AG Doctor Who affected people in different ways from the way it affected me. And I have much more to learn.

As well, it is good to be challenged and made to rethink by people who feel passionately about the programme too – like @jimthefish , @scaryb, @juniperfish, @bluesqueakpip, @phaseshift, @blenkinsopthebrave, @nick, @chickenelly and @osakahatter –  and to get to chat to people like you and @Shazzbot and many others who are part of a new wave of small-F fans.

And for all that, we have the great @craig to thank – and I, for one, cannot begin to repay him for the gift he has given.

So, welcome, fellow wanderer in the fourth dimension – it’s quite a ride here.

🙂

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@tardisblue Nice first post, thanks for comments, and welcome. Look forward to reading your future contributions

@htpbdet Thanks also for lovely comments. This is indeed a special space, created and maintained by everyone who participates and feels part of it. And so glad to hear you are feeling more positive and able to look forward to the 50th, and beyond. Look forward to debating with you on Who-things for a long time to come.

<oops – bit early to be in the pub! Especally after the embarrassing slide under the table the other night! 😳 >

[TardisBlue @tardisblue]

@HTBDET and @scaryb and @Shazzbot:  Thank you for your kind and encouraging welcome.

@Shazzbot:  If you were part of the Groundlings company which performed on Fridays and Sundays during the period of roughly 1983-1985, I may have seen you.   And you may have seen me.  I was the audience member who’d suggest that the improv actors play the scene in the style of Commedia D’Arte or Samuel Beckett or something other than the most popular movie/TV show at the time … The Beckett suggestion backfired, though, because one of the actors immediately plopped himself down on the floor of the stage and said “I’ll wait.”  At which point the director ended the sketch.

(Cue:  “It’s a Small World After All … )  And, applying Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon* to the Groundlings, some folks I know were front office/box office volunteers during some of your time there.

I just took my nephew to see The Groundlings’ Post Prom Party for his birthday.  (I sprung for Saturday night tickets; he’s worth it.)  Fun.

*Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon is a variation on Six Degrees of Separation, where try to create a person-to-person connection between an actor/person and Kevin Bacon (or his roles/movies) in six connections or less.  Although if you’re playing a Groundlings version, maybe it should be Six Degrees of PeeWee Herman (whom my friends know).

 

[Anonymous @]

@tardisblue – I was the Stage Manager at the Groundlings – you would have seen me dressed all in black, scurrying around on stage between the sketches and improvs, setting/striking furniture and props (mostly in the blackouts, but sometimes live on stage).

And yes, I know Paul Reubens, too.  My time at the Groundlings goes back to when he was doing Pee Wee Herman as a sketch character, holding a paper bag of sweets and beaning them randomly at the audience.

‘Tis a small world, indeed.  🙂

P.S. @tardisblue – you do know that Howie on Big Bang Theory is played by the son of one of the original Groundlings, Sandy Helberg?  I probably baby-sat Simon when he was a wee lad (I did lots of babysitting for all the Groundlings during those years.)

[TardisBlue @tardisblue]

@htpbdet, guess I inadvertently demoted Pertwee this time.  Last time I demoted Davison.  Sorry.  But your initials would be so much easier to remember if they ended with an “S”  😉

… looking furtively around for Shazzbot, as I’ve realized I’m about to veer off into non-pub waters again.  Just deleted a ‘graph where I was nattering on appreciatively about how H Etc.’s discussion of “to S or not to S” broadened my mind regardless of our different views of his stature/accomplishments in the role.

All this veering around!  So uncool and unpub-like,  Guess that’s a hazard of sticking to the N/A bottles instead of real pints.  :/

… gathering up Panama Hat and sunscreen and veering out the door …

[TardisBlue @tardisblue]

@Shazzbot.  No, I did not know that!  Verrry interrresting (in Hogan’s Heroes over-the-top German accent).  Mind if I mention bumping into you here to my friends?

[Anonymous @]

@tardisblue – You mentioned knowing FoH and BO staff at the Groundlings, one or more of them would probably remember me.  I worked Fri/Sat/Sun nights plus did stage managing for all the shows the classes put on mid-week.  Plus I did stuff for ‘Chick Hazard’ for the Olympics Arts Festival in 1984.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

 to create a person-to-person connection between an actor/person and Kevin Bacon (or his roles/movies) in six connections or less.

Crewed on a stage play starring Gary Oldman (back before he went off to Hollywood), Gary Oldman worked with Kevin Bacon on Murder in the First. 😉

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@tardisblue

Thank goodness for you!

Here was I musing about rambling on about “To S or not to S” (mainly in the forlorn hope that @Shazzbot would cease prodding me!) and you mention that I appear to have already done it…

Lordy….I must indeed have been out of it…

🙂

[Anonymous @]

@htpbdet – I resent that!  😀  I am merely one of a horde of people gently reminding (not exhorting) you to consider Matt Smith’s incarnation as worthy of your moniker.  I am in no way their ringleader.  🙂

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@Shazzbot

Ah….you are always gentle!

But I thought you might bite…  🙂

I have no memory of the post @tardisblue mentions, but thought you might…

 

[Anonymous @]

@htpbdet – the post in question was a bit garbled, but what I got out of it was that the poster was referring to one of his own posts (which got lost to the angry gods of ‘don’t hit the backspace key whilst typing’), and not to one of yours.

You’re not to worry, you’re not sleep-posting … yet!  🙂

PS:  and seeing as how I now present myself to the world as The Rani, I assume I’m no longer gentle and indeed might bite ( ! ).  Whatever you want to tell me about my chosen avatar would be greatly appreciated.  I was just looking for something suitably menacing with my new title.  If you have another suggestion for a female Doctor Who villain who could be my presented-to-the-world face, please share!

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@Shazzbot

Oh, I really liked the Rani. She is a great role-model for feminine evil.

I always really liked Vivien Fey from Stones of Blood and if camp overplaying is your thing, Adrastra from Creature From The Pit is hard to beat.

I would love the Master to become a woman – a classy, vicious murderous enemy. Maybe you could aspire to that? 🙂

I may have mis-read the post above. But I thought the lost paragraph was about some musings of mine about why there was no “S”.

Perhaps my mind is even more befuddled than I thought…

[Anonymous @]

@htpbdet – on a serious note, it’s really difficut to have ‘a classy, vicious murderous enemy’ who is female nowadays, especially in what is still ostensibly a children’s programme on the BBC with a male protagonist; but, also in general.

Take Sherlock (the latest reboot with Benedict Cumberbatch) for example – Ms Adler had to be presented fully nude, i.e., a sexually (uninhibited and) voracious competitor who tried to use her body as well as her mind to vanquish her (male) opponent.

I would give full marks to any DW writer who could create a female Master who was gender-blindly presented simply as a worthy opponent to the Doctor.  I can’t lay the blame on the doorstep of the BBC for not (attempting?) doing this, because current social mores still don’t allow women to be portrayed as ‘classy, vicious’ without some sexually-charged element.

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@Shazzbot

Well, Ms Adler did not have to be presented that way – but she was.

Hermione Norris would make a chilling mistress of evil if she was cast as one – and not necessarily sexual. Gina McKee could too. And Emma Fielding.

All it takes is for white men to be willing to accept a world where women can be effective without relying upon sex.

Not sure, though, that I will live that long.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@Shazzbot

<deep bow in honour of your shiny new status and cracking new avatar>

@htpbdet <yikes, am going to disagree with new moderator on my first post!!> You did post something on to S or not to S a while back (unless befuddlement is catching). Hanged if I can find it now though. It went along the lines of while you were very impressed with his acting skills, especially since Clara, you didn’t feel he quite inhabited, or grounded the role, the way eg Troughton or Tennant did, there was still the feeling he was acting, even tho he was doing it extremely well, and was very close to being completely convincing (paraphrased from memory, and apologies if I added Tennant in from personal bias )

And yes, it would be great to get a really twisted female baddie, especially a gorgeous one so they couldn’t blame her badness on her not being a looker, who was effective without using sex to manipulate.  Likewise a strong male hero who, no matter how intelligent he’s supposed to be, isn’t considered to have proven his manliness till he’s battered shit out of his opponent with his fists!   Like the Doctor in fact   Maybe he’s needed on the big screen after all.

All it takes is for white men to be willing to accept a world where women can be effective without relying upon sex.

“white men”? Sorry, if I’m missing a reference here.  I’m quite happy to be multicultural about this!  Good to see there’s still a few good men around though.

[Anonymous @]

@scaryb – oh, behave!  It only took you 24 hours to notice!  😆

it would be great to get a really twisted female baddie, especially a gorgeous one so they couldn’t blame her badness on her not being a looker, who was effective without using sex to manipulate

Here’s where I want to address @htpbdet ‘s suggestions for female Masters, and, want to make an addition to your point.  Gina McKee is certainly strongly good-looking, but more in that girl-next-door way; she’s not obviously ‘gorgeous’ **   (unlike the actress who played Irene Adler in Sherlock recently).  Hermione Norris is more ‘handsome’ yet still in a feminine way; and Emma Fielding is smart and pretty, but again, somehow lacking ‘gorgeous’. **

** in this sense, I’m using ‘gorgeous’ as shorthand for ‘classically beautiful – and oh-so-young – with massive sex appeal in a way that makes men’s knees bend in a trembly manner’

And this is probably the wrong time and place to raise this (which means, of course, that I will!) but a female baddie could and should be able to be both classy and vicious without those [youthful] sexual elements that come from being ‘gorgeous’.  Why shouldn’t an actress as strong as Gina McKee play the Master as ‘a classy, vicious murderous enemy’ , anyway?!  Because somehow right now, the only truly good female baddies (in the eyes of the [mainly] men who create TV) must be able to blind male viewers with their bodies/faces as well as their minds.

Am so willing to hear counter-arguments on this!

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@shazzbot (noticed the avatar, not the status 🙂 ) @htpbdet – quick response on the run – re great female baddies –

Diana Rigg and Celia Imrie

2 under our very noses

🙂

[Whisht @whisht]

Hi @Shazzbot – as a male (first time I’ve ever described myself as that as always seemed the least descriptive element!) not sure what you’re looking for, but I can smell a list when one’s being asked for!

:¬)

Now, non-“sexy” (in that its not important whether we men and women find them sexually appealing even if their characterisation includes their attractions to the men in the films) villains on screen could include Kathy Bates in Misery (jeeeezus), and Louise Fletcher as Nurse Ratched in ‘One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest’.

Now, I think you want actresses and I’ve named 2 “non-sexy” ones (though either is attractive as is Gina McKee who you underestimate – she has ‘something’ in a way that’s not obvious), but here’s a few literary female villains that may just prompt someone to remember “ooh I saw Fiona Shaw in that” such as Lady Macbeth, Clytemnestra, Medea etc

But were you actually looking for a list of non-sexy villains whose villainy wasn’t due to their non-sexy-ness?

[Anonymous @]

@whisht – I think it goes back to what @scaryb said:  “[a female villain] who was effective without using sex to manipulate”

The discussion started with trying to find a female actress who could play the Master (as @htpbdet said) as ‘a classy, vicious murderous enemy”.

So, whilst literatery femme fatales are important to raise (especially if they were never ‘drawn’ as young, sexy and ‘gorgeous’ creatures) in this context, we’re looking for an example of a female villain character on TV today who manages to devastate her [male] adversary primarily with her dazzling wit and mental functions, without whipping out her knockers as a diversionary tactic.

[PhaseShift @phaseshift Time Lord]

@shazzbot

it’s really difficut to have ‘a classy, vicious murderous enemy’ who is female nowadays, especially in what is still ostensibly a children’s programme on the BBC with a male protagonist; but, also in general.,,,

….but a female baddie could and should be able to be both classy and vicious without those [youthful] sexual elements that come from being ‘gorgeous’

Ahem… do we all forget so soon?

[Author]

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