The Time of The Doctor

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  • #23599
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @nicelyuseless

    Welcome, and not stupid questions. I think we may have to agree a consensus on numbering/naming on here. It’s mighty confusing ūüėČ (As @jimthefish says Tennant is now 11 AND 12!))

    Personally I like the idea of Capaldi as the new No 1 ūüėČ but I’ll settle for 12.

    My pref would probably be to stick with the original numbering for now, with Hurt as 8a, Tennant as 10 and Smith as 11. But that’s probably just cos I’m old, and set in my ways, hehe

    @fatmaninabox – I am as always mightily impressed with your ability to identify bits of music

    #23600
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    I’m still trying to digest @juniperfish s analysis. Both brilliant and bonkers. I may have to come back to it!

    @scaryb. Maybe, like AG and BG we need to develop our own shorthand. Peter Capaldi could be Doctor 2.1. Second regeneration set, first iteration. (Hartnell was Doc 1.1, Troughton 1.2, etc with it all getting a bit messy at the end). Any other suggestions (bonkers or otherwise) taken.

    #23601
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @scaryb – the nakedness did have one plot function – it meant that Clara’s Dad had a justifiable reason to act shocked, startled, embarrassed and slightly confused.

    Which means that we can’t tell whether or not he recognised the Doctor.

    #23602
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    @scaryb  The Drunk Giraffe instructions can found in The Brilliant Book of Dr Who 2011

    z

    The nakedness allowed the Dr to reveal that he was bald. (If you think about it though, by hiding the 2nd key under a wig, he wasn’t technically fully naked in Church, was he? Heresy!)

    #23603
    nicelyuseless @nicelyuseless

    @scaryb Thank you. I do like new 1, for some reason that quite appeals to me…

    But if @bluesqueakpip refers to him as Twelve (along with the Beeb), then I am sure as Hades going to call him Twelve! ūüėČ

     

    I should also have mentioned that I absolutely LOVED this episode; it left me in a weepy puddle of whisky-scented tears.

     

    #23604
    geoffers @geoffers

    hi, all! just finished up, like, the 4th rewatch, and i may be able to make some coherent observations… maybe…

    loved it, of course. took a couple of rewatches to adjust to the “slower” pace. just not what i’m used to with AG episodes. felt much more like a BG story (and maybe because of the time lord involvement). as others have stated, perhaps it’s just because moffat tied up so many loose ends, and didn’t create as much mystery for the next series, as he has been wont to do?

    @craig – i think the cybership in this ep was one the doctor was unfamiliar with? the tardis identified it as “unknown,” or somesuch, and that’s why he chose to go there in the tardis, instead of transmatting. the dalek ship? i thought it strange, too, that he wouldn’t recognize a dalek ship, but maybe it was just too dark? and that light was in his eyes, sort of… lol.

    yes, the weeping angel thing bugged me, too, when i first saw it. but perhaps, when the doctor activates the tardis remotely, several of the angels are frozen when it disappears, as happened way back in ‘blink?’ maybe the only one to survive that first encounter was the one he eventually trapped with the mirror? as for clara not being zapped when her ankle was grabbed, i guess we are left to assume that it’s the will of the angel, whether to zap you, or not. also, it couldn’t see her, being buried in snow, so maybe that made a difference, somehow?

    and the message, i can only guess that it was encrypted in such a way that the tardis wouldn’t automatically translate, or recognize it. it was specifically for the doctor to figure out how to decrypt it, and handles was only able to do so when the doctor connected that seal to him (that thing he got from the master)…

    as for the truth field, when the doctor says “i’ve got a plan,” and then contradicts himself… poetic license? or a commentary on how expert a liar the doctor is, that he can fool a truth field with a “minor” lie? or to fool himself, from moment to moment? or, maybe his plan was…

    @scaryb – i believe the doctor made clara stay behind at the last moment, because he still had a sliver of hope that she might work some of her “impossible” magic. how could she possibly remain safe down there, if he fails to defeat the daleks? the tardis would be the only safe place to put her, but even the tardis stays there, and dies, according to the trenzalore timeline. if he fails, she dies later, rather than sooner. it’s always difficult to know what the doctor knows, for sure, until he reveals it (onscreen), but i think he’s always a couple of steps ahead of everyone else. knowing that there are time lords on the other side of the crack, and knowing that his cycle of regens is up, he’s probably gone through every conceivable scenario of getting a new set from them that he can think of (without asking), over the 400/500 years that he’s been the protector of trenzalore. they are his only hope to keep living, and he has decided to die with grace (not grovelling, or begging)… but, just in case, here’s clara, back again, after he’s sent her home twice, so let’s see if she can intervene just once more to save the day! (and then, “take all the credit,” as he jokingly puts it!)

    i have no clue why tasha lem is always young, except that maybe she doesn’t want the doctor to see her age? perhaps another slim connection to a possible river connection? or maybe she has connections to the sisterhood of karn, and their potions…

    as for the hologram clothing, it was confusing, wasn’t it?! you have to be naked, but you’re allowed (or required) to wear fake clothes? i’m guessing it’s to maintain a token modesty… or, to keep people from bringing stuff in that is prohibited. remember how tasha knew that the doctor had the tardis key on a chain around his neck? if he was allowed to wear real clothes, he would have to be searched for such a thing. and other “pilgrims” coming to the mainframe would likewise be subjected to searches (for security purposes, perhaps), so it’s easier to wear fake clothes…

    a couple of things i noticed… the doctor still had his limp, whilst he was in the middle of his regeneration in the tardis. and tasha lem’s forehead jewel is absent (understandably) after she’s been dalekised…

    one question i still have, though. when the tardis returns with clara clinging to the outside, what is it that the doctor says to barnable? something like “that’s how i got her in the first place?” is this a reference to clara intervening in ‘the name of the doctor,’ where she advises hartnell to take a different one? that’s all i can figure, as it doesn’t make sense that the tardis just materialized in front of him when “he first got her.” but in the scene, clara isn’t fully visible, yet, either, when he makes the comment to the boy, so it’s a bit confusing, what he means there…

    @The Krynoid Man – he wasn’t really regenerating. he didn’t have enough left to go through a full regeneration, only enough to heal river’s broken wrist, and a little more to fake his own death (via the teselecta)…

     

    cheers!

     

     

    #23605
    geoffers @geoffers

    ah, one last thought. i was a bit disappointed with the crack opening in the sky, too. i would have preferred for it to have opened behind him, in the giant bell (like the liberty bell), and he hears it, and turns around to get his surprise reward. that way the daleks would have no clue that it was happening, till it was too late. as it was, surely they could see it open up, and see the tendrils of energy floating down to the doctor?! plenty of time to obliterate the bell tower. although every enemy in the episode was a fairly poor shot (to say the least), so there’s no guarantee there, either…

    but, that’s just me being nitpicky…

    and…. how cool was the “lava” effect, during the first moments of his regeneration? pretty powerful magic, that time lord technology! (dare i say, nearly as powerful as midi-chlorians?)

    ūüôā

    #23607
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Dear BBC – I must say I am outraged!

    Why do you feel it’s okay to show the two main stars of this programme parading about nude for half of the show?

    If I want that sort of thing, I’ll watch BBV’s ‘Zygon’…

    It was pre-watershed, but my eyes were watering- I can tell you…

    My family and I are all hologram-intolerant – nothing was left to the imagination.

    Uncle choked on his Turkey!

    Thank goodness it wasn’t on in Cinematic 3-D, that’s all I can say…..

    Mary Whitehouse must be doing the proverbial…….

    z

     

    To read the story without those offensive visuals…. Here’s the transcript:

    http://www.chakoteya.net/doctorwho/34-2.htm

    #23608
    d12345 @d12345

    hah its very funny to watch you all trying your hardest to justife a very poor last two specials  , due to moffats lazy and unmotivated writting .

    @juniperfish what a post about trenzelore !! oh i am afraid thats way way to deep to be presented in this way, we can say this is the case off course,but i really doubt moffat was thinking in that direction. If he did there would be a better explanation of this ,and how would the most of average people watching this know and understand  the elements of egzptan myts leading up to time lords giving the doctor forgivness .I am afraid its much simpler than that

    The code was the doctors name, and not if they want to help or not , time lords know he is a good guy ,there is no need for the doctor to prove that , everybody knows he is a good  guy. Again trying really hard to make the episode a good one

    @bluesqueakpip hey deus , this was a post that most profesors could not write better , its a shame thought it is jused to try to prove that the specials were brilliant , when in reality they lacked both action ans unexpected surprises we all want . It makes me laugh how people like @bluesqueakpip @juniperfish @jimthefish @craig who seem quite intelligent , refuse to say this wasnt good , and go on with their fantasy great doctor who show

    I remember when we all debated before the 50th special , how many brilliant and mind blowing theories were written , how many interesting things were possible , j. hurts indentity,time war action we never seen before,companions from the past,m smith not beeing able to regenerate any more,great inteligence,the silence,zygon enemys having somekind of master evil plan,we all expected river songs mystery to be solved with the end of matt smith era,trenzelore was suposed to be somekind of mindblowing timey wimey

    And we didnt get any of this , not in a way that could and should have been , the storys were boring and unintersting ,nothing unespected, with 50min of big nothing and 5 final minutes of resolution. And you all claim the episodes were good , wake up from your doctor who hypnosis!

    The best profe of that is that there arent any intersting things left in the show,the m smith era was ended in a series of poor resolutions, leaving the show without any more intrigues (expect maybe river beeing tasha) , and that theory about beeing two doctors is ridicillious , if this were true it would be shown before m smits left. So nothing left to think about until 8 season starts

    It is time to admit the truth and say, the specials were a total disaster! everyone claiming different  is either stupid or is too much adicted to this forum and affraid to admit this

    I absolutely loved this show until recently, now i dont care so much about it ,so this is my long long goodbye post to the series , as i will be doing and watching something more interesting from now on

    I hope my post is considered as a constructive critisism , as you all like to call people trolls and other names when someone writes something you dont like. As everyone is writting positive things its time for someone to bring some balance to the debate , as it is clear that the episodes were not so brilliant at least.  Cheers

    #23609
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    Oh dear @d12345, the time has come to reveal yourself as a little dullard again has it?

    #23610
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @d12345

    Your critical insights are astonishing; ‘boring and unintersting’. Why didn’t I think of that? Yes, of course. The Time of the Doctor as an existential meditation on the nature of old age and approaching death. ’50min of big nothing and 5 final minutes of resolution’ indeed. Deeply, deeply profound.

    I await your blog post – The Time of The Doctor and Waiting For Godot: ‘Waiting For Daleks’ – with interest.

    #23611
    Anonymous @

    @d12345 — leaving aside the lack of proper spelling, grammar or indeed coherent logic, I think it’s unlikely that your ‘post’ will be considered ‘constructive criticism’. You need to have offered at least one constructive point for that to be the case, I would have thought….

    #23612
    Timeloop @timeloop

    Hey guys,

    many things have been already said. that’s what happens if you take your time.

    Let’s see if I can add some new aspects:

    According to the last episode we saw the Doctor was absolutely bluffing in Nightmare in Silver. He could have not got rid of Mr. Clever. (Maybe that is what he kept hidden together with Hurt) with a regeneration.

    Re- naked in the church. This does make perfect sense to me. Vanity is a sin and any cloths you might be wearing would set you apart. And everybody is the same so you go naked to church? Though I do not like religion getting mixed up in TV-shows for children.

    Re- lying. He could have just talked about any plan he had. Like the plan to talk to Clara next.  He was not very specific and that is the way out. Otherwise he could use the TARDIS as a psychic connection to make the recipient hear what he want to hear. There are only a handful of people in Christmas.

    @geoffers That’s how I got here in the first place. He is talking about his space ship, the TARDIS.

    I loved that they used music from the Rings of Akhaten. This speech really sums up what the Doctor is. My money is on 12 with amnesia. But Moffat kinda did that in a special leading up to the Day of the Doctor. Where 11 forgets his life and has his diary to fresh up his memory?

    @d12345 Not every episode has to appeal to you, you know. Don’t spoil it for those who loved it. Try to respect/tolerate their opinions as they do yours . It is not one of my favorites but I can understand why they could love it like @purofilion . I loved the Day of the Doctor like that. Feel free to move on to things that appeal more to you. You should not spend time on things you don’t really like in general. Otherwise feel free to take part again.

    In fact, I might have enjoyed it less because I got a bit too spoilt in Spoilers. I saw a Dalek picture of Lem and was waiting for it to happen. I wish big spoilers could be hidden in a fold out. Because most stuff in Spoilers is quite okay to look at.

    @juniperfish You remembered me of a different conversation we had¬† here on the forum before. That fans just fill the gaps with stuff that was not intended to be there to start with. I don’t mean that in a bad way, it just made me smile. Your post was very well thought out.

    The shock-wave of the regeneration reminded me of a bomb. The center of the “explosion” must have been 3-4 meters in diameter.

    Cheers,

     

    Timeloop

     

    @phaseshift @bluesqueakpip @jimthefish Isn’t “boring and unintersting” an opinion? Not very elaborate, but still. You cannot always explain it. I think he/she might have prefered explosions and stunts.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 1 month ago by  Timeloop.
    #23614
    nicelyuseless @nicelyuseless

    @timeloop I love your explanation for being naked in church. That makes perfect sense.

    @d12345 The Specials are brilliant, and I’m so glad they reunited. Terry Hall is a genius. So is M Smith, and Brix for that matter.

    Sorry. Somebody had to say it.

    #23615
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    ‘And there’s me arm-wrestling a Draconian. I remember that…’

    ‘The Dalek inside me is waking.’

    ‘The relevant afterlives have been notified.’

    #23616
    Anonymous @

    @timeloop

    Isn’t “boring and unintersting” an opinion?

    Certainly, but the person making said point is really going to have to qualify it with some detailed argument. Especially if they’re going to be needlessly confrontational with it.

    @nicelyuseless — welcome, and you have just made what has to be one of my favourite comments over the festive period… ūüôā

    #23617
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    LINDA: You could make a boy band out of my list.
    CLARA: I hate boy bands.
    LINDA: Of course you don’t, not at your age.
    GRAN: These crackers are rubbish.
    LINDA: I bought them.
    GRAN: I know.
    LINDA: They’re classy.
    GRAN: They don’t have jokes.
    LINDA: Exactly.
    GRAN: They’ve got poems.
    LINDA: They’re more dramatic crackers.
    GRAN: I like the jokes.

    #23618
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @wolfweed To the point: ?

    @jimthefish I guess you have a point.

    @nicelyuseless I am glad you like it. Oh, and welcome.

    #23619
    nicelyuseless @nicelyuseless

    @jimthefish Thank you, I appreciate that.

    #23620
    Cath Annabel @cathannabel

    @wolfweed has reminded me – anyone got any thoughts on Eric D Ritchie – Thoughts on a Clock?¬† I’d assume it’s just random except that there was no need to identify the author/source for a poem in a cracker, unless it was in some way significant.

    #23621
    wolfweed @wolfweed
    #23623
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    z
    DOCTOR: Were you always so young?
    CLARA: Nah, that was you.

    #23624
    Cath Annabel @cathannabel

    @wolfweed ah, but this is still all within Who world, did Eric Ritchie Jr (don’t know where I got the D from) have a reality outside Who?

    #23625
    FiveRoundsRapid @fiveroundsrapid

    @d12345

    Oh Dear Oh Dear Oh Dear

    Crossing genres a little bit here, but as The Joker so succinctly put it… “Why so serious?”

    I might not have followed this up except for the comment about Moffat’s writing being “lazy and unmotivated”!! It’s become far too easy to criticise what Steven Moffat has done on the show these last few years, and we’re starting to see this simplified and overused Moff-bashing used more and more as an easy way to have a cheap dig at the show without really having to qualify your arguments! I’m thinking of putting a blog post together soon on this very topic…

    If you want to call Moffat’s writing “lazy and unmotivated” then at least furnish us with some reasons why, otherwise it just comes across tired and unsubstantial, and makes it harder to take any of your other points seriously!

    If you didn’t like the last two specials then that’s a shame, there are plenty of us out there who did. If you’re moving away from the show on to pastures new, again this is a shame, but I’d have to question how much of a fan of the show you really are because the true fans are those that stick it out to the bitter end, through the good and the bad! And it’s worth remembering – it is just a TV show!

    Hold on a sec…

    “It is time to admit the truth and say, the specials were a total disaster! everyone claiming different is either stupid or is too much adicted to this forum and affraid to admit this”

    Sorry, but that’s just plain rude and kind of debases the rest of your post!! I loved both of the specials unequivocally, and being new to this forum means I haven’t had chance to become addicted to it yet! So¬†I guess that makes me one of the “stupid” ones!!

    Happy New Year!!

    #23627
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    @cathannabel – I think that there’s a lot of them on Facebook now, but I’m guessing the poet ER jr doesn’t exist in our Universe.
    Only guessing, though…
    z

     

     

    ERJ = European Rubber Journal?!?

    z

    #23628
    RocknRollGhost @rocknrollghost

    Hi there – first post. I just watched the episode this morning and enjoyed it despite being a bit perplexed at what was happening at times. I’ve gotten used to rules changing on a whim and things being wrapped up in very easy/odd ways…so the fact that Moffat made up a way to continue the series ad infinitum well that’s fine by me.

    What remains is this great flurry of spellbinding action and unique inventions of a fantasy world and of course, the joy that came from everything Matt Smith did and said throughout his tenure as the Doctor. And Clara, sweet Clara…glad that one will still be around. ¬†It was fantastic to see Amy back again, even if just a moment.

    Looking forward to a string of new shows with Mr. Capaldi to see just how he’s going to be in the role.

    FWIW – my favorite Doctor is Christopher Eccleston. I still wish he had done more than one season.

    #23630
    Tennantmarsters2013 @tennantmarsters2013

    @fiveroundsrapid

     

    I completely agree with you I’m sick of people branding moffats writing as lazy and not having any specific reason other than they didn’t like the episodes. If you didn’t like them then just say and don’t blame it on him.

     

    also @d12345 tell me if Moffat hadn’t addressed all of the unanswered questions and tied all the loose strings up would you have a different opinion?

     

    he is like marmite you either love him or hate him

    #23632
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @fiveroundsrapid

    Hi, I meant to reply to you about the post you linked to regarding improving/changing Doctor Who (thanks for the link). I was going to suggest something along those lines for after the new year. Start with a blank slate and do a thread about speculation/hopes for the next series. How it may differ from Matt Smith’s tenure, what people want retained, etc. Didn’t seem much point in starting it too early. We have a lot of time to kill! ūüėÄ

    #23634
    FiveRoundsRapid @fiveroundsrapid

    @phaseshift

    Sounds like a plan!! I was going to suggest something like that myself but didn’t want you all to think I was getting ideas above my station ūüėČ

    I’ve got a few ideas on how Moffat might want to run with it but I’ll save those for the new thread!!

    #23635
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    z z

    #23639
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @phaseshift¬† re “brilliant and bonkers” <laughs fishily> ūüôā Well, we have to live up to our by-line, right?

    @Purofilion and @scaryb glad you enjoyed it!

    What some of our dear¬†participants seem to be missing, is that fan speculation is a form of play. And play is such an important part of being fully alive, whatever age you are. The Doctor would heartily agree, I’m sure.

    Play is an activity undertaken in the spirit of joyous, participatory fun.

    Do I think Moffat sat down to ensure that Tasha Lem was an anagram of “Mels Ta ha” and that he had River and¬†Sura 20 of the Qu’ran in mind when he did so? I really don’t know! Probably not?! Maybe?! Who knows?!

    Speculation (literary criticism) provides new and interesting ways of looking at the text which aim to enhance its interest even more for others. It is not simply about “being right” at deciphering the “one true meaning” intended by the author.

    On the subject of Moffat’s merits and demerits¬†as a writer and show-runner of Doctor Who, a whole thread could be created.¬†We certainly should create it! Perhaps when he finally hands over the reins.

    @d12345 I think you are incorrect that this is a corner of the Whoniverse which uncritically worships at the church of Moffat.

    I’ve already expressed my distaste for¬†his¬†sexist¬†“hell in high heels” brand of humour and¬†my disappointment that¬†the Clara dynamic has turned into an awkward flirtation in previous posts.

    I also think its pretty damning that there have been no Dr. Who scripts written by women for the last six years. We’ve also previously¬†discussed this on the site.

    On the other hand, I have really enjoyed Moffat’s interest in time – fixed points, loops, causality, the multi-verse.

    The play with visual themes such as watery portals, bow-ties and dopplegangers from the Eleventh Hour to The Time of the Doctor has also been lovely (in my view) and has had narrative pay-off. Gallifrey is in a bubble universe through the looking glass/ a watery portal and there are two versions of the Eleventh Doctor Рone heir to the War Doctor who used the Moment and one heir to the War Doctor who did not.

    Some of¬†Moffat’s themes such as the Egyptology one running through S7 could indeed stand to be more dramatically coherent and “surface evident”, but, on the other hand, one of the things Moffat has done well is to create texts which have generated “buzz” i.e. acres of intense internet speculation, thanks to the “puzzle Who” he’s created. Really, a good piece of fiction shouldn’t contain all the answers. It should always leave room for the audience to play.

    Does Hamlet really see the ghost of his father or is it all in his head?

    Is the governess in Henry James’¬†Turn of the Screw¬†acting out a deep psychological disturbance or¬†not?

    I hope Moffat develops both his¬†ability to weave long-running visual thematics and his obvious delight in horror/ mystery as we head into the Capaldi era. Personally I’d like to see¬†less bottom¬†slapping, sonic erection¬†and¬† “need a manual to work out a woman” gags.

    #23640
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    Just some additional thoughts on the Tasha Lem / River Song connection.

    The actress who plays Tasha, Orla Brady, said in a pre-air BBC interview that she meant to ask Moffat if her name was a reference to the writer Stanislaw Lem, the famous Polish sci-fi author who wrote Solaris.

    In that most famous of his works, a sentient planet recreates a dead man’s wife who killed herself¬†(just as River did to save the Doctor in the Library). The actress who plays the wife character in the most recent movie version (Soderbergh 2002) is Natascha McElhone (Tasha).

    I wonder if the Time Lords created Tasha Lem.

    #23641
    RocknRollGhost @rocknrollghost

    @juniperfish – wow! intriguing idea. ¬† Unrelated – I’ve been itching to revisit Soderbergh’s Solaris – I always loved how he managed to take the original film and make a completely unique, yet still intellectually and emotionally involving, reinterpretation.

    #23642
    rmifaabsbb @rmifaabsbb

    i was thinking about the 50th special and how 13th appeared but 12th(11th) still thought he was the last one and this is the explenation i satisfied my confusion with: just like the previous doctors forgot about everything connected to this, by the “laws” of time they were not allowed to remember anything connected to their future selves, matt forgot the 13th too. The reason he still turned up was that 1) 13th noticed that the calculations still were not done in his time and deducted that he had appeared during the whole thing but matt forgot about it 2) when the time came the “laws” didn’t apply anymore and he remembered everything and knew what to do 3) moffet ducked up

    #23643
    Scatamonky @scatamonky

    Here’s one:

    The Doctor had already been to Trenzalore…….so how did he not recognise it when he arrived there the second time?

    Shouldn’t the UPS (Universal Positioning System) on the TARDIS still have it saved in its memory?

    #23644
    d12345 @d12345

    i will have to repeat myself , i see many of you dont understand

    I remember when we all debated before the 50th special , how many brilliant and mind blowing theories were written , how many interesting things were possible , j. hurts indentity,time war action we never seen before,companions from the past,m smith not beeing able to regenerate any more,great inteligence,the silence,zygon enemys having somekind of master evil plan,we all expected river songs mystery to be solved with the end of matt smith era,trenzelore was suposed to be somekind of mindblowing timey wimey

    Before the two specials , the show was at its high , as moffat has created a situation with many interesting unresolved questions that i wrote above . The problem was the answers to those questions provided by moffat , he made a brilliant situation before the 50th , and then ruined it by boring and uninteresting solutions .He could have made miracles with hurt ,time war and last regeneration , and he didnt do it . the day of the doctor was a total disaster , becouse the situation demanded more intriguing unexpected stuff related to hurt , time war ,trenzelore,last regeneration.you all have to admit that there were many many more interesting writting solutions to tdod

    the cristmas special was a victim of tdtd , becouse of the related plot , althought it was better becouse of the cristmas spirit powerfull human emotions,but still lacking action,when i say action i dont mean explosions , i mean an interesting plot going on for at least 40min , it was reverse 40min boring and then 10min of finale.

    if this isnt a proper explanation why i didnt like it, then i dont know,i have written this all above but you either dont understand,or didn read the whole post , or are just hostile to any negative comments

    and matt smith was pulling the show forward with his carizma and brilliant interpretacion of an crazy old man in a young body,his humor has saved a lot of uninspired episodes recently

    #23645
    d12345 @d12345

    http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/members/jimthefish/   http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/members/bluesqueakpip/

    http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/members/phaseshift/

    i hope you understand now

    #23647
    Anonymous @

    @scaryb

    I am as always mightily impressed with your ability to identify bits of music

    That’s very kind of you to say but I’m afraid you’ll be a little less impressed as I made a bit of a boo-boo.

    @doctorwhybother – the second piece of music wasn’t ‘The Doctor’s Theme’, it was ‘You’re Fired/Flying Home For Christmas’ from ‘The Doctor, The Widow and The Wardrobe’ ūüė≥

    As punishment, I’m listening to all the soundtrack albums again in order to improve my powers of musical identification. I may be gone some time (approx. 16 hours) ūüėČ

    #23649
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @rmifaabsbb
    I think that’s a good, entirely possible solution.

    3)’s always possible, but Moffat’s said in an interview that he planned for the new Doctor to appear. That suggests he’s sketched something out that explains why he must appear at Gallifrey; we can now guess, after all, that there may be as many as twenty-five Doctors floating about the universe.

    #23650
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @juniperfish

    That’s a lovely idea that Lem is a tribute to Stanislaw Lem. I really hope we see more of Tasha (big fan of Orla Brady). Created by the TimeLords, huh?¬† Interesting, but comes up against the same problem as my “she is a Time Lord” theory – if that’s the case then why couldn’t she call to the TLs thro the crack – her voice would carry as much weight as Clara’s you’d’ve thought. Or is it only Clara who would think to appeal directly to them?¬† I also like @bluesqueakpip‘s idea that she might have been the model when the Kovarian Chapter were hatching their River plot.

    Speaking of casting, one of those little Who coincidences – Clara’s gran is played by Sheila Reid, who also had a part in Vengeance on Varos.¬†

    @fatmaninabox – I’m even more impressed, but enjoy your penance ūüėČ

    @d12345 It’s OK, we understand that you didn’t like the last 2 shows.¬† That’s fine, it’s your opinion, it’s respected on here; but please don’t disrespect others by saying everyone who disagrees with you is stupid.

    @nicelyuseless – fell off the sofa (again!) at your Specials comment. They were tho ūüėČ

    And just to reiterate @juniperfish‘s point – speculation is FUN.¬† Long may we continue to live up to our motto.

    #23651
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @Scatamonkey

    The Doctor had already been to Trenzalore…….so how did he not recognise it when he arrived there the second time?

    It was shielded, remember, by the Papal Mainframe – intergalactic security team (“keeping you safe in this world… and the next”) who arrived first. Presumably that shielding included its GPS co-ordinates. The Doctor obv had his suspicions when he insisted on knowing what it was called.

    #23654
    geoffers @geoffers

    @timeloop – ah, thank you. i thought he was saying “that’s how i got HER in the first place.” meaning the tardis, yes, but with a different stress. there were a couple of other bits of dialogue that it took me some effort to decipher (as usual). and i’m going to avoid spoilers in the future, as well. the tasha-as-dalek pic gave away way too much for my liking, too…

    @d12345 – wow. i’m sorry your experience over the latter part of matt’s run has been so abysmal. it’s been a wonderful crutch for me, in many ways. this made-up universe of time lords and time machines has helped get me through some tough days here in the real world…

    having said that, i believe the spirit of this forum is one of loving criticism and debate (and help in understanding, in general), and the reason i chose to begin posting here, after a few months of lurking, is simply that.¬†“i hate this” and “this just sucks” are too easy. if you can’t find any reason to love it, then your decision to quit watching is understandable, and appreciated. but, if i’m not mistaken, @craig can point you towards another blog where everybody there posts only the things they hate, and all the ways that moffat is horrible. you might find discourse easier there…

    as for me, i disagree with you. i’m not putting any onus of literary genius on the writer(s) of the show… it’s a kid’s science-fiction show. it may seem to aspire to be shakespeare or tolstoy, at times, but i don’t see it that way. it’s good, fun entertainment, of a specific genre, that draws from many other genres (sometimes to the dismay of some)… but it’s still just a tv show. and there’s much more that goes into being a good tv show than just the writing…

    what tv show are you the showrunner for, again? i didn’t catch your credentials when you came in. maybe we can start a blog about it?!

    ūüôā

    sorry to everyone else here. it’s just that i learned from @htpbdet that there’s a loving way to criticise your favourite show, without giving up on it in the process, after reading his blog about the doctor who tv movie (i hate the eric roberts “terminator” master, too)…

    cheers!

    #23655
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @geoffers Yes @htpbdet took the long view and his loving critique was definitely an inspiration. Let’s toast him for the New Year!

    @scaryb Ah ha – well my theory is that perhaps the Doctor’s Mother (whom we saw in The End of Time) and a coterie of Time Lords sympathetic to the Doctor somehow created Tasha Lem.

    Not all Time Lords agreed with the methods the Time Lords¬†came to resort¬†to in the Time War – not all of them voted for Rassilon’s¬†final solution.¬†We saw the Doctor’s Mum weeping then.

    Perhaps the Tasha Lem Mother Superior was created as a check and balance to ensure the Time Lords couldn’t so easily swan back into the universe and restart the war.

    Obviously, the Silence went rogue under Kovarian, invaded the earth and tried to kill the Doctor. Oops.

    But, maybe the Doctor’s Mum¬†had a hand in the creation of River (through Kovarian) and foresaw in the time-lines that River and the Doctor would fall for one¬†another. Perhaps¬†she wanted to give that gift to her son.

    Kovarian seemed familiar with Time Lord tech. She knew that a child conceived on the Doctor’s TARDIS would be part Time-Lord and she clearly possessed some form of time travel (she sent River back to Lake Silencio in her assassin astronaut suit at the “right time”).

    The time travel ability could have been acquired from the Time War daleks or traded with Dorium Maldovar via contraband Time Agency tech, but Tasha Lem can fly the Doctor’s TARDIS, which previously was a surprising ability of River’s only…

    Yes, I’m liking¬†the¬†possibility of a¬†Tasha Lem/ Time Lord connection…

    #23656
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    Ah, @d12345 my old friend. ūüėÄ Welcome back, or should that be goodbye? I hope not.

    I’m sorry you didn’t like it, or the 50th. Me, I thought the 50th was, with a few caveats, great, but I thought the Christmas episode had some problems. If you read my post about it you’ll see I had several issues with it. But I still enjoyed it.

    Everything must come to an end, even plot strands. I think it’s good that Capaldi’s Doctor starts with a reasonably clean slate (though the cracks in the Universe, Gallifrey and the Time Lords still exist). We are left with little to ponder over until Autumn. But that isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Everything has an end, Clara, even bonkers theories.

    But, as ScaryB says, just because someone doesn’t agree with you doesn’t mean they’re stupid. I’ve always encouraged you to participate, as I do everyone else. But just be as civil and polite as you would be to someone in real life. It’s only a small ask. ūüėČ

    #23659
    Risdat @risdat

    I personally liked the specials. Maybe there were some debatable issues, but I always try to look at the things I do like in an episode because storywriters in general can not satisfy the needs of all viewers. This means you will be disappointed sometimes, just deal with it and continue I would say.

    Furthermore this is my first post here,  so hi to all and I hope disscuss this awesome show with you in the future!

    Gr Risdat

    #23661
    Anonymous @

    @d12345–

    But saying ‘it was boring, it was boring’ isn’t articulating any kind of compelling argument. You need to provide a bit more detail than that. What actually aspects of the plot didn’t work for you? Were there any that did? That sort of thing. At the moment, it seems to me that your main beef with the Specials is that they didn’t completely follow the direction that you’d mapped out in your imagination at the end of NotD. But this is true for most of us, I’d imagine but that’s just too bad. At the moment, this is Moffat’s baby, not ours.

    As it stands, your posts really are just bog-standard Moffat-hating and couching them in ad homs against the rest of the forum doesn’t really help your case either. You want us to consider your views and yet you insult us while you do so. Do you really think that’s going to work?

    And a look at the contributions of @juniperfish and @craig and others on this thread alone will show that we’re not blind Moffat-adorers on this site. (But you’ll also notice that these contributions contain considered and detailed reasons for their reservations.) And a look at the past comments by myself and I’d imagine most other regular contributors will show that we don’t blindly love all things Moffat — there’s plenty of criticism in there as well as praise for the much that he gets right.

    I’m sorry that you didn’t enjoy the last couple of stories. That’s fair enough and I’m sure everyone thinks that’s fair enough. But lose the ad homs and keep it civil, eh?

    #23663
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    Ooooh. Look what I found.

    #23666
    d12345 @d12345

    as i was writting that long post yesterday , i got carried away towards the end , i see now i might have been rude with saying someone is stupid . My apologies , got carried away too much.i see that now

    http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/members/craig/ i dont know where is the monkey on my laptop , hard to belive but.. so i have to do it like this , craig my old buddy,i did see that you were maybe the only one who wrote some critisism about the last episode, i wanted to write this last night but i forgot.  it is nice to see at least someone having a different opinion

    http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/members/jimthefish/  http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/members/bluesqueakpip/

    i don know why are you convinced that i am all about hating moffat , that is not true , i said here many times that i think seasons 5,6 were masterpieces, and moffat is a brilliant writter no question about it (sherlock too) . my problem is that moffat created a fantastic situation before the 50th , and then when i saw the episodes i was absolutely dissapointed

    j hurt – with the doctor trapped at trenzelore , the mysterios hurt doctor appeared . it would be far better if hurt was the zero doctor , or the last(future) regeneration , or valyear, or somekind of unknown evil incarnacion of the doctor, or .. the 8-9 solution was the worst solution for me , since his figure was the most important thing of the 50th , i think a more complicated solution for his entity was needed

    time war- the 50th was supposed to be about the time war,the famous time war that we heard so much about , and didnt know nothing about . this is my main problem, why did moffat forse the time war story , and then not do so much about it. it was supposed to be at least 15-20min of daleks with their plan against the multi doctors and their plan , a little bit of fighting ,explosions, and some interesting evil villans plan ,and then the doctors find a solution of the problem in somekind of mindblowing scenario. that kind of story would work for me. or that hurt is playing an evil doctor(or just has a different opinion how the war should end) and is fighting against tenant and smiths doctors  ,that would have been also a good solution.moffats solution for the time war was far from this,the war was hardy mentioned,except the last 5min red button.the plot of the story was ruined by tenants totally unrelevated zygon story,and the time war didnt get the time we all wanted , becouse this was a huge thing for the show and ,i think the time war sould have had a better story plot

    trenzelore- this was the doctors grave,or a crazy time loop of somekind ,or somekind of a crazy timey wimey thing ,the souls of all doctors in one place,or…in the end of the story ¬†trenzelore dissapeared in the beggining of the 50th?? and then appeared at cristmas as a town or a planet?? alternative futures scenario. didnt like it

    river song- it would be fair that her question was resolved before m smits left, she has been around for a long time, and to go on with her story with capaldi is for me too much.or even worse that this question  would never be answered. moffat himself again forsed her presence all the time,and then didnt do nothing about it , or will do something about it but in a wrong timing.it would be nice that in cristmas spec or in the 50th , that rose is river or tasha is river or clara is river ,since she is a time lord

    regeneration limit – the most important thing in the series, and it deserved a lot more time and intrique about it.this is the thing moffat was not forsing,but he just had to deal with this question.he could have made that capaldi is the last one(somehow) , or if he went in the direction that smith is the last one,then he had to devote a lot of time explaining a new set of regenerations,and he had to make the plot of the story related to this important solution.moffats solution trought the light in the sky(cracks) was far to simple and uniteresting and expected and lasted for 2min of the whole episode

    other problems that i had with the last two episodes are that the story was going on way way too slow, as if the writters didnt know what to do and were just jumping from one unrelated story to another , and the specials had to last at least 15-20min longer

    thats my opinion , 100 people 100 different opinions and personalities, a good thing the show stops for a long time,becouse if the show went on in the near future i woundnt watch it . after a long break i will look at a few first episodes and then see if the show is worth to keep watching or not.

    again sorry for my grammar and spelling,it is how it is . cheers

    #23669
    OsakaHatter @osakahatter

    Hello all, hope you had a lovely Christmas.

    Having spent most of the year disappointed with the limited amount of ‘Who on TV, I’ve ended the year feeling rather spoiled.¬† That was a lovely end to Matt Smith’s tenure and he really is leaving me wanting more.¬† Personally, I think the consistency and quality of the last 3 years have set a high watermark that we’ll be harking back to for years.

    There seems to have been something about this years episodes that really get under the skin – almost haunting in some cases.¬† Rings for example was an episode that I enjoyed but didn’t rave about after the first viewing, yet it’s the episode I’ve rewatched more than any other from series 7b and have loved more with each viewing.¬† I think when the worst criticism that can be fielded at most of this years run is that there wasn’t enough time to fully explore all the ideas and concepts crammed within an episode, we are lucky indeed.

    That seems especially true of the ToTD.¬† At the end of the episode – as others have mentioned – it almost felt as if not much had happened, but had not happened in a lovely way.¬† And then I started thinking about what had happened and there was a lot of ground covered.¬† I think the elements with Clara’s family perhaps suffered from a lack of space and jarred slightly with the rest of the episode, but also rounded out her character well I thought.¬† I finally feel that we’re getting to know Clara, rather than trying to unravel a mystery but still think her family will be explored more in the future – introducing them here was the first shoots of a new thread I suspect.¬† I’m going for Gran as an aged chameleon-arched Susan.¬† Because I can’t let go of a good theory ūüėČ

    I was a little surprised that I was not moved more on first viewing – I guess after The End of Time, I was steeled for the emotional wringer but it had greater subtlety this time around.¬† Amelia and Amy appearing of course, and that bowtie hitting the floor got me.¬† But on my subsequent view, it was D11 and Clara’s last moments together as she read the poem and he thanked his impossible girl that really choked me – again, it was emphasizing Clara as a valued companion and friend, rather than a puzzle.¬† And the Doctor was not alone at the end.

    Time was the only thing that could do for the Doctor come the end.¬† Utterly appropriate, the one thing the TimeLord cannot fight.¬† No enemy could ever fire that shot, no fall from a tower would have felt as anything other than a convenient device.¬† I loved the nods to Hartnell in Matt Smith’s aging make up – one day, he will return indeed.¬† I also loved the attempt at one last grandstanding speech, that he didn’t quite have the strength for – and ended up all the more powerful as a consequence.¬† Talked for a while, something happened, he got the credit… just as he said he would!

    I’ll admit to having concerns beforehand about solving the regeneration issue by granting another cycle, mainly because it’s kicking the issue down the road.¬† But it makes sense in universe, and made perfect sense for the TimeLords to keep their man on the outside going.¬† And frankly, by the time it becomes an issue again, I’ll be needing my own new cycle.

    I thought Orla Brady was fantastic, but Tasha Lem suffered from a lack of background.¬†¬† I do wonder if that was deliberate to give us something to ponder over the next few months.¬† Tasha to River, River to Clara, genuine connections or just teases?¬† Steven Moffat said at the ExCel Celebration that he thought River’s story was done. Of course, SM lies but I think on this occasion there was a truth there – I’m guessing we won’t be seeing Alex Kingston again. Expanding her story through other characters though?¬† I wouldn’t put that past him.

    While I’m on Steven Moffat ExCel quotes, he said something along the lines of that there is only one reason the show has broken America, that it was able to do a global simulcast, that it has never been more loved or profitable – and that reason is Matt Smith.¬† Which seems as good a way as any of rounding off and saying thanks Matt, it’s been a blast.¬† And you’re threatening McCoy for my number one spot.

    #23672
    FiveRoundsRapid @fiveroundsrapid

    Just stumble across some more Moff-bashing…

    http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/12/the-captain-kirk-problem-how-em-doctor-who-em-betrayed-matt-smith/282690/

    Nothing we haven’t seen before but does score points for quoting The Wrath of Khan ūüôā

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